Behind The Black Dome: An Advantage Player
Quote: P90Not true. A lot of members here are APs. Though I've moved to poker and occasionally some opportunistic strikes. BJ simply attracts a disproportionate amount of attention for minimal return.
And, no, a counter doesn't make the book's worth in a few minutes. Even if one did, add time cost to read it.
Exactly. This is what concerns me - that the author seems to think that having been behind la cupula negro makes him an invaluable source of information to APs. His posts in the thread made with the implication that APs would dream to shadow some vigilancia for a day. Lack of a better sales point.
Would you rather hear surveillance operations from suits? I already mentioned that if a player believe he knows everything there is to know about casino surveillance, then the book has no value.
Quote: TDane...if a player believes he knows everything there is to know about casino surveillance
Do you?
Quote: EvenBobI've read every book on surveillance I can get my hands on.
Watched every interview I can find. Its the same basic stuff.
There's no secret handshakes, secret looks, or double secret
secrets in surveillance. They're underpaid because its grunt work.
You don't need a college degree, just show up every day and
do the job. They are also the most dispensible employee's
in the casino. Its not unusual for a whole surveillance dept to
be replaced every 18 months.
So whats new? Biometrica has finally got their act together
and can finally accurately pick out a known AP? Nope. James
Grosjean still plays pretty much anywhere he likes. Past
posters are a thing of the past cause surveillance is on its
toes like never before? Nope. Past posting teams are hotter
than ever, making big bucks. Can surveillance still find the
college girl with the biggest boobs and stay trained on her
for an hour? Yup. For 12 bucks an hour thats what I'd be
doing too.
EvenBob, since you already know, my book will not entertain you. But your opinion about surveillance leans more as a stereotype. To be fair for all surveillance professionals, your information especially the numbers are inaccurate.
Quote: P90Do you?
No I do not and no one will.
Anybody who claims to have absolute knowledge of the gaming industry is lying. It's constant change.
Quote: TDaneNo I do not
This is my point.
Do you know more than authors of other books on the subject already on the market?
What specifically do you write about that they did not?
Like I said, something that would sell a book to me is info from a security consultant that has been around half the casinos in Vegas and gives useful information about the specifics of surveillance in particular casinos.
Another thing that would sell a book to me is an ex-surveillance author that is now a professional AP, and provides not just memoirs, but exact, tested techniques based on his knowledge.
What have you got that others don't?
Quote: P90This is my point.
Do you know more than authors of other books on the subject already on the market?
What specifically do you write about that they did not?
Like I said, something that would sell a book to me is info from a security consultant that has been around half the casinos in Vegas and gives useful information about the specifics of surveillance in particular casinos.
Another thing that would sell a book to me is an ex-surveillance author that is now a professional AP, and provides not just memoirs, but exact, tested techniques based on his knowledge.
What have you got that others don't?
My own experience.
Security consultants learn from surveillance just as much as surveillance learns from them and the players.
and this from T.Dane's Ebay listing : It contains raw, firsthand knowledge provided by an actual Surveillance Operator. Contents include: Surveillance Operations Surveillance Radar: Tells and Triggers Longevity vs. Notoriety Player Toleration Skills Check: Profiles and Breakdowns Playing with Information Surveillance Q&A NRS 465 Regulation 5 Bibliography Inde
Quote: TDaneMy own experience.
.
And how is your experience different from others in the
industry who have written books.
You act like we are bullies, trying drag info out of you.
But you have yet to divulge even the smallest thing
that makes your book worth $90. Whats in it that makes
it so much different from every other book on surveillance?
You remind me of the people who would bring an antique
into my wifes shop and want 10 times what it was worth
because it belonged to 'grandma'. Because the book is full
of YOUR experience obviously means a lot to you. It means
nothing to us, why would it..
Quote: buzzpaff" This is what happens when posters twist things so to shed light, here it is."
and this from T.Dane's Ebay listing : It contains raw, firsthand knowledge provided by an actual Surveillance Operator. Contents include: Surveillance Operations Surveillance Radar: Tells and Triggers Longevity vs. Notoriety Player Toleration Skills Check: Profiles and Breakdowns Playing with Information Surveillance Q&A NRS 465 Regulation 5 Bibliography Inde
Buzz, I have no control over eBay spacing. It looked fine before I hit the 'post' button but it came out that way after I sent it.
