Blackjack table dealt joker on a non joker table and voided the deck
I wonder what feat of incompetence allowed them to get a Pai Gow deck into the BJ shoe. Were there 6 jokers in the shoe? I'd think the most likely scenario would have them using 6 pai gow decks by accident (the boxes look different than the cards for BJ, so it'd be REALLY hard to only have one bad deck with one Joker in the 6 deck shoe).
Quote: rdw4potusI wonder what feat of incompetence allowed them to get a Pai Gow deck into the BJ shoe. Were there 6 jokers in the shoe? I'd think the most likely scenario would have them using 6 pai gow decks by accident (the boxes look different than the cards for BJ, so it'd be REALLY hard to only have one bad deck with one Joker in the 6 deck shoe).
Furthermore, the joker would have absolutely no bearing on the composition of the cards in the deck, unless you are a card counter who can count exactly how many cards have been dealt, and even then, the cut card would bury that effect. I don't play in California, and I know rules are different there, so if there's something I'm not aware of, please enlighten me.
The fact you are getting ANY money back is more than generous from the casino. I can understand closing the table or changing the decks after the card came out, but that would have no bearing on the cards that came before that. It would be just as easy to burn the joker and give out the next card, unless there is a CA rule about jokers in a shoe game that I'm not aware of.
I wouldn't try to milk this for any more than what you have. They could feel like it's fraud-ish, and rescind the entire offer altogether.
Quote: TiltpoulFurthermore, the joker would have absolutely no bearing on the composition of the cards in the deck, unless you are a card counter who can count exactly how many cards have been dealt, and even then, the cut card would bury that effect. I don't play in California, and I know rules are different there, so if there's something I'm not aware of, please enlighten me.
There's one casino - I don't remember which one, maybe it's even Hollywood - that plays with jokers. They're wild, and automatically bring any hand up to 21. It's one of those crazy California rules.
Please explain how the joker caused you to lose?
Quote: HunterhillI think you have no case at all and should be happy to get your $235 returned. The joker had no effect on your play.
Please explain how the joker caused you to lose?
Theoretically the deck could have been messed up in other ways as well. It is true that a normal shoe with just an added joker would not change the house edge in blackjack at all, but it smacks of unprofessionalism, and would definitely make me feel uncomfortable about the remaining composition of the shoe. Did the joker accidentally replace a 10 or ace? Are there other random (or not random) denominations missing? I think it's fair to ask for your money back on that shoe, although I doubt many casinos would every go so far as this one in actually going through with a reimbursement.
To the OP, you need to be more clear. Are you asserting that on those 16 hands you believe you lost over $1000, and the operations manager claims you only lost $235? That's a pretty big difference. If he's offering to run down the video with you, you should be able to settle it. But you're more likely to annoy them by causing a ruckus and possibly cause them to rescind the offer entirely. Take the money, he's probably right and you're probably just lumping in other losses from that night due to faulty memory. Sorry if that sounds harsh.
Maybe if you were a regular patron who gave good action every visit, I might do something.
But it would totally depend on how much you are worth to the house. If you had won $1600 and I asked for it back because the joker was present, would you cough up?
If your not willing to give it back if you had won, you have double standards. Its either a fair cop, or its not. You cant have your cake and eat it.
Quote: wbuballa23what is everyone talking about when they say how did the joker mess up the play is that a serious question. If one card is out of place in the deck then it can be the difference between winning & losing. Who knows I could've lost all my money because of the joker or I could have one a lot of money because of it but it still messed up how the cards come out. If it didn't mess up the deck why would they void it. Voided a deck means that something is wrong rarely does anybody ever see an entire deck get voided.
Yes the joker changed the order of the cards after the point it was discovered, but all previous action stands. For what its worth, the joker could of gone in your favour as much as it might not of gone in your favour, therefore it has zero effect.
Quote: wbuballa23Ok so this past friday I was playing blackjack at Hollywood Park Casino in Los Angeles, CA. On a particular shoe a joker came out that was not suppose to and the entire deck was voided. On that deck I lost a $1000 and I was not compensated anything that night because the operations manager was not working and I was told there was nothing they could do about it. So I did the smart thing and filed a complaint with the casino. Today I got a call back and the operations manager told me that he was willing to reimburse me $235 because he reviewed the tape and it showed that I had lost $235 during the duration that the 16 hands were dealt before the joker accidentally came out. He did acknowledge that it was the casinos fault and felt that the $235 that I lost was a fair compensation. That night i went on to lose a total of $1600 and I was extremely upset about them not reimbursing me any money for what had happened. I am new to this forum any help would be greatly appreciated... THANKS!!!!
