Do you consider this "Excessive Absenteeism"?
My boss(s) get very angry at me because I use a sick day once a month (I would assume they allotted 12 because 12 months).
What makes them angrier is that I the sick time on monday or friday (usually) because, the way I look at it, I push through the week if I'm sick, so I can rest up a solid 3 days before coming back...
Now, I work 252 days per year (everyday except Goverment Holidays; I work for the state)
What say you? Excessive Absenteeism...or just using my allotted time?
A LOT of people I work with have HUGE amounts of sick time on the books...basically, they're losing it...because once they leave this company, they don't cash out the sick time, it just get absorbed back into the company...
ie: My boss...she has been here 9 years and CURRENTLY has 72 sick days on the books...so basically she didn't take ONE SICK DAY in SIX YEARS
I never viewed sick time as "something to be taken or lost" if I were not sick. I viewed it as something that is there IF needed for sickness.
This is how it works:
Vacation time = time off for yourself, regardless of health.
Sick time = time off only IF you are sick, and NOT if you're well.
I've worked many months in a row straight if I were not sick, BECAUSE I was not sick. Each year we got six sick days, and one year I called in sick once. Did I "lose" five days off? No - because I wasn't sick. I never viewed it as extra free time off or "free time lost," if I'm well enough to work. Some places require doctor's notes, and I agree with that. It doesn't matter if other people used more time off, or if they abuse the system. It matters what I do.
Quote: PaigowdanIt matters what I do.
CORRECT!
My former employer changed their policy to recategorize sick time and vaction time together as 'Paid Time Off'. This was to be used for any employee requested time off (did not include jury duty, military service, or bereavement). I felt this was a much better system as it eliminated the need to state why one was requesting time off and didn't put the employer in the uncomfortable (and time consuming) position of questioning the reason for the time away from work.
Vacation days are budgeted with the assumption that everyone takes vacation, AND that can be easily calculated. It is accrued as an expense, as a matter of fact, and vacation untaken remains as a accrued liability on the books until taken.
Sick days are also budgeted but there is no accrual going on as the sick "expense" is taken as it occurs. Most companies will budget their sick time according to actual sick time taken. This is usually around 2-3% of budget (5-7 sick days per year per employee, depending on the industry).
While you are allowed x number of sick days, generally the employer expects that they are only to be taken if you are sick, not as a free "mental health" day that you take every month.
As for me who rarely gets sick, I take a "mental health" day every quarter, and it is truly a mental health day, spent at home, relaxing. I usually take it mid-week as well and tailor it to the activities going on at work, so that if the week is scheduled to be light, I can get away with taking off a day and it being non-billable with negligible impact to the client.
You are abusing the sick day policy. The 12 days is there as a courtesy in case something major happens. If everyone took the 12 days, they wouldn't give everyone 12 days anymore. Also, 12 days is way above market average. And especially using it on a monday/friday, just is pretty much rubbing it in their face that you are not sick. If I was HR in this case, I would require that you bring a doctor's note every time you are sick.
Basically what you should do is use the sick days when you're not feeling 100%, and use them mid-week sometimes. I have a cold right now, and if I had 12 sick days, I'd probably have used it today. But since I have PTO (and a decent amount of work to do), I'm sticking it out.
Now, in my consulting practice, I tell businesses that they should adopt one of two policies. The first, which is better for those companies who are too established and too afraid of trying something new, is to pay people for their unused sick days. This could be on a yearly basis, on a milestone basis (every 5 years), or even at retirement/termination. This provides incentive for people to not use their sick days 'willy nilly'.
The second option is to eliminate the concept of sick days and vacation days, and convert everything to 'leave time'. This can still add up to the combination of sick and vacation time from prior to the conversion. So, an employee might be given 20 days of 'leave time' per year. Whether this time is used for vacation or sick leave is irrelevant and completely up to the employee. Vacation time still must be arranged in advance, per company policy, and in addition it may be determined that a person cannot utilize all of their days in one long time off, depending on their position and job responsibilities. Sick days can be taken 'on the fly', but anything resembling a pattern will require a doctor's note.
Of course, all of this is assuming that the vacation, sick, and leave time are all paid days off. Unpaid days off are always an option for employees, however, I advise companies to write into their policy manual that an employee taking unpaid days off becomes eligible for termination.
