100xOdds
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September 17th, 2023 at 4:47:42 PM permalink
https://thenevadaindependent.com/article/after-courting-controversy-as-resort-lost-millions-resorts-world-lvs-sibella-sent-packing

He was there since the beginning.
He was Credited with bringing the stalled $4.3 billion casino megaresort to completion and persevering through a June 2021 opening during a COVID-19 pandemic.

Now he's been fired “after the company was recently made aware that Mr. Sibella violated company policies and the terms of his employment”

No fewer than three Resorts World contracts have gone to a family member of convicted drug trafficker and reputed mob associate Joseph Angelo Bravo.

Note to casino licensees: If you need someone to tell you it’s a bad look to do business with convicted felons who have a history of mob associations, maybe you shouldn’t be a casino licensee.

Call it speculation, but don’t be surprised to find other businesses at Resorts World changing management and Sibella’s personally selected casino floor pros freshening their resumes.

Sibella was head of MGM Grand for 8yrs before he moved to Resorts World Vegas.

The CFO has been named the new CEO.


Any Resorts World high rollers on this board have an insight? :)
Craps is paradise (Pair of dice). Lets hear it for the SpeedCount Mathletes :)
MrV
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September 17th, 2023 at 5:03:15 PM permalink
Only fools think that the mob REALLY left sin city.

Think "Wolves in sheep's clothing."
"What, me worry?"
Ace2
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September 17th, 2023 at 5:09:47 PM permalink
Floods last year, now fires
It’s all about making that GTA
MDawg
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September 17th, 2023 at 5:50:21 PM permalink
We know Scott. Even if I didn't play there I could call him up and get comp'ed whenever, and I've used that phone call to set up friends who are not even big players.

I never had any issues with him.

But even top players at RW Vegas would have no reason to know him or deal with him, just happens that we do is all.
I tell you it’s wonderful to be here, man. I don’t give a damn who wins or loses. It’s just wonderful to be here with you people. https://wizardofvegas.com/forum/gambling/betting-systems/33908-the-adventures-of-mdawg/
MDawg
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September 17th, 2023 at 5:51:52 PM permalink
The larger issue is that RW Vegas hasn't been doing as well as hoped, not at any point. And it's just not as luxurious a property as say, Wynn, and might never be.
I tell you it’s wonderful to be here, man. I don’t give a damn who wins or loses. It’s just wonderful to be here with you people. https://wizardofvegas.com/forum/gambling/betting-systems/33908-the-adventures-of-mdawg/
ChumpChange
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September 17th, 2023 at 6:11:01 PM permalink
Is Paris Hilton a mobstress? It's hard to tell with all that money.
100xOdds
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September 17th, 2023 at 6:30:45 PM permalink
Quote: MDawg

And it's just not as luxurious a property as say, Wynn, and might never be.
link to original post

Wait what?
The most expensive casino on the strip ($4.3B) is not as luxurious as Wynn?

It's been a while but back then i put Wynn on par with the Venetian.
Has Wynn gotten that much better in 10yrs?!
Craps is paradise (Pair of dice). Lets hear it for the SpeedCount Mathletes :)
MDawg
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September 17th, 2023 at 6:47:13 PM permalink
Quote: MDawg

How to measure luxury? as in - what is the "most luxurious" resort in Vegas?

Although Resorts World has some NICE suites, including the Crockford's Entertainment Suite we stay in regularly, my wife has been commenting that a lot of the luxury at Resorts World is specious - that the place seems more like a cookie cutter hotel with a lot of gloss over to make it look superior.

I think one way is to consider the cost of the resort versus number of rooms, taking into consideration the date built and the relative value of money from that time.

Resorts Worlds cost 4.6B to build. Cosmopolitan cost 3.9B Encore 2.6B Wynn 2.7B Bellagio 1.6B Venetian 1.5B Palazzo 1.8B

Resorts World has 3506 rooms, completed in 2021, Cosmopolitan 3027 rooms, completed in Dec 2010. Encore has 2034 rooms, completed Dec 2008, Wynn has 2716 rooms completed April 2005.

So, Resorts World per room cost was $1,312,036 per room in 2021, Cosmopolitan $1,288,404. per room in 2010, Encore $1,278,269. per room in 2008, Wynn $994,108. per room in 2005. I believe that if you consider the relative price of construction in say, 2008, that Encore put more money into its structure relative to the number of rooms than Resorts World.

If I had exact square footage sizes of these buildings I could make even better comparisons.
link to original post



Besides the cost per room analysis, which is an industry standard way of looking at this, having stayed in both Hilton RW suites (that were later deemed Crockford's suites) and full on Crockford's suites, at least the Hilton suites are more on par with a cookie cutter high end Marriott than a Vegas luxury resort. The lack of any room service other than at Crockford's and the small portions of food and limited room service menu at Crockford's also detracts from the experience.

Keep in mind that Wynn has redone all of their rooms.

Wynn remodeled Parlor Suite, 1280 sq. ft

Wynn remodeled Salon Suite, 1817 sq. f

Resort's World suites

Venetian has redone their regular rooms, but not their suites yet. They have no plans to remodel at Palazzo anytime soon.

The over all service at Wynn is far superior to RW Vegas too. You have to spend some time staying at RW Vegas to understand how sub par it is, and we have stayed there a total of maybe two months spread out since their opening. There are just so many shortcomings at Resort's World, it just wasn't built with an eye for going all out luxury (they do have some nice toilets with built in bidet sprayers at Crockford's suites though). Just think about it - at Wynn in a salon suite you have your own private room for massage. Send the masseuse right up. They didn't even think about something like that at RW.

Don't get me wrong, there are some things at RW that are NICE. For example the ability to eat a full meal right off the Crockford's high limit lounge. That they will bring you tea in teapots not just tea bag crap in the salon (same as at Venetian).

But then, you have a dinky little layout in the Crockford's lobby in the mornings only with some fruit, tea, coffee, pastries, versus the Wynn and Encore all-day RFB lounges, plus the food lounge at Wynn high limit.

The attention to detail, and the luxury at Wynn surpasses anything else on the Strip (or in Vegas). We like Venetian for the variety and number of restaurants, but otherwise you can't really go wrong at Wynn.

Encore was pretty good too but, ironically RW Vegas ruined it - the sound coming day and night from RW's Ayu and Zouk clubs is just too much for a peaceful stay at Encore tower suites, which are directly kitty corner across from those clubs.

Also the crowd - the crowd at Wynn/Encore is just higher end than at RW. RW has quite a lot of club goers, especially evenings and weekends, versus high rollers. There's some nice eye candy at RW, but lower end eye candy than you'll find Thursday - Saturday in that corridor between Wynn and Encore.
Last edited by: MDawg on Sep 17, 2023
I tell you it’s wonderful to be here, man. I don’t give a damn who wins or loses. It’s just wonderful to be here with you people. https://wizardofvegas.com/forum/gambling/betting-systems/33908-the-adventures-of-mdawg/
100xOdds
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May 7th, 2024 at 2:52:37 PM permalink
So now we know why Scott Sibella was fired from RW 2 yrs after it opened.
https://www.reviewjournal.com/business/casinos-gaming/former-casino-executive-pleads-guilty-to-federal-charges-2987604/amp/

Scott Sibella, the former president and chief operating officer of Resorts World, pleaded guilty Wednesday to failing to report to federal officers about illegal gamblers playing at MGM Grand when he worked there in 2018.

1) Sibella said he was let go three days after confiding in officials that there was an investigation ongoing at MGM from 2017.
The ex-resorts exec added his dismissal was not because of job-performance concerns at Resorts World.
-----

2) Through his attorneys, Sibella issued a statement indicating he plans to continue to work in the gaming industry.