So the shoe had a joker in it -- so what? Jokers don't mean anything in blackjack, so if it had come up as part of a hand, it wouldn't have mattered (just replace it with the next card).
You say you lost $235 in 16 hands before the joker appeared. Yet you lost $1000 on the whole shoe. That means you *kept playing* after the joker came out, despite the assertion that the "deck was voided". Which was it -- did you lose $235 on that shoe, or $1000? Did you keep playing in that shoe after the joker came out? If so, whose fault is that?
of the card, returned to me. Not everyone can just open a casino and I would expect part of that right guarantees me a game with
proper decks of cards !
IMO, I say mistake number 1.Quote: wbuballa23Ok so this past friday I was playing blackjack at Hollywood Park Casino in Los Angeles, CA.
But better than playing at a CA Indian casino.
Do the shoes use pre-shuffled cards?Quote: wbuballa23On a particular shoe a joker came out that was not suppose to and the entire deck was voided.
IF not...
I say the pit boss missed the joker when the new cards were placed onto the table the first time. Assuming multiple decks were placed on the table to be shuffled.
Then the Dealer FAILED to catch that joker.
This shows bad on the casino.
I say sue the Dealer, the pit boss and the casino. I am sure you can find a CA lawyer to take the case. Times are tuff.
I refuse to play at ANY CA casino so I do not know.
Plus, many gangs follow players out of those casinos to homes that they have seen win money at a casino to rob them.
Most CA casinos are in bad areas to begin with.
Quote: 7crapsI say sue the Dealer, the pit boss and the casino. I am sure you can find a CA lawyer to take the case. Times are tuff.
That's borderline delusional. What exactly do you expect to sue them for? What do you hope to accomplish?
Quote: buzzpaffI do not care if it was a joker, the old maid, or an uno card,. I would want any money I lost on that shoe, prior to the discovery
of the card, returned to me. Not everyone can just open a casino and I would expect part of that right guarantees me a game with
proper decks of cards !
Sure, no doubt. But do you keep playing at that table after the Uno card comes out? What about elsewhere in the casino?
Usually cards are fanned out and checked front and back, this appears to be a serious breech of protocol, to say the least.
I would expect all the cards in that shoe to be counted down and verified by management and taken out of play.
And spread new decks before I would bet another penny.
Unless the shoes come from a manufacture that are already shuffled, like some Baccarat shoes,Quote: buzzpaff
Usually cards are fanned out and checked front and back, this appears to be a serious breech of protocol, to say the least.
I would expect all the cards in that shoe to be counted down and verified by management and taken out of play.
And spread new decks before I would bet another penny.
Yes, buzzpaff, this breaks a casino's written policy and procedure for 21 supervisors and dealers.
But was it just an honest mistake? They do happen? (Maybe the shoe was missing 20-10 value cards. Did any one count the cards)
Who cares?
Those who make any mistake must pay.
But this is CA casinos -card cub-whatever.
They are above any God or any CA law.
I still say sue.
There were written procedures broken and any good CA lawyer can find $$$ in that.
The OP said it was a shoe game, correct, and 16 hands dealt before the joker.
I will still want my $235 returned. Not saying I have a legal right, but that's what I would settle for.
Even take the casino's word on that number, for what it's worth.
If they seem to be fair, I would take their word for it.
And they'd make the $235 back on my future action and goodwill alone !
Not even.Quote: P90That's borderline delusional. What exactly do you expect to sue them for? What do you hope to accomplish?
Sharks can smell blood from miles away. There are many sharks in CA.
The casino will pay up.
Bad casino news spreads faster than wild fires in California and any CA casino would be a *fool* to NOT pay what the players wanted to get.
Bad publicity will hurt a CA casinos bottom line.
They do not want that.
They should just pay everyone at least $5000 and offer them a free drink to boot just to go away.
That shows class
NO CA casino has ANY class, period.
just my opinion.
Then, you should be able to count all the cards in play and make sure the deck is fair. If it was fair, you deserve no compensation. If it wasn't fair and the joker replaced any card, then you should get refunded all of the money you played that night.
back of pool hall in which all the players were winners. And NO there was no Bad beat Jackpot and Yes It was a raked game and had been gone on for over 2 hours.
A lawsuit is a terrible idea; actually on my first read of that, I thought it was a joke. Now that I see the response, good luck with that.
