eddiekim52
eddiekim52
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July 16th, 2015 at 2:59:05 PM permalink
I was in Las Vegas earlier this week and I was playing Pai Gow Poker at Planet Hollywood. I was banking and was dealt an ace-high: AQJ9xxx and I don't remember the bottom three cards.

I tried to set Q9 in the low hand and AJ in the high hand. (At the time I thought that was optimal strategy, I realize now I'm wrong. But that's neither here or there.)

The dealer told me I was "fouling" my hand and demanded that I play QJ in the low hand. I appealed to the pit boss and the pit boss actually backed the dealer's claim. I was still adamant that I had the right to play Q9 so the pit boss made a phone call. After the phone call, they still told me I was required to play the house way.

Honestly, I was ready to quit fighting it because I was slowing down the game for other people at the table for what was ultimately not a lot of money. But a witness who saw the whole thing go down insisted that I fight it to the end. The game was delayed for a total of about 15 minutes and the casino supervisor was finally called over. Finally, I got the correct ruling: I have the right to play Q9 because it's my money. The dealer even had the audacity to shake her head "no" at the casino supervisor.

The dealer flips over her hand and ultimately ends up with a small pair on the bottom and Q9 copy on top. She graded it as a house win and demanded that the bank (me) pay. Again, the casino supervisor had to tell the dealer she was wrong. The dealer had no idea that the bank wins the copies, not the house!

After the hand was over, I had a very lengthy discussion with the casino supervisor. The casino supervisor flat out told me, "This casino isn't like other casinos. We don't cater to the clientele that likes to bank so our dealers don't know the rules when it comes to player banking."

The question I have is NOT, "is the dealer in the wrong here?" I already know the answer to this question, the dealer was unequivocally wrong.

Rather, the question that I have for you guys is, "Am I being too unreasonable that I'm still fuming over this incident two days later?"

EDIT: It's not so much whether or not I was forced to play house way. My anger comes from these three points mainly...
1. The dealer didn't know what "foul" meant. According to her, every way that isn't house way is a foul.
2. The dealer didn't know that the bank wins the copies, not the house.
3. The casino supervisor told me that it wasn't dealer's fault. It was my fault because I confused the dealer by electing to bank. Even though the casino allows banking. The casino supervisor told me that she's been in the industry for 17 years and she has never seen a no pair hand played with anything other than 2nd & 3rd on top.

Thanks guys!
sabre
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July 16th, 2015 at 3:31:15 PM permalink
I thought is was common to require use of the house way when a player banks.

And yes, you're being very unreasonable.
Wizard
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July 16th, 2015 at 3:42:57 PM permalink
First let me say that in pai gow (tiles) whether banking or not you may play your tiles however you wish. I would imagine this is the case in pai gow poker as well.

Regarding your situation, I think you have the right to be a little mad but it sounds like you're making too big a deal over it. Yes, you should have been allowed to play however you wish without fouling your hand. However, if the casino wishes to have a rule that banking players must play the house way, just let them. I know optimal strategy is a little better but if you're trying to get the best odds possible, there are probably better games to play.

What I find ironic is that you're mad that the casino prevented you from making an inferior play. Maybe a bad comparison, but kind of like being denied a double down in blackjack on a blackjack, which I've heard of happening.
"For with much wisdom comes much sorrow." -- Ecclesiastes 1:18 (NIV)
eddiekim52
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July 16th, 2015 at 3:48:19 PM permalink
Quite the contrary: I've never heard of a single instance where the player bank must set it the house way. (So long as the player is assuming the full financial risk, instead of some co-banking shenanigans.)

The house way exists only to protect the house's money and to eliminate dealer skill from the game. Obviously, the dealer isn't playing with her own money so she'd rather give money away instead of taking money from the players. If the dealer had the option to do whatever she wanted, she'd deliberately set her hand wrong every time so she can pay the players.

I'm not an employee of Planet Hollywood. I don't even know what their house way is. Why should I have to learn their house way just to play at their casino?

Forcing the player to play the house way is the same as forcing the player to hit on 16 and stand on 17 in blackjack.
Hunterhill
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July 16th, 2015 at 3:50:57 PM permalink
I don't think he's mad because the casino has certain rules.I think he's mad that the staff doesn't know their own rules.
This used to be a common problem with 3cp in it's first few years. You get paid the ante bonus even if you lose the hand (with a straight or better ) many times thr dealer the floor and even the pit boss didn't know this and it would end up turning into a long argument. I understand your frustration.
The mountain is tall but grass grows on top of the mountain.
eddiekim52
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July 16th, 2015 at 3:52:06 PM permalink
I appreciate the response.

