Quote: MaxPenthe guy was a leftist ANTIFA supporter.
He was ex-military and a gun lover. I thought leftists hated guns and the military?
Quote:Guess he was upset nothing happened yesterday to start the civil war, he so much wanted.
I think the years of documented mental illness and criminal activity might be a bit more related than some imaginary civil war some angsty teenagers on the internet were trying to start.
Quote: MaxPenWas a white church and the guy was a leftist ANTIFA supporter. .
Quote: TigerWuHe was ex-military and a gun lover. I thought leftists hated guns and the military?
I think the years of documented mental illness and criminal activity might be a bit more related than some imaginary civil war some angsty teenagers on the internet were trying to start.
Russian trolls are pushing fake news
Maxpen pushing fake news
hmm
Max, you from Russia? lol
Total fruitcake. Politics had nothing to do with it.
Quote:the guy was a leftist ANTIFA supporter.
Whenever I see the term leftist in the same sentence as ANTIFA I bust out laughing.
What's sad is few people will understand why, because the definition of fascism has been intentionally perverted in recent years.
Quote: speedycrapRIP.
I pray that one day all this insanity will stop.
Boy that's ironic. Pray for people who got killed while praying. I guess they didn't pray correctly or there is no God, or god is evil.
Quote:Investigators said Sunday’s church massacre in Texas occurred amid an ongoing “domestic situation” involving the gunman and his relatives, at least one of whom had attended the church.
While authorities have not publicly identified a motive for the attack, they emphasized Monday that the shooting did not appear to be fueled by racial or religious issues. They said the gunman’s mother-in-law had attended the church but was not there Sunday, and that the shooter had sent “threatening texts” as part of the family dispute.
“This was not racially motivated, it wasn’t over religious beliefs,” Freeman Martin of the Texas Department of Public Safety said at a news briefing. “There was a domestic situation going on within the family and the in-laws.”
https://www.msn.com/en-us/news/breakingnews/texas-massacre-followed-%E2%80%98domestic-situation%E2%80%99-involving-gunmans-family-his-mother-in-law-had-attended-the-church/ar-AAuuLAo?li=BBmkt5R&ocid=spartanntp
Quote: terapinedMaxpen pushing fake news
Must be a day ending in "y" then...
Quote: MaxPenWas a white church and the guy was a leftist ANTIFA supporter. .
Quote: MaxPenHe was deep in liberal groups, look up his affiliations, his groups and friends. ............ I am not one to wait for MSM to spoon feed me their narrative.
Gee Max
Maybe you should wait for MSM instead of jumping to outright lies about the shooter
Will Max man up and admit a mistake
Or
Maybe go all in ala Alex Jones and claim its all fake using actors
ROTFL
"Answer not a fool according to his folly or you yourself will be just like him."
I wish as a society that we could get passed all of the hate and bigotry.
Quote: KeyserThe guy hated religious people and was an atheist. Sounds like another bigoted lefty to me.
During the press conference today, they said this was not motivated by race, religion, or politics. It was a domestic issue (he was likely targeting his mother-in-law).
Please take your complete BS elsewhere.
Quote: KeyserThe guy hated religious people and was an atheist. Sounds like another bigoted lefty to me.
I wish as a society that we could get passed all of the hate and bigotry.
Obviously due to your 1st sentence, you cant get past your hatred
You are probably on the right and probably voted for Trump. No way does that make you a bigot to me.
yet
I lean left
and you consider me a bigot because I am on the left? That's certainly a valid assumption considering your 1st sentence
sad
Maybe you are the problem
whether or not they are religious, who they voted for, their skin color, whether or not they drive a truck, whether or not they like football or Nascar, and whether or not they own a gun or rifle.
Quote: ams288During the press conference today, they said this was not motivated by race, religion, or politics. It was a domestic issue (he was likely targeting his mother-in-law).
Please take your complete BS elsewhere.
Your beloved media has also been claiming the shooter took his own life with a self inflicted gunshot wound.
Here is the interview with the guy who ended the situation.
Quote: KeyserThe guy hated religious people and was an atheist. Sounds like another bigoted lefty to me.
I wish as a society that we could get passed all of the hate and bigotry.
One can be liberal and a Christian. Even a Baptist. There are plenty of liberal thinking people in my Christian church.
