ID needed to vote?
Poll
 | 26 votes (81.25%) | ||
| | 6 votes (18.75%) |
32 members have voted
Quote: MoscaIs this poll "I agree", or is this poll "In my state you need an ID"?
I guess I meant 'Should every voter in the Federal election be required to produce an ID?"
But I am still MORE shocked that EVERY CITIZEN isn't required to have one.
The great white Hope of the GOP..
I do think an ID should be required to vote.
I do not think that anyone should have to pay for it directly,
And I think there should be exceptions for people born before WWII,
Quote: WongBoAh, disenfranchisement.
The great white Hope of the GOP..
Yeah, those GOP meanies don't want dead people and made-up names on ACORN generated voter registration cards to vote!
Quote:I do think an ID should be required to vote.
I do not think that anyone should have to pay for it directly,
And I think there should be exceptions for people born before WWII,
States that have ID laws are generally allowing some sort of free ID. Personally I cannot see how having to pay $25 to get an ID so you can function in society but it that is what it takes I have to concede that is what it takes.
I do not see why there should be an exception for people born before WWII. Are you telling me that these people somehow survived to age 66 or more wothout getting any kind of ID to:
Drive a car
Hold a legit job (form I-9 requires it)
Serve in the military, as most males would have
Those are just the most basics for the older ones. If you keep at it, lack of ID is even more impossible. Look at how many people are on Food Stamps today. By simple logic, you have to be poor to be on food stamps. Democrats say "the poor don't have or can't get ID!" Well, all the food stamp recipients alone requires ID. At least if did when I had to check for it, thus at the least they could issue it again.
Quite simply, the only reasons to be against ID to vote is to want to allow for voter fraud or you are a dupe of those who do.
What state do you live in?Quote: SOOPOO...But you don't need it to vote!
Here in NJ, you need ID to register to vote as well as to actually vote.
Quote: SOOPOOEvenBob pointed out that to get into the political conventions, of course you needed to produce ID. But you don't need it to vote! Most of us have a national ID, called a passport, but many do not. With all the other intrusions into our lives from government (speed limits, taxes, drug bans, conscription, etc.), I find it amazing that there is no requirement to have a formal, government issued ID!
I'm pretty neutral on this issue. I think in general, ID probably should have been required all along. That said, voter fraud is such a ridiculously minor issue that it's really not a valid reason to change the rules now. Things actually work pretty well. The .000001% of the population that commits voter fraud is probably dedicated enough to just make a fake ID or 4...
FWIW, passports aren't sufficient ID for voting purposes in most jurisdictions, since they don't confirm local residency.
Quote: rdw4potusI'm pretty neutral on this issue. I think in general, ID probably should have been required all along. That said, voter fraud is such a ridiculously minor issue that it's really not a valid reason to change the rules now. Things actually work pretty well. The .000001% of the population that commits voter fraud is probably dedicated enough to just make a fake ID or 4...
So you are saying what, that just because a small minority of people want to steal your car or break into your house that you do not bother locking them? Hey, people are going to buy radar detectors so they can speed so why have troopers patrol the highways. Very few people actually cheat in a casino so why pay all that money for survalence...........
And if there is no voter fraud, why did I hear how the 2004 election was somehow "fixed" in OH? Or FL in 2000?
Just because you think people can make fake ID or overcome the system some other way is no reason not to make the system better. The USA has a history of voter fraud. Ever hear the saying "Vote early, vote often?" I remember in history some town in KS (IIRC) sent 10 times as many votes as there were people living in the town. Don't be naive enough not to think interested parties will not register some phony names, then send some runners to precincts to pull the lever.
And if there is no voter fraud, what are you afraid of an ID law for?
Quote: AZDuffmanSo you are saying what, that just because a small minority of people want to steal your car or break into your house that you do not bother locking them?
And if there is no voter fraud, why did I hear how the 2004 election was somehow "fixed" in OH? Or FL in 2000?