What bothered me the most about this situation is that casino supervisor told me that the casino deliberately doesn't cater to players that typically like to bank. The casino supervisor conceded that their dealers don't know how to handle the game when the player banks. Then why allow that as an option?

I live in Chicago. The casinos in my area don't allow player banking, period. That's their rule. They've made it clear. And I'm fine with that.
terapined
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July 16th, 2015 at 4:01:59 PM permalink
My take is the banker, dealer or player, must play the house way.
For the player, there should be no difference between playing against a dealer banking, or a player banking.
When a player sits down to a pai gow game, they are playing against the house way regardless of who is banking.
The rules cannot change for a player in the middle of a game because a different player decides to bank the next round instead of the dealer.
The rule is you are playing against the house way.
eddiekim52
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July 16th, 2015 at 4:07:15 PM permalink
Terapined,

I never thought about it that way. You bring up a good point and it certainly changes my opinion of what I said earlier (forcing the player to hit on 16).
beachbumbabs
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July 16th, 2015 at 4:39:42 PM permalink
I play paigow and I bank.

I should note, the only rule about fouling a hand is that your five card hand must outrank your two card hand or the hand is fouled; the Wizard didn't say this, but I think it's implicit in the discussion.

Everywhere I've played, as bank or as player I'm allowed to set the hand within that parameter, any way I wish. A lot of times, when a player banks, people will set their hand in a way that is more likely to provide a push (you see this more often on a player who's not banking). You're absolutely NOT responsible or required to set a hand the way the house does, or even know the house way.

I hate being in your position, eddie, where you're having to fight for the right rules, and when I've had to do it, I've stayed spooled up about it for several days, so I understand your agitation. I'm glad you persisted, but it's very hard to be put in a position to have to do so. Despite that, the game should be a little better at PH for your having done so. Sounds like the players were getting screwed a little if both the dealer and first PB didn't understand the bank or the game.

You will find IMO the best Vegas game at the Mirage, followed closely by Harrah's, where they deal it 24/7 and most know their job. Harrah's gets 2nd only because they make you bet 2x minimum to play 2 hands. Gold Coast is very popular w/PGP players and has many tables, but they have the Dragon rather than allowing 2 hands, so I don't enjoy playing there, but many others do.

I don't know what PH is good for, but there's better PGP just across the street/down the street, so you might try those next time.
If the House lost every hand, they wouldn't deal the game.
ahiromu
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July 16th, 2015 at 5:16:45 PM permalink
Protecting your ace is an East coast thing, I learned it in AC and I tend to get funny looks when in Vegas (I don't do it as often anymore).

I have been allowed to set my hand however I wanted to at PH while banking, however, I rarely got the chance because the tables tend to be crowded (I only bank when playing alone and prefer a slow game). I am surprised you found such an aggressive dealer at PH. From my experience, they seem to hire on dealer outgoingness/friendliness.
Its - Possessive; It's - "It is" / "It has"; There - Location; Their - Possessive; They're - "They are"
Wizard
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July 16th, 2015 at 5:32:22 PM permalink
I don't play pai gow poker much, but have banked a few times and was allowed to set the hand as I wished. If the OP is mad that the casino doesn't know their own rules, then welcome to the club. As someone else wrote, I bet 90% of dealers would not pay the player the Ante Bonus in Three Card Poker if the dealer had the higher hand.

I also suspect that few dealer or supervisors even know the house way completely. With a tricky hand the MO seems to that the dealer asks the floor and the floor says anything. How often do you seem them consult something in writing?

A thing that bothers me is that when the floor corrects the dealer on the house way somehow it always seems to work against the player, either turning a push to a loss or win to a push.
"For with much wisdom comes much sorrow." -- Ecclesiastes 1:18 (NIV)
SOOPOO
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July 16th, 2015 at 6:03:04 PM permalink
Quote: terapined

My take is the banker, dealer or player, must play the house way.
For the player, there should be no difference between playing against a dealer banking, or a player banking.
When a player sits down to a pai gow game, they are playing against the house way regardless of who is banking.
The rules cannot change for a player in the middle of a game because a different player decides to bank the next round instead of the dealer.
The rule is you are playing against the house way.