Take the $235 graciously. I'd also suggest you may consider going to GA, as you feel all your losses for that night are dependent on a card that had nothing to do with the blackjack game. I agree there is an integrity issue on part of the casino, but if you're hurting that much for the money, where there just isn't a logical argument, then maybe gambling isn't for you.
Quote: 7crapsThey should just pay everyone at least $5000 and offer them a free drink to boot just to go away.
People and their sense of entitlement...
Why $5,000 and not $50,000? Or maybe 5% of the casino's shares to each player who was dealt from the affected deck?
Quote: FinsRuleDid you get the joker on your hand? I think if you get a joker on your hand in blackjack you should win that hand automatically.
That's exactly how it works in the CA card rooms where there really are jokers in the shoe. Well, I guess not quite - there, the joker makes the player beat any other 21 that doesn't also include a joker. So, my 6+5+* would tie the dealer's 3+3+2+8+*, but I'd beat 3+3+2+8+5.
Thanks for that voice of reason.Quote: P90People and their sense of entitlement...
Why $5,000 and not $50,000? Or maybe 5% of the casino's shares to each player who was dealt from the affected deck?
I think the $235 should be acceptable.
I'm actually quite shocked that they are inviting you to watch the tape, but don't expect the refund to change.
Mark
Quote: 7crapsThey should just pay everyone at least $5000 and offer them a free drink to boot just to go away.
People and their reading comprehension.Quote: P90People and their sense of entitlement...
Why $5,000 and not $50,000? Or maybe 5% of the casino's shares to each player who was dealt from the affected deck?
What does *at least $5,000* mean?
Oh, I see only $5,000.
I agree with you on the $50,000 or even higher.
Maybe 7 players max at the CA casino BJ table.
Total payoff $350,000 AND FREE DRINKS!
That is easily made up on a weekend by changing the slot payouts and removing some 10s from all 6 deck shoes.
NO one would ever know except the CA casino.
(anyone get the message I do not care one bit for any CA casinos, just my opinion)
Easy money for any CA casino.
Work at a CA casino for a while and see what gang you end up belonging to.Quote: marksolbergWow, I'm surprised at some of the responses.
Mark
Just my opinion.
Shoot me if you do not like it.
Way too much crap that goes on in ALL CA casinos. They know they can not get caught!
The reality is that mistakes happen.
We all make them.
I think a very reasonable thing for
the casino to do would be to ask
the players ON THAT HAND only
if they wanted to continue to
play or to void the hand.
That gives the player a big
advantage, knowing what they
were dealt and what the dealer
has for an upcard.
I've seen other misdeals sorted
out that way. It is a good
gesture by the casinio, and
would have been more than
fair in my mind.
Wbuballa23, Go after your money! If your $235 gets rescinded; send me a PM and I will split the bill with you.
I am serious about us creating a "Gambler's Union", if we stick together...we can make changes..starting with eliminating 6:5 Blackjack!
the casino to do would be to ask
the players ON THAT HAND only
if they wanted to continue to
play or to void the hand. "
I can not deal a BJ game in my home without risking arrest. Along with the right to deal that game comes the responsibility
to provide me with the proper number of cards. I think the $235 refund is the thing to do. And so does the casino.
Yes.Quote: JohnnyQSeriously ?
The reality is that mistakes happen.
We all make them.
These type of "mistakes" happen all the time at "that" casino mentioned by the OP.
I used to play there also. No more.
Too many bad stories from too many good people, and from people I trust more than a casino supervisor.
Those CA casinos can get away with anything in the LA area.
Too many people to take the place of the people they rip off.
yep, just saying
Quote: CrapsForever...we can make changes..starting with eliminating 6:5 Blackjack!
file this under Q for Quixote...
but i agree it should be banned everywhere as it is in PA
Sadly it's not if PA will have 6/6 BJ, just when !
Quote: wbuballa23@tiltpoul read my post before making dumb statements.. I have lost 15,000-$18,000 its not about the $235 its the principle... the casino made a mistake and they should reimburse me that is all I am saying... THEY MADE A MISTAKE NOT ME..... they know they messed up because I just got a call from the operations manager again and they are doing a hand by hand review of the 16 hands... @tiltpoul I did not keep playing after the joker was dealt because the deck was voided meaning that the entire deck was taken out... I stopped playing blackjack after that and I was around $1000 in the hole then I lost an additional $600 playing poker which of course I am perfectly ok with losing...
First of all, I HAVE read your posts... this is your SECOND DAY as a new member, and while I'm sorry for the mix up on your end, your arguments don't really to seem to hold a lot of weight.
