Decision 2012
Quote: rxwineIt's not a stretch to imagine the IRS took the most convieninet route to suss out a shitload of work created by Citizen United ruling and looked for a way to catorgize requests by keywords.
I don't understand how you can even argue this position. The IRS flat out admitted that their keywords were "tea party". None of their keywords were related to liberal group(s).
Yes, and Fox News is a secret branch of the Republican Underground in Obama boob ville land.Quote: rxwineI mean, yes, the IRS is a secret branch of the Democratic Underground in Rush boob ville land.
Quote:The Internal Revenue Service, under pressure after admitting it targeted anti-tax Tea Party groups for scrutiny in recent years, also had its eye on at least three Democratic-leaning organizations seeking nonprofit status.
One of those groups, Emerge America, saw its tax-exempt status denied, forcing it to disclose its donors and pay some taxes. None of the Republican groups have said their applications were rejected.
NONE. None. None.
Quote:At the same time the IRS was investigating smaller groups applying for 501(c)(4) status, it gave a pass to larger organizations like Karl Rove’s Crossroads GPS or Bill Burton’s Priorities USA that were allowed to receive anonymous donations — groups that were overtly political and heavily involved in the 2012 campaign.
http://www.washingtonpost.com/blogs/wonkblog/wp/2013/05/15/report-the-irs-also-targeted-at-least-three-liberal-groups/
Quote: rxwineThe Internal Revenue Service, under pressure after admitting it targeted anti-tax Tea Party groups for scrutiny in recent years, also had its eye on at least three Democratic-leaning organizations seeking nonprofit status.
3 vs. 300? I rest my case.
Quote: rxwineNone of the Republican groups have said their applications were rejected.
NONE. None. None.
Well, the IRS speedily approved an exemption for Obama brother’s ‘charity’ while keeping 300 Tea Party groups in limbo. And let me remind you, none of those 300 groups were liberal.
NONE. None. None.
Quote: rxwineAny good liberal group worth their salt targets Karl Rove. I mean, if that's the idea.
Then why weren't 300 liberal groups scrutinized?
Quote: Beethoven9thThen why weren't 300 liberal groups scrutinized?
Probably 'cause it's easier to find right wing keywords; they have less imagination.
Quote: rxwineProbably 'cause it's easier to find right wing keywords; they have less imagination.
That's your best argument? LOL
Quote: odiousgambitNote that the IRS people called up to testify aren't defending their actions by trying to point out that what they did was "just doing their jobs". One lady took the 5th.
She was quoted (I'm paraphrasing) that she was advised since the DOJ is taking on a criminal investigation that she should protect herself on legal grounds.
I can't speak to that. But I do know that most people aren't advised to be forthcoming without a lawyer, particularly if you're being scrutinized for prosecution.
Quote: rxwineBut I do know that most people aren't advised to be forthcoming without a lawyer, particularly if you're being scrutinized for prosecution.
"Pleading the 5th" is going much further than simply being "advised by a lawyer".
Quote: Beethoven9th"Pleading the 5th" is going much further than simply being "advised by a lawyer".
Only if using a Constitutional right is going too far. I don't think I would take that line of reasoning, whether I like the result or not.
Quote: rxwineOnly if using a Constitutional right is going too far. I don't think I would take that line of reasoning, whether I like the result or not.
You like twisting words around. I said:
"Pleading the 5th" is going much further than simply being "advised by a lawyer."
...and it is.
Quote: rxwineI didn't know you were just talking about listening to a lawyer for recreation, and not for any particular use.
Apparently you think that all lawyers advise their clients to plead the 5th, which is why I said:
"Pleading the 5th" is going much further [i.e. "is completely freakin' different"] than simply being "advised by a lawyer."
________________________________________
If you want (and I can't believe I'm doing this), we can recap the entire exchange.
odiousgambit said: "One lady took the 5th."
You replied: "I do know that most people aren't advised to be forthcoming without a lawyer, particularly if you're being scrutinized for prosecution."
Since I don't know how this is a counter-argument to odiousgambit, I stated: "Pleading the 5th" is going much further than simply being "advised by a lawyer."
