Let me say something nice about religion, for once.

Quote: vert1276

.But if you feel the need to criticize the mistakes of the Catholic church 800 years ago....have at it bro...whatever floats your boat!

'Mistakes'? Do you see the Church giving any of that property
back to the rightful descendants? And they know who they are,
they kept very good records, even 800 years ago. The Church
is very much a business today, they are extremely wealthy, if
you add up all the property and stolen treasure thats squirrled
away in the Vatican. Here's what makes for a successful business:

1. First and foremost, find an existing demand and/or create a demand
2. Be one of the major suppliers of a product in demand (limit or eliminate competition)
3. Convince people they need your product – something good will happen if they have it
4. Convince people that if they do not have your product that something bad will happen
5. Insure a healthy profit margin - revenue exceeds expenses
6. Create a product that produces a continuous stream of profits with numerous repeat customers
7. Have a marketing plan to increase sales
8. Employ an effective sales force that is effective and has responses prepared for anticipated objections
9. Limit overhead costs
10.Build an infrastructure that will continue the business far into the future
11.Have powerful, persuasive, enthusiastic, credible, dynamic leadership

This describes the Catholic Church perfectly. It has a centuries old business model
that continues to this day. Of course the consumers of their product, the suckers,
don't want to hear it. The Church is all about power, as are all religions. Power over
the people in their congregation, so they can be shaken down for as much money
as possible. Of course you don't see that, you're one of the shaken.

Quote: vert1276

LMAO....dude welcome to the 21 century.....I'm not defending the church of the 12th century.....I'm saying the CURRENT Catholic church is not a "business" in anyway shape or form......But if you feel the need to criticize the mistakes of the Catholic church 800 years ago....have at it bro...whatever floats your boat!

Forget 800 years ago. How about the protection of pedophiles and declaring a parish bankrupt so as to avoid paying the innocent !!

Quote: Tiltpoul

Actually, Wizard, you should consider watching a few episodes of South Park. They pretty much nail every religion to a proverbial cross. Catholics, Jews, Muslims, Cultish religions (like Scientology), they go after them all. I can post a list of recommended episodes if interested.

I would indeed be interested, thank you.

Quote: vert1276

After the “Consecration”, it is believed that through the invocation of the Holy Spirit; the bread and wine are transformed into the Flesh and Blood of Jesus Christ. Not visibly seen, but disguised as bread and wine. The Body and Blood of Jesus Christ is then offered to God His Father for the sins of men. Then, under the direction of Jesus Christ as recorded in the Gospels, the Body and Blood hidden and disguised as bread and wine, is consumed.

This sounds a lot like the bread and wine represent the body and blood in a figurative sense. The body and blood are "disguised" as bread and wine?! Would you be happy if you found out I slipped some human flesh into your hamburger, disguising it as animal flesh? I would think not. Yet, I'm sure you willingly accept communion. Can you explain the difference to me?

Quote: DJTeddyBear

The Wiz' apparent shock at my statement gave me reason to doubt myself. So I went and took a few pictures.

Thanks! Good work there DJ. What do you say about that vert?

Not surprised at the signs, what the nuns always told us kids. That and the Catholic Mass will always be spoken in Latin LOL
But the 2 years of Latin I had to take at St. Joe's helps me today understand the base of words I see for the first time.

Quote: buzzpaff

But the 2 years of Latin I had to take at St. Joe's helps me today understand the base of words I see for the first time.

Then you might enjoy the discussion in the Spanish Word of the Day thread.

Quote: Wizard

I would indeed be interested, thank you.

All about Mormons" South Park


Notwithstanding the fictional Roman on Big Love Mormons are pretty hard working non-malicious people. With the exception of young girls roped into polygamist marriages, there are not too many stories about evil Mormons. I understand that Vegas casinos love having them as employees, given the amount of their work force who comes to work stoned or drunk.

Quote:

Evolution does not answer even close to the answer "if we came from apes, why do we still have apes?" You don't mate two fish and a dog comes out one day. The pat answer of "mutations" doesn't fly since at least half of "mutations" would be bad for the species. On this count, I will scold religion for recoiling at science when science stops recoiling at the idea of there being a God and that creating the universe. (Or when someone explains where matter came from since you cannot create nor destroy matter.)

Evolution and the research around it claims that apes and men came from the same common ancestor.

Evolution doesn't claim that two fish mate and make a dog.

Mutations that are unhealthy don't survive, but one's that are healthy and helpful do. Doesn't even need to be 50/50. Recombination of Genes via parents and the "gene flow" also tends to add to the evolutionary drift.

