Casino Anti Money Laundering and Compliance
Quote: MDawgUnderstood.
My general rule of thumb is that IF I just dumped at one casino, and I am really hot in the biscuit to pay them off with winnings from another casino, I will just pull the cash from the winning joint, walk it to other casino and pay off or close to pay off. That way, outgoing CTR filed on me, cancelled out by incoming CTR filed on me.
But most of the time, I don’t care to pay them off instantly, partly because as well, I need to lock in whatever concession I am going to get for the loss, and once I pay it all off I feel like I have lost some leverage, including the leverage obtained by, “I’ll pay it off today, if you discount it _____.” So in this sort of instance where I lost one place and won another, I just take a check for my winnings, and pay the casino where I lost with my own cashier’s check. As you know, that is exactly what happened once this trip.
Fair enough.
I only brought up that occasion because it's the most memorable one (yeah the one where you lost :) )
All the winning sessions are just a blur
Quote: DRichIf it is over $10k they must report where the money came from. They are resposnible for asking you where it came from. If you say it came from your job, they will ask what you do. If you say lawyer for example they will ask what law firm and the address. They will also run your name through various databases to try and confirm it and make sure that you are not a Politically Exposed Person.
I agree that is the requirement. I would say, regarding slot players, they might not necessarily know when you have hit the 10k in cash mark.
Quote: darkozI get that
DRich claims after spending $10,000 they are sending someone to verify income, they will ask me where I work, ask for proof of income yadda yadda.
I can attest through personal experience that isn't happening anywhere (that I have played)
I don't understand why you keep mentioning CTR and SAR as some type of gotcha because they are filling those on you too
Assuming you are truthful about $48,000 losses and $38,000 wins all in a lazy summer afternoon
DRich said they are responsible to do that and DRich is an expert, so I’m inclined to accept that at face value.
My argument is that what people are, “Responsible,” for doing doesn’t always happen.
Quote: darkozThen I can personally name a bunch of Casinos that simply break the law.
I have personally gambled more than ten thousand in a single day on my own player's card and not had even one single question flung my way as to where I got the money.
I have never been asked about the source of my money by casinos.
And as I posted earlier in this thread, when i deposited a lot of cash at Bank of America they didnt even ask about how i got it -- they just put my business info on the report and ignored my casino winnings.
I do know that when I apply for a line many casinos ask for my employment, salary, net worth, liquid assets, etc.
Quote: MDawgKnown players aren't questioned, unless, I suppose, they suddenly start activity which is outside of their norm.
I do know that when I apply for a line many casinos ask for my employment, salary, net worth, liquid assets, etc.
I would expect that for a line of credit.
How about this – if it IS possible, then let him declare the machine on which he wishes to proceed, and I will then find an identical machine in the same casino and he may proceed with that one of my choice. Otherwise, it goes back to that the machine he chooses is somehow loaded in advance – which means then that he is NOT receiving a W2-G or anything else for NO play, but for some kind of prior play.
Quote: MDawgAs far as this AxelWolf claim that someone could NOT play AT ALL, and still get a W2-G and check, that is impossible. Since he refuses to undertake it on a cold slot machine of my picking, this means that that there is some prior play on the machine of his choice whereby he merely comes up to somehow proceed further. In other words, some kind of setup.
How about this – if it IS possible, then let him declare the machine on which he wishes to proceed, and I will then find an identical machine in the same casino and he may proceed with that one of my choice. Otherwise, it goes back to that the machine he chooses is somehow loaded in advance – which means then that he is NOT receiving a W2-G or anything else for NO play, but for some kind of prior play.
I understand your suspicion but it makes no sense when you think about it.
You are suggesting Axel will frontload (for lack of a better term) W2-G wins?
I don't know what Axel play is but it is obviously not available on just any machine.
As a past card counter you know some 21 games have favorable rules that make it +EV and some don't. You scope out the ones that give you an edge. If you wanted to prove your edge at blackjack and the other person insisted he pick the Blackjack game and he was going to pick a really bad EV game you would refuse, correct?