In this guy's case, he was a typical dildo wife-beater and child-abuser who was able to buy some big-ass guns because the Air Force never reporting his convictions. And unfortunately, a-holes can be of either political stripe. And there are thousands of these little bombs, just waiting to go off, and they are going off these days about once a month.
I really don't care if this guy jerked off to pictures of Trump in tennis shorts or pleasured himself at photoshopped (or real one) pictures of Janet Reno and Hillary scissoring. He was able to go out, legally purchase 4 guns, load it up with how many ever rounds he wanted to, and have at it, killing or injuring everyone at that church, until yes, a good guy with a gun was able to react, after the bad guy with a gun ripped 26 hearts out of a community.
What would have happened if there were "no guys" with a gun? Or one guy with a single handgun able to fire 10 rounds? However about we replace the second amendment with the right to own and keep rocks. You want to spend $1,000 on a large rock? Go for it. Spend $10 on hundreds of pebbles? Heck, even create slingshots. Go for it. A catapult? Fine. The 2nd Amendment is just plain stupid. The Constitution is a living document, subject to revision, subject to change. Idiots created the 18th Amendment (Prohibition) and it got repealed. Time to change the 2nd to take mass killing devices off the streets.
People scream, "there's nothing we can do?" Bull. Government make a change in policy on a dime. They can do something here. Culture can change.
And folks, the government's got drones. If the government wanted to get you, they will. No need for you to disarm. Because no gun is going to save one's sorry ass from a government drone dropping munitions from 5,000 feet run by a guy sitting in an air conditioned air force base in Florida. No AR-45 is going to save you from that. There will be no public uprising to stop any government. That ship has sailed. If there was no uprising in the reign of king Obama, then when will there be.
Some people like anuses.Quote: DrawingDeadWelcome to WoV Forum, the official anus of the internet.
Quote: MaxPenYour beloved media has also been claiming the shooter took his own life with a self inflicted gunshot wound.
I'll take the MSM's word over 4chan any day of the week...
Quote: ams288During the press conference today, they said this was not motivated by race, religion, or politics. It was a domestic issue (he was likely targeting his mother-in-law).
But then again, you have to ask why he was targeting his mother-in-law, assuming he was. Maybe they got into a heated religious argument of some sort? "Motivated by religion" could mean any number of things.
Quote: KeyserI refuse to judge or hate someone based on...whether or not they are religious,
???
You just judged the shooter based on his religious beliefs.
Quote: MaxPenYour beloved media has also been claiming the shooter took his own life with a self inflicted gunshot wound.
What makes you think he didn't?
Quote: MaxPenYour beloved media has also been claiming the shooter took his own life with a self inflicted gunshot wound.
???
Query: How does someone get hit by rifle fire at fairly close range and not go down on the spot or at least relatively near it?
It seems 450 rounds were fired. At targets selected in the following order:
Audiovisual crew and equipment
Babies
Those trying to use cell phones.
450 rounds is quite a lot to try to escape from. It would have taken just ONE parishioner who was strapped. Apparently none were.
What is that problem?
Well lets take the vegas shooting first. Lets say gun advocates argue there needs to be law abiding citizens carrying to stop a possible gunman. The Gunman himself was one of those law abiding citizens until the moment he began his rampage
So next week when the mandalay bay sees a customer checking in with an assault rifle and the guest says he is just carrying it so he can stop other possible shooters...
Well..how is that going to handled
Some repubs hav claimed now parishioners should carry guns. The shooter was a parishioner of that church. Would have been even easier for him to get the guns in if that was the case. How are churchs and casinos or anyine going to determine just who are the shooters and who the protectors
Some dude just ran over a bunch of people in New York with an automatic truck. You want to ban pickups?
And most likely that guy with the gun is the mass shooter. Not the protector excercising his constitutional rights
That's like, a lot of really bad examples though... The US has "x" amount of non gun related murders too, but does Brazil have as many gun deaths as us? How about mass shootings? Same question for all of them... Does mexico have a mass shooting every other month? Does brazil? Does NY have a "mass truck attack" every couple months? No. We have MASS SHOOTINGS every other month, and no other place with sensible gun laws seems to.Quote: MaxPenBrazil outlawed guns and has close to 60,000 murders per year. Guns are outlawed in Mexico. No one ever gets shot in Mexico....lol.