You countered with: "Only if using a Constitutional right is going too far." (implying that either I or odiousgambit believes that using constitutional rights is going too far)
________________________________________
I honestly don't know where you come up with this stuff. And what does any of this have to do with odiousgambit's original point that a person in the IRS has chosen not to defend herself while others are testifying?
The were, the only group that was rejected for 501(c)(4) status was a liberal group.Quote: Beethoven9thThen why weren't 300 liberal groups scrutinized?
If your lawyer advises you to take the 5th then it's not and that's what happened here.Quote: Beethoven9th"Pleading the 5th" is going much further than simply being "advised by a lawyer".
Quote: s2dbakerThe were, the only group that was rejected for 501(c)(4) status was a liberal group.
1 vs. 300? OK...
Quote: s2dbakerIf your lawyer advises you to take the 5th then it's not and that's what happened here.
You're missing odiousgambit's original point. Look at my last post to rxwine.
Quote: terapinedIf you got nothing to hide, who cares if the IRS is looking at you.
This is a very naive view to take. What happened was the IRS was used as a tool to affect the outcome of an election and other political activity. Would your view be the same if say a POTUS Romney had the IRS look into every group with "pro-choice" or "GLBT" in their name? My guess is your view would change.
What happened is the IRS did to these organizations what the mafia does to construction projects that did not pay up. In that case they would put a union inspector at the gate who would (slowly) check each and every detail of the truck coming in. Every light, tire pressure, etc. Then they would take the guy's name and call in to see if his union dues were up to date. Might take 15 minutes per truck. All the while the other deliveries line up for the same treatment, stalling work. When the contractor complained someone said, "Hey, the guy is just doing his job, don't you care about the safety of your workers?!"
So if you had "Tea Party" in your name (or if you simply dared to have a group that taught about the Constitution!)
What the IRS did was make it impossible for these groups to operate. They demanded a huge level of detail. Printouts of every web page and posting. Asked who groups met with and taught, asked who they *might* meet with and teach. My personal favorite, asked what the members prayed for in their prayers! All this to start-up groups on a shoestring. It was nothing more than local machine-thug politics where you make your opponent so tied up in legal issues he or she cannot campaign.
As to "did Obama know" my answer is complex. I don't find Obama to be the kind of operations-manager who can get into detail. All of his policies are mostly written by others, including Obamacare. What Obama is more of is the sales-manager who can fire up the troops while the lower managers wonder how they will do what he wants done. But what he has done is acted in a manner to encourage all this. He has treated the GOP, Tea-Party, and FNC as a bigger enemy than China, Radical Islam, and Russia rolled into one.
So what he did was riled the troops into a "lets make the boss happy" moment. And by doing things like dropping the Black Panther case in Philly he showed he does not care if the law is skirted to do what he wants. (BTW: I had such a boss once, the guy just wanted sales. He eventually had to plea to a misdemeanor!) Like often happens, it caught up with him.
If there is a silver lining it is that the Tea-Party movement has one of the biggest "WE TOLD YOU SO!" moments about the dangers of government control. Perhaps the people will wake up.
Some of these right wing posts are so funny. According to some on the right, since Obama became President, I've lost rights and now live in a socialist country. Huh, my life hasn't changed one Iota since Obama became president.
As to the IRS. Yes I am naïve. I'm just a regular Joe, w-2, standard deduction, report every year. Its just absurd for me to fear the IRS.
Quote: terapinedBottom line is national politics has no effect on my life.
It obviously does, or else you wouldn't have bothered voting for Obama (which you admitted earlier).
Quote: terapinedI look at national politics as entertainment....Now Obama is President, I love the outrage on the right. Just reading these posts from the right is so much fun. I can just picture the steam coming out your ears.
Four dead Americans in Benghazi...
Oh what a riot...I'm so entertained!
The former Democratic chairman, Howard Dean, called Benghzi "laughable" and "a joke." Maybe the doofus never travels overseas, but the danger has increased at least exponentially for every American who does and even worse for every American who works or just resides overseas.Quote: Beethoven9thFour dead Americans in Benghazi...Oh what a riot...I'm so entertained!