With this conviction, do you think he can get a casino license to work in a Vegas casino again?
Craps is paradise (Pair of dice). Lets hear it for the SpeedCount Mathletes :)
terapined
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May 7th, 2024 at 3:10:36 PM permalink
Quote: 100xOdds



With this conviction, do you think he can get a casino license to work in a Vegas casino again?
link to original post


Vegas : no
Another city or country : Probably
When somebody doesn't believe me, I could care less. Some get totally bent out of shape when not believed. Weird. I believe very little on all forums
MDawg
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May 7th, 2024 at 6:13:17 PM permalink


You don't have to have a license to work in a casino. All you gotta do is apply for one. The state law says you can work in a casino while they're processing your application. They got a ten-year backlog.
I tell you it’s wonderful to be here, man. I don’t give a damn who wins or loses. It’s just wonderful to be here with you people. https://wizardofvegas.com/forum/gambling/betting-systems/33908-the-adventures-of-mdawg/
mcallister3200
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May 8th, 2024 at 5:47:45 PM permalink
Dude got 1!!!!! year of PROBATION….just shrugged their shoulders and couldn’t care less. That’s going to ensure it doesn’t continue to happen as frequently.…if no jail I’m shocked you don’t get like 5 years of probation, I suppose that’s reserved for the low end drug addicts. Why even bother with the cost of prosecution.
Slotenthusiast
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May 8th, 2024 at 5:58:52 PM permalink
Quote: mcallister3200

Dude got 1!!!!! year of PROBATION….just shrugged their shoulders and couldn’t care less. That’s going to ensure it doesn’t continue to happen as frequently.…if no jail I’m shocked you don’t get like 5 years of probation, I suppose that’s reserved for the low end drug addicts. Why even bother with the cost of prosecution.
link to original post



I agree it’s a weak sentence but it was expected. The good thing is that he likely gave the feds tons of info to get rid of the groups that launder money in Nevada. This is a major problem btw. Go to any strip casino and you’ll see teams of Asians with sacks of cash blatantly laundering money. The people doing this look like they haven’t eaten, bathed or slept in weeks yet have thousands on them to put in the machines. They take pictures of the machine while they are playing and text I’m assuming their boss with the progress. All they likely get out of it are food comps and rooms to sleep in. Super sad, basically modern day slavery.

Here’s a report on how these groups operate. They target both land based and online casinos to funnel their money.

https://www.unodc.org/roseap/en/2024/casinos-casinos-cryptocurrency-underground-banking/story.html
100xOdds
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May 9th, 2024 at 8:56:57 AM permalink
Quote: Slotenthusiast

Quote: mcallister3200

Dude got 1!!!!! year of PROBATION….just shrugged their shoulders and couldn’t care less. That’s going to ensure it doesn’t continue to happen as frequently.…if no jail I’m shocked you don’t get like 5 years of probation, I suppose that’s reserved for the low end drug addicts. Why even bother with the cost of prosecution.
link to original post


I agree it’s a weak sentence but it was expected. The good thing is that he likely gave the feds tons of info to get rid of the groups that launder money in Nevada.
This is a major problem btw. Go to any strip casino and you’ll see teams of Asians with sacks of cash blatantly laundering money. The people doing this look like they haven’t eaten, bathed or slept in weeks yet have thousands on them to put in the machines.
They take pictures of the machine while they are playing and text I’m assuming their boss with the progress. All they likely get out of it are food comps and rooms to sleep in. Super sad, basically modern day slavery.

Here’s a report on how these groups operate. They target both land based and online casinos to funnel their money.

https://www.unodc.org/roseap/en/2024/casinos-casinos-cryptocurrency-underground-banking/story.html
link to original post


So the teams play high denom slots and get handpays?
So These w2-g serve as proof of where you got your $.

But how does that help the criminal supplying the illegally gained cash?
The w2-g's are in their employees names.
The criminal still can't prove where his $ came from.

Or do the employees all give the name and social security # of the criminal?
Craps is paradise (Pair of dice). Lets hear it for the SpeedCount Mathletes :)
TigerWu
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Slotenthusiast
May 9th, 2024 at 10:15:30 AM permalink
Quote: 100xOdds


So the teams play high denom slots and get handpays?
So These w2-g serve as proof of where you got your $.

But how does that help the criminal supplying the illegally gained cash?
The w2-g's are in their employees names.
The criminal still can't prove where his $ came from.

Or do the employees all give the name and social security # of the criminal?
link to original post



They could have already laundered a lot of the money by this point, and it's coming from a "legitimate" company. Running it through a casino would just make it that much harder to track.
MDawg
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May 9th, 2024 at 10:44:31 AM permalink
I've pointed this out to others, including to A.Wolf, and D.Oz, but they don't seem to get it either.

If at the end of the day, the player winds up with cash - then not much has been accomplished laundry wise because he still has to get that cash into the bank, into the stream of commerce. Just getting a W-2G along the way isn't enough to explain the source of the funds. And all of that cash inputted into the machines or tables will still be reported as long as the casino isn't asleep at wheel, via CTRs and maybe even SARs.

Which is why money laundering is defined as converting cash into non cash, which is what happens when it is deposited and then able to be withdrawn in a non-currency form. Or when cash is converted into a non-currency form such as check, cashier's check, money order, bank wire. Ideally, too, it needs to be done without a report being made about the input of the cash.

In At Close Range (1986) Christopher Walken is trying to show his son played by Sean Penn, how money laundering works. He buys a car for cash at a used car dealership, drives it across the street to a different dealership, and sells it for cash. Big deal, so he now still has cash, and even less cash than before, in his hands. And it still doesn't explain how he got the cash in the first place, to buy the first car.

In Johnny Handsome (1989), on the other hand, the "laundry service" involves rinsing stolen presumably traceable bills, for "clean" bills with no history. That makes sense, and involves something other than just money laundering. Yes they still end up with cash at the end of the process, but clean untraceable cash. And then - they still have to launder it, get it into the system, ideally without detection.

Now what Scarface (1983) was doing, trying to convert cash to checks made out to his real estate business, or paying the crooked bank/banker a percentage to deposit cash without its being reported - those were classic money laundering.

Casino Anti Money Laundering and Compliance



I tell you it’s wonderful to be here, man. I don’t give a damn who wins or loses. It’s just wonderful to be here with you people. https://wizardofvegas.com/forum/gambling/betting-systems/33908-the-adventures-of-mdawg/
MDawg
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May 9th, 2024 at 11:10:22 AM permalink
Quote: Slotenthusiast

The people doing this look like they haven’t eaten, bathed or slept in weeks yet have thousands on them to put in the machines.
link to original post


One of the common Asian superstitions is to not change their clothes or shower when they are on a winning run.

Of course, then they start losing, and now they don't eat sleep shower or change clothes because they're obsessed with playing nonstop and desperate to get their money back.

Point being that just because you see that sort of thing does not mean whatsoever that the player is money laundering. Might just be a superstitious or obsessed gambler. Additionally, for whatever reason a lot of the at least Chinese players dress, to put it nicely, very casually, in the casinos. The Japanese when I'd see them high rolling years ago in the Baccarat pits used to dress to the nines, but Chinese would and do wear more like sweats and don't often even have a decent watch on, while throwing down tens or hundreds of thousands or even millions of dollars.

I know personally of more than several Asian players who show up regularly, dump hundreds of thousands sometimes cash, and are not money launderers at all, as they withdraw zilch, just lose it all.
I tell you it’s wonderful to be here, man. I don’t give a damn who wins or loses. It’s just wonderful to be here with you people. https://wizardofvegas.com/forum/gambling/betting-systems/33908-the-adventures-of-mdawg/
darkoz
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May 9th, 2024 at 4:56:23 PM permalink
Quote: MDawg

I've pointed this out to others, including to A.Wolf, and D.Oz, but they don't seem to get it either.

If at the end of the day, the player winds up with cash - then not much has been accomplished laundry wise because he still has to get that cash into the bank, into the stream of commerce. Just getting a W-2G along the way isn't enough to explain the source of the funds. And all of that cash inputted into the machines or tables will still be reported as long as the casino isn't asleep at wheel, via CTRs and maybe even SARs.

Which is why money laundering is defined as converting cash into non cash, which is what happens when it is deposited and then able to be withdrawn in a non-currency form. Or when cash is converted into a non-currency form such as check, cashier's check, money order, bank wire. Ideally, too, it needs to be done without a report being made about the input of the cash.