Quote: TIMSPEEDSo in my staying under my allotted PTO (as someone put it), I'm abusing it, correct?
But you didn't state it as PTO, you stated it as two different buckets, sick and vacation. One should make sure they use all the vacation time they can't carry forward. One should use sick time only for those days your employers defines as sick time. I imagine the definition is contained in an employee handbook or something like that.
Quote: 1arrowheaddrThe problem with getting rid of sick days and going to PTO only is that it encourages people to come in to work when they actually are sick. Since the PTO could be used for vacation why waste a day of it when you are at home sick.
If you basically haven't used a sick day in six years...then you can't tell me you aren't coming in to work sick...unless of course you're a superhuman...or a worker-bee.
Quote: boymimboOn the books, while an employee is allowed x number of sick days a year, it is not budgeted that way.
Vacation days are budgeted with the assumption that everyone takes vacation, AND that can be easily calculated. It is accrued as an expense, as a matter of fact, and vacation untaken remains as a accrued liability on the books until taken.
Sick days are also budgeted but there is no accrual going on as the sick "expense" is taken as it occurs. Most companies will budget their sick time according to actual sick time taken. This is usually around 2-3% of budget (5-7 sick days per year per employee, depending on the industry).
While you are allowed x number of sick days, generally the employer expects that they are only to be taken if you are sick, not as a free "mental health" day that you take every month.
As for me who rarely gets sick, I take a "mental health" day every quarter, and it is truly a mental health day, spent at home, relaxing. I usually take it mid-week as well and tailor it to the activities going on at work, so that if the week is scheduled to be light, I can get away with taking off a day and it being non-billable with negligible impact to the client.
This is exactly what I wanted to hear! I really thought it DID have something to do with the way the company budgets...even though it seemed not, but it DOES!
So, they're pushing of people to NOT use their sick days, is actually saving the company money...
I guess I'm just abusing the policy...I guess it's time to go be a teacher..so I can have spring/winter/summer breaks off...
Being self employed, I make money when I work. If I am sick and miss considerable time, like 3 months last year, I don't make money. If I choose to go lounge around the pool or beach for a few days, I don't make money. I am not dependent on someone to pay me for not working. Doesn't this sound more like the way it should be?? :)
Quote: TIMSPEEDIf you basically haven't used a sick day in six years...then you can't tell me you aren't coming in to work sick...unless of course you're a superhuman...or a worker-bee.
In other countries, people have different values. Mainly, if you don't work, you don't eat. Here in USA, we are brain washed with words like "entitlement" like handouts is deserved.
What made America great are first generation Americans who workded harder than their children. Look around and see what first generatios have done. Food stamp is a stop gap measure to be used in an emergency till you get back on your feet, not a way of life.
People who run their own business do not have the luxury of taking days off if they are little under the weather or if they do not feel like working. Working for the government allows you to do things that will not fly in private business. Anyone who took a sick day off per month in my company will be fired. Sick days are for the sick, not, I am sick of work so I do not want to come in bs.
Quote: konceptumSick days can be taken 'on the fly', but anything resembling a pattern will require a doctor's note..
Which they have mandated for ME and ONLY me.
Quote: AceCrAAckersIn other countries, people have different values. Mainly, if you don't work, you don't eat. Here in USA, we are brain washed with words like "entitlement" like handouts is deserved.
What made America great are first generation Americans who workded harder than their children. Look around and see what first generatios have done. Food stamp is a stop gap measure to be used in an emergency till you get back on your feet, not a way of life.
People who run their own business do not have the luxury of taking days off if they are little under the weather or if they do not feel like working. Working for the government allows you to do things that will not fly in private business. Anyone who took a sick day off per month in my company will be fired. Sick days are for the sick, not, I am sick of work so I do not want to come in bs.
All this is fine and dandy...simply say "There are no sick days, if you do not come in you do not get paid." I am fine with that practice....but if you say I am entitled to something, then say something else..well that is another story...
and FWIW, if I used a sick day on a tue-wed-thur they'd be fine and dandy with it and smiling all the way...
Quote: TIMSPEEDAll this is fine and dandy...simply say "There are no sick days, if you do not come in you do not get paid." I am fine with that practice....but if you say I am entitled to something, then say something else..well that is another story...
Sick days are for days when you are sick. You are not entitled to sick days because you are sick of working!