This is incorrect. I have banked at numerous casinos and have never been required to play house ways. The players are alerted that a player is banking, and they are afforded the opportunity to alter or withdraw their bet before the cards are dealt. They are not playing against house way when a player banks. When a player 'co-banks', which is allowed in fewer and fewer places, the player is required to play house way.

Terapined, can you name any casino that requires a player banker to play house ways? It would be new to me.....
gts4ever
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July 16th, 2015 at 11:01:28 PM permalink
for what it's worth I just finished up a long weekend at PH and played many hours of pgp banking as often as possible. I did not have many issues except that (as usual) the bank moved differently depending on the dealer. I used to argue but now I let it go since some don't care and let you bank every other even when the house way is to rotate (this is a general comment as I'm actually not sure of the ph house rule). I tell myself it cancels out the few who zigzag it (only one this trip).

Bonus Bad Beat story:
Me and the dealer heads up, turned over one of the best hands I've ever seen. aces full with a pair of tens on top. Dealer turns over 7777x with a pair of queens :) sadly enough it's hands like these that make the game so fun to me....
ams288
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July 17th, 2015 at 5:29:30 AM permalink
I'd be fuming too.

Whenever I get into an argument with a dealer and I know I'm right, it pisses me off.

Usually my arguments are about proper basic strategy in blackjack. One time a dealer at the Bellagio told me he'd bet me $100K that he was right about when to surrender and when not to. He had some crazy idea that you surrender 15s against a 9 but not 16s (he was wrong on both counts). He was so sure he was right. I told him I'd ABSOLUTELY take that bet. But his shift ended and we never resolved it.
Ding Dong the Witch is Dead
terapined
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July 17th, 2015 at 6:43:02 AM permalink
Quote: SOOPOO

This is incorrect. I have banked at numerous casinos and have never been required to play house ways. The players are alerted that a player is banking, and they are afforded the opportunity to alter or withdraw their bet before the cards are dealt. They are not playing against house way when a player banks. When a player 'co-banks', which is allowed in fewer and fewer places, the player is required to play house way.

Terapined, can you name any casino that requires a player banker to play house ways? It would be new to me.....



I'm a low roller ploppy, what do I know.
I thought my post made logical sense, but then gambling is not logical so why should a gambling game follow logic :-)

The countdown begins, will be in Vegas in 8 days.
Hmm, maybe play some pai gow at PH and see if I can bank and use JB's way instead of the house way.
BlueEagle
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July 17th, 2015 at 8:19:57 PM permalink
A month or two ago I banked at Aliante while the pit man happened to be watching the table. I don't remember what crappy hand I was dealt, but I rhetorically asked myself aloud "Should I play the house way or my way?" The pit responded that he believed I had to play the house way while banking. I was surprised, but did as I was told while he went off to make a phone call. He came back to say that a player banker can play their hand any way they wish, and asked if it would have made a difference in the outcome of the hand in question. It didn't, I lost either way.

An understandable reason why other players don't want to play against a player banker is because the player can set their hand using optimal strategy instead of house strategy, which could make it harder for the other players to win.
eddiekim52
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July 18th, 2015 at 1:08:21 AM permalink
Quote: Wizard

I don't play pai gow poker much, but have banked a few times and was allowed to set the hand as I wished. If the OP is mad that the casino doesn't know their own rules, then welcome to the club.



This is only the start.

The biggest thing that upset me is that the casino supervisor (Lisa?) told me that she didn't hold the dealer responsible for the mixup. She implied it was my fault: by electing to bank, I confused the dealer.

EDIT - I'm paraphrasing here because I don't remember her exact words, but it was something along the lines of, "When the dealers get put in an unusual situation, they get confused. At Planet Hollywood, a player electing to bank is an unusual situation."

Quote: gts4ever

for what it's worth I just finished up a long weekend at PH and played many hours of pgp banking as often as possible. I did not have many issues except that (as usual) the bank moved differently depending on the dealer. I used to argue but now I let it go since some don't care and let you bank every other even when the house way is to rotate (this is a general comment as I'm actually not sure of the ph house rule).



I noticed that the dealers at PH don't understand this either. But I, too, let this one go.

To be fair, I played two straight days at PH before running into the problem that I'm posting about.