Axel has some AP maneuver possible on only certain games under certain scenarios. He isn't claiming it's possible everywhere. He is only claiming it's possible.
It's been a while since that particular case, but that isn't the only time. It's a moot point since it doesn't matter if it was 100 years ago or 1 day ago. What matters is if it's possible or not.Quote: MDawgAxelWolf also never answered my question: AxelWolf you mentioned a witnessed incident. How long ago was that?
WRONG!!!!!!!! You just don't understand the circumstances in which it could be done and why it would/could happen.Quote: MDawgAs far as this AxelWolf claim that someone could NOT play AT ALL, and still get a W2-G and check, that is impossible. Since he refuses to undertake it on a cold slot machine of my picking, this means that that there is some prior play on the machine of his choice whereby he merely comes up to somehow proceed further. In other words, some kind of setup.
It's not just a particular type of machine that makes it possible, it's multiple different factors.
Quote: MDawgAs far as this AxelWolf claim that someone could NOT play AT ALL, and still get a W2-G and check, that is impossible. Since he refuses to undertake it on a cold slot machine of my picking, this means that that there is some prior play on the machine of his choice whereby he merely comes up to somehow proceed further. In other words, some kind of setup.
How about this – if it IS possible, then let him declare the machine on which he wishes to proceed, and I will then find an identical machine in the same casino and he may proceed with that one of my choice. Otherwise, it goes back to that the machine he chooses is somehow loaded in advance – which means then that he is NOT receiving a W2-G or anything else for NO play, but for some kind of prior play.
So because he won’t do it in a random (to him) casino on a random (to him) machine makes it impossible?
Worse than random, because you’re picking it. For all he knows, you’ve already determined that you’re picking a machine where it can’t be done.
Even if he picks a game, the casino the game is in could also be important. This is why you guys should handle this privately, that way posts like this that would make nobody want to ever engage you in a bet don’t happen.
Quote: unJonAxelWolf has the better side of this one. Sorry MDawg. Just make a no “front loading rule”. I don’t even know how you would front load for the contest since he is only putting in money and cashing out without playing. Either you think that is possible or impossible.
Excellent point, Unjon
The simplest stipulation and which was implicit all along is that the slot machine says zero credits.
Axel shows he inserts cash, cashes out with no play and gets issued a check or W2-G.
The suggestion that Axel could go to a slot machine with zero credits that he left with latent inactive W2-G action just waiting from prior play is patently more ridiculous a claim than Axel's.
It shows a serious lack of understanding of how slot W2-G"s are generated
Quote: Mission146So because he won’t do it in a random (to him) casino on a random (to him) machine makes it impossible?
Worse than random, because you’re picking it. For all he knows, you’ve already determined that you’re picking a machine where it can’t be done.
Even if he picks a game, the casino the game is in could also be important. This is why you guys should handle this privately, that way posts like this that would make nobody want to ever engage you in a bet don’t happen.
I want to clarify that MDawg can make whatever proposal for a bet he wishes, that's not what I'm saying. I'm just saying that proposing a ridiculously one-sided bet in a public post is never a good look for anybody.
Quote: Mission146I want to clarify that MDawg can make whatever proposal for a bet he wishes, that's not what I'm saying. I'm just saying that proposing a ridiculously one-sided bet in a public post is never a good look for anybody.
But Mission, without all this public bickering how would you have enough posts to satisfy your urge to keep clicking the thank you button!
Quote: darkozBut Mission, without all this public bickering how would you have any posts to keep clicking thank you!
That's a very good point. I usually try to make a habit of thanking any post in a thread that I'm involved in. I guess it would be hard to stop now that I have set the standard.
Don't we ALL agree that you should NOT get a W2G just for cashing out your own money without any play?
I'm not including the part about getting a CHECK because that will vary casino by casino.
Quote: AlanMendelsonI am really curious about this Axelwolf mystery machine and casino.
