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Ibeatyouraces
Ibeatyouraces
Joined: Jan 12, 2010
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September 10th, 2015 at 10:39:32 AM permalink
Quote: kewlj

Gays are real? You must not have ever frequented the gay bars and clubs. I can assure you must are quite "phoney". Lol.


Haha quite funny.
DUHHIIIIIIIII HEARD THAT!
kewlj
kewlj
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September 10th, 2015 at 10:44:40 AM permalink
It is stunning to me that at least some republicans are still trying to fight the gay marriage fight. Not only has the fight been lost, but it is just a bad fight at this point in time and has been for a while.

The numbers clearly show this is a real bad losing battle. A majority of people, still fairly close, but a majority, support gay marriage. That doesn't mean they all are in love with the idea, but they understand the constitution (which is the law of this land, not the bible) mandates it. The really stunning numbers are in that the younger generation, including younger republicans, support gay marriage by close to 3-1 margins. That means every single day as older voters who oppose gay marriage die off and are replaced by younger voters the margin grows more and more. It' a done deal and a losing political issue for republicans. repubs have some issues that can be winning issues for them, why on earth would they allow a small majority to push them into a really bad fight that they cannot win.

The smart operatives in the repub party who are focused on winning a general election where actually glad to have this issue resolved and taken off the table, or so they thought. It is stunning that some hillbilly renegade clerk, is placing this devastating issue for the republicans back on the table front and center and it's likely to continue next week as this woman has no intent of following the judges orders. She is there to make a scene and name for herself now.

Judge Bunning is not the bad guy here. He is personally not a supporter of gay marriage. He had and will have again, no choice in the matter. He can not allow a person to thumb at the law, him and his authority.
petroglyph
petroglyph
Joined: Jan 3, 2013
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September 10th, 2015 at 10:53:53 AM permalink
Quote: kewlj

Gays are real? You must not have ever frequented the gay bars and clubs. I can assure you must are quite "phoney". Lol.

So you are saying they are about like straits then?
AZDuffman
AZDuffman 
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September 10th, 2015 at 11:01:42 AM permalink
Quote: kewlj

It is stunning to me that at least some republicans are still trying to fight the gay marriage fight. Not only has the fight been lost, but it is just a bad fight at this point in time and has been for a while.



You are aware that the woman at the center of all of this is a Democrat, right?
All animals are equal, but some are more equal than others
SteveButte
SteveButte
Joined: Aug 11, 2015
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September 10th, 2015 at 11:20:11 AM permalink
Quote: AZDuffman

So, I'll bite, then how do you get them to work? No carrot and no stick?



Good questions. I think it's a false assumption that the incentive to work has to come in the form of monetary/material reward or fear of going hungry. This assumes that people are intrinsically lazy. I think that this assumption is perpetuated by our current society because we are immersed in a system where this is the only way to survive, so it's hard for us to imagine a society where the only reward or incentive to labor is seeing the fruit of that labor realized by improving conditions for friends, families, neighbors, society as a whole. But I believe this to be a more powerful "stick and carrot" than a mere wad of cash. There's a good book by Anarchist and anthropologist David Graeber that explains ancient monetary/debt systems and social relations called "Debt: The First 5000 Years" that's worth checking out.

In present conditions, the person to job ratio isn't 1:1 (and never will be as Capitalists require surplus labor), so even if all the unemployed wanted to work (which a majority do), there simply aren't enough positions available. I think calling the poor/unemployed lazy (not implying that you did) is a convenient cop out to rationalize away a major societal problem and pit the lower classes against each other rather than coming to grips with how to fix it.

Quote: AZDuffman

What is the "wrong thing?" Capitalism has lifted billions of people from poverty and improved their lives to levels unimaginable even 300 years ago.



Yeah that was vague on my part. Obviously morality is open to debate and I'm probably not going to win you over, but I'll try.

The 'Capitalism has lifted billions from poverty' line is false and imposes a Western moral system on those in other parts of the world who don't or didn't subscribe to that system. It has improved conditions for some but at the cost of worsening conditions for the great majority. Billions still live in poverty. The US/NATO has backed countless genocidal dictatorships for the purposes of keeping entire regions of the world unstable to install puppets who are willing to play ball with our corporate interests. It happens over and over again and it's happening right now. There's a good read about this called "Killing Hope" by William Blum that documents CIA interventions post WW II. Peasant farmers in China may not have been living great lives by our standards, but they still had a level autonomy that is non existent in the Nike shoe-gluing factory working 16 hour days under hazardous conditions. So in some sense you're right. I don't think 300 years ago anyone could have imagined this to be their great-great-great-great-great-great-great grandson's future.

Capitalist production has been great at producing lots of material needs and wants of society and innovating new technology, for sure. I don't think any Marxist would argue otherwise. But most of the fancy new toys are reserved for the ruling class and imperial societies while leaving the rest of the world out. There also comes a point when it actually prevents innovation. You need look no further than the oil industry buying up patents for electric cars 40 years ago to squash their development because oil is too profitable of a commodity to stop pumping out of the ground. This happens when Capitalism enters a monopoly phase which crushes free competition. There are many, many more examples of this.