Evolution isn't really the "survival of the fittest" either. It's just the survival of the "fit enough". Things that survive to breed and pass on their genes have "won" those that don't "lose".

Evolution states nothing about abogenesis (where did we come from, what created the initial life, matter and the universe).

And, before we go there, the old "half an eye is useless" type argument has been done to death as well.

Evolution has little to say about God and a creator of initial conditions, but the New Synthesis of Evolutionary Theory does explain a lot of natural history. In essence, I think both Evolution and a creator can be compatible ideas... as long as your creator is much more removed from the process than the 6 day, young earth creationist ideas.

I also think it's one of the most wonderful concepts and ideas man has come up with, not least as it's powerfully expressive, but also can explain other, non-natural systems.

Quote: Wizard

Then you might enjoy the discussion in the Spanish Word of the Day thread.

First Spanish phrase I remember hearing was in John Wayne movie The Searchers. Muy pronto Muchachos, Ondole Ondole.

Any chance you know the title of the spanish song the indian girls sang at the stage station just before the Vaqueros rode off
unexpectedly in STAGE COACH. Damn John Carradine was the perfect gentleman gambler portral in that film

Quote: buzzpaff

Ondole Ondole...

Can I trouble you to repost that in the SWotD thread? I think that comes from the word "andar," meaning "to walk," but why does it always seem to be used to rush people, i.e. to make the run. Anyway, don't answer here, let's try to keep this thread on topic.

Quote: Wizard

I would indeed be interested, thank you.

The list of must see South Park Episodes for Religious episodes (Not inclusive of ALL S.P. episodes that deal with religions... just the good ones):
1) All About Mormons (Season 7, Episode 12)
2) Go, God Go/Go, God XII (S10, E12-13)
3) Red Hot Catholic Love (S6, E8)
4) Christian Rock Hard (S7,E9) (Not necessarily best about religion, but this is my FAVORITE episode of all time)
5) Do the Handicapped Go to Hell?/Probably (S4, E9-10)
6) The Passion of the Jew (S8, E3) (More pertinent to the chaos around Passion of the Christ, but still good)
7) Trapped in the Closet (S9, E12)
8) Super Best Friends (S5, E3)

Again this list isn't inclusive, and if you like 7 and 8, there are a couple more that really go further into the topics.

Enjoy!

Quote: buzzpaff

Not surprised at the signs, what the nuns always told us kids. That and the Catholic Mass will always be spoken in Latin LOL

They kept it in Latin so the masses couldn't understand it. For
over a thousand years the Church refused to teach anybody to
read and write because they wanted everybody as ignorant as
possible. You lose your power and mysticism when everybody
in the congregation understands what your saying and has a
Bible they can read themselves. Takes all the fun out it for the
Church leaders.

Quote: Wizard

I know it sounds kind of goofy, but is is any sillier than the Ten Commandments story, Noah's Ark, Jonah and the Whale, and Jesus raising stinky dead people back to life? I find it significantly less goofy than bread and wine literally turning into meat and blood when I would be able to see and taste with my own eyes that it is still bread and wine.

It's all goofy, especially the part where the all loving God summons two female bears to murder 42 children for making fun of a bald guy. Totally not kidding!! Look it up: 2 Kings 2 23:24

Personally, I'd go with Freddie Mercury's religion, Zoroastrianism, if it wasn't so homophobic and hard to pronounce. I think I'll stick with knowing that there are things that I do not know and will never understand without having to invoke an invisible friend to explain it all away.

Quote: EvenBob

They kept it in Latin so the masses couldn't understand it. For
over a thousand years the Church refused to teach anybody to
read and write because they wanted everybody as ignorant as
possible. You lose your power and mysticism when everybody
in the congregation understands what your saying and has a
Bible they can read themselves. Takes all the fun out it for the
Church leaders.

I assume that thousand years did not include the 20th century in the USA. Come on BOb !

Quote: s2dbaker

Personally, I'd go with Freddie Mercury's religion, Zoroastrianism, if it wasn't so homophobic and hard to pronounce.

Anything to do with the Zoroaster Temple in the Grand Canyon, which is an extremely challenging and difficult climb?

At the risk of going off topic, I thought Freddy Mercury was a flamboyant homosexual. So the homophobic part surprises me. If you care to educate us on the basic tenets of the faith, I'm all ears. I like to know the basic of all faiths. However, let's make a separate thread for it, if you choose to reply.

Quote: buzzpaff

I assume that thousand years did not include the 20th century in the USA.