Don't we ALL agree that you should NOT get a W2G just for cashing out your own money without any play?
I'm not including the part about getting a CHECK because that will vary casino by casino.
Yes, I unequivocally agree that should not happen. Things that 'shouldn't happen' do happen every day and just about everywhere.
Quote: Mission146I want to clarify that MDawg can make whatever proposal for a bet he wishes, that's not what I'm saying. I'm just saying that proposing a ridiculously one-sided bet in a public post is never a good look for anybody.
That's nice of you to worry that a guy whose entire existence seems based on making improbable claims might sully his reputation by making a silly bet.
Quote: darkozDRich,
If the casino can't keep up to ask me questions as I sit for four hours at the same machine pulling $200 per spin chasing a MH, trust me, they just don't care where I got the money
I agree, the casinos don't care where the money came from but FINCEN does.
Quote: Mission146Yes, I unequivocally agree that should not happen. Things that 'shouldn't happen' do happen every day and just about everywhere.
I have never seen anyone get a W2G for cashing out. W2G are given for jackpots.
Quote: AxelWolfIt's been a while since that particular case, but that isn't the only time. It's a moot point since it doesn't matter if it was 100 years ago or 1 day ago. What matters is if it's possible or not.
The relevance in how long ago this happened is:
1. My general feeling that what you have to say on this subject of getting checks from casinos is antiquated because it dates from the past.
2. The anti-money laundering laws as Vegas casinos have applied them have changed a lot over the years. Prior to 1996, you probably could have somehow exchanged even over 2500 in cash to a check at a casino. Starting in 1996, no Nevada casino would allow more than 2500 cash to be converted to casino check.
And, Sometime between 1996 and today, the Vegas casino policies changed such that not even one penny of un-played cash may be converted to casino check.
Still a moot point. What is supposed to happen doesn't always happen. You claim it's impossible, I claim it is possible. I'm not going to lay it out for you how it's possible.Quote: MDawgThe relevance in how long ago this happened is:
1. My general feeling that what you have to say on this subject of getting checks from casinos is antiquated because it dates from the past.
2. The anti-money laundering laws as Vegas casinos have applied them have changed a lot over the years. Prior to 1996, you probably could have somehow exchanged even over 2500 in cash to a check at a casino. Starting in 1996, no Nevada casino would allow more than 2500 cash to be converted to casino check.
And, Sometime between 1996 and today, the Vegas casino policies changed such that not even one penny of un-played cash may be converted to casino check.
And that you are refusing to disclose how long ago this witnessed incident happened, seems to tell me that it happened a very long time ago, when casino regulations might have been quite different and much more lax. Plus you didn't even GET a check in that witnessed incident, you merely claim that you "could have."
Again, I'm not talking about the past, I'm talking about what's possible TODAY, therefore it's a moot point as it doesn't matter how long ago it was.Quote: MDawgIt is not a moot point whatsoever. I contend that it is impossible TODAY to go into a Vegas casino and convert unplayed cash into casino check. What you might have done years ago is irrelevant.
And that you are refusing to disclose how long ago this witnessed incident happened, seems to tell me that it happened a very long time ago, when casino regulations might have been quite different and much more lax.
FYI within the last month, a location tried to give me a W2G when I cashed out accumulated credits, I had to explain to them it wasn't a taxable jackpot and why.
Again, I'm not talking about the past, I'm talking about what's possible TODAY, therefore it's a moot point as it doesn't matter how long ago it was.Quote: MDawgIt is not a moot point whatsoever. I contend that it is impossible TODAY to go into a Vegas casino and convert unplayed cash into casino check. What you might have done years ago is irrelevant.
And that you are refusing to disclose how long ago this witnessed incident happened, seems to tell me that it happened a very long time ago, when casino regulations might have been quite different and much more lax.
FYI within the last month, a location tried to give me a W2G when I cashed out accumulated credits, I had to explain to them it wasn't a taxable jackpot and why.