In At Close Range (1986) Christopher Walken is trying to show his son played by Sean Penn, how money laundering works. He buys a car for cash at a used car dealership, drives it across the street to a different dealership, and sells it for cash. Big deal, so he now still has cash, and even less cash than before, in his hands. And it still doesn't explain how he got the cash in the first place, to buy the first car.

In Johnny Handsome (1989), on the other hand, the "laundry service" involves rinsing stolen presumably traceable bills, for "clean" bills with no history. That makes sense, and involves something other than just money laundering. Yes they still end up with cash at the end of the process, but clean untraceable cash. And then - they still have to launder it, get it into the system, ideally without detection.

Now what Scarface (1983) was doing, trying to convert cash to checks made out to his real estate business, or paying the crooked bank/banker a percentage to deposit cash without its being reported - those were classic money laundering.

Casino Anti Money Laundering and Compliance




link to original post



First off when it comes to claiming W2-G wins as income been doing it for close to a decade. I claim all 100% of my income from gambling. The IRS has no problems with it.

It's also clearly NOT money laundering because the money used to make the wagers CAME from prior gambling so not only is it legit cash to begin with but the proper thing to do.

That you give bad advice is bad enough but to use movies as your proof of legitimacy puts into question everything you say.

In Rain Man, a point is made that Card Counting is illegal. It's in Rain Man so must be true, SMH!

EDIT: That you also cannot claim that your own wins from Baccarat are income used to make future wagers calls that into question as well. Anyone who openly wins hundreds of thousands at baccarat shouldn't have to "prove" to the IRS they get income elsewhere IMHO
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terapined
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May 9th, 2024 at 5:11:45 PM permalink
Quote: darkoz



That you give bad advice is bad enough but to use movies as your proof of legitimacy puts into question everything you say.

In Rain Man, a point is made that Card Counting is illegal. It's in Rain Man so must be true, SMH!
link to original post


I agree
Turning to Hollywood to make a point in the real world ROTFL
Gee in Rounders, he let's KGB know of a tell
Yup, all the poker sharps will give up an opposition tell ROTFL
When somebody doesn't believe me, I could care less. Some get totally bent out of shape when not believed. Weird. I believe very little on all forums
terapined
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May 9th, 2024 at 5:44:30 PM permalink
"Bookies at the baccarat table: A new scandal grips Las Vegas
The case involving Shohei Ohtani’s interpreter is shedding light on a sprawling money-laundering probe -— and rattling The Strip in the process."

Washington Post has an article out
Usually the Post is behind a pay wall but I was able to read the entire article
From the article
Casinos pretty much knew about the bookies.
At the high roller celebrity golf tournaments, bookies so well known, casinos paired them with big sports gamblers doing them a favor.
Post asked the casino about this
Casino said " no comment "

Great quote here from the story regarding Nevada gaming authority below from the Post article

"Richard Schuetz, a former casino executive and gaming commissioner, said state regulators have yet to prove they can hold casinos accountable. He referred to a chapter in this saga in which regulators publicly cleared Sibella of wrongdoing a year ago — only for him to then plead guilty to similar allegations in federal court.

“I think what they mean by, ‘We started an investigation,’ ” Schuetz said of the control board, “is that, ‘We got a guy who reads the morning paper every day to see if they’re saying any more s--- about us.’ ”

https://www.washingtonpost.com/sports/2024/05/09/bookies-casinos-sibella-bowyer-boyajian/
When somebody doesn't believe me, I could care less. Some get totally bent out of shape when not believed. Weird. I believe very little on all forums
MDawg
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May 9th, 2024 at 6:29:42 PM permalink
D.Oz is wrong, as in completely off track talking about something that has little or nothing to do with the topic, but there's no real percentage in 'splaining this to him.

Meantime the guy who barely plays is chiming in lately as if he has some sort of experience with any of this.
I tell you it’s wonderful to be here, man. I don’t give a damn who wins or loses. It’s just wonderful to be here with you people. https://wizardofvegas.com/forum/gambling/betting-systems/33908-the-adventures-of-mdawg/
Slotenthusiast
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May 9th, 2024 at 7:03:01 PM permalink
Quote: MDawg

Quote: Slotenthusiast

The people doing this look like they haven’t eaten, bathed or slept in weeks yet have thousands on them to put in the machines.
link to original post


One of the common Asian superstitions is to not change their clothes or shower when they are on a winning run.

Of course, then they start losing, and now they don't eat sleep shower or change clothes because they're obsessed with playing nonstop and desperate to get their money back.

Point being that just because you see that sort of thing does not mean whatsoever that the player is money laundering. Might just be a superstitious or obsessed gambler. Additionally, for whatever reason a lot of the at least Chinese players dress, to put it nicely, very casually, in the casinos. The Japanese when I'd see them high rolling years ago in the Baccarat pits used to dress to the nines, but Chinese would and do wear more like sweats and don't often even have a decent watch on, while throwing down tens or hundreds of thousands or even millions of dollars.

I know personally of more than several Asian players who show up regularly, dump hundreds of thousands sometimes cash, and are not money launderers at all, as they withdraw zilch, just lose it all.
link to original post



They don’t play machines you get taxables on. They play marginal state AP machines with low house advantages.

I do AP and every time I go to Vegas I can spot these people from a mile away. They have unlimited bankrolls, never leave their assigned post (casino). The same people are there every day.

Point is, You’re wrong. All you have to do is watch them. They spend 16 hours a day walking back and forth each worker has their own location. They aren’t gambling for leisure, they all look totally miserable and overworked. Also leisure gamblers don’t take pictures and text their progress on the machine every 15 mins.

Also where did the “hundreds of thousands” you claim they drop come from?

The UN report I provided shows exactly what they do. The fact that the casinos allow it, is beyond me. There are know your customer laws and one would think they would approach someone spending 16 hours a day everyday in their casino putting millions of dollars thru and ask a few questions. Instead casinos turn a blind eye which is what led to Sibella getting prosecuted.
MDawg
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May 9th, 2024 at 7:13:36 PM permalink
I don't hang around slots, just table games.

But if these people are getting CTRs and SARs for their input of cash, which DRich and others have pointed out, as have I - that they likely will get paperwork turned in on them for their cash input, the W2-Gs generated aren't helping them "hide" anything. Anyone with any sense understands that.

I suppose if vast sums need to be laundered and each individual launderer is able to get the CTRs and SARs within levels that don't invoke too much concern, then the job is accomplished to some extent at least for the higher ups. Or maybe the individual spokes in the big wheel are considered expendable.

Bottom line still is that you're just looking from the outside and speculating as to what must be going on. I am a credit player so I don't play for cash buy ins, but I have personal experience with what happens at table games as far as trying to convert chips to casino check absent a verified win - meaning, that at the tables you cannot convert straight cash to casino check, only the portion attributable to a verified win may be "laundered" and then for a cash buy in player at the end of the day he's left with the same cash he started off with - minus what he lost.

This is the part that someone will have to explain to me - at table games, where there are no W2-Gs issued, and the casino is very strict about issuing cage checks only for verified wins, how do cash table game players launder money? I'd think that they end up worse off, with no government reported wins and stacks of CTRs and SARs for cash input, and CTRs and SARs for cash output too if they don't lose it all.
Last edited by: MDawg on May 9, 2024
I tell you it’s wonderful to be here, man. I don’t give a damn who wins or loses. It’s just wonderful to be here with you people. https://wizardofvegas.com/forum/gambling/betting-systems/33908-the-adventures-of-mdawg/
darkoz
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May 9th, 2024 at 7:20:26 PM permalink
Quote: Slotenthusiast

Quote: MDawg

Quote: Slotenthusiast

The people doing this look like they haven’t eaten, bathed or slept in weeks yet have thousands on them to put in the machines.
link to original post


One of the common Asian superstitions is to not change their clothes or shower when they are on a winning run.

