Casino Anti Money Laundering and Compliance
Are you able to turn those tickets into a check without hitting a taxable jackpot?
Quote: AlanMendelsonI answered that question in my post.
I don't think that you did answer that question. Your quote above is a question.
Quote: coachbellyWhen did I say that you did?
You didn't say much.
What would the betting scenario be to (nearly) guarantee a a W2G?
Pass (with Odds) and a high enough max bet allowed. You could Don’t Pass to offset and even hedge 12 if you wanted.
Field Bet if you could get $600 down, but I don’t think I’ve personally seen a max on E-Craps that high.
Prop bets that let you bet enough could do it, but would be nowhere near virtually guaranteeing 150k on 10k to lose. The expected loss is too high.
Roulette it depends how much you could get down. Pretty high house edge, though, so not sure you could make it a virtual guarantee. You’d have to go $150 on all Even Money bets and either $150 on all, “12’s” bets OR $150 on all dozens (up top) and probably hedge zeroes to be safe. You could over hedge the zeroes in a way that would result in a W2G if it would let you bet enough.
E-Blackjack, if you could bet enough.
Another thing is I’m answering for 10k to get 150k in W2-G, which is ridiculously specific. There are other ways to do it if more than 10k can be potentially lost.
Quote: darkozSeriously?
$300 on pass, take full odds on point
A Confederate takes $300 on Don't pass full odds same point.
One person puts $10 on the 12.
Point made, total actual expenditure is ten bucks. Side that wins gets W2G.
That is practically AP 101!
EDIT: I'm used to NY and their $600 status. So make it $600 on both sides for majority of Casinos and $20 on the 12 but you get the idea
The entire discussion to this point has been about a player playing slot machines.
Now you are talking about confederates playing an E-Craps.
I don't believe that this is the scenario you were referring in your earlier posts....was it?
Anyway...do those betting conditions exist for E-Craps? Isn't there a betting limit?
Quote: coachbelly
Anyway...do those betting conditions exist for E-Craps? Isn't there a betting limit?
No, everyone in this thread except MDawg has made everything up and has no first hand knowledge of anything. Thankfully we have you to come along and question it all to death.
Quote: coachbellyUnder what conditions playing E-Craps that exist?
What would the betting scenario be to (nearly) guarantee a a W2G with each roll?
Did you or did you not ask specifically about ECraps?????
You come in here, change the subject to ECraps, then whine that's not what we were talking about.
SmH
Quote: coachbellyThe entire discussion to this point has been about a player playing slot machines.
Now you are talking about confederates playing an E-Craps.
I don't believe that this is the scenario you were referring in your earlier posts....was it?
Anyway...do those betting conditions exist for E-Craps? Isn't there a betting limit?
He wasn’t the first to bring up E-Craps, so don’t blame him. I brought it up first.
This entire discussion has been pointless for quite some time, so I really shouldn’t be helping continue this. The original point was whether or not a slot player could be down overall and still receive a check, which a slot player could definitely do.
Point being, we’re so far removed from the original line that any complaints about deviating from the matter at hand are meaningless.
Quote: Mission146Another thing is I’m answering for 10k to get 150k in W2-G, which is ridiculously specific.
That's the scenario that DO originally proposed, that a 10K bankroll would generate 150K in W2Gs.
If your point is that it's ridiculous, then I will concede that point.
But your explanation above is filled with a lot of "ifs", as though you're not sure if the conditions you outlined actually exist.
Are you sure that the limits you outlined are available?
Quote: sabreNo, everyone in this thread except MDawg has made everything up and has no first hand knowledge of anything. Thankfully we have you to come along and question it all to death.
That’s unfair to MarcusClark, who is also aware of every single aspect of casino operations and is qualified to confirm everything MDawg says as being infallible.
Quote: darkozDid you or did you not ask specifically about ECraps?????
You come in here, change the subject to ECraps, then whine that's not what we were talking about.
SmFH
I was the first to bring up E-Craps.
In many cases, it is also about converting a truckload of small bills to a couple of backpacks worth of big bills to move them.
Quote: coachbellyQuote: AlanMendelson
Are you able to turn those tickets into a check without hitting a taxable jackpot?
I don't think that you did answer that question. Your quote above is a question.
I wrote I dont know. My answer is still I dont know.
Quote: darkozYou come in here, change the subject to ECraps, then whine that's not what we were talking about.
I didn't change the subject to E-Craps.
Read the thread before all the knee-jerk reactions, comments and head-shaking.
Quote: coachbellyUnder what conditions playing E-Craps that exist?
What would the betting scenario be to (nearly) guarantee a a W2G with each roll?
Mission, even if you brought it up first, Coach asked a direct question about how ECraps could be used to money launder.