It started downhill for the Catholics when Martin Luther came along, and he started the Protestant Reformation.
He disputed the Catholics claim that freedom from God's punishment could be bought with money. With the Church, it was all about money. The invention of the printing press and the Bible being circulated everywhere didn't help them either. The Church had to eventually abandon all their strong arm tactics and blend in with the rest of society. They couldn't fool the people forever. Never ignore the history of any organization, its what made them what they are today. The pedophile thing died hard and is still dying. Its so ingrained in the hierarchy of the Church, so ancient, so much a part of who they are at their core, it will never go away entirely. We'll never know how many thousands of lives were ruined by these pious hypocrites over the centuries. I'm sure we'd be startled by the true number of innocent young boys that were defiled by the Catholic clergy, using God and Jesus as their cover.

I would say something nice about Scientology, but not sure if Science Fiction is actually a religion.

Quote: buzzpaff

I would say something nice about Scientology, but not sure if Science Fiction is actually a religion.

Theres a great epidode of Boston Legal where the attorney
gets a Scientologist on the stand and tears him a new butthole.
He made the guy look like he should be in a mental hospital.

Quote: EvenBob

Theres a great epidode of Boston Legal where the attorney
gets a Scientologist on the stand and tears him a new butthole.
He made the guy look like he should be in a mental hospital.

Lafayette must be spinning in his grave. That what the "L" stood for.

Drummond: The gospel!! The gospel according to Brady!! God speaks to Brady, and Brady tells the world world!! Brady!!! Brady!!! Brady, Almighty!!!

Brady: The Lord, the Lord is my strength --

Drummond: Suppose that a lesser human being -- suppose a Cates or a Darwin had the audacity to think that God might whisper to him? That an un-Brady thought might still be holy. Must a man go to prison because he differs with a self-appointed prophet?! Extend the Testaments! Let us have a book of Brady! We shall hex the Pentateuch and slip you in neatly between Numbers and Deuteronomy!!

Oh Wizard, of course you like Mormonism. You're a man! You might not like it so much if you were a 13 year old girl being forced to marry your uncle.

Quote: Tiltpoul

And they believe, 100%, that their main scripture (The Book of Mormon) was translated on golden plates found in a backyard in Rochester, NY. And when those translations were lost, they were "re-translated..."

ummm, Joseph Smith didn't FIND those golden plates in 1830. He buried them prior, then found them later. And they weren't lost. He destroyed them or reburied them to hide the evidence. And he proclaimed himself to be the translator of God's Word, and the only one pure enough to hear His Word, and the sheeple believed it. One of Smith's first demands of the people was that God himself told him to take a neighbor's teen daughter as his wife, and for that man to waive a large debt the Smith had with him.

And I'm surprised no one has mentioned the Magic Underwear they put on to protect them from evil. It's a full suit made of unbleached cotton that's worn day and night to remind them of their inner commitment to God. I think I remember a TMZ reporter asking Mitt about it couple years ago.

Quote: zippyboy

And I'm surprised no one has mentioned the Magic Underwear they put on to protect them from evil.

I understand the church makes a ton of money selling
the underwear and all the others things they require
from the brethren.

Quote: buzzpaff

Forget 800 years ago. How about the protection of pedophiles and declaring a parish bankrupt so as to avoid paying the innocent !!

Well I never defended the Catholic church for defending pedophiles did I? In fact in my first post on this thread I spoke out against it...and said it was horrible what the catholic church did....The church is made of men...man is not without flaw or sin.....

When it comes to a parish declaring bankruptcy......I guess I really dont see your point....are you implying that the bankruptcy judge who oversaw the bankruptcies of the parishes was somehow incompetent?....It's pretty simple really...so parishes were suited multiple times and were unable to pay all law suits and then declared bankruptcy in under the law of the land.....The judge looked at their assets and the treasury of the church.....and did his job...end of story....Well unless you think US bankruptcy law is flawed somehow?

Quote: pacomartin

All about Mormons" South Park

Just finished it -- that was indeed good. I'm ready for the next one!

Thanks! Good work there DJ. What do you say about that vert?

The person putting up those signs is uninformed and doesn't fully understand the doctrine of the religion they are practicing.....That is certainly not the official stance for the Roman Catholic church.......As I have already pointed out in the thread...backed by the Catechism of the Catholic Church.....If you want to judge all by the actions of a few you are clearly free to do so...

Quote: vert1276

That is certainly not the official stance for the Roman Catholic church..

Sure it is, and always has been. They used to KILL people trying
convert them, for crying out loud.

Wizard-Interesting post indeed. I am a practicing Christian/Catholic. This is a fairly long thread so I apologize if I am repeating any other comments as I haven't read them all.