Quote: TDaneMy own experience.
Yes, and what's special about it is?
Don't go on defensive. Go on sales pitch, but an honest one.
We aren't out to get you. It's not like all we're trying to do is help you, of course. It's more like your drill sergeant - he wouldn't take his job if he didn't enjoy calling recruits worthless maggots - but he's helping them get through it.
APs are one of the most skeptical and toughest crowds. If you can't "sell" your book on this forum, just make people want it, you stand very little chance of selling it commercially.
Quote: TDaneSecurity consultants learn from surveillance just as much as surveillance learns from them and the players.
The point was multiple casino experience. Like, say, "Game protection in Sleazars Lost Wages has been taking their cues from Paigowdan, so they think of APs as broke ludomaniacs spreading from $10. Work black and purple and you're in the clear."
Of course no one expects something this good. What, though, are we to expect, that isn't covered elsewhere?
Quote: P90Yes, and what's special about it is?
Don't go on defensive. Go on sales pitch, but an honest one.
We aren't out to get you. It's not like all we're trying to do is help you, of course. It's more like your drill sergeant - he wouldn't take his job if he didn't enjoy calling recruits worthless maggots - but he's helping them get through it.
APs are one of the most skeptical and toughest crowds. If you can't "sell" your book on this forum, just make people want it, you stand very little chance of selling it commercially.
The point was multiple casino experience. Like, say, "Game protection in Sleazars Lost Wages has been taking their cues from Paigowdan, so they think of APs as broke ludomaniacs spreading from $10. Work black and purple and you're in the clear."
Of course no one expects something this good. What, though, are we to expect, that isn't covered elsewhere?
It was never my intention to market the book to be commercially available. This is why the book has no ISBN. I do not want to see it in Amazon or Barnes and Noble. I apologize if I can't be specific. Surveillance staff change and any info released from a specific casino will always be dated. I wrote the book in general but I can only speak from my own experience. I do not represent the entire surveillance field. The book will have its place in AP and casino surveillance's history. So in the future, players and surveillance alike can look back and realize how it was done before any other future c-o-u-nn-t-e-rr software much like B/J* S-u-rR-v-e\y were available.
Quote: TDaneand realize how it was done before any other future c-o-u-nn-t-e-rr software much like B/J* S-u-rR-v-e\y were available.
Are you implying you know of software thats coming thats better
than BJ Survey? Its been around since the 90's and still being sold to
catch even hole carders now. I remember when it was called
Bloodhound when Shufflemaster owned it. Big deal, it just
makes casinos feel good to have it, its not stopping the real
pro's.
Quote: EvenBobAre you implying you know of software thats coming thats better
than BJ Survey? Its been around since the 90's and still being sold to
catch even hole carders now. I remember when it was called
Bloodhound when Shufflemaster owned it. Big deal, it just
makes casinos feel good to have it, its not stopping the real
pro's.
No I'm not. I meant softwares may (or may not) be available in the future but APs and surveillance can look back and see how it was done.
You don't have to defend yourself or your project from these guys. They quite apparently have no interest in purchasing your book, so it is useless to continue your sales pitch. Most of them really aren't your target audience anyway. Those of us in the AP community, who are your target audience, especially those of us that do so as more than just a hobby, have some interest. As LonesomeGambler said, to those of us that AP for a living, or a significant part of our livelihood, $90 is not a lot of money, if there is any kind of worth while info in your book. I value the opportunity to learn all I can from both the surveillance side as well as the pit side of the tables and pick the brains of anyone in these fields and/or just see how they (you) think. This type of info, is NOT redundant and is of a premium value to us.
I think you have done a reasonable job, notifying us in the AP community of your project. Planting the seed, so to speak. Let those seeds grow and see what happens. You will be surprised. The real AP community is a pretty tight-knit group. Everyone knows each other or knows of each other and many participate in one way or another on at least one, if not several of the sites you have posted on. I am pretty sure at least a handful of guys will purchase your book and if it is of value, word will spread quickly. I think it would be beneficial to both you and us, if you would consider some sort of appearance, either on the radio with the Wizard (GWAE) or a guest chat on one of the BJ sites. I do know and respect that you have concerns of how how such attention and the book in general are going to effect your career. Best of luck to you, and one piece of advise for when you are up in the sky looking down. Focus on the big fish. Even fisherman throw the little/medium fish back. :)
Quote: kewljAs LonesomeGambler said, to those of us that AP for a living, or a significant part of our livelihood, $90 is not a lot of money, if there is any kind of worth while info in your book.
