Casino Anti Money Laundering and Compliance
Quote: billryanEffective last week, weed shops in Arizona are evidently going cashless. This is a huge development as previously no US banks could touch them. I think the Feds finally realized an all-cash business might not be paying their share of taxes.
Dang, that's why all the hot dog vendors in NY are demanding Visa now.
Not!
Quote: AxelWolf
FYI within the last month, a location tried to give me a W2G when I cashed out accumulated credits, I had to explain to them it wasn't a taxable jackpot and why.
I would guess that it happened at a restricted location (ie. bar, grocery store, or convenience store). Most likely just a case of an uniformed employee as opposed to the properties rule.
Quote: billryanIf I was a BSD and deposited $150,000 upfront cash at a casino, but never tapped it during my stay, I can't ask for a check? That doesn't sound right.
Just noticed this. No, absolutely you may not. Cash in / you’ll get cash back.
Including if he spreads his play out over different tables and casinos to keep it all under 10K / 24 hour at any one casino?
Quote: MDawgIs a casino customer who repeatedly buys in for cash and cashes out for cash, who refuses to identify himself and makes sure that all of his transactions are under the 10K / 24 hour cash reporting requirement guilty of structuring?
Including if he spreads his play out over different tables and casinos to keep it all under 10K / 24 hour at any one casino?
Does he have one of these purposes?
No person shall, for the purpose of evading the reporting requirements of section 5313 (a) or 5325 or any regulation prescribed under any such section, the reporting or record keeping requirements imposed by any order issued under section 5326, or the record keeping requirements imposed by any regulation prescribed under section 21 of the Federal Deposit Insurance Act or section 123 of Public Law 91–508 . . .
But perhaps not because he is afraid of the reports. But afraid of the identification that goes along with the reporting.
A check from a casino is not some magical money cleaning ticket. Depending on the situation, it might make it worse. Whatever caused the money to be dirty didn't go away and now there is an extra layer of paperwork advertising where the money is.
Any claims about difficulties in getting an NV casino to issue a check show an extremely limited view of casino operations. Every casino I go to advertises how easy it is to get a check. "Winning tickets may be mailed in for collection". Just do that and a check from the casino will be mailed back. But that doesn't mean the money has been laundered in any way. If it was dirty before, it will still be dirty even after the check gets cashed.
Quote: TomGGood stuff here, along with a lot of crazy and silly stuff.
Actually I think this thread has already degenerated into the worst thread of 2021. Obscure legalistic quarreling that is a renewal of past feuding; boring to the point of unreadable.
I hope an amorous hippopotamus mounts all of the combatants.
Quote: TomGGood stuff here, along with a lot of crazy and silly stuff.
A check from a casino is not some magical money cleaning ticket. Depending on the situation, it might make it worse. Whatever caused the money to be dirty didn't go away and now there is an extra layer of paperwork advertising where the money is.
Any claims about difficulties in getting an NV casino to issue a check show an extremely limited view of casino operations. Every casino I go to advertises how easy it is to get a check. "Winning tickets may be mailed in for collection". Just do that and a check from the casino will be mailed back. But that doesn't mean the money has been laundered in any way. If it was dirty before, it will still be dirty even after the check gets cashed.
It's easy to get a check if you win. Who said otherwise?
But you can't walk into a casino with cash, NOT play and ask to convert that unplayed cash to a check. That would be straight money laundering.
Now you’re saying it’s impossible again? Axel offered you a bet about this.Quote: MDawg
But you can't walk into a casino with cash, NOT play and ask to convert that unplayed cash to a check. That would be straight money laundering.
Anyone who claims that it is possible to go into a casino and convert unplayed cash to casino check hasn’t tried it today.
Remember this is the same guy who was asking a gambler to “show me the CTR” to prove that he had won, shows how much he knows about any of this, apparently thought that a CTR was a piece of paper that is handed to the gambler on cashing out.
Axel asks for CTR once
Axel doubles down and asks for CTR again
What's interesting is that in the above examples he thinks there must be a CTR and mentions money laundering, so he is aware of the concept, and yet thinks it is possible to convert unplayed cash to casino check somehow.
