Here We Go Again
There were options other than going John Cena on her. Backup could have been called, including a female officer. The situation could have been dealt with at the end of class. The victim's parents could have been called to pick her up. They could have waited until the end of the day and suspended her then.
Hindsight is 50/50 for me sitting at my computer but it shouldn't have been for a trained school officer. He should have known the protocols which, I think most agree, do not include violent assault.
Quote: petroglyphWhat other country would this happen in?
There are police presences in schools in many other countries. In the case of the student refusing to leave the class, violence would not be a viable alternative. The *only* way that cops are allowed to touch students here in Canada is if they are arresting someone for a crime. And police presence in schools in Canada is limited to problem schools.
The kid is not threatening anyone. She is only being moderately disruptive. As if we value every minute of every class of every day as if learning is all of a sudden a sacred institution. Students disrupt class everywhere all of the time. Heaven forbid that the resource officer spends 3-5 minutes of a "sacred" classroom's time peacefully defusing a conflict instead of hours of wasted time spent teaching kids useless information, watching movies, and killing time. Maybe that interaction between resource official and student might teach the students a positive lesson in civics or in positive public relations.
She may be breaking school disciplinary code. Big whoop. She refused to leave. Big whoop. The worst case scenario is that the teacher completes the class with the kid talking and the kid gets suspended with the foster parents picking up the kid. Big whoop.
Instead, we have an international news story because the cop did something unthinkable that doesn't happen anywhere else with cell phones rolling.
Quote: 1BBHe should have known the protocols which, I think most agree, do not include violent assault.
What percentage of arrests of defiant 'resisters' would you say are a 'violent assault'? If the protocol included physical removal, then the level of force used/needed is a continuum, and can't be determined exactly IN ADVANCE of the actual situation. If the protocol required calling for extra help before removal, or no physical removal unless the girl was threatening harm to others, or something else we are not aware of yet, then I could see the officer being terminated.
I don't think we have any posters who are employed as peace officers; I'd love to hear their take...
Quote:The principal's office isn't where she belonged at this point, it's jail!
You want to fund this girl in jail for talking on a cell phone during class? Is that the preferred punishment these days for talking on a cell phone in class, incarceration? What criminal ordinance is being broken here?
Let's just go down the slippery slope and throw kids in jail for not completing their homework, getting an "F" on an assignment, copying materials without quoting the source, failing to sing the national anthem in key, showing up 3 minutes late for a class, not finishing their lunch, taking too long in the bathroom, or not cheering for the basketball team.
I'm being ridiculous of course. But if you are suggesting jail should be the endpoint for a kid who is belligerent, I think in your life, you would believe that every kid should have a visit to the box at some point, because there are points in every kid's life where they are being belligerent in some way.
The suggestion that this kid should be in jail is ridiculous.
Quote: SOOPOOWhat percentage of arrests of defiant 'resisters' would you say are a 'violent assault'? If the protocol included physical removal, then the level of force used/needed is a continuum, and can't be determined exactly IN ADVANCE of the actual situation. If the protocol required calling for extra help before removal, or no physical removal unless the girl was threatening harm to others, or something else we are not aware of yet, then I could see the officer being terminated.
I don't think we have any posters who are employed as peace officers; I'd love to hear their take...
I had five years of experience working with young offenders, teenaged boys who had committed crimes, was bounced around from foster parent to foster parent, or lived with a rugrat of a single parent. Violence was always an action of last resort, and we learned through annual training proper ways to take down these kids (who were often much stronger and larger than we were) including from a sitting situation. And we learned techniques to negotiate and deescalate situations.
The correct action is to deescalate where possible. Aka. Please put your cell phone away (which she did). I'm going to ask you to come with me, please, as the teacher has asked me to remove you from the classroom. Do you want to come with me peacefully or will I need to forcefully remove you? I will give you a minute to respond. Thank you. Is everything okay? Was it necessary for you to disrupt this people who are trying to learn? Okay, you don't want to go? Fine. I am going to remove you forcibly.
Then apply your training.
She decided to openly defy a police officer. I don't feel the least bit sorry for her even though the officer could have made different choices.
Quote: boymimboYou want to fund this girl in jail for talking on a cell phone during class? Is that the preferred punishment these days for talking on a cell phone in class, incarceration? What criminal ordinance is being broken here?...