Others commented that the graveyard shift actually know exactly what they're doing. It's the weekday, daytime dealers that are clueless.
Paigowdan
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July 18th, 2015 at 2:13:06 AM permalink
With this thread, we are looking at the death knell for playing banking in the pit.

Now, the original OP was absolutely 100% correct (he may set his hand as he sees fit, he gets the copies, etc.), but player banking is consistently a nightmare to implement in the casino pit. Even when operating smoothly, it kills hands per hour and table hold/profits, and yes, casino operators may concern themselves with these issues.

Player Banking on PGP occurred when William Walsh ("Billy Woo") converted the poker room version of PGP to casino use, leaving it in as a legacy or vestige feature, like an inflamed appendix, really. Billy Woo is a great guy and did a great thing bringing PGP into the casinos, but banking has been nothing but an albatross on the game.

New variants of PGP, especially commission-free versions, consistently don't have banking, as the only way to get revenue from players banking their own money against players is to charge a commission, which doesn't exist on no commission games.
Beware of all enterprises that require new clothes - Henry David Thoreau. Like Dealers' uniforms - Dan.
terapined
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July 18th, 2015 at 3:55:18 AM permalink
Quote: Paigowdan

With this thread, we are looking at the death knell for playing banking in the pit.

Now, the original OP was absolutely 100% correct (he may set his hand as he sees fit, he gets the copies, etc.), but player banking is consistently a nightmare to implement in the casino pit. Even when operating smoothly, it kills hands per hour and table hold/profits, and yes, casino operators may concern themselves with these issues.

Player Banking on PGP occurred when William Walsh ("Billy Woo") converted the poker room version of PGP to casino use, leaving it in as a legacy or vestige feature, like an inflamed appendix, really. Billy Woo is a great guy and did a great thing bringing PGP into the casinos, but banking has been nothing but an albatross on the game.

New variants of PGP, especially commission-free versions, consistently don't have banking, as the only way to get revenue from players banking their own money against players is to charge a commission, which doesn't exist on no commission games.



I like the commission free games.
Will be in Vegas in 7 days
Is there commission free PGP on the strip?
I only play downtown or the strip,
I know Golden Nugget downtown has a commission free game, is there a commission free game on the strip?
Paigowdan
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July 18th, 2015 at 6:02:13 AM permalink
Quote: terapined

Quote: Paigowdan

With this thread, we are looking at the death knell for playing banking in the pit.

Now, the original OP was absolutely 100% correct (he may set his hand as he sees fit, he gets the copies, etc.), but player banking is consistently a nightmare to implement in the casino pit. Even when operating smoothly, it kills hands per hour and table hold/profits, and yes, casino operators may concern themselves with these issues.

Player Banking on PGP occurred when William Walsh ("Billy Woo") converted the poker room version of PGP to casino use, leaving it in as a legacy or vestige feature, like an inflamed appendix, really. Billy Woo is a great guy and did a great thing bringing PGP into the casinos, but banking has been nothing but an albatross on the game.

New variants of PGP, especially commission-free versions, consistently don't have banking, as the only way to get revenue from players banking their own money against players is to charge a commission, which doesn't exist on no commission games.



I like the commission free games.
Will be in Vegas in 7 days
Is there commission free PGP on the strip?


One that I know of, Hooters, is on Trop right by the MGM. But many off-strip properties offer commission-free PGP. The Cannery group, And Stations also: Palace Station ("not really a strip property"), Fiesta Henderson, Boulder station, etc.

The East Side Cannery is on Sahara, actually between Sahara and Tropicana, on Boulder Highway. Good table games place, I recommend you see it.


Strip Properties offer commission-based PGP, as it has a slightly higher house edge, and they are reluctant to change.
Quote: terapined


I only play downtown or the strip,
I know Golden Nugget downtown has a commission free game, is there a commission free game on the strip?


The Nugget is fine, as is Hooters and Palace Station. You're there to play.

But you might want to venture out to the East Cannery or to Green Valley Ranch.

I assure you, Vegas is a LOT bigger than the tourists' strip....You'll just be a tourist, otherwise....
Beware of all enterprises that require new clothes - Henry David Thoreau. Like Dealers' uniforms - Dan.
ams288
ams288
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July 18th, 2015 at 6:09:34 AM permalink
Quote: terapined

Quote: Paigowdan

With this thread, we are looking at the death knell for playing banking in the pit.