Some dude just ran over a bunch of people in New York with an automatic truck. You want to ban pickups?
https://m.youtube.com/watch?v=E6jzzh-FZgs
Quote: MaxPenBrazil outlawed guns and has close to 60,000 murders per year. Guns are outlawed in Mexico. No one ever gets shot in Mexico....lol.
So what about countries like Japan, Singapore, South Korea, Poland, Romania, the U.K., Germany, Norway, Austria, etc., that have far fewer guns than the U.S., and far fewer murders than the U.S (all per capita)?
Source: https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/List_of_countries_by_firearm-related_death_rate
EDIT: Oh, by the way, guns are not outlawed in either Brazil OR Mexico. I don't know where you got that information.
Quote: darkozAnd then there is this problem with gun laws as demonstrated by this (i should say daring) experiment
https://m.youtube.com/watch?v=E6jzzh-FZgs
Daring is right. Lucky the second guy didn't get hurt.
Guns are not the problem here, and neither are gun laws. Messing with either one of those things is just a band-aid.
Quote: FleaStiff
Query: How does someone get hit by rifle fire at fairly close range and not go down on the spot or at least relatively near it?
The only "insta-kill" shot is CNS. Brain, brain stem, spinal cord. All very small profile relative to the body and difficult to hit, hence bloody and on the run.
CNS aside, guns kill by blood loss. A .223 / 5.56 is a very small round relative to the common calibers out there. I don't get much into wonky rounds like the .32mag, so for common rounds, only the .22 and .17 are smaller. In addition, the .223 is a very fast round. Whereas a slow, fat round like a shotgun slug will peel completely inside out as it expands while passing through medium, a .223 has more tendency to zip right through and retain its shape (assuming he wasn't using frag rounds). My 5.56 is currently buried, but these Russian truck stoppers I got on my table here (7.62x54R) are slimmer than a Bic pen. The .223 are ~25% thinner than even those.
I've not heard where Good Guy with a Gun hit him, but unless it's in a vital organ or major artery, the guy could have taken hours to bleed out, if he bled out at all. That's why we civilized folk don't hunt deer with these things.
Quote: boymimboWhat would have happened if there were "no guys" with a gun? Or one guy with a single handgun able to fire 10 rounds? However about we replace the second amendment with the right to own and keep rocks. You want to spend $1,000 on a large rock? Go for it. Spend $10 on hundreds of pebbles? Heck, even create slingshots. Go for it. A catapult? Fine. The 2nd Amendment is just plain stupid. The Constitution is a living document, subject to revision, subject to change. Idiots created the 18th Amendment (Prohibition) and it got repealed. Time to change the 2nd to take mass killing devices off the streets.
Oh, you made it difficult for me to resist responding to emotion. I've got a hold of myself this second, no promises for the end of this post ;)
Here's a thought for y'all...
The "self loading rifle", what we now call semi-automatic, was invented in 1885. I would imagine it was mostly a trinket, some new fangled tech that ain't gonna replace yer gol'durn boomstick. It took 36 years for a reasonable and reliable "machine gun" to find use, which Thompson did in 1921 with the Thompson Submachine Gun, or "Tommy Gun". Especially being this is a Vegas heavy audience, everyone should be familiar with the Tommy Gun. It was the Thompson, and its popularity with crims, mobsters, and train robbers that caused the 1934 National Firearms Act, placing full auto's in a very hard-to-get category. It was 50+ years after its inception that semi's found wide spread use, which they did in WWI in the M1 Garand.
In 1964, Colt made the AR-15 (not "45" ;)). It is the civilian (aka semi automatic) version of the Armed Force's select fire M-16, the gun that found its fame in Vietnam. 1964. Fifty...three years ago. 53 years the AR-15 has existed.
For most of our entire lifetimes, we never even heard "AR-15" or "Bushmaster" or "Armalite" unless you were a gunner, a soldier, or loved you some mid 90's gangsta rap. The "in the news" pieces were always 9mm handguns, Uzi SMG's, and MAC-10 machine pistols. These were what gangbagers toted. Rifles were something grandpa had.