And if there is no voter fraud, what are you afraid of an ID law for?
The proper analogy for Voter ID laws would be to say that since someone wants to steal my car, I should be compelled to buy an alarm.
The elections in Ohio and Florida were "fixed" by electioneers who closed polling places despite the long lines of dark-skinned people still waiting to cast their votes. I'm not sure how it matters whether or not the people in the lines were carrying ID.
I'm not afraid of a voter ID law. But, I generally don't like laws that compel citizens to spend money. Anyone not willing or able to acquire an ID is disenfranchised? I'm not sure if anyone's tried it, but I'd push a 24th amendment case and see if I got any traction. (forcing someone to pay for an ID that's only going to be used/needed to vote is equivalent to imposing a poll tax)
Quote: s2dbakerIn New York, ID is required to vote. I don't know how it is in other states but when you arrive at the polling place, you have to sign the register before you're allowed to vote and your signature is compared ( ID'd if you will ) against the signature on file. That's good enough.
I see. So you are saying if I register under a false name, then sign at the polling place under that false name, and both false sigs match, then that is OK?
Seriously?
Quote: rdw4potusThe proper analogy for Voter ID laws would be to say that since someone wants to steal my car, I should be compelled to buy an alarm.
No, a better one would be, "you are going to get sick anyways so you are compelled to purchase an "approved" health insurance plan."
Quote:The elections in Ohio and Florida were "fixed" by electioneers who closed polling places despite the long lines of dark-skinned people still waiting to cast their votes. I'm not sure how it matters whether or not the people in the lines were carrying ID.
Polls close when polls close. Anyplace I have lived the standard is if you get to the line before they close then you can vote. Show up even a minute after closure and the "line closes" which is as it should be. Polls are open about 14 hours in most places, show up on time.
Quote:I'm not afraid of a voter ID law. But, I generally don't like laws that compel citizens to spend money.
So you ARE AGAINST Obamacare then?
Quote:Anyone not willing or able to acquire an ID is disenfranchised? I'm not sure if anyone's tried it, but I'd push a 24th amendment case and see if I got any traction. (forcing someone to pay for an ID that's only going to be used/needed to vote is equivalent to imposing a poll tax)
Faulty analogy since pretty much every state has a free ID for those people who claim not to have one for any other reason, which is nonsense anyways since you cannot survive in the legit economy without one.
Quote: AZDuffmanI see. So you are saying if I register under a false name, then sign at the polling place under that false name, and both false sigs match, then that is OK?
Seriously?
Sure, why not? Even under that set of rules, fraud is almost non-existent. Most perpetrators of voter fraud are white, most people without ID are not. Do conservatives really think the rest of us can't see through this shit? It's both tiring and maddening. It doesn't make us like you. It doesn't make us want to vote for you. It makes you look like d-bags.
Quote: SOOPOOI guess I meant 'Should every voter in the Federal election be required to produce an ID?"
But I am still MORE shocked that EVERY CITIZEN isn't required to have one.
Okay, thanks. Then I'll cast my vote as NO. I do not believe that voters should have to produce IDs.
Quote: AZDuffmanSo you are saying what, that just because a small minority of people want to steal your car or break into your house that you do not bother locking them? Hey, people are going to buy radar detectors so they can speed so why have troopers patrol the highways. Very few people actually cheat in a casino so why pay all that money for survalence...........
And if there is no voter fraud, why did I hear how the 2004 election was somehow "fixed" in OH? Or FL in 2000?
Just because you think people can make fake ID or overcome the system some other way is no reason not to make the system better. The USA has a history of voter fraud. Ever hear the saying "Vote early, vote often?" I remember in history some town in KS (IIRC) sent 10 times as many votes as there were people living in the town. Don't be naive enough not to think interested parties will not register some phony names, then send some runners to precincts to pull the lever.
And if there is no voter fraud, what are you afraid of an ID law for?
