Casino Anti Money Laundering and Compliance
I actually cannot imagine anyone claiming such a thing, so let's hope we all misheard.
This thread was created to discuss ANTI-money laundering provisions in casinos. But, as always and with all WOV threads, it has gone in various directions, which is normal.
I never said anything about doing this with a table game or going straight to the cage to exchange those chips or the slip from the slot machine for a check. I don't even know what slip you are talking about, perhaps you dont know how slot jackpots usually work.Quote: MDawgI wouldn't waste my time debating with someone who thinks it is possible to walk up to a table game or slot machine, either buy chips with cash or fill the slot machine up with cash, NOT play, and then go straight to the cage to exchange those chips or the slip from the slot machine for a check, LET ALONE anyone who adds that he would be able to do this on a slot machine, get the check, AND a W2-G for zero action.
I dont think it's possible, I know it's possible, it's rare and you need the right circumstances, but it's possible. I guess that would be the kind of thing a money launderer is looking for, something rare that people think is impossible to do, therefore it seems legit.
Put your money where your mouth is.
So you dont even know what I'm saying, but you are claiming it's not possible? Go figure!Quote: MDawgWhat exactly is possible? Spend a few minutes to spell out what exactly you are claiming.
Anyway, like I said, I wouldn't waste my time debating with someone who thinks it is possible to walk up to a slot machine, fill the slot machine up with cash, NOT play, and then go straight to the cage to exchange the slip from the slot machine for a check, LET ALONE anyone who adds that he would be able to do this on a slot machine, get the check, AND a W2-G for zero action.
I actually cannot imagine anyone claiming such a thing, so let's hope we all misheard.
I'll leave it to Coach Belly to expose you when he returns. You're already apparently alluding to drama from other forums, which is impermissible.
I wouldn't waste my time debating with someone who doesn't understand that unplayed cash may not be exchanged for checks at casinos. Period. If you'd like to go to a casino and actually try it, then you'll be wised up as to the reality of anti-money laundering rules.
Quote: MDawgI wouldn't waste my time debating with someone who thinks it is possible to walk up to a table game or slot machine, either buy chips with cash or fill the slot machine up with cash, NOT play, and then go straight to the cage to exchange those chips or the slip from the slot machine for a check,
Yeah, nobody said that. Nice strawman.
Many of us know someone in a casino who can bend the rules or make an exception. But that's not standard practice.
Yes, there might be a casino with someone at the cage who would let you load up a slot with $10k, then let you immediately cash out, and give you a check and a W2G. Yes. Its possible. But is it standard practice?
I know dealers at a certain casino who allow call bets at their craps game for certain players even though call bets are prohibited and no call bets are standard practice.
I know boxman at certain casinos who allow "table markers" for certain players so they dont have to run to the ATM during a hot roll. Table markers are not standard practice but they're possible.
To make bets over exceptions to rules is silly. Exceptions are made all the time.
MDawg says being issued a check without play is against the rules.
Axel is claiming rules or not there are a few rare conditions it can happen.
Alan is concurring with Axel but claiming a few rare conditions don't count because they are rare and not the norm.
Axel is claiming that's precisely the point. They do exist but are rare and are left for the competent AP/drug dealer to discover and exploit. (Which is what AP's do imo, they take the usual and uncover the unusual situation that flips a -ev into a positive)
Imo Axel is correct in his argument (even though I don't know what he is doing). It sounds very much like the argument I get about what I do and strangely from these same people.
Axel knows I can make s living from Freeplay by multi-carding
Alan claims it's rare and and can't be considered legit.
MDawg doesn't understand how it can be done so says it's impossible.
Deja Vu, gentleman!
I don't agree "anything is possible", but I get your point. As i said before, I only mentioned a list of things that were possible once I saw MDawg claim certain things were IMPOSSIBLE(in caps, no less).Quote: AlanMendelsonA word of caution: anything is possible. The real question should always be what's the standard practice?
Many of us know someone in a casino who can bend the rules or make an exception. But that's not standard practice.
Yes, there might be a casino with someone at the cage who would let you load up a slot with $10k, then let you immediately cash out, and give you a check and a W2G. Yes. Its possible. But is it standard practice?
I know dealers at a certain casino who allow call bets at their craps game for certain players even though call bets are prohibited and no call bets are standard practice.
I know boxman at certain casinos who allow "table markers" for certain players so they dont have to run to the ATM during a hot roll. Table markers are not standard practice but they're possible.