Quote: MDawgIt is not a moot point whatsoever. I contend that it is impossible TODAY to go into a Vegas casino and convert unplayed cash into casino check. What you might have done years ago is irrelevant.
And that you are refusing to disclose how long ago this witnessed incident happened, seems to tell me that it happened a very long time ago, when casino regulations might have been quite different and much more lax. Plus you didn't even GET a check in that witnessed incident, you merely claim that you "could have."
So then go watch Axel fail and make an easy wager.
It's amazing that this avenue of historical ability is what you are using to stall and divert from the wager.
If you are 100% confident that what Axel says is impossible to do then set up the location, go make your money.
Put up or shut up.
Quote: AxelWolfIt's allready been discussed that this is not the standard and I rejected a bet from coach on a random machine, so I'm not sure why you would make an offer of a bet where you got to pick the machine. Yeah, I know, you are going to claim you didn't read that even tho it was discussed by more than one person.Quote: MDawgLet's make things nice and sparkling clear. Is this the wager you are proposing.
That:
1. I will meet you in a casino of my choice.
2. You will go up to a slot machine I pick, such that we know you could not have played it before.
3. You will put cash into it. "X dollars"
4. You will not play.
5. You will cash out.
6. We will go directly to the cage and you will get a check for the cash ("X dollars") you input.
7. You will additionally get a W2-G for a hand payout jackpot from that day, after having not played at all, for that slot machine.
I have no doubt my attempt would fail if you got to pick the machine and location.
Your offer is an attempt to make it look as though I'm backing out of something as you dang well know I rejected the coach's conditions and stated this is rare situation and not the standard.
Tried, he did not accept.
Quote: MDawgAs far as this AxelWolf claim that someone could NOT play AT ALL, and still get a W2-G and check, that is impossible. Since he refuses to undertake it on a cold slot machine of my picking, this means that that there is some prior play on the machine of his choice whereby he merely comes up to somehow proceed further. In other words, some kind of setup.
How about this – if it IS possible, then let him declare the machine on which he wishes to proceed, and I will then find an identical machine in the same casino and he may proceed with that one of my choice. Otherwise, it goes back to that the machine he chooses is somehow loaded in advance – which means then that he is NOT receiving a W2-G or anything else for NO play, but for some kind of prior play.
It's never going to happen. In this situation, I'm not going to make a bet unless I'm confident I can win, he is never going to accept a bet under the conditions I require. He will only make offers of bets with the conditions he knows I would not accept.Quote: darkozSo then go watch Axel fail and make an easy wager.
It's amazing that this avenue of historical ability is what you are using to stall and divert from the wager.
If you are 100% confident that what Axel says is impossible to do then set up the location, go make your money.
Put up or shut up.
Quote: MDawgQuote: AxelWolfIt's allready been discussed that this is not the standard and I rejected a bet from coach on a random machine, so I'm not sure why you would make an offer of a bet where you got to pick the machine. Yeah, I know, you are going to claim you didn't read that even tho it was discussed by more than one person.Quote: MDawgLet's make things nice and sparkling clear. Is this the wager you are proposing.
That:
1. I will meet you in a casino of my choice.
2. You will go up to a slot machine I pick, such that we know you could not have played it before.
3. You will put cash into it. "X dollars"
4. You will not play.
5. You will cash out.
6. We will go directly to the cage and you will get a check for the cash ("X dollars") you input.
7. You will additionally get a W2-G for a hand payout jackpot from that day, after having not played at all, for that slot machine.
I have no doubt my attempt would fail if you got to pick the machine and location.
Your offer is an attempt to make it look as though I'm backing out of something as you dang well know I rejected the coach's conditions and stated this is rare situation and not the standard.
Tried, he did not accept.
You didn't try.
It's like if I accepted your offer to show you have a winning line of credit at Casinos playing Baccarat and INSISTED you do it at a casino and Baccarat table of my choice
As far as I am concerned if you refuse to go see Axel do what he claims then you concede he knows what he is talking about and are wisely not putting your money at substantial risk.