Of course, then they start losing, and now they don't eat sleep shower or change clothes because they're obsessed with playing nonstop and desperate to get their money back.

Point being that just because you see that sort of thing does not mean whatsoever that the player is money laundering. Might just be a superstitious or obsessed gambler. Additionally, for whatever reason a lot of the at least Chinese players dress, to put it nicely, very casually, in the casinos. The Japanese when I'd see them high rolling years ago in the Baccarat pits used to dress to the nines, but Chinese would and do wear more like sweats and don't often even have a decent watch on, while throwing down tens or hundreds of thousands or even millions of dollars.

I know personally of more than several Asian players who show up regularly, dump hundreds of thousands sometimes cash, and are not money launderers at all, as they withdraw zilch, just lose it all.
link to original post



They don’t play machines you get taxables on. They play marginal state AP machines with low house advantages.

I do AP and every time I go to Vegas I can spot these people from a mile away. They have unlimited bankrolls, never leave their assigned post (casino). The same people are there every day.

Point is, You’re wrong. All you have to do is watch them. They spend 16 hours a day walking back and forth each worker has their own location. They aren’t gambling for leisure, they all look totally miserable and overworked. Also leisure gamblers don’t take pictures and text their progress on the machine every 15 mins.

Also where did the “hundreds of thousands” you claim they drop come from?

The UN report I provided shows exactly what they do. The fact that the casinos allow it, is beyond me. There are know your customer laws and one would think they would approach someone spending 16 hours a day everyday in their casino putting millions of dollars thru and ask a few questions. Instead casinos turn a blind eye which is what led to Sibella getting prosecuted.
link to original post



I take it you meant variable state AP slots, not "marginal" state.

I could see that working to some extent. On Scarab if they used the player's card of who they are laundering only on the 10th spin so a constant win is generated.

Seems an expensive way to launder although I suppose so would high denom jackpots
For Whom the bus tolls; The bus tolls for thee
Slotenthusiast
Slotenthusiast
  • Threads: 4
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Joined: May 10, 2023
May 9th, 2024 at 7:28:22 PM permalink
Quote: darkoz

Quote: Slotenthusiast

Quote: MDawg

Quote: Slotenthusiast

The people doing this look like they haven’t eaten, bathed or slept in weeks yet have thousands on them to put in the machines.
link to original post


One of the common Asian superstitions is to not change their clothes or shower when they are on a winning run.

Of course, then they start losing, and now they don't eat sleep shower or change clothes because they're obsessed with playing nonstop and desperate to get their money back.

Point being that just because you see that sort of thing does not mean whatsoever that the player is money laundering. Might just be a superstitious or obsessed gambler. Additionally, for whatever reason a lot of the at least Chinese players dress, to put it nicely, very casually, in the casinos. The Japanese when I'd see them high rolling years ago in the Baccarat pits used to dress to the nines, but Chinese would and do wear more like sweats and don't often even have a decent watch on, while throwing down tens or hundreds of thousands or even millions of dollars.

I know personally of more than several Asian players who show up regularly, dump hundreds of thousands sometimes cash, and are not money launderers at all, as they withdraw zilch, just lose it all.
link to original post



They don’t play machines you get taxables on. They play marginal state AP machines with low house advantages.

I do AP and every time I go to Vegas I can spot these people from a mile away. They have unlimited bankrolls, never leave their assigned post (casino). The same people are there every day.

Point is, You’re wrong. All you have to do is watch them. They spend 16 hours a day walking back and forth each worker has their own location. They aren’t gambling for leisure, they all look totally miserable and overworked. Also leisure gamblers don’t take pictures and text their progress on the machine every 15 mins.

Also where did the “hundreds of thousands” you claim they drop come from?

The UN report I provided shows exactly what they do. The fact that the casinos allow it, is beyond me. There are know your customer laws and one would think they would approach someone spending 16 hours a day everyday in their casino putting millions of dollars thru and ask a few questions. Instead casinos turn a blind eye which is what led to Sibella getting prosecuted.
link to original post



I take it you meant variable state AP slots, not "marginal" state.

I could see that working to some extent. On Scarab if they used the player's card of who they are laundering only on the 10th spin so a constant win is generated.

Seems an expensive way to launder although I suppose so would high denom jackpots
link to original post



No I mean marginal state. As in they take plays on advantage machines prior to it actually being a profitable play. The house edge on those is only like 5 percent.

For example you’ll see them take a 75 green major or 100 yellow mega on regal riches which is way early for profit. They get to run a ton of coin in and whatever comes out is now “clean”.
Slotenthusiast
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May 9th, 2024 at 7:30:01 PM permalink
Quote: MDawg

I don't hang around slots, just table games.

But if these people are getting CTRs and SARs for their input of cash, which DRich and others have pointed out, as have I - that they likely will get paperwork turned in on them for their cash input, the W2-Gs generated aren't helping them "hide" anything. Anyone with any sense understands that.

I suppose if vast sums need to be laundered and each individual launderer is able to get the CTRs and SARs within levels that don't invoke too much concern, then the job is accomplished to some extent at least for the higher ups. Or maybe the individual spokes in the big wheel are considered expendable.

Bottom line still is that you're just looking from the outside and speculating as to what must be going on. I am a credit player so I don't play for cash buy ins, but I have personal experience with what happens at table games as far as trying to convert chips to casino check absent a verified win - meaning, that at the tables you cannot convert straight cash to casino check, only the portion attributable to a verified win may be "laundered."
link to original post



Again read the report I posted. It outlines very clearly how they do it. It’s not just one person but THOUSANDS. They operate in teams.
MDawg
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May 9th, 2024 at 7:48:59 PM permalink
The article just says that it is done. Doesn't explain at all how it is done.

If you have read the actual report summarize for us exactly how it is done, because everything you've posted above is on par with the article. You could save us all some time by reading the entire report and explaining exactly what it says. So far, you have not.

Particularly, I'm interested in the answer to this,

Quote: MDawg

This is the part that someone will have to explain to me - at table games, where there are no W2-Gs issued, and the casino is very strict about issuing cage checks only for verified wins, how do cash table game players launder money? I'd think that they end up worse off, with no government reported wins and stacks of CTRs and SARs for cash input, and CTRs and SARs for cash output too if they don't lose it all.
link to original post

I tell you it’s wonderful to be here, man. I don’t give a damn who wins or loses. It’s just wonderful to be here with you people. https://wizardofvegas.com/forum/gambling/betting-systems/33908-the-adventures-of-mdawg/
darkoz
darkoz 
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May 9th, 2024 at 7:59:38 PM permalink
Quote: Slotenthusiast

Quote: darkoz

Quote: Slotenthusiast

Quote: MDawg

Quote: Slotenthusiast

The people doing this look like they haven’t eaten, bathed or slept in weeks yet have thousands on them to put in the machines.
link to original post


One of the common Asian superstitions is to not change their clothes or shower when they are on a winning run.

Of course, then they start losing, and now they don't eat sleep shower or change clothes because they're obsessed with playing nonstop and desperate to get their money back.

Point being that just because you see that sort of thing does not mean whatsoever that the player is money laundering. Might just be a superstitious or obsessed gambler. Additionally, for whatever reason a lot of the at least Chinese players dress, to put it nicely, very casually, in the casinos. The Japanese when I'd see them high rolling years ago in the Baccarat pits used to dress to the nines, but Chinese would and do wear more like sweats and don't often even have a decent watch on, while throwing down tens or hundreds of thousands or even millions of dollars.

I know personally of more than several Asian players who show up regularly, dump hundreds of thousands sometimes cash, and are not money launderers at all, as they withdraw zilch, just lose it all.
link to original post



They don’t play machines you get taxables on. They play marginal state AP machines with low house advantages.

I do AP and every time I go to Vegas I can spot these people from a mile away. They have unlimited bankrolls, never leave their assigned post (casino). The same people are there every day.

Point is, You’re wrong. All you have to do is watch them. They spend 16 hours a day walking back and forth each worker has their own location. They aren’t gambling for leisure, they all look totally miserable and overworked. Also leisure gamblers don’t take pictures and text their progress on the machine every 15 mins.