To make bets over exceptions to rules is silly. Exceptions are made all the time.
I was going to give an example and scenario of such things however, I thought screw it, Coach doesn't deserve to know, I'm not here to satisfy or educate a guy like him who I feel you would have to do a deep long hard search on the forums to find anything helpful or positive from him. Go back and look at the conversation, it was going fine then enter Coachbelly and that's when things go all to hell.
Quote: darkoz
Alan claims it's rare and and can't be considered legit.
I said nothing about legitimacy. I said it's not standard practice.
Things can be outside standard practice but still be legitimate and legal.
My point was you shouldn't bet against things that go against standard practice as they can still happen.
Really, please explain where I did that? I think it was your buddy coach who did that when I asked him to quote where I said something and he responded with...My understanding is that it's not permitted to do that here,......Quote: MDawgYou're already apparently alluding to drama from other forums, which is impermissible.
Quote: AlanMendelsonI said nothing about legitimacy. I said it's not standard practice.
Things can be outside standard practice but still be legitimate and legal.
My point was you shouldn't bet against things that go against standard practice as they can still happen.
I think I wasn't being clear so that's my fault.
I wasn't referring to the word legit in the legal sense. I meant as a form of play or advantage that can be considered common so that this wager between Axel and Coach can be considered "legit".
I'm probably screwing up what I mean in my head so here is an example
If I make a wager with you that I have a method for never busting with 22 at Blackjack.
And then insist it only works on a Blackjack variant which pulls to 22.
Technically I win the wager. But you could claim it wasn't a legit wager because the game is a rare variant and hard to find. But I was still correct I had a method for never busting on 22 at Blackjack (said method being always play a game where you bust on 23)
So, that's what I meant by calling this cashing out without play and getting a W2G not "legit" as a wager.
One of my favorite (in jest) wagers is that I can tell the ending to any future film Even before it's hit movie theaters. People often refuse to listen to what the ending is because they plan on seeing the film.
I predict XYZ future film to be released will end with a black screen and a list of names that scrolls by showing who worked on it.
I win! A legit wager?
Quote: MDawgYou're already apparently alluding to drama from other forums, which is impermissible.
Quote: AxelWolfReally, please explain where I did that? I think it was your buddy coach who did that when I asked him to quote where I said something and he responded with...My understanding is that it's not permitted to do that here,......
Quote: AxelWolfI think someone may have said something about Mdawg possibly laundering money for someone, or something like that. Thus the reason for the thread trying to debunk the possibility.Quote: Mission146What is the purpose of this thread, anyway?
Was this absurd troll that MDawg is possibly laundering money for someone discussed here at WOV, or at two other forums, by two currently suspended members? It's also insulting that you would think that I created this entire thread just to debunk that possibility.
So we have a combination of an insult, and introducing drama from other forums.
If anything, you could claim that I created this thread to show that the half million in winning checks of mine the Wizard has viewed represent actual wins at the tables, but really I just created this thread to discuss casino anti-money laundering including as it relates to casino credit and front money, because a WOV member and I were discussing this topic privately, and we then further discussed that I would address his question in a public post.
Quote: AxelWolfMinus asking for a check (and I could have received one had I asked, but there was no reason for me to want one) I have received a W2G's for Handpay Jackpots where I simply inserted money and cashed out.
Quote: MDawgWas this absurd troll that MDawg is possibly laundering money for someone discussed here at WOV, or at two other forums, by two currently suspended members? It's also insulting that you would think that I created this entire thread just to debunk that possibility.
So we have a combination of an insult, and introducing drama from other forums.
If anything, you could claim that I created this thread to show that the half million in winning checks of mine the Wizard has viewed represent actual wins at the tables, but really I just created this thread to discuss casino anti-money laundering because a WOV member and I were discussing it privately, and we then further discussed that I would address his question in a public post.
I don't know that there was an insult. There was also so much speculation about you in your Adventures of MDawg thread, which, correct me if I'm wrong, was designed to tell us about your adventures and to get people talking about them...that I think it's hard to remember what very specific things were said at which forum. He certainly didn't quote anything directly from another forum and much speculation was done in those hundreds of pages about potential, "Angles."
Anyway, my curiosity as to why this thread was created has been satisfied and I accept your answer. Thanks for answering my question.