Now, the original OP was absolutely 100% correct (he may set his hand as he sees fit, he gets the copies, etc.), but player banking is consistently a nightmare to implement in the casino pit. Even when operating smoothly, it kills hands per hour and table hold/profits, and yes, casino operators may concern themselves with these issues.

Player Banking on PGP occurred when William Walsh ("Billy Woo") converted the poker room version of PGP to casino use, leaving it in as a legacy or vestige feature, like an inflamed appendix, really. Billy Woo is a great guy and did a great thing bringing PGP into the casinos, but banking has been nothing but an albatross on the game.

New variants of PGP, especially commission-free versions, consistently don't have banking, as the only way to get revenue from players banking their own money against players is to charge a commission, which doesn't exist on no commission games.



I like the commission free games.
Will be in Vegas in 7 days
Is there commission free PGP on the strip?
I only play downtown or the strip,
I know Golden Nugget downtown has a commission free game, is there a commission free game on the strip?



TI has Commission Free PGP. $15 min. Their fortune pay tables are worse than most strip properties though.
Ding Dong the Witch is Dead
FleaStiff
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July 18th, 2015 at 6:38:50 AM permalink
Quote: eddiekim52

I was in Las Vegas earlier this week and I was playing Pai Gow Poker at Planet Hollywood.

After the hand was over, I had a very lengthy discussion with the casino supervisor. The casino supervisor flat out told me, "This casino isn't like other casinos. We don't cater to the clientele that likes to bank so our dealers don't know the rules when it comes to player banking."



Probably a very nice casino supervisor and a very smart one. It shows that you have to be "up" on the rules, since few dealers get well trained in nuances or footnotes. there is a decades old joke in vegas about a Pencil who told a dealer "You are on Pai gow Poker, table eight in twenty minutes" the dealer replied, "that is ridiculous, I don't even know how to play the game or where its located". Ofcourse the Pencil replied "You are on Pai gow Powker, table eight in nineteen minutes".

two suggestions: get over it and tip that waitress.
terapined
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July 18th, 2015 at 6:45:09 AM permalink
Quote: Paigowdan

One that I know of, Hooters, is on Trop right by the MGM. But many off-strip properties offer commission-free PGP. The Cannery group, And Stations also: Palace Station ("not really a strip property"), Fiesta Henderson, Boulder station, etc.

The East Side Cannery is on Sahara, actually between Sahara and Tropicana, on Boulder Highway. Good table games place, I recommend you see it.


Strip Properties offer commission-based PGP, as it has a slightly higher house edge, and they are reluctant to change.

The Nugget is fine, as is Hooters and Palace Station. You're there to play.

But you might want to venture out to the East Cannery or to Green Valley Ranch.

I assure you, Vegas is a LOT bigger than the tourists' strip....You'll just be a tourist, otherwise....


I am just a tourist. I love being a tourist. I love tourist traps. Give me a tourist trap freebie (fountains, canals, entertainment) and I'm there.
I've rented cars before to explore off strip in previous trips, this trip staying downtown and plan on busing to the strip.
Downtown, I am somewhat of a gambler due to good odds.
The strip I simply play tourist walking around a lot and doing very little gambling due to weak odds. Typically I will only gamble on the strip to rest from walking and get a drink. No long sessions for me on the strip. Seeing a couple free Cirque shows due to myvegas so looking to maybe kill some time before the show playing PGP on the strip.
Paigowdan
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July 18th, 2015 at 7:18:05 AM permalink
I get it. Then just hit Hooters when near MGM, or Palace when up on Sahara, for the commission-free.

Please know that Strip tourists don't get the "outside properties advantage" unless they travel to them. That's how it works in Vegas, baby....

ALL Strip properties KNOW they have a captive audience.
Beware of all enterprises that require new clothes - Henry David Thoreau. Like Dealers' uniforms - Dan.
eddiekim52
eddiekim52
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July 18th, 2015 at 3:22:18 PM permalink
Quote: FleaStiff

there is a decades old joke in vegas about a Pencil who told a dealer "You are on Pai gow Poker, table eight in twenty minutes" the dealer replied, "that is ridiculous, I don't even know how to play the game or where its located". Ofcourse the Pencil replied "You are on Pai gow Powker, table eight in nineteen minutes".



Sigh. I don't get it.
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