The suggestion that this kid should be in jail is ridiculous.
No, this girl should not be in jail for talking on a cell phone in class. That was never the issue. Talking on the cell phone in class is just what 'started' this whole thing. The teacher asked her to hang up and she didn't. The student is defying the teacher's legitimate and direct authority. The officer was summoned to ask her to leave the classroom. She wouldn't. If you think that the student's defying the teacher's and then the officer's legitimate command to ask her to leave a classroom that she is being disruptive in is not a serious disciplinary problem, then we completely disagree.
This girl deserved to be arrested, and not doing so sends a weak message that invites this kind of behavior.
The "victim", come on she wasn't suspended from wov. : )Quote: 1BBThe victim's parents could have been called to pick her up.
The victims here are all the other students, who need education. This female is the perpetrator not the victim.
If talking to this young women was going to help, it should have helped years ago. At sixteen she should be looking at supporting herself in some productive manner, other than suing taxpayers.
Quote: petroglyphThe "victim", come on she wasn't suspended from wov. : )
The victims here are all the other students, who need education. This female is the perpetrator not the victim.
If talking to this young women was going to help, it should have helped years ago. At sixteen she should be looking at supporting herself in some productive manner, other than suing taxpayers.
I could have gone with wayward child but no one would have responded and given me a chuckle at the same time. :-)
This girl does not deserve a dime but that's not how it works. The case will be settled out of court for an undisclosed sum, the city will admit to no wrong doing on their part and a gag order will be put in effect. Rinse and repeat. Unfortunately, it's the wrong lesson.
Quote: petroglyphThe "victim", come on she wasn't suspended from wov. : )
The victims here are all the other students, who need education. This female is the perpetrator not the victim.
If talking to this young women was going to help, it should have helped years ago. At sixteen she should be looking at supporting herself in some productive manner, other than suing taxpayers.
I believe her mother had died recently and, the father was never in the girls life. The family structure is totally nonexistent in SO many black folks today - Things have only gotten worse over time -- in the late 60's early 70's the Temptations sang about "Papa was a Rolling stone" that sure rings true today.
Quote: GreasyjohnThis girl deserved to be arrested, and not doing so sends a weak message that invites this kind of behavior.
How so? Her classmates are likely going to hear of her punishment, and it likely will be pointed had she cooperated earlier it would have been less severe.
Someone is not avoiding punishment just because cops don't play rough every time.
The solution is to deescalate. The solution never is violence unless it is a last resort. And this situation where a kid refused to leave is just screaming for a non-violent resolution, you know, those things that cops are supposed to be trained to do and the things that most people who care about humanity would prefer to do.
Yep, she's an idiot for not listening. It doesn't give someone else the privilege to throw her across a classroom.
Quote: boymimboYep, she's an idiot for not listening.
If anything, she is already her own worst enemy. Unfortunately she hasn't figured that out yet.
Watch the video. I expected to hear lots of "f*** you pig!" or "WTF DONT HURT HER" etc....but guess what -- nothing! The majority were probably silently thinking, "Come on, knock this annoying b**** out!"
A cop isn't called to the classroom to talk to her and convince her to get off the phone or leave the room. The cop was called to have the girl removed.
LOL @ "he coulda carried the girl and desk outside". Umm.....what? Yeah, so she can just claw at his face when he's doing that?
The cop did exactly what he should have done.
Quote: boymimboArrested for what? Behaviour for what? Talking on a cell phone in class and not listening to your teacher? I think they call that "Monday", not a felony. The kids are allowed cell phones and laptops in class, all of which are connected to the internet. I would bet about a zillion dollars that every single one of those kids are texting, surfing material unrelated to classroom material, and otherwise not paying attention to what is going on. The teaching staff are just fine with you not paying attention, as long as you do it quietly.
The solution is to deescalate. The solution never is violence unless it is a last resort. And this situation where a kid refused to leave is just screaming for a non-violent resolution, you know, those things that cops are supposed to be trained to do and the things that most people who care about humanity would prefer to do.
Yep, she's an idiot for not listening. It doesn't give someone else the privilege to throw her across a classroom.
It's good to hear from someone who has hands on experience with youthful offenders. Thanks for showing us that it's possible to have compassion and still get the job done.
Have an ugly boy try to kiss her.
Look at all the options.
Heh.