Neither is it to me. I'm just wondering if there is any kind of worthwhile info inside.
Quote: kewljThe real AP community is a pretty tight-knit group. Everyone knows each other or knows of each other
Sure. Every AP's deepest dream is to make his identity known to every game protection guy out there. Of course, these guys are honest, so none of them ever hang out on AP forums. Except for Face. Well, at least he's honest about that, so he won't tell on us. And Dan, but he's not in protection.
Sadly I don't personally know you, so I must be a losing player. Just got lucky. And then again. And a few times more. And will tomorrow. Luck is a kinky mistress, we have 1125 more verses of कामसूत्र to go through.
To be fair, KJ has repeatedly ignored my requests to meet in person during my LV trips! I also know that he's a real player. I don't mean to diminish the efforts of anyone on this forum, and I in no way intend to imply that anyone has less valuable priority than others. But based on my (admittedly) limited experience here, very few of the players posting here are what I would consider to be legitimate APs. That is not intended as a slight and it doesn't come with an implication that non-professional players are in any way inferior; it is simply my personal perspective as someone who pays his mortgage through AP. Different lifestyles—that's all. To intelligent, potentially skilled, yet casual players, a $90 book covering a topic that's already been done to death may seem unreasonable; to a professional, $90 represents a (potentially small) fraction of an hourly win-rate, and an investment of that sum is not meaningful to any great degree.Quote: P90Sadly I don't personally know you, so I must be a losing player. Just got lucky. And then again. And a few times more. And will tomorrow. Luck is a kinky mistress, we have 1125 more verses of कामसूत्र to go through.
I doubt that I would learn much from this particular book. But if I learn even a little something, it is probably worth at least $90. If it took me an hour to make $90 in this business, I'd get a day job! On the other hand, poker players will always tell you to avoid thin value and go for the easy money, and that has a lot of merit.
Mr. Dane makes sense when he says that this book will teach nothing to those who already "know" everything. Incidentally, I've found that to be the case for advanced learning in AP in general. If you already "know" how things work, then you can never improve on your knowledge. I improve on my knowledge on a regular basis. Will a $90 book on surveillance teach me something worthwhile? Who knows? But instantly slamming it on every angle but actual monetary value to professionals is pointless.
Quote: P90Sadly I don't personally know you, so I must be a losing player. Just got lucky. And then again. And a few times more. And will tomorrow. Luck is a kinky mistress, we have 1125 more verses of कामसूत्र to go through.
What I said was that many AP participate on one or several different sites, mostly because it is beneficial to do so. You pick up information about games and promo, etc. Many at several different sites that I participate at, meet up regularly, either one on one, in small groups to play together or just socially to have a drink or in some larger type setting like the green chip parties. As LonesomeGambler points out...I don't. But even having met very few people in person, I am aware of many of them, because of participation on different sites and network regularly with a handful. That is the point I was trying to make with the small community comment. Not that if I don't know you, that you are not legit or a winning player. Com'on now. Don't be so sensitive, P90.
Quote: LonesomeGamblerTo be fair, KJ has repeatedly ignored my requests to meet in person during my LV trips! I also know that he's a real player.
I don't believe I have IGNORED your requests, LG. I usually make up some excuse. lol Don't take it personally, which I can see you already have, it's just not my thing.
Quote: LonesomeGambler$90 represents a (potentially small) fraction of an hourly win-rate, and an investment of that sum is not meaningful to any great degree.
Will a $90 book on surveillance teach me something worthwhile? Who knows? But instantly slamming it on every angle but actual monetary value to professionals is pointless.