Most of your argument could be adapted and applied to the kind of gun owner registration laws that are really needed at a federal level. LOL! And man did I laugh out loud. And there's a heck of a stronger reason to need them as it involves people dying daily.
Quote: rdw4potusSure, why not? Even under that set of rules, fraud is almost non-existent. Most perpetrators of voter fraud are white, most people without ID are not. Do conservatives really think the rest of us can't see through this shit? It's both tiring and maddening. It doesn't make us like you. It doesn't make us want to vote for you. It makes you look like d-bags.
So if the fraud is non-existant, why are you so concerned?
Voter ID has overwhelming support, abour 70-75%. The only ones against them are liberals who see some imaginary guy in a white sheet around every corner.
What is tiring and maddening is lefty acqusations that somehow "dark skinned" people cannot be expected to be held to the same standards as "white" voters. Voter ID is somehow racist. If you do not allow "early voting" it is somehow racist. If you do not want same-day registration, a recipie for fraud if there ever was one, that is somehow racist. Heck it is almost to the point that if every minority does not have a polling place in their living room we are somehow "disenfranchising" them.
Lets look at these terrible requirements:
1. Register under your own name
2. Make sure you have an ID, which everyone pretty much already has or can easily get
3. Get to the polling place during hours of operation, almost alway at least 12+
4. Vote
What is so hard about this?
Quote: DJTeddyBearHere in NJ, you need ID to register to vote as well as to actually vote.
To register yes. To vote no:
"TAMPA, Fla. — Voter fraud is “rampant” and “commonplace” in parts of New Jersey where greater vigilance is needed to safeguard the ballot, according to key figures in the state’s delegation attending the Republican National Convention in Tampa, Fla.
Even so, they said it is unlikely that the state will pass a voter identification law similar to what is now operative in neighboring Pennsylvania and in other parts of the country.
New Jersey Republican Rep. Chris Smith singled out Mercer County as an area where there is a strong potential for voter fraud to occur." daily caller
Quote: rdw4potusFraud is almost non-existent. Most perpetrators of voter fraud are white, most people without ID are not.
That's a pretty heavy dose of xenophobia--on both sides of the question.
Quote: AZDuffmanHeck it is almost to the point that if every minority does not have a polling place in their living room we are somehow "disenfranchising" them.
This is very slightly off-topic, but I am surprised that people may not vote on-line, at this point.
You would have to input your name, address, phone number, SSN, DOB and a pre-assigned Voter ID number.
Unless, of course, someone decides it is racist to require a voter to have been born...
Quote: Mission146This is very slightly off-topic, but I am surprised that people may not vote on-line, at this point.
You would have to input your name, address, phone number, SSN, DOB and a pre-assigned Voter ID number.
Unless, of course, someone decides it is racist to require a voter to have been born...
I think that the security needed for that will not happen in our lifetime, if ever. I realize is it WA or OR that is 100-% mail-in voting, but IMHO there is something needed about having those polling places in most people's minds.
Quote: AZDuffmanI think that the security needed for that will not happen in our lifetime, if ever. I realize is it WA or OR that is 100-% mail-in voting, but IMHO there is something needed about having those polling places in most people's minds.
I would normally agree with you, except it seems that many States permit, "Absentee Ballots," for anyone, not just people out-of-town or in the military, or what have you. I actually think the on-line thing could help curtail voter fraud because you would have IP addresses, so then if you have ten votes for six last names coming from the same residential IP address that could be a red flag.
Quote: Mission146I would normally agree with you, except it seems that many States permit, "Absentee Ballots," for anyone, not just people out-of-town or in the military, or what have you. I actually think the on-line thing could help curtail voter fraud because you would have IP addresses, so then if you have ten votes for six last names coming from the same residential IP address that could be a red flag.
The problem I have is hacking. Nothing seems safe, and with it being all in one day there is little time to respond. Perhaps after we get biometric ID on the computer.
Quote: AZDuffmanThe problem I have is hacking. Nothing seems safe, and with it being all in one day there is little time to respond. Perhaps after we get biometric ID on the computer.