Quote: TIMSPEEDand FWIW, if I used a sick day on a tue-wed-thur they'd be fine and dandy with it and smiling all the way...
How convienient that you are only sick on Mon or Fri. Thats what makes your story about being sick so much crap.
Quote: AceCrAAckersHow convienient that you are only sick on Mon or Fri. Thats what makes your story about being sick so much crap.
Convienient indeed...perhaps I should plan for illness better...
At my first job which I held for about 4 years, they had 2 buckets: vacation and personal time. Personal time used to be called "sick days" but they renamed it and dropped any pretense of sickness required - it was allowed and encouraged to use personal time to buffer your vacation if you wanted. The rollover and accrual policies were different, but that was the only difference.
Currently I'm a contractor, so I'm paid when I work - pretty simple. My hourly rate, extrapolated over a full year of working every day, is actually pretty high for my job and experience level, but of course I don't get paid for holidays, vacation, sick time, etc. So it evens out. I almost like this better, as I'm not constantly playing the vacation time battle. I request time off ahead of time, it's almost always approved, and I just don't get paid - so I can take off whatever I can afford, within reason. But I'm blessed to be in a very employee-friendly job field.
At my in-between job, they had a decent vacation policy, but also had the ability to pad your paid vacation with official unpaid days off, up to a maximum of 2 weeks/year. That was nice, especially when you first start and don't have any vacation days accrued.
Quote: AceCrAAckersAnyone who took a sick day off per month in my company will be fired.
Stars that burn twice as hot, burn twice as fast...
The reason why companies and small businesses employ people is to build a brand and a company based on the people who show up, day after day. it's about loyalty. For that loyalty, the employer gives the employee benefits in the hope that the employee stays working for the company.
I consult and have been consulting now for the past 10 years, but I am an employee of a large IT company. For that, I get paid less. But the company finds the clients for me through their sales force (which I am not good at). The company gives me my vacation benefits, sick days, matching pension, jury leave, bonuses, LOA benefits, life insurance, training, and so on and so forth. This keeps me loyal to the company. I know that I could go out on my own and make double the hourly rate that I am making now, but I would miss out on all of the other perks (read security) that the company offers. The two keys for me is the employee training (I work with software, and the software changes), and the ability for them to find clients for me.
One very large portion of self-employment is the ability to market yourself. That is a skill that not many people actually have. It's tough enough for people to go through the interview process and to develop that very limited skillset, or even to create a decent resume. If you don't have that marketing skill, you're doomed to be underemployed. The other major thing that you have to understand with self-employment is your worth and your rate. If you undervalue yourself, you will have lots of work but will not be making much money. If you overvalue yourself, you will price yourself out of work. And the market changes.
Quote: TIMSPEEDConvienient indeed...perhaps I should plan for illness better...
You are sounding awfully whiney Tim.
If you are sick....really sick, you should be grateful for this benefit. But you better really be sick. Sick in bed or laid up. Having a cold but taking the day off to relax and then stopping buy the mall for lunch doesn't qualify.
If you are fortunate enough to not be sick, you should not feel like you were 'cheated' out of those days. You should be grateful for your health and that you didn't need them.
Stop this entitlement crap.
Quote: TIMSPEEDConvienient indeed...perhaps I should plan for illness better...
If it's really illness, you can't.
Quote: AcesAndEightsTim, you haven't explicitly said whether or not you are actually "sick" (or something approaching sick) on these days. I ask because some people are legitimately more sickly than others, and with a weak immune system could legitimately take a day per month off for ill health. I would say that's not the norm, but I know people like that. I'm not asking you if you are "abusing the system" because that's a judgement call.
At my first job which I held for about 4 years, they had 2 buckets: vacation and personal time. Personal time used to be called "sick days" but they renamed it and dropped any pretense of sickness required - it was allowed and encouraged to use personal time to buffer your vacation if you wanted. The rollover and accrual policies were different, but that was the only difference.
That sounds quite like our setup...
Vacation does DOESN'T roll-over (ie: at Jan 1 each year, whatever you have left, you lose and you start over with a new allottment; while "sick" days just keep on accrueing.)
And I agree, being sick on monday and fridays is out of the norm (my company actually paid a lawyer to tell them this, lol)..but hey, I can pull down my pants and show you something that's out of the norm too, LOL. (ok, sorry Mods for that, but I had to LOL)
I just have a problem with someone dictating to me when I can/cannot be sick...especially when it's all covered in the employee contract...