Quote: MDawgI am stating two things. Unless this happened before 1996, you could not have received a check for a cash out absent play, and regardless of what year it happened, you could not have received a W2-G representing a win absent play.
To be clear, this is exactly what you are claiming, is it not:
Seriously, what is a "handpay jackpot" - it represents a win. How could you have gotten a W2-G for a handpay jackpot without even playing?
It seems that we are perhaps running into a difference between, "Could not have," and, "Should not have," once again. COULD NOT asks me to assume that casinos do things correctly, legally and by the book 100% of the time. You'll forgive me if that is an assumption I refuse to make, especially in light of widely reported happenings to the contrary.
Quote: billryanI think this thread needs to be sent to the cornfield with others of its ilk.
Send me instead. Dig the hole. All I ask is that you make it quick.
Quote: Mission146It seems that we are perhaps running into a difference between, "Could not have," and, "Should not have," once again. COULD NOT asks me to assume that casinos do things correctly, legally and by the book 100% of the time. You'll forgive me if that is an assumption I refuse to make, especially in light of widely reported happenings to the contrary.
Is not a W2-G a legal document attesting that a certain dollar win from, in this case, a slot machine was made? The casino would risk everything issuing it where there was not only no win, but no play. There has to be more to this than simply walking up to a slot machine cold, filling it with cash, not spinning the reels even once (no play), cashing out, and then getting a W2-G for a non-existent win.
And note that in his example AxelWolf believes that he "could" have obtained a check. Not that he did. I'd say that his belief is based on misbelief.
Put your money where your mouth is.Quote: MDawgI am stating two things. Unless this happened before 1996, you could not have received a check for a cash out absent play, and regardless of what year it happened, you could not have received a W2-G representing a win absent play.
To be clear, this is exactly what you are claiming, is it not:
Seriously, what is a "handpay jackpot" - it represents a win. How could you have gotten a W2-G for a handpay jackpot without even playing?
That:
1. I will meet you in a casino of my choice.
2. You will go up to a slot machine I pick, such that we know you could not have played it before.
3. You will put cash into it. "X dollars"
4. You will not play.
5. You will cash out.
6. We will go directly to the cage and you will get a check for the cash ("X dollars") you input.
7. You will additionally get a W2-G for a hand payout jackpot from that day, after having not played at all, for that slot machine.
Quote: MDawg
Is not a W2-G a legal document attesting that a certain dollar win from, in this case, a slot machine was made? The casino would risk everything issuing it where there was not only no win, but no play.
And note that in his example AxelWolf believes that he "could" have obtained a check. Not that he did. I'd say that his belief is based on misbelief.
The casino never risks everything. They risk maybe getting fined. Do you think that one incident of this nature is going to cause the state police to swarm a casino, shoo everyone out and close it permanently?
Even then, you need what, one or a couple of employees who are willing to do something? I linked to the Rucker story. You mentioned a story. We have self-exclusions who are in the casino still playing...which the casino only really cares about if they hit a jackpot.
You have casinos getting fined for minors gambling, which if the casino were inclined, is probably one of the most fundamental things that the casino could do right.
Hosts have gotten blow and hoes for high-end clients.
You have the case of the one host who would put Free Play on certain cards for confederates to pick up:
https://www.mcall.com/news/breaking/mc-nws-mount-airy-casino-money-laundering-charges-20170707-story.html
So, that's obviously completely illegal. Not everything is a criminal offense, though, sometimes it could just be a person not doing things the correct way. Not every employee in every casino does things legally, correctly and/or by the book 100% of the time. That's just a fact. I don't know what you want from me.
This is the easiest wager.
Axel can either do it or not.
There is no variance like proving you can win and meanwhile everyone has a winning day at some point.
Axel clearly can not do this at just any location. He has a specific means to do it. But the wager isn't that he can do it anywhere, it's that he can do it period
So with that in mind this is your opportunity to make Axel look bad.
Unless of course he actually does it
Quote: MDawgLet's make things nice and sparkling clear. Is this the wager you are proposing.
That:
1. I will meet you in a casino of my choice.
2. You will go up to a slot machine I pick, such that we know you could not have played it before.
3. You will put cash into it. "X dollars"
4. You will not play.
5. You will cash out.
6. We will go directly to the cage and you will get a check for the cash ("X dollars") you input.
7. You will get a W2-G for a hand payout jackpot from that day, after having not played at all, for that slot machine.
(Picture removed)
These proposed terms are obviously ridiculous. If you guys want to make a bet, any chance you could handle it via PM and come back to both post, verbatim, mutually agreed upon terms?