Also where did the “hundreds of thousands” you claim they drop come from?

The UN report I provided shows exactly what they do. The fact that the casinos allow it, is beyond me. There are know your customer laws and one would think they would approach someone spending 16 hours a day everyday in their casino putting millions of dollars thru and ask a few questions. Instead casinos turn a blind eye which is what led to Sibella getting prosecuted.
link to original post



I take it you meant variable state AP slots, not "marginal" state.

I could see that working to some extent. On Scarab if they used the player's card of who they are laundering only on the 10th spin so a constant win is generated.

Seems an expensive way to launder although I suppose so would high denom jackpots
link to original post



No I mean marginal state. As in they take plays on advantage machines prior to it actually being a profitable play. The house edge on those is only like 5 percent.

For example you’ll see them take a 75 green major or 100 yellow mega on regal riches which is way early for profit. They get to run a ton of coin in and whatever comes out is now “clean”.
link to original post



How does cashing out make it clean?

If it was that easy, just put money into the slot, then go to the redemption machine and save the receipts.

EDIT: Might be an AP play to wait for these money launderers to knock up the regal riches, then grab the seat after they leave prematurely lmao?
For Whom the bus tolls; The bus tolls for thee
Slotenthusiast
Slotenthusiast
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Joined: May 10, 2023
May 9th, 2024 at 9:32:40 PM permalink
Quote: darkoz

Quote: Slotenthusiast

Quote: darkoz

Quote: Slotenthusiast

Quote: MDawg

Quote: Slotenthusiast

The people doing this look like they haven’t eaten, bathed or slept in weeks yet have thousands on them to put in the machines.
link to original post


One of the common Asian superstitions is to not change their clothes or shower when they are on a winning run.

Of course, then they start losing, and now they don't eat sleep shower or change clothes because they're obsessed with playing nonstop and desperate to get their money back.

Point being that just because you see that sort of thing does not mean whatsoever that the player is money laundering. Might just be a superstitious or obsessed gambler. Additionally, for whatever reason a lot of the at least Chinese players dress, to put it nicely, very casually, in the casinos. The Japanese when I'd see them high rolling years ago in the Baccarat pits used to dress to the nines, but Chinese would and do wear more like sweats and don't often even have a decent watch on, while throwing down tens or hundreds of thousands or even millions of dollars.

I know personally of more than several Asian players who show up regularly, dump hundreds of thousands sometimes cash, and are not money launderers at all, as they withdraw zilch, just lose it all.
link to original post



They don’t play machines you get taxables on. They play marginal state AP machines with low house advantages.

I do AP and every time I go to Vegas I can spot these people from a mile away. They have unlimited bankrolls, never leave their assigned post (casino). The same people are there every day.

Point is, You’re wrong. All you have to do is watch them. They spend 16 hours a day walking back and forth each worker has their own location. They aren’t gambling for leisure, they all look totally miserable and overworked. Also leisure gamblers don’t take pictures and text their progress on the machine every 15 mins.

Also where did the “hundreds of thousands” you claim they drop come from?

The UN report I provided shows exactly what they do. The fact that the casinos allow it, is beyond me. There are know your customer laws and one would think they would approach someone spending 16 hours a day everyday in their casino putting millions of dollars thru and ask a few questions. Instead casinos turn a blind eye which is what led to Sibella getting prosecuted.
link to original post



I take it you meant variable state AP slots, not "marginal" state.

I could see that working to some extent. On Scarab if they used the player's card of who they are laundering only on the 10th spin so a constant win is generated.

Seems an expensive way to launder although I suppose so would high denom jackpots
link to original post



No I mean marginal state. As in they take plays on advantage machines prior to it actually being a profitable play. The house edge on those is only like 5 percent.

For example you’ll see them take a 75 green major or 100 yellow mega on regal riches which is way early for profit. They get to run a ton of coin in and whatever comes out is now “clean”.
link to original post



How does cashing out make it clean?

If it was that easy, just put money into the slot, then go to the redemption machine and save the receipts.

EDIT: Might be an AP play to wait for these money launderers to knock up the regal riches, then grab the seat after they leave prematurely lmao?
link to original post



What they do is take submarginal plays so they get the best ROI for their churn.

As for what makes it clean they are putting in cash then cashing out tickets. They can just claim they won the money or found the tickets.

Explain why day after day they take submarginal plays that will lose 100 percent of the time over the long term? There’s only one answer.

Man you guys would make the worst investigators, lol.
darkoz
darkoz 
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May 9th, 2024 at 9:58:23 PM permalink
Quote: Slotenthusiast

Quote: darkoz

Quote: Slotenthusiast

Quote: darkoz

Quote: Slotenthusiast

Quote: MDawg

Quote: Slotenthusiast

The people doing this look like they haven’t eaten, bathed or slept in weeks yet have thousands on them to put in the machines.
link to original post


One of the common Asian superstitions is to not change their clothes or shower when they are on a winning run.

Of course, then they start losing, and now they don't eat sleep shower or change clothes because they're obsessed with playing nonstop and desperate to get their money back.

Point being that just because you see that sort of thing does not mean whatsoever that the player is money laundering. Might just be a superstitious or obsessed gambler. Additionally, for whatever reason a lot of the at least Chinese players dress, to put it nicely, very casually, in the casinos. The Japanese when I'd see them high rolling years ago in the Baccarat pits used to dress to the nines, but Chinese would and do wear more like sweats and don't often even have a decent watch on, while throwing down tens or hundreds of thousands or even millions of dollars.

I know personally of more than several Asian players who show up regularly, dump hundreds of thousands sometimes cash, and are not money launderers at all, as they withdraw zilch, just lose it all.
link to original post



They don’t play machines you get taxables on. They play marginal state AP machines with low house advantages.

I do AP and every time I go to Vegas I can spot these people from a mile away. They have unlimited bankrolls, never leave their assigned post (casino). The same people are there every day.

Point is, You’re wrong. All you have to do is watch them. They spend 16 hours a day walking back and forth each worker has their own location. They aren’t gambling for leisure, they all look totally miserable and overworked. Also leisure gamblers don’t take pictures and text their progress on the machine every 15 mins.

Also where did the “hundreds of thousands” you claim they drop come from?

The UN report I provided shows exactly what they do. The fact that the casinos allow it, is beyond me. There are know your customer laws and one would think they would approach someone spending 16 hours a day everyday in their casino putting millions of dollars thru and ask a few questions. Instead casinos turn a blind eye which is what led to Sibella getting prosecuted.
link to original post



I take it you meant variable state AP slots, not "marginal" state.

I could see that working to some extent. On Scarab if they used the player's card of who they are laundering only on the 10th spin so a constant win is generated.

Seems an expensive way to launder although I suppose so would high denom jackpots
link to original post



No I mean marginal state. As in they take plays on advantage machines prior to it actually being a profitable play. The house edge on those is only like 5 percent.

For example you’ll see them take a 75 green major or 100 yellow mega on regal riches which is way early for profit. They get to run a ton of coin in and whatever comes out is now “clean”.
link to original post



How does cashing out make it clean?

If it was that easy, just put money into the slot, then go to the redemption machine and save the receipts.

EDIT: Might be an AP play to wait for these money launderers to knock up the regal riches, then grab the seat after they leave prematurely lmao?
link to original post



What they do is take submarginal plays so they get the best ROI for their churn.

As for what makes it clean they are putting in cash then cashing out tickets. They can just claim they won the money or found the tickets.

Explain why day after day they take submarginal plays that will lose 100 percent of the time over the long term? There’s only one answer.

Man you guys would make the worst investigators, lol.
link to original post



I'm better than an investigator. I am an AP with knowledge of how the slot TITO's work. What you suggest they are doing makes no sense. They don’t even need to gamble if that's what they do. Just insert cash and cash out titos. Bang I got a tito from gambling.

I don't believe this is what they do.