Narrator: We need to talk.
Manager: Okay, where to begin. With your constant absenteesim, your unpresentable appearance. You're up for review.
Narrator: I am Jack's complete lack of surprise.
Manager: What?
Quote: kewljStop this entitlement crap.
Don't go collecting Social Security Benefits when you reach the mandated age...since you're not in for that "entitlement crap"...
I don't have a problem with taking a few "mental health" days as sick days each year, especially if I have weeks of working 40+ hours or have a complex challenge in front or behind me. All of my job is mental.
Speaking of work, time to get back to it.
Quote: PaigowdanIf it's really illness, you can't.
I think we have a winner!
and like I said, even if I WAS sick during the week, I wouldn't take the day off, because I find it better to have more time to recoup, than 24 hours and come back to work...
Quote: boymimboI don't have a problem with taking a few "mental health" days as sick days each year, especially if I have weeks of working 40+ hours or have a complex challenge in front or behind me. All of my job is mental.
Stop cheating your company out of time you COULD be at work! Tough up! LOL
Quote: TIMSPEEDDon't go collecting Social Security Benefits when you reach the mandated age...since you're not in for that "entitlement crap"...
Not planning on it. I am 35+ years away from the current mandated age. I don't expect there to be anything there when I get there, despite having paid into the system. I suspect, my participation will fund other people's retirement but not my own as it was intended. Either way, I am and will be providing for myself.
Quote: kewljNot planning on it. I am 35+ years away from the current mandated age. I don't expect there to be anything there when I get there, despite having paid into the system. I suspect, my participation will fund other people's retirement but not my own as it was intended. Either way, I am and will be providing for myself.
God Bless the USA : )
Quote: kewljYou folks are getting paid to stay home when you are sick. Paid to go to the beach and rest (vacation). Personal time off?? lol This whole concept seems very socialistic to me.
Being self employed, I make money when I work. If I am sick and miss considerable time, like 3 months last year, I don't make money. If I choose to go lounge around the pool or beach for a few days, I don't make money. I am not dependent on someone to pay me for not working. Doesn't this sound more like the way it should be?? :)
My sarcasm detector is not working properly. Is this serious or a joke?
For those who say "suck it up" and don't take time off unless you're ill, I will remind you that pretty much everything is negotiated and what counts is your total compensation, including benefits. What buckets you put the pieces in doesn't matter.
Quote: FinsRuleMy sarcasm detector is not working properly. Is this serious or a joke?
:)
I think I'll call over to Stations Casinos and tell them, I have a headache today and can't play blackjack. Could they send me my sick pay. lol
Quote: steeldcoI kind of find this thread a bit much. I can readily state that I've been one of the sick ones thru a good deal of my life and readily admit that I had taken alot of time off. Having said that, I do not think that it is fair that I be helped with time off while a healthy individual does not get that same benefit. Which is why in my management career, I have always done away with "sick" time and just allowed paid time off. It is even handed and doesn't create ill will.
For those who say "suck it up" and don't take time off unless you're ill, I will remind you that pretty much everything is negotiated and what counts is your total compensation, including benefits. What buckets you put the pieces in doesn't matter.
I appreciate this perspective, steeldco. I am outside the traditional work force, so I guess I don't understand all the politics involved. Just seems a little strange to me to have a guy come on the message board and bi*ch about not getting his sicks days when he is not sick. ??? lol Hard for me to grasp. :(
And now that it has finally warmed up to 50's here in vegas, I can head out to 'work'. (otherwise I won't make any money, as it should be....lol) :)
Quote: TIMSPEEDI just have a problem with someone dictating to me when I can/cannot be sick...especially when it's all covered in the employee contract...
Contracts are usually reserved for independent contractors. Did you actually sign a contract? Or just an employment agreement? This is just a curiosity question on my part.
But, you are right, you definitely have the right to be upset at the company for picking on you or trying to dictate when you can/cannot use your sick time, since you are following things within their rule set. However, at the same time that you have the right to be upset, try to understand that your employer also has the right to be upset. They may have allocated sick leave for your use should you need, but had no intention of anybody actually using all of their sick days each year, and certainly not in the manner in which you are doing so.