Once they hand you a W2G they assume it's winnings, getting a check at that point is just a matter of asking.Quote: MDawgQuote: Mission146It seems that we are perhaps running into a difference between, "Could not have," and, "Should not have," once again. COULD NOT asks me to assume that casinos do things correctly, legally and by the book 100% of the time. You'll forgive me if that is an assumption I refuse to make, especially in light of widely reported happenings to the contrary.
Is not a W2-G a legal document attesting that a certain dollar win from, in this case, a slot machine was made? The casino would risk everything issuing it where there was not only no win, but no play. There has to be more to this than simply walking up to a slot machine cold, filling it with cash, not spinning the reels even once (no play), cashing out, and then getting a W2-G for a non-existent win.
And note that in his example AxelWolf believes that he "could" have obtained a check. Not that he did. I'd say that his belief is based on misbelief.
As I already stated, there are machines that lock up into hand-pay status JUST FOR CASING OUT.
As I have already stated there have been times where I have had to correct the employees who wanted to incorrectly give me a W2G for just cashing out, and times I have accepted.
You are not thinking of all the possibilities. It's not impossible like you keep claiming.
Quote: MDawgLet's make things nice and sparkling clear. Is this the wager you are proposing.
That:
1. I will meet you in a casino of my choice.
2. You will go up to a slot machine I pick, such that we know you could not have played it before.
3. You will put cash into it. "X dollars"
4. You will not play.
5. You will cash out.
6. We will go directly to the cage and you will get a check for the cash ("X dollars") you input.
7. You will additionally get a W2-G for a hand payout jackpot from that day, after having not played at all, for that slot machine.
You can't be the one who picks the slot because this is almost certainly a situation restricted to certain slots and probably certain Casinos.
It's like if I say I can jump off a 100 foot cliff and survive (because I am jumping into water) and you insist on picking the cliff and choosing one in the desert.
Quote: AxelWolfMinus asking for a check (and I could have received one had I asked, but there was no reason for me to want one) I have received a W2G's for Handpay Jackpots where I simply inserted money and cashed out.
It's not a machine malfunction the machines are set up that way.Quote: MDawgSo, you're talking about a machine malfunction that happened years ago?
It's allready been discussed that this is not the standard and I rejected a bet from coach on a random machine, so I'm not sure why you would make an offer of a bet where you got to pick the machine. Yeah, I know, you are going to claim you didn't read that even tho it was discussed by more than one person.Quote: MDawgLet's make things nice and sparkling clear. Is this the wager you are proposing.
That:
1. I will meet you in a casino of my choice.
2. You will go up to a slot machine I pick, such that we know you could not have played it before.
3. You will put cash into it. "X dollars"
4. You will not play.
5. You will cash out.
6. We will go directly to the cage and you will get a check for the cash ("X dollars") you input.
7. You will additionally get a W2-G for a hand payout jackpot from that day, after having not played at all, for that slot machine.
I have no doubt my attempt would fail if you got to pick the machine and location.
Your offer is an attempt to make it look as though I'm backing out of something as you dang well know I rejected the coach's conditions and stated this is rare situation and not the standard.
MDawg has already submitted that AW would know more about the slot side of casinos than he would.
I don't know what all of this Forum stuff is about here and elsewhere, if you want to know the truth. Being wrong about something isn't that big of a deal. I do it all the time. The second best thing to do is say that you erroneously used the word, "Impossible," to describe something that might be possible in very limited exceptions.
The best thing to do is not use words like, "Impossible," unless you are literally 100% sure about what you are calling impossible, or perhaps better still, not to use the word at all. Of course, there are those who hate it when others qualify their statements...but I won't mention any names.
In any case,
Quote: MDawgWhen was the last time this happened. You referred to a witnessed incident. When was that?
Quote: MDawgI was at the tables winning during the time that this issue with CoachBelly was discussed at length. I also missed pages and pages of something else during another winning session while I was at the tables. I didn't go back and read every post.
In any case,
Let me get this straight.
You were at the tables winning every session and getting comped for it which half the forum refuses to believe so you missed half the convo about Axel being able to get a W2G from a slot without play which you refuse to believe.
Weren't people suggesting this type of stuff wasn't available?Quote: darkozI took this picture yesterday of a E-roulette wager min and max at the casino I passed through.
