Gambling emotions

My thread about Revel AC kicking my a$$ prompted the question as to how gamblers lose
control of emotions during losing streaks - I would like to open to forum to discussing the wide range of
emotions we go through from euphoria to , dare we acknowledge it "suicidal" thoughts - let's have an open
and honest discussion of our "gambling emotions"

If you went to your doctor or your investment
banker and they got all emotional on you, you'd
think thats the most amateurish thing I've ever seen.

Key word here is 'amateur'.

Quote: EvenBob

If you went to your doctor or your investment
banker and they got all emotional on you, you'd
think thats the most amateurish thing I've ever seen.

Key word here is 'amateur'.

EvenBob - are you saying you do not get emotional while playing?

deleted

Im disappointed in you, suck it up soldier. I do not get emotional. Advantage play is a grind its not fun.Take the emotion out of it.You must set a win loss ratio to prevent you from playing into a big emotional catastrophic loosing streak. Now set your ratio pull your pants back up, And get back on your horse. there is a winning streak around the corner.

Quote: aceofspades

EvenBob - are you saying you do not get emotional while playing?

Most people don't.

Quote: EvenBob

Most people don't.

Baloney.

Most people DO get emotional at one point or another while gambling.

Even the 1000 yard zombie death stare at a slot is a form of emotion: usually a mix of anger and desperation.

I get pretty animated at a craps table, especially during a good roll.

Life without emotion ... what's the point?

Quote: MrV

Baloney.

Most people DO get emotional

Thats because you play craps, where everybody has
to act like a 16 year old girl. Most people I see never
get emotional, they sit there with no expressions at
all. Watch them sometimes.

Quote: aceofspades

EvenBob - are you saying you do not get emotional while playing?

I know I dont. A $3,500 hit? I look like my kitty cat just ran away, not a big deal.

Ken

Very simply put, "Gambling and emotion are mutually exclusive terms". When you gamble during emotional periods, as you stated in the other post, you toss away the rules, stop counting, and lose your edge. This has been shown to increase the House's advantage, and the number of advertising points about the facility itself.

Interesting thread, aceofspades. I have a little trouble with the word 'gambler' in your post. I am not a gambler, so it's difficult for me to think like and know what a gambler feels. I always thought that emotional rush was closely tied to gambling and one of the things a true gambler was after. As AP's in general and even more so for those of us that support ourselves by this means, separating emotions from play is probably the number one requirement. I have been saying for a few years now that this is the hardest aspect to learn involved with this type of career. You can learn strategies from books and now online sources, but learning not just to handle, but to expect large swings, both loses and wins is something you can only learn through experience. Nearly a decade into my blackjack AP career, I still see this as an area of weakness that I am trying to improve on.

I will share a couple of my personal situations and issues of the past year. For the most part short term results, good or bad don't faze me much. I have never gone on tilt, as the poker guys say, at the blackjack tables during a losing period. I only have a small percent of my total bankroll with me at any one time, so there is no chance of a devastating loss of massive proportions. We accept losses, even losses of several hundred units and move on, continuing the grind. The only short term issue I have had have been after what I consider a massive win. Last year, I had a session where I won just over 20 grand on a single shoe of 6 deck blackjack. To put the size of this win in perspective, I am only a mid-level green to mid black player, so this 15-minute win was just about a quarter of my average yearly earnings. Anyway, this win did cause my emotions to run wild a bit. Heart racing a mile a minute, thoughts flying even faster. I just couldn't seem to regain my composure and suspect my concentration level wouldn't have been very good going forward, so I just didn't feel comfortable continuing to play that day. On the surface this don't seem like a big issue, but it is really bigger than it seems. At the end of the year, all of these wins and losses smooth out. Even bigger wins and losses, and in the end, your results will be a direct result of time played, so being forced to miss or cut short playing opportunities because you can't handle the mental and emotional aspects is a huge negative. One that a serious player MUST overcome to succeed. I jokingly have said, I hope with a few more 20+ grand winning sessions, I will get better at this.