Quote: terapinedI look at national politics as entertainment. The Left was upset when the Bushes were President. Great entertainment. Now Obama is President, I love the outrage on the right. Just reading these posts from the right is so much fun. I can just picture the steam coming out your ears. Bottom line is national politics has no effect on my life. I get up, ride my bike to work, work hard, save some money, fly to Vegas, gamble. Whether Obama or Romney is in power, My life stays the same. What effects my life is local politics. Traffic, property taxes, road repair, schools, yes local politics effects my life.
Some of these right wing posts are so funny. According to some on the right, since Obama became President, I've lost rights and now live in a socialist country. Huh, my life hasn't changed one Iota since Obama became president.
As to the IRS. Yes I am naïve. I'm just a regular Joe, w-2, standard deduction, report every year. Its just absurd for me to fear the IRS.
The IRS affects all of our lives a great deal. They can basically take whatever they think they are entitled to. Wait until they enforce Obamacare and see the effect they have on us all.
I sincerely doubt that Obama knew about the IRS issue. He *might* have found out the result of the audit, but so what? The news was going to come out anyway -- it was an audit report to be revealed to the public, requested by congress.
Now, absolutely, what the IRS did was wrong. In particular, it's really bad optics to select groups based on their name in a "be on the lookout for" criteria. Combine that with the fact that the Determinations unit had to wait so long for guidance from the Technical unit. The audit report calls this ineffective management oversight, and I would agree with this.
Quote: Inspector General for Tax Administration
The mission of the IRS is to provide America’s taxpayers top quality service by helping them understand and meet their tax responsibilities and by applying the tax law with integrity and fairness to all. According to IRS Policy Statement 1-1, IRS employees accomplish this mission by being impartial and handling tax matters in a manner that will promote public confidence. However, the criteria developed by the Determinations Unit gives the appearance that the IRS is not impartial in conducting its mission.
It's just bad, but I don't think you can pin the tail on Obama for this one either.
And finally, the Justice issue getting wiretaps of the press really in order to find leaks from its federal employees to the Press is just plain wrong (and probably illegal). But once again, is this just the bad decision of Justice personnel trying to be more efficient -- instead of tapping its many many thousands of employees, tap the few journalists publishing the information? Once again, I don't think you can pin the tail on Obama on this one either.
That's why the approval rating for Obama hasn't wavered. It isn't because liberals are stupid. It's because really, Obama isn't directly responsible for any of these. You can claim that the "culture" was to protect the president, but isn't that just part of politics? You hire people who are going to do a good job for you and protect you.
Quote: terapinedThe IRS scandal, I'm just slightly disturbed. If you got nothing to hide, who cares if the IRS is looking at you. If I was targeted, I'd just shrug, I'm honest, I pay my taxes. The problem is not enough investigators and the rich and huge companies not paying their fair share.
I think part of the problem is even for those that have nothing to hide, the process itself is enough to cause a lot of damage. For example, anyone who operates a small business (such as myself) would either take a huge hit or just close their doors after being targeted. While large corporations or very wealthy individuals could hire people to handle these distractions and just pay 100k or multi-millions to defend themselves, your typical small business can't. There aren't enough hours in the day or enough money in the bank. So yes, the intimidation factor has worked with me because I have something to lose: something I've worked hard for and don't want to lose.
With regard to companies not paying their fair share, I would fully support streamlining the tax code. With the current unbelievably complex tax code, what corporation or individual wouldn't do what's possible within the law to lower their tax liability? I do. You do. Everyone does- why wouldn't you?
Come on, liberals. Quit blaming Bush. Obama and Hillary screwed up and bad.
Quote: Beethoven9thIt obviously does, or else you wouldn't have bothered voting for Obama (which you admitted earlier).
Four dead Americans in Benghazi...
Oh what a riot...I'm so entertained!
I live in a middle class neighborhood. FL Gov scott makes sure I have an easy and fast voting expereience. For me, its just around the corner at the VFW Moose Lodge , walking distance. No lines. So why not vote, its easy. Now if I lived in a Black or Hispanic neighborhood in Miami, Gov Scott makes sure those heavily Dem votes dont get counted by discouraging voters by having long lines. Why isn't the right furious about this? Servicemen have lost lives protecting our democracy so that a Gov can deny democracy to voters simply due to the area they live in. I'm a registered Republican voter and I support democracy. regardless if the voter is demo or repub.