1. Christianity is corrupted and flawed like all religions because mankind is flawed , so I personally don't think you are going to hell, remember that forgiveness is pretty central to our core beliefs. If man's understanding of God are in anyway accurate-your deeds, compassion & heart would be evident to God (however it could be that one bet you might hedge...)

2. You are getting caught up in the mechanics of ritual. Transubstantiation (wine to blood, host to flesh) was one of Luther's hangups too. Obviously people don't think it is physically altered but you need to remember that Jesus wasn't just in the physical form. You are consuming the spiritual blood and flesh of Christ.

3. I got to know a lot of Mormons when I lived in the Phoenix, AZ suburbs. They are a tricky bunch and are more inclined to place social restrictions on their community. Their Mission work is interesting and allows their youth to really broaden their exposure to different countries. What you have to think about though is they are out pitching their religion and are certainly spending a lot of time in nice neighborhoods looking for wealthy converts. The Mormons aren't out necessarily tending to the sick, hungry and poor on those Missions, they are proselytizing. By and large most of the Catholic Mission work (the biggest on earth) is focused on caring for the poor, espousing peace and defending human rights. Maybe mission work on the scale of the Roman Catholic Church is the end goal for the Mormons, but it certainly doesn't seem to be their focus in the US.

Quote: vert1276

Well I never defended the Catholic church for defending pedophiles did I? ....and said it was horrible what the catholic church did....The church is made of men...man is not without flaw or sin.....

Pedophiles. Sure they're disgusting, but at least they drive slowly through school zones.

Quote: EvenBob

Sure it is, and always has been. They used to KILL people trying
convert them, for crying out loud.

ok dude now I just feel Like I'm being trolled LOL.....You saying its the official stance doesn't make it so......I have CLEARLY pointed out in this thread that its not.....If you dont believe me I can only tell you to go to the Vatican's web site......search CATECHISM OF THE CATHOLIC CHURCH...search Part one, section two, chapter three, article 9, paragraph 3. It will all be explained to you.....If you want to go back about 5 pages in this thread it was laid out....You believe what you want.....But I'm pretty much done being trolled by ya K? bye bye now

"Kids, if you see an ad that says Cardinals looking for a bat boy, watch out, that has nothing to do with the baseball team." —Jay Leno

"This is the last Take Your Daughter to Work Day. Next year, boys will be involved too. I guess the Catholic Church lobbied pretty hard on that one." —Jay Leno

Quote: Wizard

Anything to do with the Zoroaster Temple in the Grand Canyon, which is an extremely challenging and difficult climb?

At the risk of going off topic, I thought Freddy Mercury was a flamboyant homosexal. So the homophobic part surprises me. If you care to educate us on the basic tenets of the faith, I'm all ears. I like to know the basic of all faiths. However, let's make a separate thread for it, if you choose to reply.

there are a lot of gay Catholics too.

The theme from 2001, A Space Odyssey is called Also Sprach Zarathustra. Zararhustra was the prophet of Zoroastroism. It once was the predominant religion of Persia and thereabouts. Mazda was all the rage. Even has a car company named after him.

I haven't posted anything here in a long time, but this thread got me going.

Wizard, for such a smart man, you come across a little dumb when it comes to discussing religions. It is immediately apparent that you have not done any serious research on the dogmas of any of them, and are making judgements based on outward appearances and hearsay rather than the individual beliefs of each and how they differ.

To say that the Latter Day Saints are better than other religions because they go door-to-door to recruit members or because the ones you know seem to be nice people, is like saying Hondas are better than Fords because their logo is fancier, or that Geico has better rates than Allstate because their commercials are funnier, or, to put it in terms that are most familiar to you, that blackjack games at Bellagio must be better than the ones at New York New York because their carpet is prettier and their dealers wear nicer outfits.

To use a word like "meat" when referring to the symbolic body of Christ is not only offensive, but also ignorant, and to equate the talking of Communion (which, by the way, is practiced in churches other than Roman Catholic) with cannibalism is simply ridiculous. The practice of Communion is not something that was made up by any one religion anyway, but was Jesus' idea, when He said at the Last Supper, "Do this in remembrance of me."

As for the "converts" at a Billy Graham revival, going to the front of the church when an invitation is offered does not have anything to do with joining any particular church or coverting from one religion to another. It is done merely to show that you are feeling the Holy Spirit within you and are publicly showing your repentance and acceptance of Jesus Christ as your personal Savior.

What is bankrupt is the morality of the Catholic Church? Have they no shame ?