Quote: boymimboI had five years of experience working with young offenders, teenaged boys who had committed crimes, was bounced around from foster parent to foster parent, or lived with a rugrat of a single parent. Violence was always an action of last resort, and we learned through annual training proper ways to take down these kids (who were often much stronger and larger than we were) including from a sitting situation. And we learned techniques to negotiate and deescalate situations.
The correct action is to deescalate where possible. Aka. Please put your cell phone away (which she did). I'm going to ask you to come with me, please, as the teacher has asked me to remove you from the classroom. Do you want to come with me peacefully or will I need to forcefully remove you? I will give you a minute to respond. Thank you. Is everything okay? Was it necessary for you to disrupt this people who are trying to learn? Okay, you don't want to go? Fine. I am going to remove you forcibly.
Then apply your training.
I worked for four months at a summer camp for troubled teenagers. Most were too unruly for their parents to handle and some were foster children. This chapter in my life I discuss briefly in my Survivor audition video. Four months doesn't make me an expert, but my training was very similar to what boymimbo wrote above.
A technique used when a kid simply wouldn't obey an order, after many attempts at talking didn't work, was the "slam." This meant to pick him up, gently slam him against the wall, and make a show of who was boss. Although I'm sure it didn't hurt, this would usually put the kid in tears and bring instant compliance.
Given what little training I had, I agree with Boyminbo's "correct action." In other words, give talking every chance but force always has to be there as a last resort.
We both appreciated it. The kids in my case realized that they had a lot to lose (and I made sure of it) should I be forced to use force. The kid I dragged across the floor in the middle of the night to his bed was done because he was pretending to be asleep and we had a relationship where I knew him well enough to know that he would see my action as a joke and not an act of violence. Of course I had to write it up in the log and yeah, I got lightly reprimanded for it. We had a good chuckle over it.
I also worked in a hospital for many years where I was part of the Code Yellow team. Code Yellow is usually a psychiatric patient who has gone unruly. In this case, a team of people (usually 4-5) approach the patient in question and generally spend a good amount of time trying to talk the patient off the proverbial ledge before each of us grabbed an arm and leg and subdued the patient before an RN gave him a sedative. There was never a situation where we ended up hurting a patient.
LEOs should and do use force in cases where public safety or their own safety is at risk, and that's it. In this kid's case there was no safety issue and no reason for a one-sided rapid escalation which resulted in a child being thrown across a room.
Quote: Wizard
Given what little training I had, I agree with Boyminbo's "correct action." In other words, give talking every chance but force always has to be there as a last resort.
I would, too, and despite several of my posts here and elsewhere, I do have a deeply compassionate and pacifistic side. But your "slam" comment is quite appropriate. It's the same with any social animal, whether talking dogs or hogs or people. Many people and almost all children need a leader. We all got here and are who we are because limits were set, and sometimes it takes force to be shown that line. It's why I really like this...
Quote: GreasyjohnYour last sentence is, "Should he try and physically remove her or not?" Do you really wonder what the best course of action is? What could you possibly consider besides arresting her? I'd like to know. If it gets to this point and we're still scratching our heads about it our country is really in trouble.
And really dislike this...
Quote: terapinedMaybe approach this problem with out of the box thinking.
How about ending the class, the teacher and students leave the cop and student alone in the room.
How long is she going to sit there bored with the cop as her only company.
Cop cant be busy, school cop. Most days boring.
I dunno. Maybe it's because I was born at the age of 52 and now I'm a cranky old codger, but stuff like terapined's post really puts me on edge. I think what bothers me most is that it's not entirely wrong. There are other ways to deal with it, and a mass class delay is one. But, and this is a huge "but" slammed home by my advanced age, I am done to death with nearly every part of society bending to the actions of the thoughtless ruffian. You pay extra for insurance unless you pay extra for a theft deterrent system. It's impossible to get a satisfactory cold remedy. I'm "this close" to having to submit to a background check every time I paint a car. I'm sure some of you men of a certain age could list a hundred things which have changed not because of breakthroughs, or new tech, or safety, but all because some ne'er-do-well went and ruined things for everyone. Aren't you tired of that yet?