You make a very good point.
Quote: AZDuffmanI think that the security needed for that will not happen in our lifetime, if ever. I realize is it WA or OR that is 100-% mail-in voting, but IMHO there is something needed about having those polling places in most people's minds.
Oregon is 100% absentee/mail-in. It's very common in Washington. I'm 24, voted every chance I got, and the only time I've ever been to a voting booth was when I was little with my mom. Every single person my age who votes (that I know) uses absentee.
Quote: DJTeddyBearWhat state do you live in?
Here in NJ, you need ID to register to vote as well as to actually vote.
Nobody IDed me when I went to vote. They asked my name, and asked me to sign next to it on the list of registered voters in the township.
Anyway I'm on the fence. There can be no poll taxes, and ID may be considered a Poll Tax. I guess I lean towards requiring ID, but then also giving out some sort of free ID.
I won't put in a vote either way unless I make up my mind.
I can remember 25 years going to Portugal and trying to explain to some young guys that their National Identity Card would cause riots in America. They couldn't understand the objection, as it was only ten years after the Carnation Revolution, and the overthrow of dictatorship. Objecting to being required to carry an ID card paled in comparison to the possibility of being thrown in jail without a trial.
But if you did a survey, I think you would be hard pressed to find to many countries that don't require ID.
Quote: DJTeddyBear
Here in NJ, you need ID to register to vote as well as to actually vote.
There was a beer tasting yesterday and I'm 63
and the girl needed a picture ID before she could
serve me. No pic, no beer. Did I mention I'm 63?
Quote: EvenBobThere was a beer tasting yesterday and I'm 63
and the girl needed a picture ID before she could
serve me. No pic, no beer. Did I mention I'm 63?
I've seen that happen before. I saw a guy in his late 70's who stood in line try to buy a beer. He forgot his ID at his seat. The girl said she couldn't serve him since an ID was required for everyone. There was steam coming out of his ears.
The lawyers used to be happy if you posted a sign "You must show an ID if you look age 35 or younger". That would keep them safe from underage drinkers. But now they say "card everyone".
I double dog dare you to try. If you succeed, I will vote for Romney.Quote: AZDuffmanI see. So you are saying if I register under a false name, then sign at the polling place under that false name, and both false sigs match, then that is OK?
Seriously?
Quote: s2dbakerI double dog dare you to try. If you succeed, I will vote for Romney.
Dare me to what, commit a felony?
Anyhow, in PA we now have Voter ID to avoid such a crime. That is what Voter ID is for, reduce fraud.
You mean a CID card? No.
Quote: rdw4potusThe proper analogy for Voter ID laws would be to say that since someone wants to steal my car, I should be compelled to buy an alarm.
The elections in Ohio and Florida were "fixed" by electioneers who closed polling places despite the long lines of dark-skinned people still waiting to cast their votes. I'm not sure how it matters whether or not the people in the lines were carrying ID.
I'm not afraid of a voter ID law. But, I generally don't like laws that compel citizens to spend money. Anyone not willing or able to acquire an ID is disenfranchised? I'm not sure if anyone's tried it, but I'd push a 24th amendment case and see if I got any traction. (forcing someone to pay for an ID that's only going to be used/needed to vote is equivalent to imposing a poll tax)
There is so much fail here I would not even know where to begin.
Requiring someone to prove who they are to vote is a poll tax? A poll tax would imply a charge to vote. An ID is multi purpose. This is like saying if a poor person has to pay bus fare to go vote then that is a poll tax too, as would gas, time lost from work, or whatever else would be an expense. I guess next we are going to start giving free taxi rides on election days? If someone has to spend money to get the polling place that is a poll tax too.
How do these people with no ID get a job? It's impossible to get a legitimate job if you cannot prove who you are. The I-9 requires it to prove that you are legal. Even if you are on welfare I would imagine you have to prove your identity in some way. You certainly would need it to cash the tax refund check every year.