$90 does represent an hours win-rate for me, actually about an hour and 12 minutes, as I am only a mid-level grinder type player. I am not bringing home the kind of bacon that my friend LG is, nor applying the advanced techniques that he does, but even so, it is a worthy investment. If I pick up some small tidbit that will help my longevity, it is well worth it. And if I don't pick up some specific piece of info, I get a glimpse into the mind and thought process of those on the other side and that can still be beneficial going forward.
Quote: LonesomeGamblerI doubt that I would learn much from this particular book. But if I learn even a little something, it is probably worth at least $90.
. . .
Will a $90 book on surveillance teach me something worthwhile? Who knows? But instantly slamming it on every angle but actual monetary value to professionals is pointless.
I keep thinking something similar. I've paid ninety bucks, or more, for books without expecting to make a profit as a result of having read their contents. I bought a self-published book on a specific type of antique jewellery that I like, which happens to be the only reference work on the subject, that I think cost exactly $90 (although it was printed on glossy photo paper). I've bought several academic-market books that I didn't actually need for my job, but wanted to read because of interest in the subject or authors, that easily cost more than that. I paid almost four hundred dollars for an academic-market five-DVD set last year.
Still, I think that there might be an implication of expected benefit in the pricing of this particular book. It is presumably not printed on photo stock. It is presumably not a hardcover academic-market publication produced by a university press that turns out a dozen volumes a year. Paperback self-published books go for around $30, in my experience, so I feel like asking why this one is so much more expensive is not unreasonable. Especially when, as Buzz noted, there are other books on the same subject that are cheaper -- what makes this one superior to those?
Quote: P90Luck is a kinky mistress, we have 1125 more verses of कामसूत्र to go through.
That would make a good sig. Watch out when you get to the chapters where Luck wants to drag another guy into the equation.
Quote: kewljWhat I said was that many AP participate on one or several different sites, mostly because it is beneficial to do so. You pick up information about games and promo, etc.
Sure. Some of it is even found right here and on 2x2. But active participation, meetups, community spirit?
Put it this way. MENSA accepts the top 2% of populace by intelligence. How many of that top 2% are actually in it?
Quote: LonesomeGamblerTo intelligent, potentially skilled, yet casual players, a $90 book covering a topic that's already been done to death may seem unreasonable; to a professional, $90 represents a (potentially small) fraction of an hourly win-rate, and an investment of that sum is not meaningful to any great degree.
Don't forget to add the opportunity cost of the time spent reading the book to the investment. Then add the play time cost applying its advice, if you do find something new, and the opportunity cost of not applying other advice in favor of it. Also, multiply expected extra winnings by the difference between the probabilities of said advice being good and not being good.
To a professional, who knows most that's in it, this book isn't necessarily worth just the costs above, not including the cover price. From TDane's words, it seems to rather be aimed towards the former crowd.
Anybody wanna bet $90 that this statement will become true. ROFLMAO
I have removed T Dane's real name from my previous post. Although I came upon it by accident, merely googling his book title
Now to the matter at hand. Perhaps T Dane is sincere in his effort to assist AP's while also sharing his knowledge in a book.
No problem there. But i felt that $90 was not a fair price. A few have said that if even one morsel of knowledge was attained, the book would be worth more than $90 to them. I will not argue that point as it is indeed valid. Yet no one has stated they have ordered the book and actions do speak louder than words.
My major area of concern is in the marketing of said book. Per T Dane it is to be mainly word of mouth. It is listed in BJ forum, Wizard and on Ebay . Surely the author must realize that those in surveillance visit these sites occasionally. Hardly the way to keep this book secret.
Then there is the method used to drive up sales ?? On his website the book in a period of 3 consecutive days is FOR Sale,
only available by referral, and finally OUT OF Stock. On Ebay it is listed without proper search words and therefore only gets 2 views, me and Evenbob. We did not buy the book and yet the listing is closed due to unavailability ?
He did not offer a discount to forum members. He says he could not control the spacing on his listing in Ebay when challenged on
" Tells and Triggers Longevity vs. Notoriety Player Toleration "
Perhaps he is legit and actually out to help players. But so far, judging by his expertise at marketing said book, one could have cause to wonder about the book. Had T. Dane taken a less superior position and asked for guidance in marketing his book, forum members here would have been supportive. But saying this book will go down in casino surveillance might be a bit of a stretch for someone who in 10 years was able to reach the lofty position of Supervisor.