Quote: AxelWolfWeren't people suggesting this type of stuff wasn't available?Quote: darkozI took this picture yesterday of a E-roulette wager min and max at the casino I passed through.
Yes.
I mean I knew specifically a $10,000 wager was possible because I had passed this machine before.
I just took the pic yesterday so it's not questioned any longer
Quote: Mission146The assumption that the casino gives one single, solitary, lonesome, isolated **** about where the money comes from is a curious one.
Sure, you probably couldn’t walk in and directly tell them it’s drug money, stolen money, whatever…but it’s not like they ask a whole hell of a lot of questions.
If it is over $10k they must report where the money came from. They are resposnible for asking you where it came from. If you say it came from your job, they will ask what you do. If you say lawyer for example they will ask what law firm and the address. They will also run your name through various databases to try and confirm it and make sure that you are not a Politically Exposed Person.
Quote: DRichIf it is over $10k they must report where the money came from. They are resposnible for asking you where it came from. If you say it came from your job, they will ask what you do. If you say lawyer for example they will ask what law firm and the address. They will also run your name through various databases to try and confirm it and make sure that you are not a Politically Exposed Person.
Then I can personally name a bunch of Casinos that simply break the law.
I have personally gambled more than ten thousand in a single day on my own player's card and not had even one single question flung my way as to where I got the money.
At that time I played E-games doey don't for comps.
At the Borgata in AC they only had roulette so we did Roulette.
The two different players cards were taking red vs. black.
It was HUGELY lopsided that one particular day with 80% of the outcomes being on only one side
We repeatedly had to cash out to get the funds recycled.
When we finished we went to check points/slot dollars at the kiosk.
The losing card was perfectly fine. This person had shown over a ten thousand dollars loss and no one gave a rats foot or came to ask questions.
The WINNING side was pin locked. The players happened to be there waiting for a shopping spree so I took the person over.
They were told they had WON more than $10,000 and the casino needed SS info before they could unlock the card.
I was there and witnessed this myself.
Quote: darkozThen I can personally name a bunch of Casinos that simply break the law.
I have personally gambled more than ten thousand in a single day on my own player's card and not had even one single question flung my way as to where I got the money.
On slots they do have a difficult time tracking it in real time. My casino used to run a report in the morning and file CTR's that day when the patron was already gone.
Quote: DRichOn slots they do have a difficult time tracking it in real time. My casino used to run a report in the morning and file CTR's that day when the patron was already gone.
DRich,
I'm talking about me playing $200 per spin, moving plus $20 grand in either direction, winning as much as $18,000 in a single spin and my host aware I am playing
Winning as many as twenty Jackpots and refilling the machine with cash after almost every win.
If the casino can't keep up to ask me questions as I sit for four hours at the same machine pulling $200 per spin chasing a MH, trust me, they just don't care where I got the money
Quote: MDawgCTRs and SARs are filed without notifying you.
I get that
DRich claims after spending $10,000 they are sending someone to verify income, they will ask me where I work, ask for proof of income yadda yadda.
I can attest through personal experience that isn't happening anywhere (that I have played)
I don't understand why you keep mentioning CTR and SAR as some type of gotcha because they are filling those on you too
Assuming you are truthful about $48,000 losses and $38,000 wins all in a lazy summer afternoon
Quote: MDawgI am a credit line player and when I win I almost always pull the winnings via check, so no CTRs or SARs are filed on me whatsoever - unless, I decide to pull cash that day.
And yet getting paid by check is what a launderers wet dream would be.
I really don't care if they file CTR and SAR stuff on me. I don't do crime, I don't launder cash, My taxes are filed and paid, I'm fifty-two with zero felony arrests.
I'm just a guy who likes to gamble with cash.
My general rule of thumb is that IF I just dumped at one casino, and I am really hot in the biscuit to pay them off with winnings from another casino, I will just pull the cash from the winning joint, walk it to other casino and pay off or close to pay off. That way, outgoing CTR filed on me, cancelled out by incoming CTR filed on me.
But most of the time, I don’t care to pay them off instantly, partly because as well, I need to lock in whatever concession I am going to get for the loss, and once I pay it all off I feel like I have lost some leverage, including the leverage obtained by, “I’ll pay it off today, if you discount it _____.” So in this sort of instance where I lost one place and won another, I just take a check for my winnings, and pay the casino where I lost with my own cashier’s check. As you know, that is exactly what happened once this trip.