Quote: tsmith

To use a word like "meat" when referring to the symbolic body of Christ is not only offensive, but also ignorant, and to equate the talking of Communion (which, by the way, is practiced in churches other than Roman Catholic) with cannibalism is simply ridiculous.

Is "flesh" less offensive? In any case, if either literally or symbolically you're consuming the flesh and blood of a person, that is cannibalism either literal or symbolic.

Quote: tsmith

Wizard, for such a smart man, you come across a little dumb when it comes to discussing religions. It is immediately apparent that you have not done any serious research on the dogmas of any of them, and are making judgements based on outward appearances and hearsay rather than the individual beliefs of each and how they differ.

Ooo. Let's be careful to respect the forum rule about personal insults. If anything I say is in error, I welcome correction. So, let's see your points to show how ignorant I am...

Quote: tsmith

To say that the Latter Day Saints are better than other religions because they go door-to-door to recruit members or because the ones you know seem to be nice people, is like saying Hondas are better than Fords because their logo is fancier, or that Geico has better rates than Allstate because their commercials are funnier, or, to put it in terms that are most familiar to you, that blackjack games at Bellagio must be better than the ones at New York New York because their carpet is prettier and their dealers wear nicer outfits.

I think this goes right to the core of the issue of hypocrisy. Depending on the denomination, Christianity teaches that if I do not believe in Jesus then I either definitely will, or possibly will, go to hell for eternity. If that is true, how can the believers go about their daily lives knowing that thousands of people are going to hell every day?

They should be out in the streets warning people and giving away all their possessions to support this cause. Like I said in my original post, I think that most Christians would warn me if I was about to get hit by a bus. Yet, only the Mormons are coming to my door to personally explain to me what I have to do to get to Heaven. It seems they are the only ones who care. What else could be more important than the issue of saving people from hell?

Quote: tsmith

To use a word like "meat" when referring to the symbolic body of Christ is not only offensive, but also ignorant, and to equate the talking of Communion (which, by the way, is practiced in churches other than Roman Catholic) with cannibalism is simply ridiculous. The practice of Communion is not something that was made up by any one religion anyway, but was Jesus' idea, when He said at the Last Supper, "Do this in remembrance of me."

I created a separate thread for this discussion. Please see my reply to this point in Transubstantiation pt. 2.

Quote: tsmith

As for the "converts" at a Billy Graham revival, going to the front of the church when an invitation is offered does not have anything to do with joining any particular church or coverting from one religion to another. It is done merely to show that you are feeling the Holy Spirit within you and are publicly showing your repentance and acceptance of Jesus Christ as your personal Savior.

Let me get this straight. If someone accepts the alter call and is led through the "sinner's prayer" they do not immediately become a Christian? If so, then I stand corrected, and thank you for the correction. Can any other Christian verify what tsmith said to be correct? The most successful argument is the one I lose, because at least I learned something.

Quote: Wizard

I think this goes right to the core of the issue of hypocrisy. Depending on the denomination, Christianity teaches that if I do not believe in Jesus then I either definitely will, or possibly will, go to hell for eternity. If that is true, how can the believers go about their daily lives knowing that thousands of people are going to hell every day?

They should be out in the streets warning people and giving away all their possessions to support this cause. Like I said in my original post, I think that most Christians would warn me if I was about to get hit by a bus. Yet, only the Mormons are coming to my door to personally explain to me what I have to do to get to Heaven. It seems they are the only ones who care. What else could be more important than the issue of saving people from hell?

I think anyone would warn you if you were about to be hit by a bus, including athiests and Muslims. There are plenty of other faiths advertising their Christianity in many other ways besides a door knock: look at all of the TV ministries on TV, especially on Sunday morning before 9am (before NFL today goes on air in Vegas). You can hear it on the radio all of the time. Churches buy advertising all through Vegas. I admire that you think it's great that Mormons come a-knockin' at your door to sell you their belief in the word, but that's their Ministry. Others care, just not as personally. Just throw on some Jack Van Impe some Sunday morning to scare the fundamental bejesus out of ya.

As a Christian, I have my beliefs as well, but I don't put them on you or anyone else because I am open minded. There are other members of my faith (Lutheran) who do hold events on evenings and weekends (youth group, sunday schools, lunches, pierogie sales) etcetera where the "word" gets out. My daughter (who is not a Christian) attends Christian camps in the summer and goes to church each Tuesday night for fun and Jesus.

True story: I lost a girlfriend because I didn't convert at a Billy Graham revival. It was at Skydome in Toronto, about 15 years ago. She was a believer and it was very important to her that I was too. Now she's a university professor and part of a Nobel winning team. Ah, the moments in life where your whole life depends on a singular act.