I watched a video a few months back. Girl, approx 16-18. Boy, approx 5-7. Mid day walk through the park. Oh, but it was the wrong park. Suddenly Girl is jumped by a monster who had about 8 friends in tow, who video taped what was a one sided beat down. 30 seconds of the beating go by, which is taking place at the feet of this young Boy, when Girl is granted a reprieve. She gains her feet and simply walked away. The camera follows with jeers and hoots about how Girl pissed herself. The jeers lasted only another 30 seconds because the monster returned and resumed the beat down. Now the Boy, who was either brother or son, finally tries to intervene and the monster cold cocks him and stomps his head into the ground.
I've seen way too much of this s#$%. I can't even link to the video I'm describing because I had to wade through 4 or 5 others as there's so many, and now I'm so pissed off I have to stop before I wind up killing someone at hockey tonight. It offends me on a level so deep I almost red-out. I'm literally sweating right now. This is the type of s#$% that happens when a child is not shown the line. Little monsters grow up to become actual monsters.
Absolutely make your programs and offer your help and be there, as much as you can. Absolutely volunteer. Absolutely support those who do. But when possible problems or the likelihood of a problem turns into an actual problem, man... the first step back to that line begins with a stiff right cross.
It was, still remains as follows :
Too many facts about this incident that I don't know and probably will never know, so I cannot cheer or condemn the officer. I can easily condemn the girl for being a really dumb teenager, but that is all at this point.
I do know there are schools in this country where an officer entering an escalating situation in a classroom full of 16 year olds by himself should be realistically concerned for his safety and the safety of the other students and teacher in that classroom. Could be a half dozen 18 yr old Crips that have failed a grade or two in there. Not really.....I guess they quit school before that......
I have to assume the officer knew the school well enough to access the situation properly. I know the video is rough viewing, and no she is not my daughter. I put a lot of faith in law enforcement. I say that even though I have been mis-treated myself once or thrice in my life by officers. I was never roughed up because I was very careful to give them no excuse whatsoever. The incidents wound up in court, after a night or more in jail, cost me more than they should have. And I was not always even remotely guilty of what I was charged with. But truth be told, I was never tempted, once I settled down a bit, to blame the officers for handling the situation they found themselves in, in just the way they handled it. Maybe I was just lucky (there is the tie-in to gambling forum). On second thought, beware the police in Benton TN, be extra careful there. They stole some stuff from my vehicle, maybe the tow company stole the stuff. Quite a few of my associates have had problems in Benton TN ( think kayakers ) so I suspect it wasn't a coincidence. But I digress....
It is possible that the 'chief', or whatever the title is, did bend to pressure in the dismissal. No one in position of authority would want their dept put under the spotlight the way this incident was in the nat'l media. Also certain the 'chief' knows more about this officer's history of dealing with escalating situations successfully (or not) in the past. Also possible the dept will assist the officer getting placed in another comparable position, quietly, once this all blows over.
I don't know, I expect that few if any here know the whole story, or ever will.
Quote: Face
I've seen way too much of this s#$%. I can't even link to the video I'm describing because I had to wade through 4 or 5 others as there's so many, and now I'm so pissed off I have to stop before I wind up killing someone at hockey tonight. It offends me on a level so deep I almost red-out. I'm literally sweating right now. This is the type of s#$% that happens when a child is not shown the line. Little monsters grow up to become actual monsters.
The kid in question came out of foster care and has probably seen her share of violence. It's good to be shown the line when "the line" is appropriate. The actual lesson learned by this kid, now famous and likely to be the recipient of a settlement is that belligerence pays.
Quote: boymimboThe kid in question came out of foster care and has probably seen her share of violence. It's good to be shown the line when "the line" is appropriate. The actual lesson learned by this kid, now famous and likely to be the recipient of a settlement is that belligerence pays.
I did see someone post that, which is why I felt the need to add a bit about the compassion. Surely there reaches a point were violence only begets violence. But I'd argue the problem of the "lesson" is a separate issue entirely, that being our asinine litigious society.
But I don't wanna derail or even go down that road right now. I gotta hit the ice. At least there, punishments are still meted out immediately and with great prejudice =p
Edit: Nvm. GD daylight savings time. I still got another hour =p
Quote: TwoFeathersATL
It is possible that the 'chief', or whatever the title is, did bend to pressure in the dismissal. No one in position of authority would want their dept put under the spotlight the way this incident was in the nat'l media. Also certain the 'chief' knows more about this officer's history of dealing with escalating situations successfully (or not) in the past. Also possible the dept will assist the officer getting placed in another comparable position, quietly, once this all blows over.