Issue #2 for me involves losing. Not a single session or even day loss. I don't seem to have any issue re-focusing and moving forward in that regard. But extended periods of losing do tend to get to me a bit. I have encountered 6 month losing periods in each of the last 2 years (while still having successful years). I am not talking about every session or day being a losing one, but rather playing 40-50 thousand rounds with negative results. Obviously many more losing days and sessions in that mix. That kind of losing, day after day, week after week, month after month can really play with your mind. You question what you are doing. Wonder if you are making mistakes that you don't recognize. Wonder if you are being cheated, when you are not. And even question the basic math and everything that you KNOW to be true. Again, you can learn about variance and the swings that can occur, but no book or other source can really prepare you for such an experience. It is something you have to go through. I like to think that each time I experience such a situation, especially a situation dealing with emotions, better prepares me for the next time. I like to think that, but can't say for sure yet that it is so.

Quote: kewlj

separating emotions from play is probably the number one requirement. .

Concentration and good judgment are impossible
when you're feeling emotions. Anger, excitement,
intense worry, anxiousness, any of them destroy
the ability to concentrate.

This is easy to test. Next time you get angry or are
feeling any strong emotion, try reading something
and see if you can follow it. You'll find you can't,
it will seem like jibberish. Now imagine trying to
concentrate on your play in the casino. Your average
player has no plan, he has no game. It doesn't
matter how emotional he gets. It will destroy an AP.

Quote: EvenBob

Concentration and good judgment are impossible
when you're feeling emotions. Anger, excitement,
intense worry, anxiousness, any of them destroy
the ability to concentrate.

This is easy to test. Next time you get angry or are
feeling any strong emotion, try reading something
and see if you can follow it. You'll find you can't,
it will seem like jibberish. Now imagine trying to
concentrate on your play in the casino. Your average
player has no plan, he has no game. It doesn't
matter how emotional he gets. It will destroy an AP.

I think most players do feel emotions. Not necessarily worry or anger, but I think if you walk through a pit you will see a great deal of varying emotions on the tables. Also, it can be part of a cover. I was impressed by WongBo's recent posts about how he will sometimes drink heavily while counting as he has so much experience that he is comfortable doing this. That can be very valuable as how many clueless floor supervisors are going to suspect a "drunk" who keeps placing large random bets to be a counter?

I can see why an AP at a BJ table would want to be stoic, but otherwise why not let it all hang out?

For me gambling is recreational, fun, entertaining.

If I want to be serious, I have a job where I do that every work day.

For me, gambling is just for sh*ts and giggles.

Sure, winning is nice, but I often lose and frankly I don't really give a damn, as long as I have fun.

It's like exotic cars, high end audio, or international travel: just another available choice along the midway.

So go along all stone faced, if that's the way you want to play it.

Me, I'd rather smile.

Everyone who says they have no emotions while gambling is either lying, or has some serious psychological problems.

You should have emotions while doing pretty much everything. Maybe you don't outwardly show them verbally or with body language (which I still doubt), but there must be something going on in your brain while you're playing at least at some points.

I usually don't get "emotional" while I drive, or while I'm at work, but occasionally something will happen that will make me either happy, angry, sad, etc. Why? Because I'm a human being.

I'm much more talkative while I'm winning then when I lose hand after hand after hand. Why? Because it's more fun to win than lose. And for me, being "stoic" isn't fun.

Quote: FinsRule

Everyone who says they have no emotions while gambling is either lying, or has some serious psychological problems.

I do not go to casinos for fun, I go there to take their money. I do have emotions I am human. however they get checked at the door. The right frame of mind is crucial to my success.

I gamble for fun. I have a budget. If I lose the budget, I'm disappointed but if I break even or win, then I consider it a victory and I'm happy. So my emotional range goes from disappointment to awesome. I tend to like the awesome.

Quote: rainman

I do not go to casinos for fun, I go there to take their money. I do have emotions I am human. however they get checked at the door. The right frame of mind is crucial to my success.

So if your emotions get checked at the door, your frame of mind is no different whether you win or lose?