The Wiz has promised a review after reading T Dane's book and I can not see where anything more can be gained at this time. I have sold books on Amazon and Ebay and after that review will be more than happy to assist T Dane in marketing same.
P90 This is ridiculous,you can`t play 24 hours a day surely you will find time to read the book that won`t cut into your playing time.Read it when you are flying somewhere,heck read it when you`re on the toilet.
He kept trying to return it at other book stores but he and the book were on a blacklist.
Quote: HunterhillP90 This is ridiculous,you can`t play 24 hours a day surely you will find time to read the book that won`t cut into your playing time.Read it when you are flying somewhere,heck read it when you`re on the toilet.
Sure. I spend N hours flying, another T hours on the can. That's time for a couple books a month. Now, my backlog is actually more than a couple of books. Do I end this book to the end of the line, or bump it in front of others? If the latter, why?
If this was the only book in the world, it would easily be worth its price. Most any book would be, even a collection of Hebrew fairy tales.
Ha ha, sorry if that seemed like a jab, I was just joking around. It's hard to convey tone online sometimes, and I definitely have not taken it personally. As for meeting other APs in general, it usually doesn't hurt to err on the side of paranoia IMO, so your position is understood and respected.Quote: kewljI don't believe I have IGNORED your requests, LG. I usually make up some excuse. lol Don't take it personally, which I can see you already have, it's just not my thing.
I also hope the $90 thing didn't seem condescending (to you or anyone else, for that matter)—that wasn't my intent at all. I was simply pointing out that $90 is not a large amount of money to APs when it represents a very likely return equal to or greater than that amount. Even if you make $50/hr as an AP, you only need the book to give you 2 additional hours of longevity for it to be +EV. I wasn't trying to make a comment about anyone's stakes or hourly rate or anything like that.
Quote: P90Sure. Every AP's deepest dream is to make his identity known to every game protection guy out there. Of course, these guys are honest, so none of them ever hang out on AP forums. Except for Face. Well, at least he's honest about that, so he won't tell on us. And Dan, but he's not in protection.
Nope. No reason to. I'm not saying AP isn't possible, or even successful. There are folks here that have made claims that they support themselves on upper 5 figures solely from AP, and I've no reason to doubt that. But I'm surely not concerned about it. What are all the headlines filled with? Don Johnson, a result of poor marketing strategy. Wynn dice sliding, the result of terrible policy. Bacarrat shuffle snafu, more bad policy. Asian Roulette chip scam team, another poor policy incident. This is what I care about, and what brought me here.
This place taught me the majority of my gaming knowledge. Knowing how casinos work allows me to understand its weakness. And I see far more weakness from the inside than I do the outside. If one of our WoV APs puts my place on their list, maybe they take us for a few thousand. But if I focus on the off chance they do, I miss all the other stuff I focus on that adds up to untold thousands, guaranteed, everyday. AP is on my radar, by the very nature of the job, but as I've said many times before, it's very low on my priority list.
If anything, the more I learn about AP, the more resistant I become to chasing it around. We're not all $10 an hour former burger flippers, and it's easy for me to use my brain to see where I've saved the most money for my joint. I'm not sure AP even cracks the top 10. So carry on without fear from this simple hick. I'm mostly just here for the good conversation =)
I am intersted in this book, though. If I wasn't so poor, I'd buy one just out of curiousity.
Quote: Faceand it's easy for me to use my brain to see where I've saved the most money for my joint..
Which is watching the people who handle the money, watching
for mistakes. Its that way in any business. Your biggest loss is
always from people who come into actual physical contact with
the money, or have access to the money. Its not the garbage
man who gets arrested for embezzlement, its the bookeeper.
Such ambiguous replies aside, casino surveillance is fascinating to consider but I fear its worse than watching paint dry.
There are regs as to what level of surveillance is required and also as to what levels may be physically installed depending upon architectural considerations.
Most of the "watchers" are similar to dealers: low-level employees kept physically separate and paid peanuts.
Some are skilled. I've used the JDLR term before: Just Doesn't Look Right. Some people can look at a crowd and spot rail birds, toe-tappers and the like. Some just see the obvious "rubbernecking" that a criminal often engages in just to see if their are no cops around.