As for why they would play submarginal games where they will eventually lose everything that's what all ploppies do. Not sure why you ask such a question. It's what the entire casino industry is based on.
For Whom the bus tolls; The bus tolls for thee
Slotenthusiast
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May 9th, 2024 at 9:59:42 PM permalink
Quote: MDawg

The article just says that it is done. Doesn't explain at all how it is done.

If you have read the actual report summarize for us exactly how it is done, because everything you've posted above is on par with the article. You could save us all some time by reading the entire report and explaining exactly what it says. So far, you have not.

Particularly, I'm interested in the answer to this,

Quote: MDawg

This is the part that someone will have to explain to me - at table games, where there are no W2-Gs issued, and the casino is very strict about issuing cage checks only for verified wins, how do cash table game players launder money? I'd think that they end up worse off, with no government reported wins and stacks of CTRs and SARs for cash input, and CTRs and SARs for cash output too if they don't lose it all.
link to original post


link to original post



You’re stuck on the whole check thing. Sure the criminals would prefer a check. While I'm no expert on money laundering siphoning thru thousands on machines using various player cards then getting tickets doing it over and over again likely yields the same result as a check. Money laundering as I understand it, is taking ill gotten gains and trying to obscure the original source.
Slotenthusiast
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May 9th, 2024 at 10:06:50 PM permalink
DarkOz:


As a seasoned AP even you are tricked. Putting $100 in a slot and just cashing it out, is obviously extremely suspicious. Running AP while laundering is probably way less suspicious. Even to you, they look like degen poppies. They ALWAYS finish a play I’ve watched them. Never seen them leave anything ever.

Read the report. A mule can often have millions of dollars cash on them at any given time.

Ploppies don’t spend 16 hours a day in the same casino day after day only playing regal riches, buffalo ascension and scarab.

The only people who do that are AP’s. The difference is AP’s don’t take sub marginal plays 100 percent of the time and still have a bankroll.
darkoz
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May 9th, 2024 at 10:51:18 PM permalink
Quote: Slotenthusiast

DarkOz:


As a seasoned AP even you are tricked. Putting $100 in a slot and just cashing it out, is obviously extremely suspicious. Running AP while laundering is probably way less suspicious. Even to you, they look like degen poppies. They ALWAYS finish a play I’ve watched them. Never seen them leave anything ever.

Read the report. A mule can often have millions of dollars cash on them at any given time.

Ploppies don’t spend 16 hours a day in the same casino day after day only playing regal riches, buffalo ascension and scarab.

The only people who do that are AP’s. The difference is AP’s don’t take sub marginal plays 100 percent of the time and still have a bankroll.
link to original post



Based on your reply to MDawg it is quite possible they are not money laundering but simply doing a large multicarding operation.

It most certainly is likely that AP's will take suboptimal play on the games you mentioned because the real play isn't the gambling at the moment but the comps to come later.

I personally have seen lower level AP's watch me and attempt to mimic what I do and muck it up because they can't fathom my play isn't the variable or marginal state of the slot I am currently playing but the card operation.

And I am personally aware of Asian multicarding operations that dwarf my own. I clocked one that worked for at least 9 hours and must have had about a thousand cards on them.

So it's more likely that's what you're witnessing.

I suppose they could also mix money laundering into that whole endgame. It's not my avenue of expertise but not certain how if other players are getting the recorded action.
For Whom the bus tolls; The bus tolls for thee
Slotenthusiast
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May 9th, 2024 at 10:56:48 PM permalink
Quote: darkoz

Quote: Slotenthusiast

DarkOz:


As a seasoned AP even you are tricked. Putting $100 in a slot and just cashing it out, is obviously extremely suspicious. Running AP while laundering is probably way less suspicious. Even to you, they look like degen poppies. They ALWAYS finish a play I’ve watched them. Never seen them leave anything ever.

Read the report. A mule can often have millions of dollars cash on them at any given time.

Ploppies don’t spend 16 hours a day in the same casino day after day only playing regal riches, buffalo ascension and scarab.

The only people who do that are AP’s. The difference is AP’s don’t take sub marginal plays 100 percent of the time and still have a bankroll.
link to original post



Based on your reply to MDawg it is quite possible they are not money laundering but simply doing a large multicarding operation.

It most certainly is likely that AP's will take suboptimal play on the games you mentioned because the real play isn't the gambling at the moment but the comps to come later.

I personally have seen lower level AP's watch me and attempt to mimic what I do and muck it up because they can't fathom my play isn't the variable or marginal state of the slot I am currently playing but the card operation.

And I am personally aware of Asian multicarding operations that dwarf my own. I clocked one that worked for at least 9 hours and must have had about a thousand cards on them.

So it's more likely that's what you're witnessing.

I suppose they could also mix money laundering into that whole endgame. It's not my avenue of expertise but not certain how if other players are getting the recorded action.
link to original post



Multicarding could be possible, but the losses would surely dwarf any residual future comp offers. Sorry didn’t mean to attack your expertise as an AP. My fault for not explaining myself better. Ya but anyway they never leave anything.

Maybe as you said doing both. It seems like the only feasible answer unless they just enjoy losing.

When I say marginal play I’d say a 187 must hit by 200 would be considered marginal, where 190 is the play, These people would take a 180. And do it over and over. I can’t see the comp value exceeding the offers.
darkoz
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May 9th, 2024 at 11:28:26 PM permalink
Quote: Slotenthusiast

Quote: darkoz

Quote: Slotenthusiast

DarkOz:


As a seasoned AP even you are tricked. Putting $100 in a slot and just cashing it out, is obviously extremely suspicious. Running AP while laundering is probably way less suspicious. Even to you, they look like degen poppies. They ALWAYS finish a play I’ve watched them. Never seen them leave anything ever.

Read the report. A mule can often have millions of dollars cash on them at any given time.

Ploppies don’t spend 16 hours a day in the same casino day after day only playing regal riches, buffalo ascension and scarab.

The only people who do that are AP’s. The difference is AP’s don’t take sub marginal plays 100 percent of the time and still have a bankroll.
link to original post



Based on your reply to MDawg it is quite possible they are not money laundering but simply doing a large multicarding operation.

It most certainly is likely that AP's will take suboptimal play on the games you mentioned because the real play isn't the gambling at the moment but the comps to come later.

I personally have seen lower level AP's watch me and attempt to mimic what I do and muck it up because they can't fathom my play isn't the variable or marginal state of the slot I am currently playing but the card operation.

And I am personally aware of Asian multicarding operations that dwarf my own. I clocked one that worked for at least 9 hours and must have had about a thousand cards on them.

So it's more likely that's what you're witnessing.

I suppose they could also mix money laundering into that whole endgame. It's not my avenue of expertise but not certain how if other players are getting the recorded action.
link to original post



Multicarding could be possible, but the losses would surely dwarf any residual future comp offers. Sorry didn’t mean to attack your expertise as an AP. My fault for not explaining myself better. Ya but anyway they never leave anything.

Maybe as you said doing both. It seems like the only feasible answer unless they just enjoy losing.

When I say marginal play I’d say a 187 must hit by 200 would be considered marginal, where 190 is the play, These people would take a 180. And do it over and over. I can’t see the comp value exceeding the offers.
link to original post



That would depend on the formula for offers being used. I certainly can see the offers supplementing the losses. And the occasional must hit that they collect helps offset those losses.

I have done it myself although it's not my main play (combining MH with multicarding)
For Whom the bus tolls; The bus tolls for thee
MDawg
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May 10th, 2024 at 3:08:52 AM permalink
Sometimes D.Oz debates with me only to circle back to make almost the same point. 😅

And, yes, no one has explained to me how cash in cash out, solves the problem when it comes to money laundering.

Quote: Slotenthusiast

Money laundering as I understand it, is taking ill gotten gains and trying to obscure the original source.
link to original post


And no, that's not quite what money laundering is about. It is primarily about converting currency to non-currency, ideally without any cash transaction reporting to the government along the way. The guy who buys in for thirty grand cash, plays a table game, and walks with thirty grand cash hasn't accomplished anything money laundering wise, as far as I can see, in fact seems worse off now having received at least CTRs and maybe even a SAR in the process.