To me the election is like sports. I vote because I care about the results. The Rays lost last nite in extra innings. I care about that but in reality it has no real effect on my life.
By the way I only register so I can voye in a Primary. Independents are barred from participating in the Primary process.
That is very sad. Whats entertaining is the right trying to blame the left. Nothing political about Benghazi, its a tragedy. Why doesn't the Tea party come out and say we need to raise taxes so we can spend more on security for our people overseas. Security and money are the issues, not Left or Right, unless you watch Faux News.
Now Relax, take a bong hit, it will all get better.
Peace
Quote: terapinedTo me the election is like sports. I vote because I care about the results. The Rays lost last nite in extra innings. I care about that but in reality it has no real effect on my life.
There's such a thing as a Rays fan?
I was at the game last night. It's the first time the Jays took a series from the Rays in over 2.5 years. How about that Bautista? Is he juicing or what? Both teams need natural grass.
Not one of whom was an American official, if one goes by the lack of response to a request for that information.Quote: boymimboAre we going to go there - to Benghazi, really? S2dbaker listed a whole pile of deaths at foreign embassies and institutions under Bush.
We were having a Jodi Arias discussion in the office today. Of course everyone wants death and of course I have a different opinion just to stir controversy. So I said that death Pen should be only used for those that kill more then 1, Jodi just killed one so no death.. The Girl accross from me said "Ed, you're just saying that to rile us up" I said "yup, in fact you should see my internet posts on the Wizard of Vegas board riling up all the Right wingers, Too much fun"
Are you serious? You're using Benghazi as an argument to raise taxes?? *facepalm*Quote: terapinedWhy doesn't the Tea party come out and say we need to raise taxes so we can spend more on security for our people overseas.
For some reason, I have a hard time believing this. Oh well.Quote: terapinedI'm a registered Republican voter
My god...I don't even know where to begin with this post. It's like a combination of Democratic talking points from today and Republican talking points from 40 years ago. First off, yes we should go there. This president loved bragging about the death of bin Laden, ending the "War on Terror", and saying that Al-Qaeda is "on the run". Then, when facts come out which undermine all of that (in an election year!), you "can't blame Obama" for hiding that information from the public and providing a false narrative (i.e. the YouTube video) in order to run out the clock until after Nov. 6th??? Wow...just.....WOW. I honestly don't know what to say.Quote: boymimboAre we going to go there - to Benghazi, really? S2dbaker listed a whole pile of deaths at foreign embassies and institutions under Bush. We can talk about the Iraq war, which was substantiated and started based on false evidence, collected by a government agency that GWB should have been responsible for. Blood is on the hand of both Bush and Obama now.....It was the CIA front office staff (Morell) who took advice from State and then removed the damaging text relating the involvement from terrorist threats. Can you blame Obama for this - I don't think so.
How do you sincerely know this when we barely know any of the facts? For example, White House logs showed that former IRS Commissioner Douglas Shulman visited 118 times in 2010 and 2011, and when a committee member asked why, Shulman's response was, "The Easter Egg Roll, with my kids." You've gotta be kidding me.Quote: boymimboI sincerely doubt that Obama knew about the IRS issue...The audit report calls this ineffective management oversight, and I would agree with this....It's just bad, but I don't think you can pin the tail on Obama for this one either.
Uh...people who freakin helped Obama get elected don't even believe that (i.e. Eugene Robinson, the New York Times).Quote: boymimboAnd finally, the Justice issue getting wiretaps of the press really in order to find leaks from its federal employees to the Press is just plain wrong (and probably illegal). But once again, is this just the bad decision of Justice personnel trying to be more efficient -- instead of tapping its many many thousands of employees, tap the few journalists publishing the information? Once again, I don't think you can pin the tail on Obama on this one either.
Sounds like 40-year-old talking points.Quote: boymimboThat's why the approval rating for Obama hasn't wavered. It isn't because liberals are stupid. It's because really, Obama isn't directly responsible for any of these. You can claim that the "culture" was to protect the president, but isn't that just part of politics? You hire people who are going to do a good job for you and protect you.