Quote: MDawgGoing up to a cold, random slot machine and getting a W2-G AND a check without playing at all (which, even AWolf admits that he didn’t get a check when he claims to have done whatever he did in the distant past, just that he could have), would prove something. Going up to a slot machine that AWolf or someone else has somehow fixed, played or loaded from before, proves nothing.
Okay, so the following things are apparent to me:
1.) MDawg will not accept a machine at a location of Axelwolf's choosing because it is MDawg's apparent opinion that Axelwolf can somehow gimmick this (supposedly impossible) event to happen in advance.
Of course, even if the event could happen by way of artificial contrivance, the event becomes possible.
2.) Axelwolf will not accept a casino and machine at a location of MDawg's choosing for substantially the same reasons.
3.) MDawg would (I assume) refuse a location and machine chosen at random by some other person because MDawg would suspect that the choosing was not random, ergo, see #1.
4.) Axelwolf would (I assume) refuse a location and machine chosen at random by some other person because the probability is such that the machine and location chosen would not yield this result.
In other words, Axelwolf is saying that it is not impossible, that there are more than zero exceptions, which is totally different than saying it's likely to happen at any given casino and machine.
Therefore, I must conclude that there are not going to be any mutually acceptable terms for the parties, and thus, no bet. I would conclude that any continued discussion or pursuit of the bet, as an extension, would be a waste of time.
Quote: Mission146That's a very good point. I usually try to make a habit of thanking any post in a thread that I'm involved in. I guess it would be hard to stop now that I have set the standard.
Nah, just apply a quality threshold. Only thank the good posts. Or OK and better. Or "Not wholly devoid of merit".
As for the other argument raging, if someone says they can do the impossible, let them do it their way. You already know it's impossible to get it done the way you'd try.
Coach is the one that brought up the frontloading machines and this has nothing to do with that whatsoever.Quote: MDawgGoing up to a cold, random slot machine and getting a W2-G AND a check without playing at all (which, even AWolf admits that he didn’t get a check when he claims to have done whatever he did in the apparently distant past, just that he could have), would prove something. Going up to a slot machine that AWolf or someone else has somehow fixed, played or loaded from before, proves nothing.
Frontloading a machine would require one to play in order to retrieve the fronloaded loaded money/value. You would be correct in saying that wouldn't count.
in my scenario, there would be no credits, cash, or frontloaded value on the machine prior.
Let's assume a CASH player just for purposes of this: It would be like if I went up to a table, won, and pocketed my winning chips, playing under my player card. Let’s say I won $6000.
Then I came back the next day, still playing under my player card, bought in for $6000., then decided not to play, and walked to the cage, cashed out those $6000. in chips that were just handed to me on the second day, and now claimed that I had converted $6000. in unplayed chips to a winning check.
Quote: MDawgGoing up to a cold, random slot machine and getting a W2-G AND a check without playing at all (which, even AWolf admits that he didn’t get a check when he claims to have done whatever he did in the apparently distant past, just that he could have), would prove something. Going up to a slot machine that AWolf or someone else has somehow fixed, played or loaded from before, proves nothing.
Fixed?
Let's for shots and giggles walk through how that would work.
Axel has an associate go and play presumably a high limit slot to guarantee a Jackpot W2-G.
Okay he wins say $2000.
Anyone who has ever played a slot machine (forum members come on and admit this) knows the slot locks up and an attendant comes and pays you before any further gaming can take place.
The idea of leaving a W2-G behind on a machine with no credits is an even bigger accusation (read impossibility) than Axel's claim. (In fact, there should be a wager for you to prove how that's possible)
Okay for shots and giggles let's assume that Axel has now found the one machine in the world that actually stores W2-G Jackpots for later. Now what happens.
Axel takes you to the slot and inserts in front of you $2000. The machine had shown zero credits (with some phantom Jackpot magically stored [making me want to vomit at such imagination]) and now Axel cashes out said $2000.
He walks with you to the cashier and hands in the $2000 cash voucher and is given what?????