Second, please show me an expert gambling writer who would argue that the order of the cards was affected by a joker being in the mix of the cards. THIS IS YOUR ARGUMENT!!!
Quote: wbuballa23what is everyone talking about when they say how did the joker mess up the play is that a serious question. If one card is out of place in the deck then it can be the difference between winning & losing. Who knows I could've lost all my money because of the joker or I could have one a lot of money because of it but it still messed up how the cards come out. If it didn't mess up the deck why would they void it. Voided a deck means that something is wrong rarely does anybody ever see an entire deck get voided.
You just said that the joker is what made the deck out of order... please, get ONE gambling expert (and not some betting system guy) to back you up on YOUR STATEMENT, and I will kindly retract everything I said. The joker had no bearing on the cards in play!!!
NOW, if you want to say that it could be something fishy about the deck (meaning more small cards that would benefit the house), then I won't argue with THAT point. However, you're attacking a lot of people on here who are pretty much in agreement with what I have said about the joker's INFLUENCE on the deck.
If you want to pursue a lawsuit, go ahead man! You WILL NOT get the $235 or $1000. You WILL pay a lot in attorney fees, and the best case scenario would be an out of court settlement because the deck was flawed (meaning there WERE too many 2s or 3s). The JOKER will have no bearing in a court of law, because it does not play in the game. The video cameras should have the footage when they set the table up. If the shoe was okay in every other sense, it seems highly unlikely there will be a judgment in your favor...
THEN, you will definitely be blacklisted from that casino, though others have said they will not go there, so probably not a bad thing for you anyways. You're also likely to be blacklisted from other casinos as well, since a court case will be on public record, and casinos have the right to refuse service.
Take the $235. If they are willing to work with you for more, then great...
What about if the joker had been a porn slapper card instead?
I wouldnt pay you a penny. Take your $235 and move along.
As others have said, if this was an extra card, or a missing ace etc. Then we have a whole different ball game. Look at the rules for texas holdem.
Quote: WSOP RULESBoxed cards (those which are found face up in the deck) or jokers that are not to be a part of the game are discarded as if they are nonexistent. The deal will continue with the next card in the deck, unless the card has already been dealt and is mixed in with a player’s hand. Should that happen, the face-up card would be re-dealt at the end of the deal for that round.
I think a similar rule should apply here. You just think you deserve something, and thats just greed.
Quote: wbuballa23its not about the $235 its the principle... the casino made a mistake and they should reimburse me that is all I am saying... THEY MADE A MISTAKE NOT ME.....
We will all agree with you that they made a mistake. The question to be asked is what damages did you suffer because of the mistake. As others have stated, unless there was something else wrong with the deck, there are no damages. A court will award you money to compensate you for the damages you sufferred. Since there were no damages you would get SQUAT. The casino, as an act of good customer relations, offerred you a VERY fair deal. TAKE IT AND MOVE ON!!!!!
They probably were willing to give you the $235 because they saw your play and noticed you are the type of player that will lose $15,000 - $18,000.....
This the same situation. The joker is meaningless in traditional blackjack; the proper thing to do would have been to burn the card and keep dealing. Its placement did not affect the order of the cards dealt prior to its discovery, nor does it affect the order of the cards dealt after its discovery.
The fact that the casino offered you $235 was a very generous gesture, especially considering that it is $235 more than what you are entitled to.
For the record, I was on a Riverboat casino in February where a dealer (before gaming started) during the pre-game shuffle (Face-up) noticed that there were two additional 4's and was missing two 8's in one of the decks he was about to start shuffling...he called the Pit Boss over....somehow....the cards got mixed up with another deck of cards...because the next deck he removes from the plastic package of decks had the exact opposite....two additional 8's and was missing two 4's. I am not accusing them of cheating because I have never heard a single complaint about their Blackjack game and the reaction by the Pitboss/Dealers seemed genuinely shocked.
Hindsight is 20/20 but I think the ONLY course of action for the California Casino we are discussing was to put all the cards FACE-UP on the table after the Joker appeared in front of the customers to verify if there were any cards missing/added/replaced. You saw a Joker; we'll never know what else was missing or added. If you were a counter and noticed a lot of cards missing/added and pointed it out; you would probably be labeled a "counter" and be banned from playing there. Go after your money and don't EVER play Blackjack there again!
*Regarding Texas Hold'em Poker and extra cards in the Deck....I have a friend who plays Hold'em on a daily basis at a Poker Room in Daytona, FL. During a game last month 3 players had Pocket Aces, Pocket Kings, Pocket Kings..respectively; ..on "showdown" a 5th King appeared on the River! The hand was voided and all money in the pot was returned solely for that hand. Nothing could be done regarding earlier hands but people were very upset!