Quote: terapinedI said "yup, in fact you should see my internet posts on the Wizard of Vegas board riling up all the Right wingers, Too much fun"
Not riled up at all. Liberals are a constant source of amusement and every time I think I am judging them too harshly, they open up their mouth and say things like the Democratic congressman that blamed the Oklahoma tornado on conservatives. It is impossible to make up the things that come out of their mouths.
Quote: BeethovenThis president loved bragging about the death of bin Laden, ending the "War on Terror", and saying that Al-Qaeda is "on the run".
Or when another POTUS landed on an aircraft carrier and stated "Mission Accomplished".
Quote: BeethovenHow do you sincerely know this when we barely know any of the facts?
We know the results of the investigation by Treasury which cites management oversight and a delay in getting a ruling. That doesn't link Obama at all.
Quote: BeethovenUm...people who freakin helped Obama get elected don't even believe that
The sources you link to blame the Obama administration, not Obama. There is a difference. Just like there was a huge difference between Rumsfeld and Bush. Rumsfeld = Bush Administration, not Bush. Bush is responsible for hiring Rumsfeld, but not responsible for Rumsfeld's wrongdoings.
Certainly, Obama is to blame in hiring his senior officials including Petraeus of the CIA, Hilary, Shulman, etc. But it seems obvious to me that it was folks within the Adminstration at lower levels who are to blame for the incidences.
You're defending Obama by bring up Bush?? *facepalm*Quote: boymimboOr when another POTUS landed on an aircraft carrier and stated "Mission Accomplished".
Serious? So do you think we should suspend all pending investigations because you like the above results??? *facepalm #2*Quote: boymimboWe know the results of the investigation by Treasury which cites management oversight and a delay in getting a ruling. That doesn't link Obama at all.
So Obama has absolutely no idea what goes on in his own administration?? *no more palms left*Quote: boymimboThe sources you link to blame the Obama administration, not Obama. There is a difference.
...and Watergate was a third-rate burglary attempt.Quote: boymimboBut it seems obvious to me that it was folks within the Adminstration at lower levels who are to blame for the incidences.
Quote: boymimboOr when another POTUS landed on an aircraft carrier and stated "Mission Accomplished".
No one cares.
Quote: boymimboCertainly, Obama is to blame in hiring his senior officials including Petraeus of the CIA, Hilary, Shulman, etc. But it seems obvious to me that it was folks within the Adminstration at lower levels who are to blame for the incidences.
The job of the President is to preside, and as part of that not to be ignorant. The idiot defense can only take him so far - at a certain point, a point this wiretapping affair is well into, he's either complicit or abjectly incompetent.
Quote: boymimboOr when another POTUS landed on an aircraft carrier and stated "Mission Accomplished".
.
Maybe you didn't see the news that week. Saddam had been removed. The mission was accomplished. A new mission crept up. Similar to how immediately after WWII we were facing down the USSR before the troops even got home.
Quote: 24Bingo
The job of the President is to preside, and as part of that not to be ignorant. The idiot defense can only take him so far -.
Nixon claimed total ignorance of Watergate and I'm
sure he was right, why would he have known about
it. Didn't save him..
Quote: 24BingoThe job of the President is to preside, and as part of that not to be ignorant. The idiot defense can only take him so far - at a certain point, a point this wiretapping affair is well into, he's either complicit or abjectly incompetent.
Or it could be like Scooter Libby's felonious conviction and Dick Cheney's freedom. (Assistant to the Vice President for National Security Affairs and Chief of Staff to the Vice President of the United States)
Quote: rxwineOr it could be like Scooter Libby's felonious conviction
Yeah, now there's a dangerous felon. The Lib's prayed
for something like whats happening with Obama to
happen during the Bush years, and all they got was
Scooter Libby. His crime was perjury and false testimony,
I'm sure he was beat up in prison every day for it. Obama's
people lie every day, it will catch up with them, wait and
see.
Quote: EvenBobYeah, now there's a dangerous felon. The Lib's prayed
for something like whats happening with Obama to
happen during the Bush years, and all they got was
Scooter Libby. His crime was perjury and false testimony,
I'm sure he was beat up in prison every day for it.