I don't know, I expect that few if any here know the whole story, or ever will.
There are 30 eyewitnesses in the classroom and teachers. There is video. Here is one student's assessment:
Quote: Daily Mail UKAaron Johnson tweeted: ‘this happened at spring valley high school, mr longs room. When I asked mr long if he felt bad for what happened to her…
‘his reply was “she should have cooperated.”’ In the following days, the teen told his followers that classmates were still none the wiser as to what the student had done wrong. Aaron Johnson wrote: 'Okay our teacher still hasnt stated what it was she did. talking, chewing gum, or being on her phone, etc. Reguardless [sic], it was unnecessary.
'The teacher was really quiet when discussing whatever she did. Whatever she did couldnt have been that bad because nobody knew what it was.
'The officer came in because she wouldnt leave the class when the teacher toild [sic] her to. I still dont know what she did to be asked to leave.'
On Monday, he wrote: 'Just to be clear, before the video, she was sitting quietly at her desk. Did nothing to provoke the officer.
'The girl in the video was new to our class, and she was quiet like she never talked to anyone.' Another student, who confirmed he was in the math class, tweeted: ‘I was here and nobody even knew what she did when he grabbed her that’s how f**** up it was.’
The girl involved was recently orphaned, having lost her mother and grandmother in the past year and had been placed in foster care, her attorney said.
There are other eyewitness encounters too:
Quote: heavy.comSeabrooks wrote in the video description on Youtube, “The officer in this is a cool dude,he is not Racist!!!. Girl was asked her to put the phone away,but told teacher no and Administrator was called and asked her to come to his office. She told him no,he then called the resource officer. When he got there he asked her nicely to get up.Over and over he did nothing wrong. They asked her to get up but she wanted to show off. To some it looks bad but she wanted to prove that she was bad.”
Quote: Heavy.comThe incident started when the teacher, Robert Long, saw the girl on her cell phone and asked her to put it away, her classmate, Tony Robinson Jr., told WLTX-TV.
“She really hadn’t done anything wrong,” he told the news station. “She said she took her phone out, but it was only for a quick second.”
An administrator, who is seen in the video, came to the classroom, and eventually called for Fields, the school resource officer.
Robinson said he could tell Fields was going to do something as soon as he arrived. He said Fields moved the girl’s laptop and then told another student to move a desk out of the way.
“I’ve never seen anything so nasty looking, so sick to the point that other students are turning away,” Robinson said. “They’re just scared for their lives. That’s supposed to be someone that’s going to protect us. Not somebody to be scared of.”
So yeah, we know exactly what happened.
Quote: boymimboThere are 30 eyewitnesses in the classroom and teachers. There is video. Here is one student's assessment:
Quote: Daily Mail UKAaron Johnson tweeted: ‘this happened at spring valley high school, mr longs room. When I asked mr long if he felt bad for what happened to her…
‘his reply was “she should have cooperated.”’ In the following days, the teen told his followers that classmates were still none the wiser as to what the student had done wrong. Aaron Johnson wrote: 'Okay our teacher still hasnt stated what it was she did. talking, chewing gum, or being on her phone, etc. Reguardless [sic], it was unnecessary.
'The teacher was really quiet when discussing whatever she did. Whatever she did couldnt have been that bad because nobody knew what it was.
'The officer came in because she wouldnt leave the class when the teacher toild [sic] her to. I still dont know what she did to be asked to leave.'
On Monday, he wrote: 'Just to be clear, before the video, she was sitting quietly at her desk. Did nothing to provoke the officer.
'The girl in the video was new to our class, and she was quiet like she never talked to anyone.' Another student, who confirmed he was in the math class, tweeted: ‘I was here and nobody even knew what she did when he grabbed her that’s how f**** up it was.’
The girl involved was recently orphaned, having lost her mother and grandmother in the past year and had been placed in foster care, her attorney said.
There are other eyewitness encounters too:
So yeah, we know exactly what happened.