One classically trained musician took a summer job in surveillance and was so good he never went back to music. Most watchers are not particularly skilled however.
The readership of this forum is reminded of that poker player who snapped the Rio's annunciator showing seven 19s in a row on the roulette wheel ... and a bored craps table in the background. The photo was instantly tweeted around the gambling community but most people looked at it and noted the lack of a frenzied crowd and the lack of the slightest interest from the craps table but a few steps away. That is what surveillance is all about. You don't watch the annunciator, you watch the croupier and the players, but mainly the croupier because he is the one who will be pushing out the chips for good or for evil.
Blackjack players seated real close to each other ... and all three are males? Yes, maybe its crowded. And yes, maybe they are indeed gay, but surveillance watches for them being card passers. No bimbos in sight? Focus on them!
Surveillance is supposed to just be watching for Violations of Procedures. Did that craps dealer pay with the correct hand? Did he prove out the payment in the come area or not? Did a hand appear at the rail just as the dice landed?
With recent crimes in casino bathrooms surveillance watches bathroom approach areas.
Its mainly like any other store security work... you focus on the employees more than the customers and watch for collusion.
A chick fight suddenly breaks out? Does one of them suffer a major wardrobe failure? You won't see the dealers watching the fight. Any dealer watching it will get written up later for it. Dealers are supposed to watch their chip trays and card shoes.
Alot of what you see in Vegas is clumsy behavior, such as a "john" greeting an "escort" in the lobby area. The escort has to convert his foolish handshake into a sort of hug because she can't be seen shaking hands and then going up to his room. Some johns don't realize this and its a tad bit obvious on the monitors. The same type of non chip-theft behavior can take place on the casino floor. Surveillance sees some pretty strange things but they only are concerned about procedural violations. Some bachelorette Posse getting really drunk and flirtatious? Fine. Where are the dealer's hands? Is the dealer blocking the floor's view of the chip tray? Everything focuses on the chips and the employees.
The trouble is the field remains largely low paid Pan-Tilt-Zoom jockeys doing routine watching or building a file on a target they've been given. Very little of it is all that headline making.
The Wiz will be posting a review here. It is is worthwhile, would not the casino spring for it and hope to easily recover their $90. ?
Quote: EvenBobWhich is watching the people who handle the money, watching
for mistakes. Its that way in any business. Your biggest loss is
always from people who come into actual physical contact with
the money, or have access to the money. Its not the garbage
man who gets arrested for embezzlement, its the bookeeper.
To a point, yes. Personally, I take it even further. It's kind of out of my realm of responsibilities, but I like doing stuff like that shuffle thing I posted about last year. I could spend days chasing kewlj around in the hopes of maybe harshing his hard earned couple grand, or I could focus elsewhere and definitely save the joint many thousands of dollars each and every day. I could stop kewlj once a week for a decade and not come close to saving as much as I have saved in non-AP areas already. You know Dan's rants about how worthless practicing AP is? Change "practising" to "chasing" and that'd be my rant ;)
Quote: buzzpaffThe Wiz will be posting a review here. It is is worthwhile, would not the casino spring for it and hope to easily recover their $90. ?
I don't see how they could. Flea's excellent post sums it up nicely. There aren't secret techniques or voodoo magic that makes it happen, it's just basic stuff. Anyone here could do it. You ever walk down your neighborhood and it just feels different? If you notice it's different because the neighbor three doors down painted his house, or the lighting is different because a tree was cut down, then you're doing surveillance type work. Gaming has a flow, people act certain ways. People up to no good deviate from this flow. After you learn to recognize it, it's much like noticing a tree in your neighborhood is missing. Want to be good at surveillance? Learn to notice the missing trees. Want to avoid surveillance? Don't be a missing tree.
Quote: FaceFlea's excellent post sums it up nicely. There aren't secret techniques or voodoo magic that makes it happen, it's just basic stuff. Anyone here could do it. .
Yup, anyone. Thats why its pays so bad, surveillance
is easily replacable. Thats why I'm skeptical of any
new book. If there was something big that the other
books missed, somebody would have spilled it by
now.