The only people showing up at polls to vote that cannot prove who they are would be the dead people. There is no other excuse for it.
We also cannot pander to people who would be such an insignificant percentage and risk the amount of fraud. The positives far outweigh the negatives. Seriously, what kind of person is incapable of getting an ID?
Minorities being turned away when they try to vote? Can you link to some stories about that?
Also, it's funny that the same side that says voter ID laws are a way to force people to buy something, making it unconstitutional in their minds, are the same side trying to force people to buy health insurance.
If their identity is vouched for by a necrophiliac, why should they not be allowed to vote ?
Quote: PokeraddictThere is so much fail here I would not even know where to begin.
Requiring someone to prove who they are to vote is a poll tax? A poll tax would imply a charge to vote. An ID is multi purpose. This is like saying if a poor person has to pay bus fare to go vote then that is a poll tax too, as would gas, time lost from work, or whatever else would be an expense. I guess next we are going to start giving free taxi rides on election days? If someone has to spend money to get the polling place that is a poll tax too.
How do these people with no ID get a job? It's impossible to get a legitimate job if you cannot prove who you are. The I-9 requires it to prove that you are legal. Even if you are on welfare I would imagine you have to prove your identity in some way. You certainly would need it to cash the tax refund check every year.
The only people showing up at polls to vote that cannot prove who they are would be the dead people. There is no other excuse for it.
We also cannot pander to people who would be such an insignificant percentage and risk the amount of fraud. The positives far outweigh the negatives. Seriously, what kind of person is incapable of getting an ID?
Minorities being turned away when they try to vote? Can you link to some stories about that?
Also, it's funny that the same side that says voter ID laws are a way to force people to buy something, making it unconstitutional in their minds, are the same side trying to force people to buy health insurance.
Well, the 24th amendment doesn't mention healthcare taxes. I wouldn't mind if it did, if that's something you want to start up. And, if an ID isn't NEEDED for any other purpose than to vote, then yes the required purchase of an ID to vote is pretty much a poll tax. In your bus example, there are free shuttles and family members and any number of other ways to get to the polls (though, really, precincts are usually pretty small so walking is probably an easy option as well).
As for the I-9, here's a common way for this to happen: person gets job at age 14 or 15. I-9 is satisfied by report card or doctor's report and birth certificate in the absence of a government-issued photo id. Person then keeps the job and doesn't get a drivers license until well after their 18th birthday, but wants to vote at 18.
Quote: rdw4potusWell, the 24th amendment doesn't mention healthcare taxes. I wouldn't mind if it did, if that's something you want to start up. And, if an ID isn't NEEDED for any other purpose than to vote, then yes the required purchase of an ID to vote is pretty much a poll tax. In your bus example, there are free shuttles and family members and any number of other ways to get to the polls (though, really, precincts are usually pretty small so walking is probably an easy option as well).
As for the I-9, here's a common way for this to happen: person gets job at age 14 or 15. I-9 is satisfied by report card or doctor's report and birth certificate in the absence of a government-issued photo id. Person then keeps the job and doesn't get a drivers license until well after their 18th birthday, but wants to vote at 18.
I guess said 18 year old does not drive, rent an apartment, get on an airplane, go to college, go to R rated movies, use public services, apply for government aid, buy lottery tickets, go to a doctor, get insurance, get a credit card, or anything else needing ID. Also, as soon as they need another job they will have to have one too. There are dozens of things an ID is needed for, voting is only one.
Also, how is said worker cashing their paychecks? Cashing their tax refund check? Opening a bank account? When they are under 18 they can do it as a custodial account but they cannot anymore when they turn 18 as they will be forced to provide the bank with ID. Now what?
Quote: Pokeraddict.
I guess said 18 year old does not drive, rent an apartment, get on an airplane, go to college, go to R rated movies, use public services, apply for government aid, buy lottery tickets, go to a doctor, get insurance, get a credit card, or anything else needing ID.
