Thread Rating:

Poll

5 votes (18.51%)
13 votes (48.14%)
9 votes (33.33%)

27 members have voted

TomG
TomG
Joined: Sep 26, 2010
  • Threads: 13
  • Posts: 2108
July 14th, 2016 at 6:55:18 PM permalink
Quote: Paigowdan

If the floorman says, "You're fine with us, play and stay as long as you want. Here's your comp, and nice seeing you again."
You're good.

versus:
"Look, buddy, you're done for the night. If you come back again, you'll be trespassed and in the book."
You're not good.



That's how pretty much everyone sees it. The issue is that that even for players who are able to overcome the house edge, the latter statement is heard very rarely, while the former is said or implied the vast majority of the time
Paigowdan
Paigowdan
Joined: Apr 28, 2010
  • Threads: 115
  • Posts: 5692
July 14th, 2016 at 7:14:05 PM permalink
Quote: TomG

That's how pretty much everyone sees it. The issue is that that even for players who are able to overcome the house edge, the latter statement is heard very rarely, while the former is said or implied the vast majority of the time


Hopefully that would be the case.
Beware of all enterprises that require new clothes - Henry David Thoreau. Like Dealers' uniforms - Dan.
SM777
SM777
Joined: Apr 8, 2016
  • Threads: 6
  • Posts: 762
July 14th, 2016 at 8:20:02 PM permalink
What an awful argument taking place here.
gordonm888
gordonm888
Joined: Feb 18, 2015
  • Threads: 43
  • Posts: 2731
July 14th, 2016 at 9:24:11 PM permalink
Well, this thread is starting to look like another 40-page Paigowdan argument about the morality of card counting. Sigh.

As the OP, I really wanted this to be about the WOV trolls who swarm onto WOV threads like flies on manure, mindlessly defend the casinos as having no incentive to cheat their customers and who try to shout down anyone who says anything negative about the gaming industry. That wasn't Paigowdan.

But this is WOV - anyone can start a thread but there's no telling where it may go.
So many better men, a few of them friends, are dead. And a thousand thousand slimy things live on, and so do I.
Paigowdan
Paigowdan
Joined: Apr 28, 2010
  • Threads: 115
  • Posts: 5692
July 14th, 2016 at 10:20:52 PM permalink
Quote: gordonm888

Well, this thread is starting to look like another 40-page Paigowdan argument about the morality of card counting. Sigh.


I don't think so. The majority of posts are not mine.
I didn't criticize the morality of card counting here that much, as much as say it is legal, that it can be counter-productive, and that some arguments defending it as a valid casino activity aren't really that strong, particularly if they can throw you out for it.

Quote: gordon888

As the OP, I really wanted this to be about the WOV trolls who swarm onto WOV threads like flies on manure, mindlessly defend the casinos as having no incentive to cheat their customers and who try to shout down anyone who says anything negative about the gaming industry. That wasn't Paigowdan.


As far as I can tell, little bad was mentioned about the gaming industry, and neither did I defend it. I said if they like your play, you're good, and if they don't, you're backed off. No biggie.
Not much bad was said about the gaming industry, there were regular members and not trolls, nor were there personal attacks or name callings on any members. This is good.
Arguments were also made that people were not getting paid to hang around here, which is true. Neither of these are shout downs, they're opinions expressed.

To start a thinly disguised thread of "no industry shills"/"is the industry paying people to falsify card counting here?" in itself hints of anti-industry baiting from post #1. That wasn't questioned until here. What if a thread were entitled "No AP shills"/"are people getting paid to plug AP play here?" That would get noticed and questioned in a second. Eyebrows would be raised and pearls would drop.

How can someone who lives on - and feeds off of - gambling halls and from gaming, criticize the source of their passion, their affectation?
What exactly is the argument here, seriously? Something like "I make my living using AP maneuvers to take money from gambling halls because I hereby declare these businesses to be evil entities, to rationalize the AP position that I cling to."

People who work as High School principals, musicians, and marketing execs who play cards and throw dice after dinner and who are fine with that and have no problems with it may be considered ignorant ploppies for not being sophisticated AP players "in the know." There is a sense of that. If you're not playing with a manufactured edge over the casino, especially if it is somewhat clandestine or disallowed, then you're a ignorant pedestrian, not a sophisticated elite in the know. It's a bit chauvinistic. I swear I get a sense of that position at times. I gamble with an edge. It's called a small house edge and it doesn't bother me being in place.