I reckon it was Clinton and that @#$% Feinstein who sparked it, though you may feel free to argue. In 1994 they popped in with the 1994 Federal Assault Weapons Ban. It had that wonderful verbiage that made it wholly unclear as to what constituted an "assault rifle", but its purpose pretty much worked. It was dead balls hard to acquire a modern, composite, semi automatic rifle with any accessories whatsoever. So what do you think happened in 2004 when the ban expired? Same f#$%ing thing after Hook. Gunners went batshit. Bought as many as they could find. With help, of course, from pro-gun sources. Advertising, sales, the whole shootin' match. Flood the market, get em while you can.
The above is little more than a history lesson, some fact to go along with the wild speculations and shaky stances some folks have. But it causes me at least to have one nagging question - One hundred and thirty two years of semi automatic's existence. Fifty three years since the birth of the AR-15. Two hundred and twenty six years of the Right to Bear Arms. Why is it NOW that mass shootings seem to be a thing?
This isn't a false flag, Alex Jones question. It MIGHT have 24/7 news connections, but that's not my point, either. What I really want to know, and what I really want to ask is - Why now?
And I didn't even get emotional =)
PS - I do like boymimbo's idea, so if anyone wants my tacti-cool, full auto capable AR-15, I will trade it straight up for one (1) working and assembled trebuchet. Must be able to fling a 1978 Datsun 720 minimum 200yds. PM if interested.
Quote: Face
This isn't a false flag, Alex Jones question. It MIGHT have 24/7 news connections, but that's not my point, either. What I really want to know, and what I really want to ask is - Why now?
More people + more guns + more media hype + more inflammatory politicians = more shootings.
Quote: TigerWuSo what about countries like Japan, Singapore, South Korea, Poland, Romania, the U.K., Germany, Norway, Austria, etc., that have far fewer guns than the U.S., and far fewer murders than the U.S (all per capita)?
Source: https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/List_of_countries_by_firearm-related_death_rate
EDIT: Oh, by the way, guns are not outlawed in either Brazil OR Mexico. I don't know where you got that information.
Oh yes, Norway, home of the largest mass shooting ever.
Quote: MaxPenOh yes, Norway, home of the largest mass shooting ever.
Yes.
Was that supposed to refute any of the points I made?
Quote: TigerWuMore people + more guns + more media hype + more inflammatory politicians = more shootings.
I would say that's accurate, but I would add a lot of very frustrated men who don't function well in the modern job or social market, acting out of despair and anger, wanting to make their mark in the world.
NYT has a study in it today, comparing rates among all nations with more than 10m citizens. The only correlation they found was the amount of guns per person in our country vs. everywhere else.
What Explains U.S. Mass Shootings? International Comparisons Suggest an Answer https://nyti.ms/2hODjP5
Quote: MaxPenI'm pretty sure all these pharmaceuticals for the mentally ill is not helping either.
Not a significant factor, according to the article.
Quote: NYT
If mental health made the difference, then data would show that Americans have more mental health problems than do people in other countries with fewer mass shootings. But the mental health care spending rate in the United States, the number of mental health professionals per capita and the rate of severe mental disorders are all in line with those of other wealthy countries.
A 2015 study estimated that only 4 percent of American gun deaths could be attributed to mental health issues. And Mr. Lankford, in an email, said countries with high suicide rates tended to have low rates of mass shootings — the opposite of what you would expect if mental health problems correlated with mass shootings.
And here's an amazing statistic: The US, with 4.4% of the world's population, owns 42% of the world's guns.
Why, what kind of guns do the deer have? Muskets? Black powder?Quote: Face. That's why we civilized folk don't hunt deer with these things.
Quote:A video camera captured the blood bath inside the church, which left 26 people dead and 20 wounded —The official estimated that the shooting in the video lasted about seven minutes.
The gunman --fired continuously for several minutes, methodically shooting his victims — including small children — in the head,
https://www.msn.com/en-us/news/us/texas-church-shooting-video-shows-a-methodical-attack-official-says/ar-BBEJuq2?li=BBmkt5R&ocid=spartanntp
This is the largest and most pathetic excuse the right has for letting the NRA purchase up our government to run it how they see fit.Quote: MaxPen...