Quote: Face. I could stop kewlj once a week for a decade and not come close to saving as much as I have saved in non-AP areas already. You know Dan's rants about how worthless practicing AP is? Change "practising" to "chasing" and that'd be my rant ;)
After you learn to recognize it, it's much like noticing a tree in your neighborhood is missing. Want to be good at surveillance? Learn to notice the missing trees. Want to avoid surveillance? Don't be a missing tree.
I like the way you think Face. Especially concerning chasing AP's. At least us little guys. I can see that maybe there should be some interest paid to the big hitter's and teams, but the little/mid-level guys aren't a threat and you guys have more important things to occupy your time. :)
Your 'missing tree' thought is exactly the kind of thing I was talking about. It isn't so much as some tidbit of info. Do this. Don't do that. It is a glimpse into the mind and thought process of people like yourself that can be valuable. Kind of an 'understanding your opponent' thing. I base a lot of my longevity ideas on staying within the casinos comfort level and not crossing certain thresholds. You can't learn to not cross those thresholds until you figure out and understand what they are.
Consider that card room "casino" wherein someone put some pot in the circle: cops game, it made entertaining footage, great jokes for a day or so, but the kid in the surveillance room was a burger flipper. Sure a "real" casino can pay more and will have color rather than black and white cameras and more automation with digital rather than tape recording, but its still hours and hours of staring at monitors to make sure the dealer's hands are where they are supposed to be and not where they are not supposed to be. And after you've done that you check the player's hands. I'm sure its thrilling work for about the first two weeks but after that, just how much coffee would you need to stay awake for eight hours of it.
If only everyone got it the way you do. Kudos is all I have to say there.Quote: FaceIf one of our WoV APs puts my place on their list, maybe they take us for a few thousand. But if I focus on the off chance they do, I miss all the other stuff I focus on that adds up to untold thousands, guaranteed, everyday. AP is on my radar, by the very nature of the job, but as I've said many times before, it's very low on my priority list.
If anything, the more I learn about AP, the more resistant I become to chasing it around. We're not all $10 an hour former burger flippers, and it's easy for me to use my brain to see where I've saved the most money for my joint. I'm not sure AP even cracks the top 10.
Incidentally, I've argued ad nauseam about how casinos lose much more money to ill-conceived game protection techniques than they do to APs. I was recently at a casino where every dealer was cutting < 1/2 deck off of their 6D shoes. Believe it or not, there weren't hordes of card counters lining up around the block to exploit this phenomenal penetration! There were, however, plenty of civilians making an additional 6 or 7 decisions per shoe, which is not an insignificant increase in expected profit. Critical thinking is what gets the money in AP, and it's what gets the money in casino management. Unfortunately for the latter category, there's not a lot of that going around on their side.
Quote: TDaneIt was never my intention to market the book to be commercially available. This is why the book has no ISBN. I do not want to see it in Amazon or Barnes and Noble. I apologize if I can't be specific. Surveillance staff change and any info released from a specific casino will always be dated. I wrote the book in general but I can only speak from my own experience. I do not represent the entire surveillance field. The book will have its place in AP and casino surveillance's history. So in the future, players and surveillance alike can look back and realize how it was done before any other future c-o-u-nn-t-e-rr software much like B/J* S-u-rR-v-e\y were available.
I find this first part hilarious: "it was never my intention to market the book to be commercially available". Well, I'm glad that was your intention because the reality of book marketing would say that your book is not marketable. This is why people with big imaginations and bloated egos self publish their unmarketable crap and try to sell it on Ebay as the latest greatest secret to something or other. If the money wasn't important to you, you wouldn't be looking for $90. You don't want to see your book on Amazon or Barnes and Noble. While I feel there is extremely little danger of that happening, I feel compelled to ask why any author would not want to see his/her book in such a venue?
My firm belief is there is nothing new in the "cops and robbers" game of card counters vs casino security. The very nature of what card counters do makes it absolutely impossible for them to be unnoticed if anyone cares to really watch for them. Does knowing the gruesome details and nuts and bolts of how this detection happens from the casino point of view do anything? No, except for possibly causing some minor entertainment, it is just cut and dried procedural steps. I sincerely believe that this book is just a trolling hook for card counter wannabes to glom onto in the hopes that they too, can pulverize their local gambling venues with their super sleek newly learned " 'leet " skills. And it will end up creating alot of woe for those people gullible enough to take that bait.