Here for example
https://www.lexisnexis.com/en-gb/glossary/money-laundering
the process of money laundering with regards to casinos is described as:

Casinos
On a smaller scale, individuals or groups are known to use casinos to launder illegal funds into bank accounts. These people buy chips with their cash from the casino which they then claim for a check that they deposit into their bank account, turning the cash into clean money inside a financial system.


which is exactly what I am describing has to happen. Cash in cash out doesn't seem to solve anything, money laundering wise.

This was the point of the At Close Range video - you seem to be buying into what that movie is trying to show is money laundering, which is wrong, or at best - imprecise. Imprecision is a lot of what I see on these forums, coming from people who have little or no personal experience with the topic at hand. Not that I'm out there trying to convert cash to non cash regularly, but I do know exactly what works and what does not work at least at table games in this regards.

I also know what generates a report on a currency transaction, and this occurs for over $10K cash in or out in a 24 hour period, or $3000. or more used to purchase a monetary instrument such as a money order or cashier's check. The casinos are supposed to turn in the CTRs for anyone who inputs or withdraws the $10K or more cash in a 24 hour period, no matter what game is being played.
Last edited by: MDawg on May 10, 2024
I tell you it’s wonderful to be here, man. I don’t give a damn who wins or loses. It’s just wonderful to be here with you people. https://wizardofvegas.com/forum/gambling/betting-systems/33908-the-adventures-of-mdawg/
darkoz
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May 10th, 2024 at 5:58:12 AM permalink
Quote: MDawg

Sometimes D.Oz debates with me only to circle back to make almost the same point. 😅

And, yes, no one has explained to me how cash in cash out, solves the problem when it comes to money laundering.

Quote: Slotenthusiast

Money laundering as I understand it, is taking ill gotten gains and trying to obscure the original source.
link to original post


And no, that's not quite what money laundering is about. It is primarily about converting currency to non-currency, ideally without any cash transaction reporting to the government along the way. The guy who buys in for thirty grand cash, plays a table game, and walks with thirty grand cash hasn't accomplished anything money laundering wise, as far as I can see, in fact seems worse off now having received at least CTRs and maybe even a SAR in the process.

Here for example
https://www.lexisnexis.com/en-gb/glossary/money-laundering
the process of money laundering with regards to casinos is described as:

Casinos
On a smaller scale, individuals or groups are known to use casinos to launder illegal funds into bank accounts. These people buy chips with their cash from the casino which they then claim for a check that they deposit into their bank account, turning the cash into clean money inside a financial system.


which is exactly what I am describing has to happen. Cash in cash out doesn't seem to solve anything, money laundering wise.

This was the point of the At Close Range video - you seem to be buying into what that movie is trying to show is money laundering, which is wrong, or at best - imprecise. Imprecision is a lot of what I see on these forums, coming from people who have little or no personal experience with the topic at hand. Not that I'm out there trying to convert cash to non cash regularly, but I do know exactly what works and what does not work at least at table games in this regards.

I also know what generates a report on a currency transaction, and this occurs for over $10K cash in or out in a 24 hour period, or $3000. or more used to purchase a monetary instrument such as a money order or cashier's check. The casinos are supposed to turn in the CTRs for anyone who inputs or withdraws the $10K or more cash in a 24 hour period, no matter what game is being played.
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I don't understand how you can say so much stuff correctly and then come to the wrong conclusion!

Money Laundering is INDEED about turning ill gotten gains into legit reporting sources. If you can do that within a cash in/cash out structure so be it. It is not necessary for it to be about turning cash into non-cash sources.

If that was the case hot dog vendors couldn't spend their caah money earned or would be money laundering when they deposited their cash at the bank. Certainly if they took their hot dog earned cash to the casino tables and had the money deposited into a check form you don't believe THAT is money laundering???

At a Casino a W2-G jackpot is considered legit cash for reporting. Cash went into the slot. Cash (handpay) comes out but with W2-G proof of income.

Furthermore, the W2-G doesn't even state cash in beyond the single event. Let's say a drug dealer lost ten grand at a slot and then wins a ten grand W2-G. He doesn't have to explain where the ten grand to gamble comes from. He only has to explain that single wager which is all that's listed. It might be just $50 reported as cash. Who gets questioned on $50?

But getting clean cash (not through illegal means) and then reporting it through other means is still not money laundering under the law. (Presumably the method of getting the clean money is reported for tax purposes such as the hot dog vendor example above). That's because turning cash into non-cash isn't necessary. It's only necessary to turn cash from I'll gotten gains into cash from legally gotten gains.

You are mostly familiar with table games where Winning over $1200 is not required to have a reported handpay so table game money laundering will require turning cash into bank funds to make sense.

Not so at slots. Cash in/cash out with W2-G certainly works.

What doesn't work is cash in/cash out without winning a W2-G. That we both agree on.
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TigerWu
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May 10th, 2024 at 6:12:21 AM permalink
Quote: darkoz


I'm better than an investigator. I am an AP with knowledge of how the slot TITO's work. What you suggest they are doing makes no sense. They don’t even need to gamble if that's what they do. Just insert cash and cash out titos. Bang I got a tito from gambling.
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It makes perfect sense. If it were to ever be investigated, the casinos and law enforcement would see that Person X put $1000 in a machine, didn't play a single penny, then cashed out $1000, and proceeded to do this over and over again. That red flag couldn't get any bigger.
MDawg
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May 10th, 2024 at 7:27:46 AM permalink
It also "makes perfect sense" 😆 that putting cash into machines, getting CTRs and maybe SARs for that input, then getting some W2-Gs suddenly allows the person claim that Voila! all this cash came from a legitimate source.

The only advantage I can see to the W2-G scenario is that the casino could issue a check for the winnings portion, same way they would for a verified win at table games.

What D.Oz is doing has nothing to do with some intended money launderer who has money with no possible legitimate source. He's (allegedly) doing some operation where revenue is generated via his scheme and then is running some of that revenue back into the scheme. Which is what he doesn't get - the difference between running a business where the input of cash is central to the business itself, and the cash is generated by the business itself, and money laundering - where cash is brought to some business (here, a casino) with the sole intent of laundering it through the business.

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darkoz
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May 10th, 2024 at 7:34:28 AM permalink
Quote: MDawg

It also "makes perfect sense" 😆 that putting cash into machines, getting CTRs and maybe SARs for that input, then getting some W2-Gs suddenly allows the person claim that Voila! all this cash came from a legitimate source.

The only advantage I can see to the W2-G scenario is that the casino could issue a check for the winnings portion, same way they would for a verified win at table games.

What D.Oz is doing has nothing to do with some intended money launderer who has money with no possible legitimate source. He's (allegedly) doing some operation where revenue is generated via his scheme and then is running some of that revenue back into the scheme. Which is what he doesn't get - the difference between running a business where the input of cash is central to the business itself, and the cash is generated by the business itself, and money laundering - where cash is brought to some business (here, a casino) with the sole intent of laundering it through the business.


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Question: Have you ever had a W2-G?

If you did you would know that you are given the option BEFORE being paid to have taxes deducted.

You actually can't fathom what paying taxes to the IRS does to legitimize money?
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MDawg
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May 10th, 2024 at 7:42:18 AM permalink
You're not understanding the concept of what happens when tons of unreported cash is getting CTRs and SARs. At the end of the day, unless the person has some kind of business that explains where all that cash came from, all that happens is that the government finds out that someone has a ton of unexplained cash.

The W2-G doesn't absolve the winner of having to account for the source of the cash, if that cash is excessive and generating CTRs and SARs for its input. That's just common sense, don't need to be a tax or criminal attorney to understand that.



When you got a million three, undeclared dollars, staring into a video tape camera, honey baby it's hard to convince a jury you found it in a taxicab.
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darkoz
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May 10th, 2024 at 7:52:57 AM permalink
Quote: MDawg

You're not understanding the concept of what happens when tons of unreported cash is getting CTRs and SARs. At the end of the day, unless the person has some kind of business that explains where all that cash came from, all that happens is that the government finds out that someone has a ton of unexplained cash.



When you got a million three, undeclared dollars, staring into a video tape camera, honey baby it's hard to convince a jury you found it in a taxicab.
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And what you fail to understand is that the casinos are not watching people inserting the cash into slots. And if they did, that means nothing anyway because most people just churn the same money.

For example I show up with $500 and win a 2k jackpot. I insert the 2k into the slot. You believe I now have to explain how I fed $2500 into the machine?

W2-G only shows the amount of a single wager. Technically when I file my own W2-G I don't have to explain how much money I had beyond the $50 or whatever that was wagered.

(In fact the IRS probably prefers you don't as the other wagers made most likely resulted in losses you are trying to deduct from your total win)
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TigerWu
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May 10th, 2024 at 7:56:13 AM permalink
I'm just kind of skimming the responses here so maybe I'm missing something, but it sounds like some people are missing the big picture here and getting hung up on technicalities and logistics. It doesn't matter how many W2s you get or what paperwork you have; if there is a pattern of suspicious activity, it's going to be investigated for potential money laundering.
darkoz
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May 10th, 2024 at 8:10:46 AM permalink
Quote: TigerWu

I'm just kind of skimming the responses here so maybe I'm missing something, but it sounds like some people are missing the big picture here and getting hung up on technicalities and logistics. It doesn't matter how many W2s you get or what paperwork you have; if there is a pattern of suspicious activity, it's going to be investigated for potential money laundering.
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Yes but MDawg is asserting that the simple act of winning large amounts of W2-G is suspicious and will get investigated for money laundering.
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ChumpChange
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May 10th, 2024 at 10:32:29 AM permalink
If I take 10 trips to the casino to play Video Black Jack and I win $6K each time with a $2K bankroll in my wallet each trip, I'll save up $60K in winnings in those 10 trips without any W-2G. If I want to add W-2G's, I just have to make a separate trip and separate sessions just to win W-2G's at the game with bets going above $150/hand up to $600/hand. Each win including the bet of $1,200+ generates a W-2G. According to a previous post, I can even prepay the tax on that. I don't expect the casino will cut a check on these lower level wins under $5,000/hand, so it will still set off alarms at the bank if I make a cash deposit but at least I made myself right with the IRS. I'd finish the sessions when the total of my W-2G's total my overall VBJ wins to date, and hopefully with enough cushion that any future losses in the year won't be an issue (likely a late December session).

Just taking $8K of TITOs to the cage in the early sessions won't get me a check to deposit since the cage won't know how much cash I put in the machine to begin with. I'd need a W-2G jackpot to get a check and casinos have minimums they need to issue a check be it $3K or $5K or $10K or whatever. I'd have a better chance with checks once I move on to real tables and start cashing out over $5K or $10K in wins and I could offset those wins with W-2G's from the VBJ machine if I don't want to keep a diary going for the IRS.

Since I'm not a credit player or a front money player, the cage may not be issuing me checks the way they do to MDawg. Does the cage call the pit and ask about my buy-in if I ask for a check? Or are checks only available to credit and front money players for table games unless they hit a W-2G jackpot at the table game? I'm starting to notice some of these $5 side bets are paying off over $50K to $100K+. I expect 24% taxes will be taken out of those big wins right away. Getting a check from the casino without a W-2G would make it right with the bank but not necessarily with the IRS.
Last edited by: ChumpChange on May 10, 2024
DRich
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May 10th, 2024 at 1:43:10 PM permalink
Quote: MDawg



This is the part that someone will have to explain to me - at table games, where there are no W2-Gs issued,



That is not true for all table games. If you win a bet that pays 300-1 or greater you will be issued one.
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MDawg
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May 10th, 2024 at 6:02:49 PM permalink
Quote: DRich

Quote: MDawg



This is the part that someone will have to explain to me - at table games, where there are no W2-Gs issued,



That is not true for all table games. If you win a bet that pays 300-1 or greater you will be issued one.
link to original post


That sort of thing is so rare as to be discounted in this discussion. What are you talking about, something like the fire bets at craps? There certainly are no W2-Gs at the Baccarat and Blackjack I play, where I am King. Or rather Pope.
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MDawg
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May 10th, 2024 at 6:03:10 PM permalink
Quote: darkoz

Quote: TigerWu

I'm just kind of skimming the responses here so maybe I'm missing something, but it sounds like some people are missing the big picture here and getting hung up on technicalities and logistics. It doesn't matter how many W2s you get or what paperwork you have; if there is a pattern of suspicious activity, it's going to be investigated for potential money laundering.
link to original post



Yes but MDawg is asserting that the simple act of winning large amounts of W2-G is suspicious and will get investigated for money laundering.
link to original post


I am saying that the CTRs and SARs that would be issued in the process of all those cash inputs will not be absolved by the W2-Gs received at the back end - which is also essentially what TigerWu has said.

Quote: TigerWu

I'm just kind of skimming the responses here so maybe I'm missing something, but it sounds like some people are missing the big picture here and getting hung up on technicalities and logistics. It doesn't matter how many W2s you get or what paperwork you have; if there is a pattern of suspicious activity, it's going to be investigated for potential money laundering.
link to original post

I tell you it’s wonderful to be here, man. I don’t give a damn who wins or loses. It’s just wonderful to be here with you people. https://wizardofvegas.com/forum/gambling/betting-systems/33908-the-adventures-of-mdawg/
DRich
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May 10th, 2024 at 6:42:30 PM permalink
Quote: MDawg

Quote: DRich

Quote: MDawg



This is the part that someone will have to explain to me - at table games, where there are no W2-Gs issued,



That is not true for all table games. If you win a bet that pays 300-1 or greater you will be issued one.
link to original post


That sort of thing is so rare as to be discounted in this discussion. What are you talking about, something like the fire bets at craps? There certainly are no W2-Gs at the Baccarat and Blackjack I play, where I am King. Or rather Pope.
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You tend to only think about games that you play. Just because you don't play a game doesn't mean it doesn't exist. Think of games like Let It Ride or similar, usually games that might have Bonus bets or side bets.
At my age, a "Life In Prison" sentence is not much of a deterrent.
darkoz
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May 10th, 2024 at 8:20:08 PM permalink
Quote: MDawg

Quote: darkoz

Quote: TigerWu

I'm just kind of skimming the responses here so maybe I'm missing something, but it sounds like some people are missing the big picture here and getting hung up on technicalities and logistics. It doesn't matter how many W2s you get or what paperwork you have; if there is a pattern of suspicious activity, it's going to be investigated for potential money laundering.
link to original post



Yes but MDawg is asserting that the simple act of winning large amounts of W2-G is suspicious and will get investigated for money laundering.
link to original post


I am saying that the CTRs and SARs that would be issued in the process of all those cash inputs will not be absolved by the W2-Gs received at the back end - which is also essentially what TigerWu has said.

Quote: TigerWu

I'm just kind of skimming the responses here so maybe I'm missing something, but it sounds like some people are missing the big picture here and getting hung up on technicalities and logistics. It doesn't matter how many W2s you get or what paperwork you have; if there is a pattern of suspicious activity, it's going to be investigated for potential money laundering.
link to original post


link to original post



And I am telling you that you are wrong.

One reason for your inability to understand how slot cash input isn't tracked for ctr purposes is your knowledge is limited to table games.

In table games you are given chips and paid subsequently in chips until you cash out. Showing up with $1000 buying and leaving with whatever you win is trackable.

Slots it's possible and happens all the time to anyone gambling as little as $10 a spin to input $2000, lose it, win a $2000 jackpot cash, put it back in, lose that, win a $2000 jackpot paid in cash, put that back in.

The player showed up with $2000 in his pocket and put over $6000 in cash into the slots. If he is not even using a players card, they won't even know and he'll no they aren't following every player at every slot to see how much is going in.

As for TigerWu, the same reason above, there is nothing suspicious about "churning " cash at slots. The very nature of how they set the system up makes it that way.
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