I have to, and I hope that is OK with you, stick with my post which you quoted only partially. You have cited accounts reported by UK Daily News and Heavy.com by a couple of witnesses, or at least that is what is reported by those sources. I will assume that both sources are legitimate news organizations that attempt to deliver the truth ( an assumption that get's harder to make as we move forward in time ). I have not seen any criminal prosecution being brought by the 'State', Federal or the real State of SC as of yet but maybe I am behind on the latest and greatest 'news' stories. I feel sure investigation continues by several entities that claim jurisdiction over the areas of concern that surface in this particular incident. Hopefully they sort this out appropriately, for their jurisdiction, rather than just spend a bunch of the taxpayer's money fruitlessly while attempting to justify the existence of their various jurisdictional regulatory and judicial branches. Try to remain hopeful.
Until all that happens, I will continue to believe that I do not know the 'whole story' and so cannot pass judgement. I am a bit surprised, only a bit, that others are ready to rush to premature judgements. Of course, I could be totally wrong.
Quote: rxwineMr. Grimes, mathematics teacher achieves discipline in the classroom. Observe.
In my post-coup America... j/k
Thanks for that. I laughed right out loud XD
You do realize that you are comparing the treatment of inmates to an immature and stupid high-school senior girl
You do realize that incidents like this happen every day in just about every school and they do not end in violence.
But whatever, dude. The sky is green and the Mets have won the World Series.
Quote: boymimboYou do realize that incidents like this happen every day in just about every school and they do not end in violence.
Most of the time, the kid ends up leaving the classroom. Not because of what the teacher/principal/etc. do -- but because the kid does it on his/her own.
Imagine driving down the road, you run a red light, a cop pulls out behind you, turns on his lights to pull you over. You decide to just keep going, for whatever reason. You don't speed, run any more lights, etc. you just keep on driving. Finally, you get to your destination (or you run out of gas)...you get out of your car and you get tackled by the police. Do you still say, "People run red lights all the time, every single day.....but those almost never end in violence!" ?
What are you (teacher/principal/cop) to do when you're in such a situation? "Yeah, we'll just talk to the girl for 45 minutes, taking up the entire class time for this punk girl."
Saying "being on her cell phone in class does not merit her getting slammed to the ground" is just as bad as saying "Michael Brown was walking down the street...that didn't merit him getting murdered!" They're both ridiculous statements.
Quote:The cost of resolving police-misconduct cases has surged for big U.S. cities in recent years, even before the current wave of scrutiny faced by law-enforcement over tactics
Quote:“The numbers are staggering, and they have huge consequences for taxpayers,” says Kami Chavis Simmons, a former assistant U.S. attorney who now directs the criminal-justice program at Wake Forest University School of Law. “Municipalities should take a hard look at the culture of police organizations and any structural reforms that might help alleviate the possibility of some of these huge civil suits.”
Quote:The data don’t indicate whether cities are settling such claims more quickly, but some recent cases suggest that might be happening, especially in cases involving video.
http://www.wsj.com/articles/cost-of-police-misconduct-cases-soars-in-big-u-s-cities-1437013834
The girl was quietly texting on her phone by some accounts, talking on it in others (mostly on here). She refused to leave when told to go. Yes, she's in violation and causing a nuisance. No, she should not be rewarded for her actions.
The officer had other options short of what he did. That's part of how our justice system seems to work; those who are given authority over others are held to a higher standard in how they enforce their authority.
What did he teach that school (the other kids) about handling a situation with his example? He made it OK to dump a woman on the floor and throw her across a room for being stubborn and/or disobedient. Gee, thanks, officer. I've been hit before; I wonder where my attacker learned it.
I still think that, not knowing all the facts, I have to trust the police chief's judgement on whether the officer should have been commended, put on admin leave, or fired. He chose the latter.
Quote: beachbumbabs...I still think that, not knowing all the facts, I have to trust the police chief's judgement on whether the officer should have been commended, put on admin leave, or fired. He chose the latter.
...and I don't. way too many times the bosses don't have the guts to back their employees or to evaluate the situation and offer proper discipline, if called for. They bow to public pressure due to the media. Someone is fired and then the whole story comes together and ends up not supporting the firing.
I think he would have been better to issue a longer suspension and desk duty so the issue is fully investigated.
I agree that others shouldn't be punished for one bad apple in most cases.Quote: Wizard
I'm pretty sure that teachers are not generally allowed to punish a whole class for something one student did -- and rightly so.
.