Quote: gor5don888

But this is WOV - anyone can start a thread but there's no telling where it may go.

Beware of all enterprises that require new clothes - Henry David Thoreau. Like Dealers' uniforms - Dan.
TwoFeathersATL
TwoFeathersATL
Joined: May 22, 2013
  • Threads: 37
  • Posts: 3616
July 15th, 2016 at 4:30:33 AM permalink
OK Gordo, I have to ask.
Were you paid for generating another 7 pages of thread here ;-?
Youuuuuu MIGHT be a 'rascal' if.......(nevermind ;-)...2F
darkoz
darkoz
Joined: Dec 22, 2009
  • Threads: 243
  • Posts: 7475
July 15th, 2016 at 6:31:43 AM permalink
Quote: Paigowdan

I don't think so. The majority of posts are not mine.
I didn't criticize the morality of card counting here that much, as much as say it is legal, that it can be counter-productive, and that some arguments defending it as a valid casino activity aren't really that strong, particularly if they can throw you out for it.


As far as I can tell, little bad was mentioned about the gaming industry, and neither did I defend it. I said if they like your play, you're good, and if they don't, you're backed off. No biggie.
Not much bad was said about the gaming industry, there were regular members and not trolls, nor were there personal attacks or name callings on any members. This is good.
Arguments were also made that people were not getting paid to hang around here, which is true. Neither of these are shout downs, they're opinions expressed.

To start a thinly disguised thread of "no industry shills"/"is the industry paying people to falsify card counting here?" in itself hints of anti-industry baiting from post #1. That wasn't questioned until here. What if a thread were entitled "No AP shills"/"are people getting paid to plug AP play here?" That would get noticed and questioned in a second. Eyebrows would be raised and pearls would drop.

How can someone who lives on - and feeds off of - gambling halls and from gaming, criticize the source of their passion, their affectation?
What exactly is the argument here, seriously? Something like "I make my living using AP maneuvers to take money from gambling halls because I hereby declare these businesses to be evil entities, to rationalize the AP position that I cling to."

People who work as High School principals, musicians, and marketing execs who play cards and throw dice after dinner and who are fine with that and have no problems with it may be considered ignorant ploppies for not being sophisticated AP players "in the know." There is a sense of that. If you're not playing with a manufactured edge over the casino, especially if it is somewhat clandestine or disallowed, then you're a ignorant pedestrian, not a sophisticated elite in the know. It's a bit chauvinistic. I swear I get a sense of that position at times. I gamble with an edge. It's called a small house edge and it doesn't bother me being in place.



The reason we look down on Ploppies and consider the casinos evil is because we have all witnessed the tricks of their trade to get people to lose their money. Yes, they have a choice in the same sense alcoholics do. I have witnessed the stupidest bets and gambling practices.

And therein lies the AP anger towards casinos. They're apparent modus operandi is if you gamble stupid they are fine with it but soon as you gamble smart enough to beat them, that is what is disallowed. Smart gambling, not allowed. Stupid gambling, perfectly acceptable.

And I know you are very smart and may feel you are playing smart by only bucking small house edges compared to big ones. You feel you are paying admission. But AP's feel they are trying to win and if our brains are too smart for the casinos, that IS a badge of honor.

And I take great pride in beating them. I enjoy the money but if you offered me an office job for the same pay, I would stick with the gambling, this is too much fun (unless the office job was in a major Hollywood studio, still have my film making dreams :)
For Whom the bus tolls; The bus tolls for thee
Paigowdan
Paigowdan
Joined: Apr 28, 2010
  • Threads: 115
  • Posts: 5692
July 15th, 2016 at 9:05:30 AM permalink
Quote: darkoz

The reason we look down on Ploppies and consider the casinos evil is because we have all witnessed the tricks of their trade to get people to lose their money. Yes, they have a choice in the same sense alcoholics do. I have witnessed the stupidest bets and gambling practices.