Quote: MDawgIt's easy to get a check if you win. Who said otherwise?
But you can't walk into a casino with cash, NOT play and ask to convert that unplayed cash to a check. That would be straight money laundering.
I can do it!!!
But I am not interested in how to games.
So here is how and yes it's not available just anywhere, however I don't believe it's money laundering if it's possible to legally do it.
NYS racinos any voucher from a slot (even if cash is inserted and cashed back out) becomes "expired" after 45 days and can only be redeemed at a NYS Lottery office.
They are good for one year but after 45 days you go to the local NYS Lottery office for payment. They usually have one in each Casino and you will get cash but take it to the non Casino location and THEY WILL DEMAND YOU TAKE A CHECK!!!!
I found out the hard way a few years ago when I was in quick need of cash and I was closer to the non-casino office. Ran in, they scanned it, handed me a receipt and said the check would be mailed in a week.
Last thing I wanted was a check lol. Wound up having to dig up the money for my emergency some other way.
Quote: MDawgIs a casino customer who repeatedly buys in for cash and cashes out for cash, who refuses to identify himself and makes sure that all of his transactions are under the 10K / 24 hour cash reporting requirement guilty of structuring?
Including if he spreads his play out over different tables and casinos to keep it all under 10K / 24 hour at any one casino?
No and no.
If all of his transactions are under 10k/24, then they just are. It’s not like he’s trying to make it look like they are when they are not.
Different casinos are different currency transactions.
Also, Running around to different banks to make each deposit or withdrawal under 10K, how is that different from doing the same at different casinos?
Quote: MDawgYou seem to be presuming that each 24 hour buy in was under 10K total, and each 24 hour win total was under 10K.
Please be more specific in your scenarios, then.
Different casinos are definitely different transactions, though.
If you went to five different jewelry stores and spent 10k+ total, you spent it at five different stores.
Would you file a CTR on yourself for spending more than 10k in one day? I don’t believe there’s a requirement that you do that.
It would be extremely easy to get a casino check for money that wasn't won. Anyone who thinks it would not be possible has an extremely limited view of how NV casinos operate. From a different state, but an example of how easy it would be to get a check for almost $30,000, yet only 99.8% of that money was not won from the casino: https://twitter.com/FDSportsbook/status/1387837674543779844. But even if it was paid out in a check (which could easily be done), the original $29,900 would not magically be laundered. If it was dirty before the bet, it would still be dirty. The only way the money would be clean, is if it was clean before the bet was made.
Quote: TomGTurning cash into a check is not money laundering. People do it everyday without it being money laundering. It is possible that turning cash into a check could be used to launder money, but in the vast majority of cases it is not. That is true if the check comes from a casino or anywhere else.
It would be extremely easy to get a casino check for money that wasn't won. Anyone who thinks it would not be possible has an extremely limited view of how NV casinos operate. From a different state, but an example of how easy it would be to get a check for almost $30,000, yet only 99.8% of that money was not won from the casino: https://twitter.com/FDSportsbook/status/1387837674543779844. But even if it was paid out in a check (which could easily be done), the original $29,900 would not magically be laundered. If it was dirty before the bet, it would still be dirty. The only way the money would be clean, is if it was clean before the bet was made.
Why are you bringing facts into a perfectly good rant?
Go into a Vegas casino TODAY, buy in for cash, do not play or do not win – see if they will give you a check for even a penny of your cash.
Why argue with someone who is unwilling or unable to check things out for himself, and simply goes on and on based on what he “thinks” should be.
The example he gave
https://twitter.com/FDSportsbook/status/1387837674543779844
(remove the period)
was an example of what? We don't know if he made the bet with cash. We don't know if he's paid out with cash. Etc.
Quote: billryanWhy are you bringing facts into a perfectly good rant?
Because I have nothing else to do right now other than balance out the people who are so completely clueless and / or dishonest.
Quote: TomGBecause I have nothing else to do right now other than balance out the people who are so completely clueless and / or dishonest.
The difference between you and me is that I’m sitting in a beautiful hotel suite, about to take home six figures winnings, and apparently not agitated or upset enough to revert to having to insult MDawg to try to get a point across.
What’s your excuse for losing control? and calling me clueless or dishonest. Which by the way, it is generally considered poor grammar to use the term “and / or” – a simple or suffices and means the same thing.
It really does come down to some people apparently having no frame of reference with any of this. And going on and on in theory apparently without any real experience. Over the past few years I have received close to a million in winning checks from casinos for table game wins. If those checks somehow represented unplayed cash that I had taken to the casinos that would be money laundering.
These checks – they are not reported as winnings. They are not reported in any way by the casinos. Banks make no reports when I deposit them. It is my obligation, sure, to report the income, but there is no slip going to the federal government notifying them of my receipt of these checks.
Converting cash into (non-reportable) non-currency is what money launderers dream about.
Quote: MDawgTomG doesn’t appear to have tried any of this himself, and certainly not today. Which is my issue with much of the WOV membership – saying things without going in trying it for themselves, today.
Yet you were absolutely certain that the Montreal Canadiens broke quarantine to gamble in Vegas before the Stanley Cup Finals, and mocked anyone who suggested otherwise.
Pot, kettle, etc
Suspending 3 days for personal insult to the person that thought you were referring to him.Quote: TomGBecause I have nothing else to do right now other than balance out the people who are so completely clueless and / or dishonest.
Quote: MDawgThe difference between you and me is that I’m sitting in a beautiful hotel suite, about to take home six figures winnings, and apparently not agitated or upset enough to revert to having to insult MDawg to try to get a point across.
Suspending for 3 7 days for hijacking the thread into being another of his boasts
Warning, but no suspension for borderline thread hijacking.Quote: sabreYet you were absolutely certain that the Montreal Canadiens broke quarantine to gamble in Vegas before the Stanley Cup Finals, and mocked anyone who suggested otherwise.
Pot, kettle, etc
This is not another MDawg squabble thread in spite of some trying to make it one.
Quote: OnceDearSuspending 3 days for personal insult to the person that thought you were referring to him.
I disagree with this Suspension. I believe TomG was referring to me because I made a few minor errors in earlier posts that I should have corrected by now and failed to do so. I took no offense towards TomG's statements, which I believe were meant to hint at me being out of my element on this one.
I also believe he definitely meant that my posts were clueless, not me personally.
I don't know why MDawg would think TomG was hinting at him. All of MDawg's posts in this thread have been almost 100% spot on, as far as I can tell.
With that in mind, TomG's suspension suspended, on condition he confirms that he did not intend to insult MDawg, or anyone else.Quote: Mission146I disagree with this Suspension. I believe TomG was referring to me because I made a few minor errors in earlier posts that I should have corrected by now and failed to do so. I took no offense towards TomG's statements, which I believe were meant to hint at me being out of my element on this one.
I also believe he definitely meant that my posts were clueless, not me personally.
I don't know why MDawg would think TomG was hinting at him. All of MDawg's posts in this thread have been almost 100% spot on, as far as I can tell.
As I pointed out before, getting a check from a casino Without winning is not a difficult task...
Don't waste you time discussing just put your money where you mouth is.... I can either do it or I can't.Quote: MDawgIt’s not worth wasting my time discussing further something he claims was witnessed so long ago that he seems afraid to admit how long ago it happened. And even in that incident he doesn’t claim that he got a check, just claims that he could have.
Anyone who claims that it is possible to go into a casino and convert unplayed cash to casino check hasn’t tried it today.
Remember this is the same guy who was asking a gambler to “show me the CTR” to prove that he had won, shows how much he knows about any of this, apparently thought that a CTR was a piece of paper that is handed to the gambler on cashing out.
Axel asks for CTR once
Axel doubles down and asks for CTR again
What's interesting is that in the above examples he thinks there must be a CTR and mentions money laundering, so he is aware of the concept, and yet thinks it is possible to convert unplayed cash to casino check somehow.
Axel, He can't reply here. maybe next week.Quote: AxelWolfDon't waste you time discussing just put your money where you mouth is.... I can either do it or I can't.Quote: MDawgIt’s not worth wasting my time discussing further something he claims was witnessed so long ago that he seems afraid to admit how long ago it happened. And even in that incident he doesn’t claim that he got a check, just claims that he could have.
Anyone who claims that it is possible to go into a casino and convert unplayed cash to casino check hasn’t tried it today.
Remember this is the same guy who was asking a gambler to “show me the CTR” to prove that he had won, shows how much he knows about any of this, apparently thought that a CTR was a piece of paper that is handed to the gambler on cashing out.
Axel asks for CTR once
Axel doubles down and asks for CTR again
What's interesting is that in the above examples he thinks there must be a CTR and mentions money laundering, so he is aware of the concept, and yet thinks it is possible to convert unplayed cash to casino check somehow.
#SmallBlessings.Quote: OnceDearAxel, He can't reply here.Quote: AxelWolfDon't waste you time discussing just put your money where you mouth is.... I can either do it or I can't.Quote: MDawgIt’s not worth wasting my time discussing further something he claims was witnessed so long ago that he seems afraid to admit how long ago it happened. And even in that incident he doesn’t claim that he got a check, just claims that he could have.
Anyone who claims that it is possible to go into a casino and convert unplayed cash to casino check hasn’t tried it today.
Remember this is the same guy who was asking a gambler to “show me the CTR” to prove that he had won, shows how much he knows about any of this, apparently thought that a CTR was a piece of paper that is handed to the gambler on cashing out.
Axel asks for CTR once
Axel doubles down and asks for CTR again
What's interesting is that in the above examples he thinks there must be a CTR and mentions money laundering, so he is aware of the concept, and yet thinks it is possible to convert unplayed cash to casino check somehow.
#All Good things must come to an end.Quote: OnceDearmaybe next week.Quote: AxelWolfDon't waste you time discussing just put your money where you mouth is.... I can either do it or I can't.Quote: MDawgIt’s not worth wasting my time discussing further something he claims was witnessed so long ago that he seems afraid to admit how long ago it happened. And even in that incident he doesn’t claim that he got a check, just claims that he could have.
Anyone who claims that it is possible to go into a casino and convert unplayed cash to casino check hasn’t tried it today.
Remember this is the same guy who was asking a gambler to “show me the CTR” to prove that he had won, shows how much he knows about any of this, apparently thought that a CTR was a piece of paper that is handed to the gambler on cashing out.
Axel asks for CTR once
Axel doubles down and asks for CTR again
What's interesting is that in the above examples he thinks there must be a CTR and mentions money laundering, so he is aware of the concept, and yet thinks it is possible to convert unplayed cash to casino check somehow.
Quote: AxelWolfAll good things must come to an end.
A lot can happen in a week.
Is it possible to get a suspension while on suspension? I'm thinking yes, and if anyone can do it, I'm sure he canQuote: OnceDearA lot can happen in a week.
Quote: OnceDearWith that in mind, TomG's suspension suspended, on condition he confirms that he did not intend to insult MDawg, or anyone else.
It was a general statement, answering a question from billryan, not directed at anyone. If anyone does think it was directed at them, it might say quite a lot about that person.
In Mission's case, he thinks it might have been directed at him, it says he is willing to accept when he has made a mistake and learn from it.
Quote: AxelWolfIt is certainly more difficult to get a W2G from a location without actually playing and hitting a taxable jackpot(it is possible)
As I pointed out before, getting a check from a casino Without winning is not a difficult task...
I will say yes and no. But what one casino does another one might not, different set of rules, different jurisdictions. As far as limits and mandatory reporting, yes it is federal and the same. But there are plenty of casinos that implement tougher regulations.
Marcus Clark
Real Person; AKA MarcusClark66
Professional Casino Security Expert
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Wonderful, so you also confirm that it is all possible?Quote: Marcusclark66I will say yes and no. But what one casino does another one might not, different set of rules, different jurisdictions. As far as limits and mandatory reporting, yes it is federal and the same. But there are plenty of casinos that implement tougher regulations.
Marcus Clark
Real Person; AKA MarcusClark66
Professional Casino Security Expert
Certified Company Firearms Instructor
Certified Gaming Regulations Interpreter for Corporate Applications
Tic-Tac-Toe Expert (Real Competitive Versions) & Mastering Chess
Honorary & Official #1 Fan of the MDawg Adventures Club
Mastering Cracking it. Bit-by-Bit, Piece-by-Piece Crediting Forum Members
Baccarat Winning Session Record: 7 out of 7 & 1 out of 1 Mini Session
Quote: AxelWolfWonderful, so you also confirm that it is all possible?
It is possible. I have seen it done. But if you request a check with no or limited play and do mot pull it off, I guarantee an SAR will be written with heavy and strong notations that you will wish were never generated!
Marcus Clark
Real Person; AKA MarcusClark66
Professional Casino Security Expert
Certified Company Firearms Instructor
Certified Gaming Regulations Interpreter for Corporate Applications
Tic-Tac-Toe Expert (Real Competitive Versions) & Mastering Chess
Honorary & Official #1 Fan of the MDawg Adventures Club
Mastering Cracking it. Bit-by-Bit, Piece-by-Piece Crediting Forum Members
Baccarat Winning Session Record: 7 out of 7 & 1 out of 1 Mini Session
I agree with most of this, and it was a good post. Casinos don't often offer checks unless its a significant amount, but if you ask for one, oftentimes they will issue one, it's all location dependnat.Quote: AlanMendelsonFirst of all Mdawg wants all of you to know that when he gets checks from casinos from playing table games that the checks represent actual net winnings.
I've called various Vegas casinos and verified this. The rules for getting checks for table players are different than for slot players.
Mdawg brought up this subject again so he could get another pat on the back for his verified winnings.
As far as laundering money goes... yes you can launder money at casinos by simply putting bills into a slot machine then cashing out tickets. In this case the laundering only shows casino play. Probably not enough to hide cash but I dont think the IRS would even bother to check.
Are you able to turn those tickets into a check without hitting a taxable jackpot? I dont know. I never asked.
I do know that casinos usually dont offer checks for small jackpots. They really dont want to issue checks at all. Checks cost them money both in terms of real costs and they want you to have the cash to keep playing.
Has anyone here REALLY been offered a check for a W2G win of less than $10,000??? I know that I havent.
So even you admit it's possible.Quote: Marcusclark66It is possible. I have seen it done. But if you request a check with no or limited play and do mot pull it off, I guarantee an SAR will be written with heavy and strong notations that you will wish were never generated!
Again, its all location dependnat on what they do or don't do, and what rules are actully followed. A money launder would probably have information as to where and what he could get away with. Thats kinda where the conversation went at some point, No?
Quote: AlanMendelsonFirst of all Mdawg wants all of you to know that when he gets checks from casinos from playing table games that the checks represent actual net winnings.
I've called various Vegas casinos and verified this. The rules for getting checks for table players are different than for slot players.
Has anyone here REALLY been offered a check for a W2G win of less than $10,000??? I know that I havent.
Quote: AlanMendelson
Don't we ALL agree that you should NOT get a W2G just for cashing out your own money without any play?
Why would they allow someone to plop money into a slot machine and convert instantly to check without playing, when they disallow conversion of unplayed table game chips to check?
How does this work?
Someplace I read it pays 1000:1?
Elsewhere I read this:
"If the shooter makes 4 points it pays 25:1. For 5 points 250:1 and for 6 points 2500:1."
If he hits it, under what circumstances does the bettor get a 1099? Do they stop the game and get the bettor’s information and issue him an immediate paper 1099?
At Station Casinos (Palms) they have (or rather, had, at Palms) a variety of Baccarat side bets that pay up to 200:1. I cut a shoe once where these exotics kept coming up and the player at the table had a special limit and was betting them up to $100. (versus the usual $50. limit on the 200:1 shots). He took a single $500. chip to a tower that was ridiculously tall. He was winning up to $20,000. for a $100. wager. Every time he won, they would have to phone somewhere, and verify the win, then pay him. It was taking a long time because on that particular shoe the exotics were coming up a lot. I don’t think he was being issued a 1099 every time or any time though, at least I wasn't aware of any paperwork being generated.
ETA: rule also applies to sportsbook bets and poker room, though think there may be a higher threshold for poker tournaments.
Quote: unJonThe rule is if you win a bet that is at least 300:1 and the win is at least $600. It’s a W2G though, not a 1099. It’s the table game rule that picks up the six-point firebet. Yes the game is stopped and they come out and take everyone’s info that bet on it.
ETA: rule also applies to sportsbook bets and poker room, though think there may be a higher threshold for poker tournaments.
I received two 1099s when I was at a table and the shooter made all 6 points in the Firebet.
If you received a W2G it doesn't matter. I'm not going to argue... maybe your casino is different.
My 1099s came from the Rio and Harrah's Rincon from card craps.
Both a 1099 and a W2G can be used the same way when you report casino winnings on your tax return.
The key point is the mandatory withholding for larger table game wins.
I had only $5 on the Firebet so I had no mandatory withholding. At Caesars there was a $10 max Firebet and a $10k win would have required a $2500 mandatory withholding. By the way, Caesars once allowed a $25 max Firebet for a table reserved by some high rollers.
I've received a 1099 anytime I won $1200 or more in a poker tournament regardless of the buy in.
I received many 1099s from Hustler Casino in LA from their Thursday night $200 buy in tournament and I usually won in the range of $1800 for finishing in the top 5.
Quote: unJonAlan you may be right and I may be misremembering on the 1099 vs W2G.
It really doesn't matter. They're treated the same. But Google the Firebet and you'll see 1099s.
Quote: darkozAnd yet getting paid by check is what a launderers wet dream would be.
link to original post
I really don't care if they file CTR and SAR stuff on me. I don't do crime, I don't launder cash, My taxes are filed and paid, I'm fifty-two with zero felony arrests.
I'm just a guy who likes to gamble with cash.
Quote: mdawgAnd yet getting paid by check is what a launderers wet dream would be.
I really don't care if they file CTR and SAR stuff on me. I don't do crime, I don't launder cash, My taxes are filed and paid, I'm fifty-two with zero felony arrests.
I'm just a guy who likes to gamble with cash.
Certainly looks like a lot of players around here and elsewhere are going to have to change a lot of key processes in dealing with cash. All that bitching and moaning and not much of a result.
Quote: AlanMendelsonI received two 1099s when I was at a table and the shooter made all 6 points in the Firebet.
link to original post
If you received a W2G it doesn't matter. I'm not going to argue... maybe your casino is different.
My 1099s came from the Rio and Harrah's Rincon from card craps.
Both a 1099 and a W2G can be used the same way when you report casino winnings on your tax return.
The key point is the mandatory withholding for larger table game wins.
I had only $5 on the Firebet so I had no mandatory withholding. At Caesars there was a $10 max Firebet and a $10k win would have required a $2500 mandatory withholding. By the way, Caesars once allowed a $25 max Firebet for a table reserved by some high rollers.
I've received a 1099 anytime I won $1200 or more in a poker tournament regardless of the buy in.
I received many 1099s from Hustler Casino in LA from their Thursday night $200 buy in tournament and I usually won in the range of $1800 for finishing in the top 5.
Tax
Banks escalate fight over IRS reporting in Biden budget plan
By Brendan Pedersen September 08, 2021, 9:00 p.m. EDT 6 Min Read
WASHINGTON — The financial services sector is girding for an extended battle over a legislative proposal requiring banks and other institutions to report customer account data meant to bring in more federal tax dollars.
The measure is being considered by lawmakers as a source of revenue in the Biden administration's proposed $3.5 trillion budget reconciliation plan. It could result in banks having to report transaction data for any account with at least $600 of inflows or outflows annually.--American Banker 9/8
I wonder if casino cashier cages have to report $600 annually per player? Seems these stupid rules just won't go away.