I have seen group punishments usually involving a situation where an unknown student has done something like vandalism, theft or some over the top prank until someone comes forward identifying themselves or the culprit. Parents often use this tactic. Just the the threat usually works because their peers will usually put pressure on whoever did it to turn themselves in. In some a good deal of cases they comply in fear of ostracized.
I think just the verbal threat may have been sufficient. Someone mentioned they felt this student was trying to save face in front of the other students. I would have to agree this is the reason she took it so far. She probably cared far more about what her peers thought. I say use that peer pressure against her.
The fact is police are given a latitudinal range of options. Those options are held in check by procedure and are determined by law and agency training/procedure. I.e. the cop can use verbal force, move up to restraining physical force, etc. The officer cannot pull out his gun and shoot person in head for not leaving class or baton the person till skull is fractured, etc.
Now, these are in place so there is no situation where someone in law enforcement oversteps (or understeps) their boundaries. Much the same way a judge when sentencing a prisoner based on a particular verdict of guilt has an under or over leeway. He may wish to cut off a rapists peepee, or sentence him to three consecutive lifeterms but the law will say something like mandatory 10-15 years, or something.
These are done to prevent judicial misconduct in sentencing procedure.
So, now, we look at police procedure for what latitude the officer had here. The chief looked at the video. He saw actions that were not within those boundaries (he listed throwing a non-violent person across the room as a primary) and has taken appropriate action for police officers misconduct.
Note we don't have to ask what the officer could have done differently, the law and that counties police procedure tell us (at least they set boundaries on what he could not have done).
Everyone arguing their opinion of what the officer should have done is ridiculous.
Now the sheriff probably also is given leeway in what he can do for the infraction. From desk duty to firing. Like a judge who throws the book at a criminal, the sheriff chose to do that here. Probably because of the scrutiny and embarrassment but if its within his latitude of choices, then he has exercised those rights. You too would probably fire someone who embarrassed you nationally if that was one of your options. We are all human.
"Depending on who you talk to and which documents you read, Ben Fields is either an outstanding school resource officer or a deputy once sued for using excessive force."
http://www.cnn.com/2015/10/27/us/south-carolina-who-is-ben-fields/
He has been sued, but my neighbor spent five years under threat of a lawsuit for actions of his officers; I don't consider a lawsuit that was partially dismissed and other parts found in favor of the officer anything too serious at this point. The other one may have merit, but it has not been tried and we won't know until it is.
"They asked her to get up but she wanted to show off. To some it looks bad but she wanted to prove that she was bad."--from a student in the class.
"If a student disturbs school -- and that's a wide range of activities, 'disturbing schools' -- they can be arrested. Our goal has always been to see what we can do without arresting the kids. We don't need to arrest these students. We need to keep them in schools."
http://www.cnn.com/2015/10/29/us/south-carolina-school-arrest-videos/
Huh. She may have actually been violating a law instead of just a school rule, too.
Lots of stuff on both sides.
Quote: RSImagine driving down the road, you run a red light, a cop pulls out behind you, turns on his lights to pull you over. You decide to just keep going, for whatever reason. You don't speed, run any more lights, etc. you just keep on driving. Finally, you get to your destination (or you run out of gas)...you get out of your car and you get tackled by the police. Do you still say, "People run red lights all the time, every single day.....but those almost never end in violence!" ?
1. You're an adult.
2. The cop will not tackle you in this situation. He will pull a gun and tell you to put your hands in the air when you get out of the car. Likely he would have called for backup. Likely the cop would have pulled beside you to get your attention. Likely the cop would have pulled in front of you to slow you down. Likely the cop would have called for backup.
Quote: boymimbo1. You're an adult.
2. The cop will not tackle you in this situation. He will pull a gun and tell you to put your hands in the air when you get out of the car. Likely he would have called for backup. Likely the cop would have pulled beside you to get your attention. Likely the cop would have pulled in front of you to slow you down. Likely the cop would have called for backup.
Okay, instead of getting tackled, I get a gun pulled on me.
"Is running a red light justification for getting a gun pulled on me?"
That's what these (stupid) arguments sound like. "Trayvon Martin was just walking home after he got a late night snack and he got murdered. Does being black really warrant getting murdered!?"
You take 2 pieces of the puzzle and jam them together to make a story you like.
Quote: RSWhat are you (teacher/principal/cop) to do when you're in such a situation? "Yeah, we'll just talk to the girl for 45 minutes, taking up the entire class time for this punk girl."