Mormonism vs. Catholicism

I think that when comparing two things you need to consider the size of the probability space. Mormonism has existed for almost 2 centuries, Catholicism for 20 centuries. Mormons are 1:500 of the world population, while Catholics are 1:5 to 1:6 of the world population.

Catholicism is a great deal of the population and history of mankind. Selecting from such a broad probability space, you are bound to find numerous examples of behavior that is both extremely offensive and extremely commendable. There are stories of great kindness and compassion mixed with all the horrors of the conquest of Americas. For every story of pedophilia there are many examples of extreme selflessness.

Some of the greatest universities in the world were founded by Catholics, and you can trace some of the most ignorant actions of humanity to them as well.

Why does God hate goats? I thought God loved all of his creations.

I'd sooner believe in intelligent life visiting earth from another planet over an omnipresence beaming babies into human bellies.

Quote: kp

Why does God hate goats? I thought God loved all of his creations.

I'd sooner believe in intelligent life visiting earth from another planet over an omnipresence beaming babies into human bellies.

God hates figs, Mark 11:12-14

Quote: tsmith
Wizard, for such a smart man, you come across a little dumb when it comes to discussing religions. It is immediately apparent that you have not done any serious research on the dogmas of any of them, and are making judgements based on outward appearances and hearsay rather than the individual beliefs of each and how they differ.


Ooo. Let's be careful to respect the forum rule about personal insults. If anything I say is in error, I welcome correction. So, let's see your points to show how ignorant I am...


I apologize for a poor choice of words.


Quote: tsmith
To say that the Latter Day Saints are better than other religions because they go door-to-door to recruit members or because the ones you know seem to be nice people, is like saying Hondas are better than Fords because their logo is fancier, or that Geico has better rates than Allstate because their commercials are funnier, or, to put it in terms that are most familiar to you, that blackjack games at Bellagio must be better than the ones at New York New York because their carpet is prettier and their dealers wear nicer outfits.


I think this goes right to the core of the issue of hypocrisy. Depending on the denomination, Christianity teaches that if I do not believe in Jesus then I either definitely will, or possibly will, go to hell for eternity. If that is true, how can the believers go about their daily lives knowing that thousands of people are going to hell every day?

They should be out in the streets warning people and giving away all their possessions to support this cause. Like I said in my original post, I think that most Christians would warn me if I was about to get hit by a bus. Yet, only the Mormons are coming to my door to personally explain to me what I have to do to get to Heaven. It seems they are the only ones who care. What else could be more important than the issue of saving people from hell?


LDS members are no better or worse than any other Christians, in that they too believe that the only way to heaven is thru a belief in Jesus Christ as your one and only Savior. What they do that is different than Catholics or Baptists or Lutheranss is that they openly and actively go out in search of recruits, i.e., converts to their beliefs, which they think are the only ones that are correct.

They aren't knocking on your door because they're concerned about your everlasting soul any more than anyone else; they're doing it to increase their numbers. Other religions do the same thing, as someone else pointed out, but in different ways, usually thru missionary work. That's why I don't see why you think that the Mormons are so much better or more concerned about you, because they're doing the exact same thing as everyone else; just being a little more in-your-face about it.

How would you feel if vegans came to your table at a restaurant, telling you that you shouldn't eat hamburgers or scrambled eggs because they're bad for your body and that their way of eating was the only true way to health and happiness? Would you think they were doing a good thing? It's the same exact thing as what the Mormons and Jehovah's Witnesses do. If I'm not happy with my religion, I will go and seek out a new one, I don't need anyone telling me that my beliefs are wrong just because they don't match yours, which is what the Mormons and Witnesses are doing.

Another point is that a belief in Jesus as the Christ is not the only requirement for getting into heaven, one must also be as close to sin-free as possible. Anyone can claim to be a Christian, but it is the daily practice of what Jesus taught that is the proof of how good a Christian you are. If you want to flaunt the rules and do mean things every day and risk damning your soul to fire and brimstone, I might try to deter you and show you a better way, but ultimately it's your soul and your decision.


Quote: tsmith
As for the "converts" at a Billy Graham revival, going to the front of the church when an invitation is offered does not have anything to do with joining any particular church or coverting from one religion to another. It is done merely to show that you are feeling the Holy Spirit within you and are publicly showing your repentance and acceptance of Jesus Christ as your personal Savior.