The NRA has BOUGHT AND PAID for legislation that makes it so the CDC can't even STUDY guns and their effects in America. Hmmm, sound like oppression of information and enslavement of our country by a private organization not elected by its citizens???
I'm not the biggest Obama fan, just jesus LISTEN TO THIS:
The NRA has made this 1000% true... Bring up ANY kind of gun legislation and all the sudden it's "OMG THEY WANNA TAKE 'ER GUNS!!!!"
I think you've hit that nail on the head. Job frustrations, social interaction problems. They've had a series of bosses and a series of social rejections and they really can't think of a way to assemble all their enemies in one place but that doesn't make too much difference to them since they don't hate just those bosses or just those women they tried to date, they hate the whole world. They reach a point where alcohol won't do it and drugs won't do it but blasting away at unarmed, unsuspecting people will indeed satisfy them, even if it means going out in a blaze of "glory".Quote: beachbumbabsI would say that's accurate, but I would add a lot of very frustrated men who don't function well in the modern job or social market, acting out of despair and anger, wanting to make their mark in the world.
Mental Health? Once they closed those large institutions at put the burden on the local community there has been no mental health. Wales has pretty much remained the same as far as its economy and population goes, but all those new psychoactive meds just turn people in zombies. At least at the large asylums in Wales, people used to actually get helped. The Big Pharma types enjoy great sales however even if those endless supplies of pills don't actually help patients.
Quote: RomesThis is the largest and most pathetic excuse the right has for letting the NRA purchase up our government to run it how they see fit.
The NRA has BOUGHT AND PAID for legislation that makes it so the CDC can't even STUDY guns and their effects in America. Hmmm, sound like oppression of information and enslavement of our country by a private organization not elected by its citizens???
Thanks, Romes, for this opportunity.
The NRA, of which I am not a member, have never been a member, and will likely never be a member, is by far the biggest producer of learning material, teaching efforts, and training regimens when it comes to firearms. You'd be hard pressed to find a joint to learn proper gun handling, use, and maintenance that doesn't have NRA endorsement, involvement, or some sort of connection. Whether gunner or anti, we all want safe handlers, yes? The NRA is beyond measure the most involved in doing just that.
Did you know it is a crime if a person is legally restricted from owning a gun - a) is found possessing a gun, b) lives in a dwelling where guns are present, c) attempts to purchase a gun? It sort of seems we should have some sort of system whereby we can check these things, yes? Some sort of "background check", maybe? Perhaps a National Instant Criminal background check System (NICS) to vet folks before handing over a weapon? That's a big area of contention for anti's, is it not?
The NRA is often seen as fighting this and other anti efforts. The NRA is often seen as pushing guns into as many hands as possible and damn the consequences. The NRA is often seen as The Problem, yes? Someone get me my chalk...
When you go to the gun store, the shop keep will engage you in conversation. Among niceties, small talk, and sharing of passion, a moment will be devoted to inquire as to whether you as the customer have a legal right to possess a firearm. If you answer "no", the conversation ends, "good day" is bid, and all is well. But let's say you forgot. Let's say you are a crim without a legal right to possess, and you state "yes". At that moment, you have committed the federal crime of withholding information. But when are you stopped?
23(ish) states conduct NICS on the spot. The rest send the work off to the FBI, but it's all the same work, same process. If you're in one of the 23, the shopkeep goes away, does some stuff, and comes back annoyed. You get booted out. If it's one of the buck passing states, you'll get a few days reprieve until the FBI comes back with GTFO. And you still get booted out. But here's the thing... a crime has already been committed. Now what?
Well, gather 'round. I'll tell you what.
In a recent year that I can't recall (201X), those 23(ish) states stopped 80,000+ people who attempted to illegally obtain a firearm. The FBI stopped an additional 70,000+. 150,000+ criminals prevented from obtaining a firearm. 150,000 criminals committing a federal offense, nabbed by the NICS, nabbed by your precious background checks. This forum is the brightest, most intelligent one I know of. Anyone care to guess, out of a huge wad of 150,000 crimes, crimes of a serious, on the forefront nature, how many were charged?
44.
That's not convictions. That's not me forgetting zeroes. Out of 150,000+ criminal attempts to obtain a firearm, only 44 were even charged.