Teachers who work with high school seniors should have the skills to stop problem behaviour. I think your odds of happiness and success as such would depend highly on those abilities.
Teacher should/do have skills to help prevent problem behavior, but can't stop it completely. The problem is on the GIRL who refused to do what she should have done. It's not on the teacher.
Try getting in an argument/discussion with someone, and every time you voice your opinion, they say, "Nope! You're wrong." There's no way in hell you're going to be able to convince that person otherwise. Much like the teacher and the girl [or so I'm thinking].
Quote: RS
Try getting in an argument/discussion with someone, and every time you voice your opinion, they say, "Nope! You're wrong." There's no way in hell you're going to be able to convince that person otherwise. Much like the teacher and the girl [or so I'm thinking].
Nope, you're wrong
Quote: boymimboTeachers who work with high school seniors should have the skills to stop problem behaviour. I think your odds of happiness and success as such would depend highly on those abilities.
Well teachers in many areas are trained for problem situation, but everyone is different, and every situation is different.
If the girl is just shutting out everyone, you can talk to her until the end of times, and or won't matter. Eventually force or coecerion will have to be used.
So if the options are physical removal or bribery (give her an incentive or give in to her demands), obviously physcial removal is most appropriate, you can't bend to the desire of somebody interrupting class.
People in their late teens are hardly "kids", and if they become impossible, yeah sometimes they have to be subdued. You can't interrupt the class for dozens of students , while people try to kindly talk sense into the girl and feed her cookies....
Quote: RSAnd what do you do when the kid is being a total punk and isn't budging whatsoever? And please don't say "bring class outside", "call principal/parents", "try to talk to her more", or anything like that.
Teacher should/do have skills to help prevent problem behavior, but can't stop it completely. The problem is on the GIRL who refused to do what she should have done. It's not on the teacher.
Try getting in an argument/discussion with someone, and every time you voice your opinion, they say, "Nope! You're wrong." There's no way in hell you're going to be able to convince that person otherwise. Much like the teacher and the girl [or so I'm thinking].
Of course the GIRL is the problem. The solution is not violence. You can physically remove a person [subdue] from a classroom without violence. Violence should only be used as a final response when public safety or your own safety is at risk.
Quote: boymimboYou can physically remove a person [subdue] from a classroom without violence.
Looks like the cop was trying to "subdue" the black chick, before she clawed at him. Note his (left?) hand, he's trying to pick her up out of her desk...before she starts clawing at him. Starts around 0:24 [slow motion] in the following youtube video.
His actions were wrong. His intention once he approached was always was to pick the girl up off of the chair and tackle her. This is because his left hand is going for under the girl's left leg while his right is going for the hands (and this is before the resistance). By far the most likely result of that action is her toppling backwards out of the chair. If it had ended there, it might have been ok. It was the throw that then becomes a more egregious issue, especially with cameras rolling.
Nonetheless pretty much all SRO folks talking have not supported the officer's actions, all preferring much more time for negotiating, conflict resolution, and relationship building. The SRO should not be called on to remove a student unless they are a threat to safety, and in this case, talking on a cell phone is a threat to no one.
A case for reprimand action: We all make mistake, and should deserve a second chance depending on the severity of the current and/or past misconducts. As an individual with compassion, I believe the officer should be given a second chance.
A case for firing action: To set a good example in order to restore trust and/or to effectively send a message affected audiences. Putting my compassion for this one officer aside and look at a much larger picture of the TOO many incidents of police “caught on tape” misconducts, I think the firing of this officer is appropriate because his firing should serve as an effective way to send a loud and clear message to all law enforcement personnel that police brutality or unnecessary excessive use of force will not be tolerated. Considering the too many recent incidents of police “caught on tape” misconducts, it is reasonable to say that this officer is a victim of his own “bad luck”.
A case for reward action: No explanation is needed.
Quote: boymimboThe solution is not violence. You can physically remove a person [subdue] from a classroom without violence. Violence should only be used as a final response when public safety or your own safety is at risk.
I wouldn't call what the officer did "violence." It was just a technique to subdue a disorderly person. You can see such sudden take downs on just about any episode of Cops.
I don't see what is so radical about the idea of following orders from a police officer. Imagine how many fewer police shootings there would be if everybody learned to respect authority.