Anyway, that's just a short list. I could babble on forever. Also someone said I was complaining. I don't think I'm complaining, I'm just explaining my world view because I like debating. This is a complaint: WAAAAAAAAAAA Capitalism is bad!!!!!!!!! WAAAAAAAAAA listen to me!!!!!!!!! WAAAAAAAAAA!!!!!!!! Happy?
kewlj
kewlj
Joined: Apr 17, 2012
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September 10th, 2015 at 11:31:00 AM permalink
Quote: AZDuffman

You are aware that the woman at the center of all of this is a Democrat, right?



Yes, I am. But it is the republicans embracing her, particularly the religious right wing fringe presidential candidates that are doing the damage for republicans.

The fact that this person is a democrat is irrelevant. The issue really is something that BBBabs has been talking of, separation of church and state. The republicans, or at least the religious wing of the party seem to want combine church and state, when separation of church and state is the single principal this country was founded on.
terapined
terapined
Joined: Dec 1, 2012
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September 10th, 2015 at 11:49:50 AM permalink
Quote: AZDuffman

You are aware that the woman at the center of all of this is a Democrat, right?



Oh absolutely.
Its so so rich, Republican Presidential candidates get behind a Democrat that hates gays.

Does not matter if you are a Christian Dem or Christian Repub.
If you let a religious make believe fantasy prevent you from doing your job, get a new job.
Trump is crystal clear on this. Kim Davis needs to get a new job due to her Christian fantasy make believe beliefs.
Go Trump :-)
"Everybody's bragging and drinking that wine, I can tell the Queen of Diamonds by the way she shines, Come to Daddy on an inside straight, I got no chance of losing this time" -Grateful Dead- "Loser"
AZDuffman
AZDuffman 
Joined: Nov 2, 2009
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September 10th, 2015 at 11:51:37 AM permalink
Quote: SteveButte

Good questions. I think it's a false assumption that the incentive to work has to come in the form of monetary/material reward or fear of going hungry. This assumes that people are intrinsically lazy.



Actually, people are intrinsically lazy. Adam Smith bring this up in "The Wealth of Nations" where people will invent things to make work easier. Think about it, are not many if not most great inventions to save labor? Have you ever "invented" something around the house or shop to make life easier on yourself by reducing work?


Quote:

In present conditions, the person to job ratio isn't 1:1 (and never will be as Capitalists require surplus labor), so even if all the unemployed wanted to work (which a majority do), there simply aren't enough positions available. I think calling the poor/unemployed lazy (not implying that you did) is a convenient cop out to rationalize away a major societal problem and pit the lower classes against each other rather than coming to grips with how to fix it.



It will never be 1:1 but that is a good thing. Imagine if we did not have enough labor to fill demand. Basic required goods would be in shortage. The economy would soon break down.


Quote:

It has improved conditions for some but at the cost of worsening conditions for the great majority. Billions still live in poverty.

Peasant farmers in China may not have been living great lives by our standards, but they still had a level autonomy that is non existent in the Nike shoe-gluing factory working 16 hour days under hazardous conditions.



On whole is has improved and by a great deal. 50 years ago, both Koreas lived fairy equal lives. Look at today. Yes, the peasant farmer has some advantages vs. factory work. Yet tens of millions of them leave the countryside to line up to make Nike shoes. In the USA there is a small, niche movement to small-scale "urban" farming, but this is only possible because of the fantastic wealth all around that lets this niche farmer sell high-priced "local" or specialty goods. In a poor system nobody can pay extra for say free-range duck eggs.

Quote:

You need look no further than the oil industry buying up patents for electric cars 40 years ago to squash their development because oil is too profitable of a commodity to stop pumping out of the ground. This happens when Capitalism enters a monopoly phase which crushes free competition. There are many, many more examples of this.



I don't buy that the oil companies did this, seems more urban legend. Like them squashing the 100 mpg carburetor. For a better example, see the Uber thread at DT.


Quote:

Anyway, that's just a short list. I could babble on forever. Also someone said I was complaining. I don't think I'm complaining, I'm just explaining my world view because I like debating.



I don't see you complaining. And we need a new issue to debate as there are too many folks here who want to keep discussing gay marriage over, over, and over. Breath of fresh air.
All animals are equal, but some are more equal than others
Face
Administrator
Face
Joined: Dec 27, 2010
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September 10th, 2015 at 11:58:15 AM permalink
Quote: kewlj

It is stunning to me that at least some republicans are still trying to fight the gay marriage fight. Not only has the fight been lost, but it is just a bad fight at this point in time and has been for a while.



Gay marriage was settled for some 13 billion years. Why did you keep fighting? If it had not gone your way, would you have ceased being gay?

Don't get me wrong, I agree with you. I wish everyone would just shut up about it. But crying works. I expect those against it to keep on crying forever.

My ammosexuality has been settled ever since 1791, but people still try to take it away from me. And hell, even though I'm "winning", I still cry for more. I expect to continue to cry until I can tote a 30mm around town without getting hassled, and can legally mount some LAU-61's to my boat. I assume the gays and the anti-gays will cry for about as long.
The opinions of this moderator are for entertainment purposes only.
kewlj
kewlj
Joined: Apr 17, 2012
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September 10th, 2015 at 12:01:33 PM permalink
Quote: terapined


Trump is crystal clear on this. Kim Davis needs to get a new job due to her Christian fantasy make believe beliefs.
Go Trump :-)



Trump is right on many issues. :)

YOU, though, are only pulling for Trump because you think he 'dooms' the republican party, to the benefit of your democratic party.

I, on the other hand find myself agreeing more and more with some Trumps positions/ideas. And THIS concerns me a bit. LOL.

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