For him to then receive a satisfactory answer and say, hey that isn't what we were talking about is ridiculous.
He really just didn't like the fact that we knew how to do it and he didn't.
Coach, if you wanted the conversation to stay on slots then you should never have asked the question above.
Quote: coachbellyThat's the scenario that DO originally proposed, that a 10K bankroll would generate 150K in W2Gs.
If your point is that it's ridiculous, then I will concede that point.
But your explanation above is filled with a lot of "ifs", as though you're not sure if the conditions you outlined actually exist.
Are you sure that the limits you outlined are available?
He was giving an example.
I’m at home at this precise moment, so I am in no position to confirm or deny that those precise conditions are available this very second. I’m certain that is the standard to which I would be held.
Yes, I use, “Ifs,” when making statements hypothetically related to things that I am less than precisely 100% sure about. At least, I try to. God knows someone would call me out on it immediately if I did otherwise or only implied a conditional.
Quote: AlanMendelsonMy answer is still I dont know.
You answered your own question, but not my question.
It wasn't clear to me if you meant requesting a check from a slot attendant at cash out, or redeeming slot tickets at the cage and requesting a check from the cage attendant.
What did you mean?
Quote: darkozMission, even if you brought it up first, Coach asked a direct question about how ECraps could be used to money launder.
For him to then receive a satisfactory answer and say, hey that isn't what we were talking about is ridiculous.
He really just didn't like the fact that we knew how to do it and he didn't.
Coach, if you wanted the conversation to stay on slots then you should never have asked the question above.
They are being treated as slots if they issue a W2-G for that amount. W2-G’s on Table Games require that the winnings be a certain multiple (or more) of the amount bet. I believe that multiple is 600x, but would have to look it up again to be sure.
Quote: Mission146He was giving an example.
I’m at home at this precise moment, so I am in no position to confirm or deny that those precise conditions are available this very second. I’m certain that is the standard to which I would be held.
Yes, I use, “Ifs,” when making statements hypothetically related to things that I am less than precisely 100% sure about. At least, I try to. God knows someone would call me out on it immediately if I did otherwise or only implied a conditional.
Betting limits are different for Casinos, high limit areas, and geographic location.
I have seen on E-roulette as low as $99 max and as high as $10,000 max although that's not for a single wager but total wagers.
Trust me, if I can make a $10,000 wager for the table in Roulette I can guarantee a jackpot.
I happen to be passing through a casino tomorrow that has the $10,000 limit on E-roulette. I will take a snapshot.
Quote: billryanWhy would anyone want a W2-G? The idea of money laundering isn't to convert it to money you owe taxes on. It's to convert it to after-tax money without actually paying taxes on it.
In many cases, it is also about converting a truckload of small bills to a couple of backpacks worth of big bills to move them.
I think youd have a harder time moving $100 bills than twenties. There aren't many stores that will accept too many $100s. Car dealers won't. Tiffany's won't. Supermarkets won't.
Money laundering is all about converting suspicious cash into assets that can be used without obstacles.
Having W2Gs doesn't mean you have taxable profits. Having casino checks doesn't mean taxable profits either.
If you really want to launder money you buy a business that takes a lot of cash: car washes, gas stations, convenience stores, souvenir shops, restaurants, snack bars... places where you can add dirty money to clean receipts.
That's where you soil unused table cloths to justify the extra 20% of cash.
I'll show you how it's done. LOL
Quote: darkozHe really just didn't like the fact that we knew how to do it and he didn't.
I explained how to use E-Craps to redeem nearly 100% of free play years ago.
What I don't know is if the playing conditions you outlined actually exist.
What are the typical betting limits on the E-Craps machines?
I haven't seen any of those machines in the high-limit rooms.
Quote: coachbellyI explained how to use E-Craps to redeem nearly 100% of free play years ago.
What I don't know is if the playing conditions you outlined actually exist.
What are the typical betting limits on the E-Craps machines?
I haven't seen any of those machines in the high-limit rooms.
I just answered you above
Quote: coachbellyYou answered your own question, but not my question.
It wasn't clear to me if you meant requesting a check from a slot attendant at cash out, or redeeming slot tickets at the cage and requesting a check from the cage attendant.
What did you mean?
No matter what answer I give you it will only lead to more questions. Just like in the other thread.
As they say on Shark Tank.... and for that reason I'm out.
Quote: coachbellyI explained how to use E-Craps to redeem nearly 100% of free play years ago.
What I don't know is if the playing conditions you outlined actually exist.
What are the typical betting limits on the E-Craps machines?
I haven't seen any of those machines in the high-limit rooms.
I definitely recall an E-Craps game upon which you could make a $300 line bet, main floor. Assuming you could bet odds (as opposed to a hard max of $300 in total bets), there you go.