Let me get this straight. If someone accepts the alter call and is led through the "sinner's prayer" they do not immediately become a Christian? If so, then I stand corrected, and thank you for the correction. Can any other Christian verify what tsmith said to be correct? The most successful argument is the one I lose, because at least I learned something.



"Immediately becoming a Christian" as you put it, is not the same as joining a church, which is what you said originally, plus that's not really what is happening. If you cry and wail and speak in tongues during a revival and then go home and go back to doing what you did before, you are no more a Christian than you were last week. You can attend a Baptist church for a hundred years, but if you never acknowledge that you have been saved by the Holy Spirit it don't mean diddly squat. You can go to Catholic Mass every day and twice on Sundays but if you commit adultery every day during the week, you'll never see heaven.

I was raised as a Catholic but I haven't attended a mass in over 45 years. These days when I go to a church it is a Baptist church, but I don't call myself Baptist, and have never converted to that religion or officially joined that church.

You will have to forgive the Wiz, He uses logic often in defending his positions.

Quote: buzzpaff

Drummond: The gospel!! The gospel according to Brady!! God speaks to Brady, and Brady tells the world world!! Brady!!! Brady!!! Brady, Almighty!!!

Brady: The Lord, the Lord is my strength --

Drummond: Suppose that a lesser human being -- suppose a Cates or a Darwin had the audacity to think that God might whisper to him? That an un-Brady thought might still be holy. Must a man go to prison because he differs with a self-appointed prophet?! Extend the Testaments! Let us have a book of Brady! We shall hex the Pentateuch and slip you in neatly between Numbers and Deuteronomy!!

The post is a bit older, but I fell a little behind on this thread.

One of the most fascinating plays about the Scopes Monkey Trials... I've often used monologues from the play as audition pieces.

For those of you who don't know the show... it's "Inherit the Wind." Although not a true study in religion, it certainly brings up a lot of issues of scientific teachings and how they can conflict with religious beliefs. The play focuses a lot in the courtroom, so I think of it more as a courtroom drama, similar to Twelve Angry Men. Still, it's a wonderful play, full of drama and emotion...

Quote: Wizard

Quote: pacomartin

All about Mormons" South Park

Just finished it -- that was indeed good. I'm ready for the next one!

To that end, I highly recommend Go, God Go/Go, God Go XII. Stan makes a comment about the teaching of evolution that I think is one of the smartest observations ever... forgive me if I paraphrase...

"Couldn't evolution be the answer to how and not the answer to why?"

Quote: s2dbaker

God hates figs, Mark 11:12-14

What do trees have to do with anything?

Quote: tsmith

LDS members are no better or worse than any other Christians, in that they too believe that the only way to heaven is thru a belief in Jesus Christ as your one and only Savior. What they do that is different than Catholics or Baptists or Lutheranss is that they openly and actively go out in search of recruits, i.e., converts to their beliefs, which they think are the only ones that are correct.

I think that is a big difference. To me it shows a lack of faith to not do so.

Quote: tsmith

They aren't knocking on your door because they're concerned about your everlasting soul any more than anyone else; they're doing it to increase their numbers. Other religions do the same thing, as someone else pointed out, but in different ways, usually thru missionary work. That's why I don't see why you think that the Mormons are so much better or more concerned about you, because they're doing the exact same thing as everyone else; just being a little more in-your-face about it.

One more Mormon is one less person in hell. That sounds like a noble goal to me. Granted one can make converts through missionary work too, but they also do that. However, doesn't Joe Six-Pack, who lives in the suburbs, need to get to Heaven too? The ones who have visited my door have always been very polite and don't stay longer than their welcome lasts.

Quote: tsmith

How would you feel if vegans came to your table at a restaurant, telling you that you shouldn't eat hamburgers or scrambled eggs because they're bad for your body and that their way of eating was the only true way to health and happiness? Would you think they were doing a good thing? It's the same exact thing as what the Mormons and Jehovah's Witnesses do. If I'm not happy with my religion, I will go and seek out a new one, I don't need anyone telling me that my beliefs are wrong just because they don't match yours, which is what the Mormons and Witnesses are doing.

I wouldn't like it, but that is not the same thing. My eternal soul does not depend on eating meat. Now, let's say that I was at the restaurant and somehow somebody knew there was rat poison in my food. I would hope that person would warn me. Going to hell would seem much worse, because if I die from eating poison I only lose about another 40 years of life, but if I got to hell I spend eternity there.

Quote: tsmith

Another point is that a belief in Jesus as the Christ is not the only requirement for getting into heaven, one must also be as close to sin-free as possible. Anyone can claim to be a Christian, but it is the daily practice of what Jesus taught that is the proof of how good a Christian you are. If you want to flaunt the rules and do mean things every day and risk damning your soul to fire and brimstone, I might try to deter you and show you a better way, but ultimately it's your soul and your decision.