Re-reading the OP, I cannot tell if he is only talking about emotions during losing streaks, or in general. If he is just referring about staying calm during a losing streak, then for sure it is possible.

But I'll still stand by the fact that no matter how "stoic" you are, if your brain was being scanned while gambling, you would be able to see a change between someone who is losing, and that same person winning.

If you're a VP AP and you hit a royal, I'd hope you would have some enjoyment from that...

I would think the emotions of an AP playing 1,000 hours a year would be quite different from those of a gambler trying to make a quick hit on a weekend. I'm glad I'm not a gambler.

Hell, the emotions are the reason I gamble! I make no apologies for that; if it wasn't fun, I wouldn't do it. I can make a hell of a lot more by going to work instead of taking a day off. And without any risk, either.

That moment right before the cards are revealed... as the dice are thrown... as the wheel slows, as the reels spin... that moment represents potential. And that potential is pure endorphin rush. I play for that feeling. I'm glad I only like it, instead of being addicted to it.

To be fair, when work is going well I get one hell of a high from that, too. But it can be unpredictable in its delivery of the rush; with gambling, it's on a rhythm: the cards are dealt at a certain pace, the dice thrown, the wheel spun. There's something about that that makes it more of a choice, rather than something that I have less control over. I didn't really think about that until now, I'll give it some time.

Quote: MrV

Baloney.

Most people DO get emotional at one point or another while gambling.

Even the 1000 yard zombie death stare at a slot is a form of emotion: usually a mix of anger and desperation.

I get pretty animated at a craps table, especially during a good roll.

Life without emotion ... what's the point?

As The Fonz would say "Exactamundo!!!"

Quote: kewlj

Interesting thread, aceofspades. I have a little trouble with the word 'gambler' in your post.

Well I should have termed it "gambling" emotions as, even if we are AP's, the colloquial term for what we are doing is "gambling"

Quote: kewlj

Interesting thread, aceofspades. I have a little trouble with the word 'gambler' in your post.

The thread is titled "gambling" emotions as, even if we are AP's, the colloquial term for what we are doing is "gambling"

Almost everyone gets emotional, especially if you are getting screwed left and right, and if a few drinks are involved. Sure I gamble to win, but also to have fun. If I wanted to be stoic I would have stayed at work. I was just in vegas last month for a week and most people have emotion when gambling that I observed.

Quote: Mosca

Hell, the emotions are the reason I gamble! I make no apologies for that; if it wasn't fun, I wouldn't do it. I can make a hell of a lot more by going to work instead of taking a day off. And without any risk, either.

That moment right before the cards are revealed... as the dice are thrown... as the wheel slows, as the reels spin... that moment represents potential. And that potential is pure endorphin rush. I play for that feeling. I'm glad I only like it, instead of being addicted to it.

To be fair, when work is going well I get one hell of a high from that, too. But it can be unpredictable in its delivery of the rush; with gambling, it's on a rhythm: the cards are dealt at a certain pace, the dice thrown, the wheel spun. There's something about that that makes it more of a choice, rather than something that I have less control over. I didn't really think about that until now, I'll give it some time.

absolutely agree!

Quote: FinsRule

So if your emotions get checked at the door, your frame of mind is no different whether you win or lose?

This is correct, you see I have set a win/loss ratio before ever setting foot in the casino door. I have two possible outcomes Im going to win (x) or lose (x) its the same two possible outcomes everytime. So any events such as winning a big hand or loosing a big hand are simply repetative events I have seen many times over and over on my way to winning (x) or loosing (X). no excitement there. I use this to put food on the table its work for me. The win loss in any one given session is never significant enough to cause a big stir its the yearly totals that may.

Quote: rainman

This is correct, you see I have set a win/loss ratio before ever setting foot in the casino door.

You have a goal, same as me. Its like working,
your goal is to complete your shift. No biggie,
no emotion, just punch out and go home. To
me, if you get all excited and emotional in the
casino, you're just playing into the casinos
hands. They want you all hot and bothered,
its easier to separate you from your money.