Darkoz, thoughtful, explicit answer/good analogy: the same sense that alcoholics do.
I once heard a man from the group A.A. point out a Scotch advertisement, I forget if it were Chivas Regal or Johnny Walker, what have you: he said "look at the photo of the rocks glass of scotch here, particularly the ice cubes in the scotch; the photographer coated the cubes with honey to make them look as if you can actually see them melting into the scotch, with its overhead light on the glass, etc., the drink was engineered to look absolutely irresistible, alluring..... This is war for me, I tell ya."
He was talking about the tricks of the trade to get people to drink, - a print ad in Esquire magazine as diabolical, evil. The war he described was either non-existent or was made from his own personal but understandable machinations, I felt. It was just a photo of a glass of booze, arguably a very good one. I mean, if he were telling me that he doesn’t want to drink, or more so, must not drink, I was thinking, do something more sober than stare at and analyze a booze ad.
I’m taking a month off from dice and UTH because I have three games and a book on gaming to finish. My wife pointed out that I lost – ignored - $400 in free bets from Stations over the month, and I thought “no loss.” I know the free bets can be looked at as if they were hooks for a fish’s mouth. But I viewed them as gifts to decline because I’m busy, dammit. I’ll gamble later if I want to. If I use a free bet voucher or a steakhouse comp, I’m not a ploppie, I’m appreciating a gratuity.
As far as I’m concerned there’s no tricks in print ads, or free bet vouchers/credits, or in casino steakhouse promo’s, or Buffet two-for-ones, what have you. There comes a point where people are responsible for their behavior without the excuse, “the DEVIL made me do it.”
The tricks or “evil” come into the picture when you misrepresent yourself to a business, breach their property rules on game play and behavior, in order to try to scam them in some way for personal gain cash. And they may respond in some fashion that you cannot do that if you wish to play or be here. I don’t consider this gambling and certainly not smart gambling.

Quote: darkoz

And therein lies the AP anger towards casinos. They're apparent modus operandi is if you gamble stupid they are fine with it but soon as you gamble smart enough to beat them, that is what is disallowed. Smart gambling, not allowed. Stupid gambling, perfectly acceptable.


A value judgment/”label alert” here, IMO:
What I think is right and do in a gambling hall, regardless of what the house thinks = smart gambling.
What I don’t do/play by their rules = Stupid gambling.
I do think this is labeling.
I find honor in not beating the system.

Quote: darkoz

And I know you are very smart and may feel you are playing smart by only bucking small house edges compared to big ones. You feel you are paying admission. But AP's feel they are trying to win and if our brains are too smart for the casinos, that IS a badge of honor.


The way I look at it is that I am not trying to win “against the casino.”
I am trying to win against the dice rolls and the card results without gaffing the odds.
I’m up against variance, not against the casino or its people.
Beware of all enterprises that require new clothes - Henry David Thoreau. Like Dealers' uniforms - Dan.
AxelWolf
AxelWolf
Joined: Oct 10, 2012
  • Threads: 147
  • Posts: 18629
July 15th, 2016 at 12:59:13 PM permalink
Quote: Paigowdan

You can't take the casino out of AP play - when it is done in and against the casino. That's the issue.

Look, to cut through the semantics and the problems with AP:

If the floorman says, "You're fine with us, play and stay as long as you want. Here's your comp, and nice seeing you again."
You're good.

versus:
"Look, buddy, you're done for the night. If you come back again, you'll be trespassed and in the book."
You're not good.

The way I see it, you're either on borrowed time or out of time if you AP the casinos.

My argument is that you claim AP isn't gambling. That's BS because AP's are gambling in most cases. If you are correct then Tell Bob Dancer and all the the book writers and everyone else to change the names of their books, shows etc etc and to leave out the word gambling and stop lying to everyone. GAMBLING with an edge.
♪♪Now you swear and kick and beg us That you're not a gamblin' man Then you find you're back in Vegas With a handle in your hand♪♪ Your black cards can make you money So you hide them when you're able In the land of casinos and money You must put them on the table♪♪ You go back Jack do it again roulette wheels turinin' 'round and 'round♪♪ You go back Jack do it again♪♪
Paigowdan
Paigowdan
Joined: Apr 28, 2010
  • Threads: 115
  • Posts: 5692
July 15th, 2016 at 1:23:41 PM permalink
Quote: AxelWolf

My argument is that you claim AP isn't gambling. That's BS because AP's are gambling in most cases.


I wouldn't confuse "gambling" with "other casino activity."

Quote: AxelWolf

If you are correct then Tell Bob Dancer and all the the book writers and everyone else to change the names of their books, shows etc etc and to leave out the word gambling and stop lying to everyone. GAMBLING with an edge.


I'm not going to do anything of the sort. People can write their books, I'm not their editor and I am disinterested in 'em.
Beware of all enterprises that require new clothes - Henry David Thoreau. Like Dealers' uniforms - Dan.

  • Jump to: