HeySlick's Anti-Muslim Derail

Quote: HeySlick

Come on man - stop being such a stick in the mud. I suppose now your going to change Kitty Wells stage name so my question above doesn't have any humor to it. Mrs Kitty Twitty is funny

I'm not trying to be a kill joy, just stating the correct information. Merry Christmas.

Quote: Dodsferd

I'm not trying to be a kill joy, just stating the correct information. Merry Christmas.

OK -- I've never been a fan of those particular Movies --- in 1968 before I got levied to Vietnam, many of my fellow soldiers would spend a lot of their free time watching Star Trek - not me. I was usually playing pool or just kicking back on the bunk - thanks for setting me straight on those star wars characters.


edit/add

I'm done for now - off to my sisters house for a family Christmas dinner. Feliz Navidad

Quote: MathExtremist

But I don't put much stock in criticism of another man's faith coming from someone who's broken an oath under his own, especially after holding up his military service as an example of his credibility. Implying that the President is unqualified to hold office merely because he's accused to be Muslim is ridiculous;

Fair enough.

I realize I may be stumbling into Quibble Land, but I don't read the Army oath as requiring agreement with the Constitution, just protection and defense of it.

HeySlick served, and deserves respect for that. It just struck me there were other, perhaps better, ways to assail his views than questioning a vet's allegiance to the Constitution.

Quote: Calder

Fair enough.

I realize I may be stumbling into Quibble Land, but I don't read the Army oath as requiring agreement with the Constitution, just protection and defense of it.

HeySlick served, and deserves respect for that. It just struck me there were other, perhaps better, ways to assail his views than questioning a vet's allegiance to the Constitution.

Thank you

Quote: MathExtremist

I'm not suggesting that anything is wrong with disagreeing with the Constitution per se. After all, the Constitution was amended to outlaw alcohol before saner heads prevailed, so it's clearly not an infallible document.

But I don't put much stock in criticism of another man's faith coming from someone who's broken an oath under his own, especially after holding up his military service as an example of his credibility. Implying that the President is unqualified to hold office merely because he's accused to be Muslim is ridiculous; literally, worthy of ridicule. There is no evidence or history to support the idea that managing the affairs of this country has anything to do with one's belief in a particular version of the Abrahamic deity, or even zero to N non-Abrahamic deities.

The Oath of Enlistment (for enlisted):

"I, _____, do solemnly swear (or affirm) that I will support and defend the Constitution of the United States against all enemies, foreign and domestic; that I will bear true faith and allegiance to the same; and that I will obey the orders of the President of the United States and the orders of the officers appointed over me, according to regulations and the Uniform Code of Military Justice. So help me God."

What part of the oath says that one cannot have an opinion about someone's qualifications for office? It is a breach of the oath to disobey lawful orders...

I am not agreeing with his position; I just see it has not being a violation of any oath he has taken...

Quote: RonC

What part of the oath says that one cannot have an opinion about someone's qualifications for office?

Well, he specifically asked what was he fighting for. Not just stated his opinion.

There was no religious test when he fought. There isn't one now.

So, his question is answered. He fought for the right for even a secret Muslim to be President whether he likes it or not.

Quote: RonC

The Oath of Enlistment (for enlisted):

"I, _____, do solemnly swear (or affirm) that I will support and defend the Constitution of the United States

He made allegations that the President was Muslim, and setting aside the veracity of that allegation, it was a clear implication that there's something wrong with being Muslim -- either generally, or specifically with respect to being President. That's simply counter to what the Constitution affords. Article VI prohibits a faith-based test for holding public office, and Amendment I prohibits any law or government policy favoring one religion over another (or over non-religion).

More generally, the United States was founded in part on the premise of religious freedom and tolerance and to avoid the religious wars that had so plagued the European continent in the prior centuries. George Washington, in his 1790 letter to the Jewish congregation in Newport, Rhode Island, wrote:

Quote:

It is now no more that toleration is spoken of as if it were the indulgence of one class of people that another enjoyed the exercise of their inherent natural rights, for, happily, the Government of the United States, which gives to bigotry no sanction, to persecution no assistance, requires only that they who live under its protection should demean themselves as good citizens in giving it on all occasions their effectual support.

May the children of the stock of Abraham who dwell in this land continue to merit and enjoy the good will of the other inhabitants—while every one shall sit in safety under his own vine and fig tree and there shall be none to make him afraid.