I thought there was forgiveness. What if I repent on my death bed? Didn't Jesus forgive the thief on the cross next to him?

I think that the Wizard believes that the effort to spread Christianity should be a hallmark of the religion and that knocking from door to door spreading the word of Christ makes a better Christian then the Christians who simply play lip service (such as myself) to the faith.

To respond without being hypocritical, most churches have outreach programs where they do excellent work for the poor, send missionaries or members of the congregation to third world countries, have fundraisers for non-church causes, have youth groups (to keep kids off the street), and so on. In general, I think most churches have a decent segment of their congregation who do these kinds of community outreach.

I appreciate that Mike likes this. What about the Gideons who manage to distribute 1.7 billion bibles since 1908 (mostly to hotel rooms).

So, Mike, were you convinced. Are you now a Christian?

Quote: boymimbo

I think that the Wizard believes that the effort to spread Christianity should be a hallmark of the religion and that knocking from door to door spreading the word of Christ makes a better Christian then the Christians who simply play lip service (such as myself) to the faith.

I admire your honesty.

I respect other efforts to save souls. However, I don't live in a third-world country, so don't know who is doing what in that department. About the Gideons, putting bibles in hotel rooms I don't think has saved many people, but is probably more of a service to the already saved. I believe they use the King James translation, which is a chore to read. Also, funny how you never see a worn out Gideon's bible. They always look like they've never been touched. A bit off topic, but how come nobody puts a Koran or other holy books in hotel rooms? That would seem only fair.

Nope, not convinced yet, but keep trying.

Quote: Wizard

One more Mormon is one less person in hell.

Did you offer to sell Nareed's soul to the Mormon's? Can
you do that?

Quote: Wizard

A bit off topic, but how come nobody puts a Koran or other holy books in hotel rooms? That would seem only fair.

Some Muslims are not keen about non-Muslims handling the actual book. That's from my own personal experience in a Saudi Arabian bookstore. (in the actual Saudi Arabia) The guy wouldn't sell me one.

Quote: EvenBob

Did you offer to sell Nareed's soul to the Mormon's? Can you do that?

No. They can baptism him after death for free anyway.

Quote: rxwine

Some Muslims are not keen about non-Muslims handling the actual book. That's from my own personal experience in a Saudi Arabian bookstore. (in the actual Saudi Arabia) The guy wouldn't sell me one.

I did not know that. I have a Koran and read about the first 25% of it many years ago. It reads pretty much like the Psalms in the bible.

Let me add that in retrospect I think my OP was too mean and divisive. I have been in a salty mood lately, and took out my venom on the forum. To anyone I offended, I apologize.

Quote: Wizard

I admire your honesty.

I respect other efforts to save souls. However, I don't live in a third-world country, so don't know who is doing what in that department. About the Gideons, putting bibles in hotel rooms I don't think has saved many people, but is probably more of a service to the already saved. I believe they use the King James translation, which is a chore to read. Also, funny how you never see a worn out Gideon's bible. They always look like they've never been touched. A bit off topic, but how come nobody puts a Koran or other holy books in hotel rooms? That would seem only fair.

Nope, not convinced yet, but keep trying.

The Gideons will add The New King James Version (NKJV) published in 1982 if specifically requested, but you are correct that they default to the 1611 text. The idea of putting the Quran into hotel rooms has been discussed. Most Muslims are simply afraid of copies of the book being defiled.

While many people consider reading the early modern English a chore, others respect it's poetry. The NKJ tried to update the most archaic parts of the language while retaining the nature of the verse which other translations have considered less important than more accurate respect for the original language.

The RAE, a grammatical societies in Spain and around the world was originally formed to preserve the Spanish language as exemplified by Cervantes. Interestingly enough both Cervantes and William Shakespeare died on April 23, 1616. However, Shakespeare and Cervantes died on different days: Shakespeare on April 23, 1616 of the Julian calendar that was used in England and Cervantes April 23, 1616 of the Gregorian calendar that was used in Spain. Since the Gregorian calendar was ten days ahead of the Julian, Cervantes actually died ten days earlier than Shakespeare.

Speaking of the King James bible and Shakespeare, any comment from you on the theory that Shakespeare himself translated at lease one of the Psalms, as evidenced by an alleged hidden message in it? In the King James translation of Psalm 46 the 46th word down is Shake, and the 46th from the end is Spear. I go with just a coincidence.

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