Try getting gas or electric service without 2 pieces
of ID. Or get into a casino that lets in 18 year olds.
Or buy cigarettes. Or porn. The point is, are we
being told that there are people in this country who
do NONE of those things, yet they want to vote?
I want to meet these invisible people..
Once you don't move, don't open up new accounts, stop driving because you live close to the store/ride a bike, walk it's pretty easy to go without one.
Quote: rdw4potusWell, the 24th amendment doesn't mention healthcare taxes. I wouldn't mind if it did, if that's something you want to start up. And, if an ID isn't NEEDED for any other purpose than to vote, then yes the required purchase of an ID to vote is pretty much a poll tax.
Who said purchase? We super rich Republicans will band together with our Democrat friends and provide FREE voter ID for all that already do not have an acceptable form of ID. So if it is free for those who need one, do you still have a problem with the requirement that those who present to vote have an ID?
By the way, I am not sure what ID I initially presented to register to vote, but I did not have to present ID to actually vote. I just had to sign, and the 88 year old smiling volunteer lady looked at me kindly and pointed to which booth was for me. I do not think she even actually looked to compare my signature with the one they had on file.
Quote: Pokeraddict
I guess said 18 year old does not drive, rent an apartment, get on an airplane, go to college, go to R rated movies, use public services, apply for government aid, buy lottery tickets, go to a doctor, get insurance, get a credit card, or anything else needing ID. Also, as soon as they need another job they will have to have one too. There are dozens of things an ID is needed for, voting is only one.
Also, how is said worker cashing their paychecks? Cashing their tax refund check? Opening a bank account? When they are under 18 they can do it as a custodial account but they cannot anymore when they turn 18 as they will be forced to provide the bank with ID. Now what?
Said 18 year old lives at home, works down the block, and can keep their custodial account until they pro-actively change to another bank account. Why change what's not broken. Said 18 year old probably also doesn't need a photo id to get a credit card from their own bank, or cash a tax refund check or pay check (if they're really part of the .0001% of people who don't direct deposit the money - you know it's 2012, right?).
I don't have a problem with proving who I am to register my vote. Seems a reasonable request, and getting a driving licence or other form of ID is pretty damn easy in BC and not too hard in the UK. I suspect the 18 year old with no ID isn't actually motivated to go vote. I can't vote in BC though. I'm not a resident. I haven't tried to do so illegally, and don't wish to.
of ID."
Unfortunately that can be done over the telephone. Back in the 80's I had to fight a grievance with AT&t management about worker's SSN being posted on the work schedules. Hey, it was the 80's and identity theft was not on the nightly news then.
Quote: EvenBob
Try getting gas or electric service without 2 pieces
of ID.
Xcel requires 1 form of ID, and it's satisfied by an SSN. I didn't have to give any id at all over the phone to PECO when I set up my service in Philly last week.
Quote: rdw4potusSaid 18 year old lives at home, works down the block,
How did he get a job with no ID? Impossible. No
student ID, no library card, no SS card? Not
possible, by the time you're 18 you have lots of
ID, everybody does.
Quote: EvenBobHow did he get a job with no ID? Impossible. No
student ID, no library card, no SS card? Not
possible, by the time you're 18 you have lots of
ID, everybody does.
People under 18 can satisfy the I-9 requirements with a report card or medical record and a birth certificate. no photo ID is required. Then they just need to keep that job until they're 18.
Even for my new job - I'm 31 - I used a passport card as my ID. That wouldn't satisfy many states' voter ID laws, since it doesn't prove or support residency in a given precinct.
Quote: EvenBobNo
student ID, no library card, no SS card?
SS cards don't have photos. Library cards don't satisfy voter ID laws (even if they do have a photo). Student IDs satisfy some, but not all, states' voter ID laws. You keep listing these things like they have anything at all to do with this conversation. They don't, and you know it, so its' probably a good idea to just stop now.