It was only 2x odds, but recall that slot W2-G relates to the total payout, which includes the amount wagered. Even if you could only take 1x odds, the result would be a W2-G.
Actually, maybe it was 3-4-5x odds, anyway. I’m going to need to start remembering to take pictures of every machine I encounter for as long as I live, and to make note of the date, place and time, in case I find myself in future pointless discussions that make me regret ever learning how to communicate with other people.
Quote: Mission146I definitely recall an E-Craps game upon which you could make a $300 line bet, main floor. Assuming you could bet odds (as opposed to a hard max of $300 in total bets), there you go.
It was only 2x odds, but recall that slot W2-G relates to the total payout, which includes the amount wagered. Even if you could only take 1x odds, the result would be a W2-G.
The Nevada Gaming Commission considers E-craps to be a slot machine. I asked them.
Quote: darkozif I can make a $10,000 wager for the table in Roulette I can guarantee a jackpot.
For the purpose of laundering money?
How would you get $10K into the machine without being detected?
How many times would that work without being detected?
Quote: AlanMendelsonThe Nevada Gaming Commission considers E-craps to be a slot machine. I asked them.
Yes, precisely because it is electronic.
However, they should be considered fair. At least, in Nevada, because they have a physical representation of an actual gambling component, the probabilities must correspond.
By the way, I added a joke to that post.
Or, maybe it wasn’t a joke.
I’m sometimes not sure these days.
Quote: Mission146I definitely recall an E-Craps game upon which you could make a $300 line bet, main floor. Assuming you could bet odds (as opposed to a hard max of $300 in total bets), there you go.
It was only 2x odds, but recall that slot W2-G relates to the total payout, which includes the amount wagered. Even if you could only take 1x odds, the result would be a W2-G.
Besides at ECraps you can easily overcome it. Would go slower but you just play max and take max odds on every point. If there was some table max for a single wager, that prevents you from triggering a W2G, you could still force W2G the game by having multiple points paid out on each seven out, where multiple decisions at table max, max odds would trigger.
You could even checkerboard to guarantee that both you and your Confederate got W2-G's at the exact same time
Quote: coachbellyFor the purpose of laundering money?
How would you get $10K into the machine without being detected?
How many times would that work without being detected?
Why would I need or want to go undetected?
I'm trying to prove I won the money, not stole it.
Quote: coachbellyFor the purpose of laundering money?
How would you get $10K into the machine without being detected?
How many times would that work without being detected?
Have you ever considered using your intelligence to engage in a meaningful conversation? You’re clearly a smart guy.
Do you expect that DarkOz is going to go to the casino and start doing it just to determine how many times he can without detection. Also, what do you mean by, “Detection?” It doesn’t sound like he has any money needing laundered, so there’s nothing to detect.
Quote: sabreThankfully we have you to come along and question it all to death.
The discussion is about laundering money in casinos.
If someone claims that it can be done by making a series of $10K bets on E-Roulette
then yes, I'll question it until it's clear to me that it can be done as claimed.
You're welcome.
Quote: coachbellyThe discussion is about laundering money in casinos.
If someone claims that it can be done by making a series of $10K bets on E-Roulette
then yes, I'll question it until it's clear to me that it can be done as claimed.
You're welcome.
Here is a question for you Coach and the rest of the people in this discussion
It's a guess the casino reaction question.
A man walks into a casino and inserts $10,000 into an E-Craps or E-roulette game and makes a $10,000 wager.
Does the Casino
A) surround him with security guards and ask what is he doing?
B) send a host to introduce himself to their new favorite high roller?
Go ahead, I am interested in how you view Casino guest interaction.
Quote: Mission146Have you ever considered using your intelligence to engage in a meaningful conversation? You’re clearly a smart guy.
Do you expect that DarkOz is going to go to the casino and start doing it just to determine how many times he can without detection. Also, what do you mean by, “Detection?” It doesn’t sound like he has any money needing laundered, so there’s nothing to detect.
This discussion is about using casinos to launder money.
No need to opine on whether the discussion is meaningful or not.
I don't expect DO to actually attempt to simulate money-laundering, but I suspect that the launderer would not want his activity to be detected.
I do have expectations that DO's explanations of how it can be done are reality-based.
Running $10K through slot machines to reliably generate $150K in W2Gs doesn't seem realistic.
Making a series of $10K E-Roulette bets doesn't seem realistic either, even if those limits are available.
I'd like to seem him take a photo of someone doing that.
Quote: darkozWhy would I need or want to go undetected?
I'm trying to prove I won the money, not stole it.
You would not want to be detected providing the illicit cash that you want to launder.
I suspect that repeatedly feeding $10K in cash into an E-Roulette machine would be detected.