They were not "not charged" because of the NRA. Not because of the GOP, not because the NRA possess the ghost of Johnny Cochran and busted em all loose, not because Face goes apes#$% on the internet. They were not charged because our employees failed at their job. Because the guys you cheer for and say "Yay! We passed it" only passed it, with no effort whatsoever to actually, you know, do it.
There's a problem here, sure. Just not sure the NRA is the windmill you're looking for.
PS - The CDC business? The NRA is welcome to go f#$% itself on that one. Firmly in your camp on that number.
Quote: FaceThanks, Romes, for this opportunity.
The NRA, of which I am not a member, have never been a member, and will likely never be a member, is by far the biggest producer of learning material, teaching efforts, and training regimens when it comes to firearms. You'd be hard pressed to find a joint to learn proper gun handling, use, and maintenance that doesn't have NRA endorsement, involvement, or some sort of connection. Whether gunner or anti, we all want safe handlers, yes? The NRA is beyond measure the most involved in doing just that.
<snip>
They were not "not charged" because of the NRA. Not because of the GOP, not because the NRA possess the ghost of Johnny Cochran and busted em all loose, not because Face goes apes#$% on the internet. They were not charged because our employees failed at their job. Because the guys you cheer for and say "Yay! We passed it" only passed it, with no effort whatsoever to actually, you know, do it.
There's a problem here, sure. Just not sure the NRA is the windmill you're looking for.
PS - The CDC business? The NRA is welcome to go f#$% itself on that one. Firmly in your camp on that number.
The first paragraph above, I think, is absolutely correct. Unlike you, I was a member of the NRA for about a decade. We took their gun safety course in junior high gym class. And I grew up in a family of hunters. It was a worthwhile effort.
HOWEVER, and it's a big one, the NRA transitioned in the 1990's from a gun safety and responsible gun advocate for its MEMBERS to a lobbying organization for gun MANUFACTURERS. And the focus of its efforts changed accordingly. Even GHWB tore up his membership in disgust with their shift in purpose.
Gun owners support universal background checks, closing the gun show/private sale loopholes, no fly no gun list, and a couple other sensible measures by 70% or more. (General public support is in the 90's; I'm talking about OWNERS)
NRA? No, no, no, and hell no. They take their membership money and Manu sponsorships and pay for legislative blocks that will allow the most sales, whether for unlimited ammo or for types of guns and accessories that really don't need to be out there. Much of the less reasonable legislation introduced is in reaction to the spiraling hysteria created with a near complete lawless and gutted gun society. All of it gets in the way of something workable.
They also lie and misrepresent a lot of other people's positions on guns to their members, which generally results in increased sales through panic and defiance. Which, of course, is the point of spooling people up. Disgusting.
So, yes, the NRA is smack dab in the middle of the problem, as I see it, anyway.
Quote: darkozAnd yet ther is a major problem with suggestions that guns need to be MORE accesible so good guys can shoot the bad guys
What is that problem?
Well lets take the vegas shooting first. Lets say gun advocates argue there needs to be law abiding citizens carrying to stop a possible gunman. The Gunman himself was one of those law abiding citizens until the moment he began his rampage
So next week when the mandalay bay sees a customer checking in with an assault rifle and the guest says he is just carrying it so he can stop other possible shooters...
Well..how is that going to handled
Some repubs hav claimed now parishioners should carry guns. The shooter was a parishioner of that church. Would have been even easier for him to get the guns in if that was the case. How are churchs and casinos or anyine going to determine just who are the shooters and who the protectors
The Lord said nothing about not bringing weapons into a church for defensive purposes and I can see elder and deacon meetings all over the United States where security is discussed at churches. Most churches actually do have people one security and are responsible to see that safety is upheld, run the elevators, and lock up the church when everyone's out. I would not be surprised if the larger ones don't consider packing, provided the appropriate police checks and training is provided.
I'm surprised that in Texas more people were not "strapped". That neighbor's daughter is the real hero in all of this. She went and woke up the rifle-guy who twice wounded the shooter. Then the passerby came on the scene and they gave chase. None of that would have happened if the young girl had not acted so sensibly.
Good driving, cell phones, radios, a good dispatcher, good cell tower coverage ... it all helped but none of it would have happened without that pre-teenage girl having taken immediate action. So while there may have been many heroes that day, the most critical one was that young girl.