BJ Survey was installed in many casinos prior to 2002. This seems to make and advantage to be gained by this book of little or no value to an AP.
And this from the EVIL EMPIRE :
"Bloodhound detects and analyzes blackjack play to separate the valuable players from professional ones by precisely analyzing a player’s betting and decision strategy. Formerly known as Blackjack Survey Voice, Bloodhound identifies all types of cheating and card counting by identifying with mathematical certainty exactly what players are up to.
Bloodhound is voice activated. While watching a player’s session, an operator narrates the game (units bet, cards dealt, play decisions) into a microphone. Once the requisite information is received, Bloodhound’s software evaluates bet strategy for card counting and shuffle tracking, compares decision making versus optimal basic strategy including index plays, and determines if the player alters strategy based on the hole card or top card.
Bloodhound sifts through this data and produces player profiles that tell:
If a player counts cards
If a player tracks the shuffle
If a player catches the hole-card
If a player knows the top-card
The percent advantage (or disadvantage) a player has over the house
Advantages:
Detects card counters, shuffle trackers, hole-card and top-card players
Differentiates between card counters that can beat the casino and ones who cannot
Calculates the casino’s long-term advantage/disadvantage and long-term win/loss per hour against player
Provides precise betting and decision analysis
Analyzes players occupying one to seven positions
Analyzes one to seven players on the same table in one step
Features voice input for data entry
Video displayed on computer screen for ease of use
Flexible rules
Creates a permanent record of a player’s performance"
inventor and sold it for a few years under Bloodhound.
Then they sold it back to the inventor and he sells
it now as BJ Survey again. My question is, if its so
great a product, why didn't Shufflemaster keep it.
You don't sell something thats a moneymaker.
Quote: EvenBobShufflemaster bought BJ Survey from the original
inventor and sold it for a few years under Bloodhound.
Then they sold it back to the inventor and he sells
it now as BJ Survey again. My question is, if its so
great a product, why didn't Shufflemaster keep it.
You don't sell something thats a moneymaker.
There are many flaws with Bjsurvey,and it can easily be defeated by a knowledgeable player.
Over the past few years, by far the largest amount of AP money won has been related to Baccarat, not BJ. The money that has been won by BJ APs can largely be attributed to sort play count, ace tracking, and hole carding.
Quote: KeyserI'm always amused by the number of people that mistakenly belief that the AP play is mainly about BJ card counters. In reality, that was true several years back, but not these days -not even close.
Over the past few years, by far the largest amount of AP money won has been related to Baccarat, not BJ. The money that has been won by BJ APs can largely be attributed to sort play count, ace tracking, and hole carding.
I never said counting was where the money was at,just mentioning one of the possible reasons that shufflemaster unloaded Bj Survey as more casinos are realizing they don`t need that product.
Quote: KeyserI'm always amused by the number of people that mistakenly belief that the AP play is mainly about BJ card counters.
There's a whole subculture out there now.
They learned a lot from Beat the Dealer.
If you have something, keep it to yourself.
Who knows how long BJ could have been
kept under wraps if the book hadn't come
out.
Doyle Brunson's Super System: A Course in Power Poker
When this was first published in the seventies it caused a sensation. Immediately recognized as the most ambitious poker book ever written, it nonetheless was received with irritation by some professionals because it was believed that Doyle "Texas Dolly" Brunson and his collaborators gave away too much, thereby allowing the amateurs to catch up, thereby cutting into the professional player's take.
Quote: buzzpaffBob, Doyle Brunson regretted letting his ego write this book
Computers and Brunson's book are responsible for
the poker mania we see today. Brunson has said,
before the book, he never lost. Never lost a session,
not never lost a hand. He had to leave Texas because
nobody would let him play anywhere, so he moved
to Vegas where he was unknown. Smart guy, got
a degree in business way back in the early 50's, when
nobody he knew was going to college.
Quote: KeyserOver the past few years, by far the largest amount of AP money won has been related to Baccarat, not BJ.
Okay nobody else has, so I'll bite: AP Baccarat? Counting cards? Marking cards? Hole? carding?