Quote: CrapsForeverI keep reading people say "if there was something else wrong with the Deck, another card (Ace?) missing, you'd have a more valid claim to get all your money back" How exactly was the OP going to prove there was something else wrong with the Deck? How do we know what else was wrong with the Deck when all the cards were not shown?
Hindsight is 20/20 but I think the ONLY course of action was for the Casino to put all the cards FACE-UP on the table after the Joker appeared in front of the customers to verify if there were any cards missing/added/replaced. You saw a Joker; we'll never know what else was missing or added. If you were a counter and noticed a lot of cards missing/added and pointed it out; you would probably be labeled a "counter" and be banned from playing there. Go after your money and don't EVER play Blackjack there again!
Regarding Texas Hold'em Poker and extra cards in the Deck....I have a friend who plays Hold'em on a daily basis at a Poker Room in Daytona, FL. During a game last month 3 players had Pocket Aces, Pocket Kings, Pocket Kings..respectively; ..on "showdown" a 5th King appeared on the River! The hand was voided and all money in the pot was returned solely for that hand. Nothing could be done regarding earlier hands but people were very upset!
But we aren't talking about an extra King, we are talking about a meaningless card within the scope of blackjack. If there is something else wrong with the shoe, that's a different matter. If the casino refuses to show the cards to the players and camera, players should be smart enough to walk away - not continue playing and then cry foul after losing their bankroll. It sounds like the OP was trying to freeroll the casino: if he won after the joker incident, he would have colored up and walked away; since he lost, he filed a complaint in an attempt to get his money back.
Quote: JBBut we aren't talking about an extra King (which would benefit the blackjack player anyway), we are talking about a meaningless card within the scope of blackjack. If there is something else wrong with the shoe, that's a different matter. If the casino refuses to show the cards to the players and camera, players should be smart enough to walk away - not continue playing and then cry foul after losing their bankroll. It sounds like the OP was trying to freeroll the casino: if he won after the joker incident, he would have colored up and walked away; since he lost, he filed a complaint in an attempt to get his money back.
I think it's very unfair for any of us to state that the "OP was trying to freeroll the casino", he's standing up for himself. When I noticed funny stuff going on at my local casino's blackjack game (Less 10's in the Deck)....I simply left and never played Blackjack there again and advised every single person I knew to never play there.
In hindsight; I should have caused a major ruckus...not to get my money back but to bring more publicity to the issue because too many people were complaining about funny stuff happening at this Casino and other Seminole properties. It's not a case of being a "sore loser", I have been losing in Blackjack at an alarming rate for 12 years in Casinos all over the world....I have never complained...not even once; I just deem it as having Bad Luck in that particular game. I know funny stuff when I see it...if the Seminole Casino offered me all my money back if I would keep quiet...I would REFUSE it and still bring publicity to the issue. In my opinion, a Casino that cheats its patrons is the lowest of the low; they already have all the advantages...house odds, conditions, etc.
Some people would take the money and move on and keep quiet. I would not; my integrity, morals and principles can never be bought!
Quote: CrapsForeverI think it's very unfair for any of us to state that the "OP was trying to freeroll the casino", he's standing up for himself. When I noticed funny stuff going on at my local casino's blackjack game (Less 10's in the Deck)....I simply left and never played Blackjack there again and advised every single person I knew to never play there.
In hindsight; I should have caused a major ruckus...not to get my money back but to bring more publicity to the issue because too many people were complaining about funny stuff happening at this Casino and other Seminole properties. It's not a case of being a "sore loser", I have been losing in Blackjack at an alarming rate for 12 years in Casinos all over the world....I have never complained...not even once; I just deem it as having Bad Luck in that particular game. I know funny stuff when I see it...if the Seminole Casino offered me all my money back if I would keep quiet...I would REFUSE it and still bring publicity to the issue. In my opinion, a Casino that cheats its patrons is the lowest of the low; they already have all the advantages...house odds, conditions, etc.
Some people would take the money and move on and keep quiet. I would not; my integrity, morals and principles can never be bought!
Let's be realistic here. If the OP suspected that something crooked was going on - that is, something other than a meaningless card was accidentally inserted into the shoe - then why keep playing unless he was trying to have it both ways?
If a casino is intentionally using a crooked deck/shoe, shame on them. I think it should be publicized nationally and I would hope that their business suffers drastically as a result. But unless I missed it, I didn't see any evidence of cheating by the casinos in either your case or the OP's.