If he gets $2000 for the cash voucher and he had some stored magical W2-G then he would ALSO get paid a check for that. In other words you would witness them giving Axel a check for the $2000 Jackpot that he magically stored in the slot AND the $2000 Axel just inserted in front of you.
How did Axel get paid $4,000 after inserting $2000?
I E. There is no way any Jackpot could be frontloaded and you wouldn't witness the cash payment added to it.
This of course is IF BIG IF some manner of frontloading W2-G Jackpots exists which it doesn't.
Unless you are suggesting that the actual cashier is in on it and Axel intends to share the wager proceeds with her. A cashier who will risk her job by issuing a check for cash.
But haven't you always decried that type of collusion ridiculous when making your own wagers?
Nothing would/ has been done to/with the machines I'm talking about.Quote: MDawgSo, obviously, something e he wants to claim has not been previously played, to allow him to cash out and get a W-2G and check allegedly without play.
Quote: MDawgMission146, it should be clear that "the fix is in" in that AWolf refuses to allow this to proceed on other than any machine which he has pre-designated. He won’t even allow it to proceed on an identical machine to the one he pre-designates. So, obviously, something has been done to/with that machine he wants to claim has not been previously played, to allow him to cash out and get a W-2G and check allegedly without play.
Let's assume a CASH player just for purposes of this: It would be like if I went up to a table, won, and pocketed my winning chips, playing under my player card. Let’s say I won $6000.
Then I came back the next day, still playing under my player card, bought in for $6000., then decided not to play, and walked to the cage, cashed out those $6000. in chips that were just handed to me on the second day, and now claimed that I had converted $6000. in unplayed chips to a winning check.
If Axelwolf is submitting that something doesn't generally happen, but that it's not, "Impossible," of course he would want to choose a machine where he believes it can be reproduced. That would be like me saying that Video Poker is a game that usually does not have a profitable expectation, but there are exceptions, then you turn around and propose a bet by which you get to pick the Video Poker machine and game because you say it's impossible that I could have a profitable expectation and play x hands (where x is a huge number) profitably.
I'm totally screwed if I accept that bet and you sit me down on 6/5 Jacks.
That's right. Every single bet breakeven or profitable. It could be front loaded, of course, but that's totally unnecessary. As long as we could check around at enough locations, I would be virtually guaranteed to find a situation in which I can make a bet with 0% probability of losing money.
If anyone wants to bet me that I'm wrong, I'm all ears.
Of course, these are EXCEPTIONS to the general rule. There are some machine states in casinos (which these are not) by which losing on the next spin is not possible absent some machine malfunction, of course, those situations are much more rare than what I am talking about. In general, you just don't want to use words like, 'Impossible,' unless you are absolutely sure. That's all.
I'd never bet saying it's impossible.
Quote: MDawgI think some of you give too much credence to this possibility of insider casino collusion. It happens rarely and the bad actors are usually caught. I am confident that whatever AWolf is talking about has nothing to do with some casino employee risking his job and the wrath of the federal government by issuing a fake W2-G.
I would believe in employee Casino collusion before I believe in frontloading W2-G Jackpots in zero credit slot machines
Quote: MDawgI think some of you give too much credence to this possibility of insider casino collusion. It happens rarely and the bad actors are usually caught. I am confident that whatever AWolf is talking about has nothing to do with some casino employee risking his job and the wrath of the federal government by issuing a fake W2-G.
I'm sure it's a real W2G.
Quote: MDawgGoing up to a cold, random slot machine and getting a W2-G AND a check without playing at all (which, even AWolf admits that he didn’t get a check when he claims to have done whatever he did in the apparently distant past, just that he could have), would prove something. Going up to a slot machine that AWolf or someone else has somehow fixed, played or loaded from before, proves nothing.
I think it’s good you aren’t betting. But it does prove something. You earlier said it was impossible. Now you are saying Axel may be able to find or create a situation where it happens. It’s good to reassess situations and applaud that you have done so.