Quote: coachbellyThis discussion is about using casinos to launder money.
No need to opine on whether the discussion is meaningful or not.
I don't expect DO to actually attempt to simulate money-laundering, but I suspect that the launderer would not want his activity to be detected.
I do have expectations that DO's explanations of how it can be done are reality-based.
Running $10K through slot machines to reliably generate $150K in W2Gs doesn't seem realistic.
Making a series of $10K E-Roulette bets doesn't seem realistic either, even if those limits are available.
I'd like to seem him take a photo of someone doing that.
This being a discussion forum, I’ll opine about whatever the hell I want to, and thank you.
It’s an interesting hypothetical of whether you could do it. But it’s a house of cards that will provide no protection when the feds are on the trail.
Quote: coachbellyYou would not want to be detected providing the illicit cash that you want to launder.
I suspect that repeatedly feeding $10K in cash into an E-Roulette machine would be detected.
Why? You are going to win and lose almost fifty% of the time but get paid a handpay 100% of the time and each handpay will be for BOTH the win and the initial wager. That's how E-games work.
So you insert $10,000 and take a wager and win. You get paid in cash $20,000 and now have no money in the machine.
What does the casino expect you to do? You gotta put money back in the machine
Do that enough times and I guarantee you do not get security watching you. You get a host, tickets to a show and maybe even a free room.
And yet, even though money was repeatedly put into the machine, much of it was the same initial money because of the way E-games work so, what's suspicious?
Quote: darkozGo ahead, I am interested in how you view Casino guest interaction.
I suspect that an action would be required by floor personnel before the bet would be accepted, similar to whatever action is/was required to activate the double-up feature for a VP machine.
Quote: unJonThe idea that laundering money this way is a good idea is completely silly. Sure the IRS isn’t going to question DarkOz paying taxes. But if the feds suspect DO of being a drug dealer and get his tax returns they will see right through the scam. No one will believe all the income comes from playing high stakes slots or ecraps.
It’s an interesting hypothetical of whether you could do it. But it’s a house of cards that will provide no protection when the feds are on the trail.
If the feds suspect drug dealing they still have to prove it. They can't haul you into court and say, well he wins in Casinos so we suspect he really sells drugs.
Quote: Mission146This being a discussion forum, I’ll opine about whatever the hell I want to, and thank you.
Of course, but there's no need to opine, because...that's just like your opinion, man
Quote: coachbellyI suspect that an action would be required by floor personnel before the bet would be accepted, similar to whatever action is/was required to activate the double-up feature for a VP machine.
What? You just making this up as you go?
Either it's programed to take the wager or not
There aren't any optional features at E-games for players to make requests on I have ever seen
Quote: darkozIf the feds suspect drug dealing they still have to prove it. They can't haul you into court and say, well he wins in Casinos so we suspect he really sells drugs.
That’s not what I said. And your last sentence is backwards. They only get to your laundering story after suspecting you.
Quote: darkozwhat's suspicious?
The initial $10K cash deposit is suspicious.
What combination of roulette bets whose sum=$10K can you make that would guarantee a $20K payout?
Quote: unJonThe idea that laundering money this way is a good idea is completely silly. Sure the IRS isn’t going to question DarkOz paying taxes. But if the feds suspect DO of being a drug dealer and get his tax returns they will see right through the scam. No one will believe all the income comes from playing high stakes slots or ecraps.
It’s an interesting hypothetical of whether you could do it. But it’s a house of cards that will provide no protection when the feds are on the trail.
I think what we have learned is that being a drug dealer is a very problematic occupation.
At least we have all learned something from this line of discussion. Of course, it was probably something we already believed anyway…but let’s take what wins we can out of this.
Quote: unJonThat’s not what I said. And your last sentence is backwards. They only get to your laundering story after suspecting you.
Well, if they have suspicion on a drug dealer and that leads them to the money laundering that would make sense. After all, they have reason to believe he is dealing drugs.
But the laundering through winning in a casino isn't inherently suspicious on its own. Otherwise every high roller would be suspected of laundering and drug dealing
Quote: coachbellyI suspect that an action would be required by floor personnel before the bet would be accepted, similar to whatever action is/was required to activate the double-up feature for a VP machine.
There would absolutely be a CTR at the 10k point.
Or, I guess I’d better say, “Almost absolutely,” even though I am agreeing with you. 10k cash known is a mandatory CTR.
Quote: unJonThe idea that laundering money this way is a good idea is completely silly.
Agreed, but some seem to think otherwise.
Quote: coachbellyOf course, but there's no need to opine, because...that's just like your opinion, man
Yes. I’ve been quite undude in this thread. I’m going to start abiding now.
Quote: Mission146There would absolutely be a CTR at the 10k point.
Wouldn't that require identification?