By all means, game the system. I certainly did when I worked for companies. The numbers of things I did with health and dental insurance are beyond belief. At the same time, to relate this thread to the website, don't be surprised if the company reads you the trespass act and escorts you off the property. If you're going to count cards and take advantage of them, they may no longer want your services.
;-)
Too many people live to work and not work to live. But if your boss says knock it off I guess you have to.
Quote: FarFromVegasA lot of women have to use their sick days when they aren't sick but one of their children is and has to stay home from school/daycare. So there is a precedent for using those days when you yourself aren't sick.
Why are you limiting this to women? Men also miss time for child illness. And in many companies, this is a valid use of a sick day, which is in my opinion another reason to go to PTO, so that there is equity among employees regardless if they have kids.
Quote: FarFromVegasA lot of women have to use their sick days when they aren't sick but one of their children is and has to stay home from school/daycare. So there is a precedent for using those days when you yourself aren't sick. My husband misses a bunch of Monday mornings because he travels on the weekend but he is self-employed and has set up his schedule so that those are flexible and he's not on salary anyway.
Too many people live to work and not work to live. But if your boss says knock it off I guess you have to.
Whoa whoa whoa? Only women have to use sick days when they aren't sick, but their children are?
Besides the stereotyping, your child being sick is a valid use of sick time.
Employers are generally pretty lenient on this type of stuff, but the people who push the boundaries on every issue are usually the first to go when cuts are made...
Quote: FarFromVegasA lot of women have to use their sick days when they aren't sick but one of their children is and has to stay home from school/daycare. So there is a precedent for using those days when you yourself aren't sick. My husband misses a bunch of Monday mornings because he travels on the weekend but he is self-employed and has set up his schedule so that those are flexible and he's not on salary anyway.
Too many people live to work and not work to live. But if your boss says knock it off I guess you have to.
Well spoken, and thanks for adding your womanly perspective :)
And Doc...i work in a sick-filled environment...
Quote: FarFromVegasBut there is a precedence for taking a sick day when you yourself aren't sick, and that's what the boss was objecting to.
True, but the OP didn't mention his boss objecting to the use of sick days to care for ill children. I agree there are exceptions, in some companies you can use sick time for routine doctor appointments. In all cases, the company would be well advised to have the rules documented and available to employees.
Quote: MidwestAPTrue, but the OP didn't mention his boss objecting to the use of sick days to care for ill children. I agree there are exceptions, in some companies you can use sick time for routine doctor appointments. In all cases, the company would be well advised to have the rules documented and available to employees.
I think they need to have the rules documented if they don't wish for someone to interpret 22 days off as 22 days off as TIMSPEED has!
Quote: FarFromVegasI think they need to have the rules documented if they don't wish for someone to interpret 22 days off as 22 days off as TIMSPEED has!
Correct!
The contract simply says "sick leave"
Tim- I understand your thoughts, but if they wanted you to use all those days 'no matter what', they wouldn't call them sick days! And I don't know what your career goals are, but right or wrong, your behavior has been noticed by your bosses and I can't imagine it is good for you.
Quote: SOOPOOI work in a small group of partner physicians. If a partner calls in sick another partner who was supposed to be off has to work. Over my 9 years here we average well under one sick day per person per year, if I can exclude a single long term disability for a partner who underwent open heart surgery. I remember calling in sick two days in my 25 year career, and missing one week for knee surgery. I have a ton of sick days accumulated, and will get some sort of pension credit, worth far less than an actual day of work, when I eventually retire. No cash value for the days. I just couldn't imagine looking my partners in the face after calling in sick, having someone else have to do my work, if I wasn't really sick.
Tim- I understand your thoughts, but if they wanted you to use all those days 'no matter what', they wouldn't call them sick days! And I don't know what your career goals are, but right or wrong, your behavior has been noticed by your bosses and I can't imagine it is good for you.
Soopoo, so I guess that Tim should entitled to a similar compensation package as yourself since you are trying to equate the two positions?
Quote: steeldcoSoopoo, so I guess that Tim should entitled to a similar compensation package as yourself since you are trying to equate the two positions?
Soopoo is more than equiped to defend himself, but I agree with his point regardless profession. When someone calls in sick, it puts a burden on others who do not call in sick. Therefore to use the company provided benefit of paid sick days should only be done when one is to sick to work (or other covered reason).