Libby should have committed perjury about sex in the Oval Office instead. Then he would have walked.
Quote: Beethoven9thAre you serious? You're using Benghazi as an argument to raise taxes?? *facepalm*
terapined
I'm a registered Republican voter
For some reason, I have a hard time believing this. Oh well.[/q
Of course I'm a registered Republican. The Dem primary was a joke, Obama had it wrapped up, Romney did not. The Gingrich people flooded Florida to fight Romney. I live in a white middle class neighborhood, Gov scott makes sure I have an easy time voting, short walk, no lines. Republicans in this state are against democracy. They make sure blacks and hispanics have a hard time voting so they make sure it takes them many hours standing in line. Really sad when the right wing is obviously againts democracy.Its just a forum. Nothing here to get obsessed about.
For the FBI investigation we have the report, and the congressional witchhunt continues, and more facts will be learned over time.
For the Benghazi investigation we have the emails between State, CIA, and FBI. Talking points were changed. Was the motivation the election or to protect the investigation?
For the DoJ press scandal, more will come.
What we know right now is that Obama himself hasn't been implicated yet. Let's put the Jump to Conclusions mat away for a second. People are resigning.
In any case, the Republicans are having a great month. Too bad it's nowhere near an election!
Quote: boymimboBut there is no proof, yet, that Obama knew anything. Whether that is because no one is telling Obama because he told his aides not to tell him anything that can damage him, or whether the aides took it onto himself, or even if Obama knew, no one knows, yet.
For the FBI investigation we have the report, and the congressional witchhunt continues, and more facts will be learned over time.
For the Benghazi investigation we have the emails between State, CIA, and FBI. Talking points were changed. Was the motivation the election or to protect the investigation? [The election...one doesn't fabricate a YouTube-video-excuse to "protect the investigation"]
For the DoJ press scandal, more will come.
What we know right now is that Obama himself hasn't been implicated yet. Let's put the Jump to Conclusions mat away for a second. People are resigning.
In any case, the Republicans are having a great month. Too bad it's nowhere near an election!
Now this is completely different from what you were saying/implying earlier.
For the record, I totally agree with this post...even the bolded part!
The IRS investigation was instigated by congress and it's doubtful (in my opinion) that the president was aware of it nor should he have been -- it looks right now like something that some middle management came up with.
Benghazi looks like it was a single handed decision by the front office of the CIA to tone down the message but it was Petraeus' lead to make it about the demonstrations.
I don't watch FoxNews or CNN or MSNBC to tell me what I should say. Most of the public doesn't either.
Quote: boymimboNo, it's pretty much the same. I've read most of the text from the auditor's report (IRS) and all of the emails as published by the Post yesterday (Benghazi) and drew my own conclusions. None of what I've read or heard implicates the president directly.
The IRS investigation was instigated by congress and it's doubtful (in my opinion) that the president was aware of it nor should he have been -- it looks right now like something that some middle management came up with.
Benghazi looks like it was a single handed decision by the front office of the CIA to tone down the message but it was Petraeus' lead to make it about the demonstrations.
I don't watch FoxNews or CNN or MSNBC to tell me what I should say. Most of the public doesn't either.
The thing that is baffling me is that there are Democrat Congressmen just as upset about the IRS thing as the GOP. Not all but the standard procedure is circle the wagons. Not sure what to make if it yet. Either they figure everyone hates the IRS or hope to keep investigations as low-level as possible.
No matter what it still gives the Tea Party a huge "we told you so" moment on the danger of government power.
Quote: AZDuffmanThe thing that is baffling me is that there are Democrat Congressmen just as upset about the IRS thing as the GOP.
Its because there's a big election coming next year. When
they appoint a special prosecutor, and they will, this will
be in the news forever. Not good for the sitting Dems..
Quote: boymimboThe IRS investigation was instigated by congress and it's doubtful (in my opinion) that the president was aware of it nor should he have been -- it looks right now like something that some middle management came up with.
Benghazi looks like it was a single handed decision by the front office of the CIA to tone down the message but it was Petraeus' lead to make it about the demonstrations.
I don't see how you can come to these definitive conclusions after saying in your previous post: "Let's put the Jump to Conclusions mat away for a second."