That is what American service members are fighting for: an America that is "an Asylum to the persecuted and oppressed of every Nation and Religion" (James Madison, June 20, 1785. http://press-pubs.uchicago.edu/founders/documents/amendI_religions43.html)

Quote: MathExtremist

He made allegations that the President was Muslim, and setting aside the veracity of that allegation, it was a clear implication that there's something wrong with being Muslim -- either generally, or specifically with respect to being President. That's simply counter to what the Constitution affords. Article VI prohibits a faith-based test for holding public office, and Amendment I prohibits any law or government policy favoring one religion over another (or over non-religion).

More generally, the United States was founded in part on the premise of religious freedom and tolerance and to avoid the religious wars that had so plagued the European continent in the prior centuries. George Washington, in his 1790 letter to the Jewish congregation in Newport, Rhode Island, wrote:

Quote:

It is now no more that toleration is spoken of as if it were the indulgence of one class of people that another enjoyed the exercise of their inherent natural rights, for, happily, the Government of the United States, which gives to bigotry no sanction, to persecution no assistance, requires only that they who live under its protection should demean themselves as good citizens in giving it on all occasions their effectual support.

May the children of the stock of Abraham who dwell in this land continue to merit and enjoy the good will of the other inhabitants—while every one shall sit in safety under his own vine and fig tree and there shall be none to make him afraid.

That is what American service members are fighting for: an America that is "an Asylum to the persecuted and oppressed of every Nation and Religion" (James Madison, June 20, 1785. http://press-pubs.uchicago.edu/founders/documents/amendI_religions43.html)

Are you actually claiming me and my fellow soldiers back in 1966 took an oath to all of your bolded type above? Seriously, you've got to be out of your mind or, maybe you think you can retroactively apply that to me - WTF? that was over 46 years ago, I did what I was told to do and, was discharged honorably. edit/add BTW President Obama was 5 years old when I joined the Army -- kind of funny and ironic at same time i.e.,
wasn't he and his mother living in Indonesia with her new husband and young Obama/Barry Soetoro Muslim step father?

In 1965, Dunham married Lolo Soetoro, a University of Hawaii student from Indonesia. A year later, the family moved to Jakarta, Indonesia, where Obama's half-sister, Maya Soetoro Ng, was born in 1970. Several incidents in Indonesia left Dunham afraid for her son's safety and education so, at the age of 10, Obama was sent back to Hawaii to live with his maternal grandparents. His mother and half-sister later joined them.

Quote: HeySlick

Are you actually claiming me and my fellow soldiers back in 1966 took an oath to all of your bolded type above? Seriously, you've got to be out of your mind or, maybe you think you can retroactively apply that to me - WTF? that was over 46 years ago, I did what I was told to do and, was discharged honorably. edit/add BTW President Obama was 6 years old when I joined the Army -- kind of funny and ironic at same time i.e.,
wasn't he and his mother living in Indonesia with her husband and young Obama/Barry Muslim step father?

Retroactively? The words of George Washington and James Madison were written hundreds of years ago. They predate you and every single one of your relatives in this country. You may not like it, but the country you were fighting for in the 1960s was founded so your ancestors could come here from Europe (probably) and practice their faiths free from religious persecution and bigotry.

Religious bigotry is anti-American.

Quote: MathExtremist

Retroactively? The words of George Washington and James Madison were written hundreds of years ago. They predate you and every single one of your relatives in this country. You may not like it, but the country you were fighting for in the 1960s was founded so your ancestors could come here from Europe (probably) and practice their faiths free from religious persecution and bigotry.

Religious bigotry is anti-American.

How many different tangents are you going to rant on and on about?

Quote: HeySlick

How many different tangents are you going to rant on and on about?

Says the guy who starts by complaining that the President is a secret Muslim, then shifts to a screed on how the country used to be great but now we have a Black President and we might even have a female or homosexual one next. Your bucket-o-bigotry has many different ingredients.

Fortunately, none of them are what this country actually stands for.

Quote: MathExtremist

Says the guy who starts by complaining that the President is a secret Muslim, then shifts to a screed on how the country used to be great but now we have a Black President and we might even have a female or homosexual one next. Your bucket-o-bigotry has many different ingredients.

Fortunately, none of them are what this country actually stands for.

You sure got that insinuation swagger down to an art - I hear old Charlie Manson is a great artist as well. That parallel artistry talent you and Charlie share may have different venues - But, they definitely have the oddity factor in common.