Quote: EvenBob

You have a goal, same as me. Its like working,
your goal is to complete your shift. No biggie,
no emotion, just punch out and go home. To
me, if you get all excited and emotional in the
casino, you're just playing into the casinos
hands. They want you all hot and bothered,
its easier to separate you from your money.

Except when you can get emotional and still act rationally, I guess.

Quote: Mosca

Except when you can get emotional and still act rationally, I guess.

How many people do that. I think anger is the
most destructive emotion in a casino. It blinds
people and makes them act like idiots. Keep
digging in those pockets and keep slamming
down the cash, that'll show em. Meanwhile
the dealer is silently laughing to himself. I've
seen it a hundred times.

Quote: EvenBob

How many people do that. I think anger is the
most destructive emotion in a casino. It blinds
people and makes them act like idiots. Keep
digging in those pockets and keep slamming
down the cash, that'll show em. Meanwhile
the dealer is silently laughing to himself. I've
seen it a hundred times.

I suppose that is the important lesson I should learn - if things are going badly, get out - take the smaller hit instead of playing with the emotional charge

Quote: aceofspades

I suppose that is the important lesson I should learn - if things are going badly, get out - take the smaller hit instead of playing with the emotional charge

Now hearing that may get me all emotional. I think there may be a big comeback in the aceofspades future just yet.
consider a win loss ratio.

Quote: rainman

Now hearing that may get me all emotional. I think there may be a big comeback in the aceofspades future just yet.
consider a win loss ratio.

Well, here is my breakdown

2010: plus $45k
2011: minus$18k

2012: March plus$5k
2012: April plus$10k
2012: May minus $17k


all in all - not bad - but, it feels horrific!!!

Quote: aceofspades

Well, here is my breakdown

2010: plus $45k
2011: minus$18k

2012: March plus$5k
2012: April plus$10k
2012: May minus $17k


all in all - not bad - but, it feels horrific!!!

I think perhaps you are misunderstanding what I mean bye win loss ratio. When I go to the casino I have set limits of how much I am willing to lose in accordance with the amount im trying to gain. For example lets say I have 1k thats my loss limit if i lose it game over Im going home no ifs ands or buts. Likewise my win will be 1k when I hit that mark im going home no ifs ands or buts. If you have no limits you have no discipline .You dont have to cap your win amount as I do but you must set your loss number and stick to it This would have prevented your big loss.

Quote: rainman

I think perhaps you are misunderstanding what I mean bye win loss ratio. When I go to the casino I have set limits of how much I am willing to lose in accordance with the amount im trying to gain. For example lets say I have 1k thats my loss limit if i lose it game over Im going home no ifs ands or buts. Likewise my win will be 1k when I hit that mark im going home no ifs ands or buts. If you have no limits you have no discipline .You dont have to cap your win amount as I do but you must set your loss number and stick to it This would have prevented your big loss.

Would you leave in the middle of a positive shoe?

Quote: rainman

I think perhaps you are misunderstanding what I mean bye win loss ratio. When I go to the casino I have set limits of how much I am willing to lose in accordance with the amount im trying to gain. For example lets say I have 1k thats my loss limit if i lose it game over Im going home no ifs ands or buts. Likewise my win will be 1k when I hit that mark im going home no ifs ands or buts. If you have no limits you have no discipline .You dont have to cap your win amount as I do but you must set your loss number and stick to it This would have prevented your big loss.

Rainman - I completely understood your statement - I was merely throwing this into the mix :)

Quote: 1BB

Would you leave in the middle of a positive shoe?

Excellent question!! Since there is really no such thing as a 'session', if you are a true AP you should take advantage of every +EV opportunity. Is the $100 in your bank account really any different from the $100 in your wallet?
If you are not an AP then it is different. The casual gambler has determined how much they can afford to lose. (Or should have!)

Quote: 1BB

Would you leave in the middle of a positive shoe?

Yes. A positive shoe does not mean you are going to win, leaving when your up does. However at times I do make exceptions but only if I am running super well and the count is extremely favorable. Also leaving during a positive shoe is good camouflage.

Quote: SOOPOO

Excellent question!! Since there is really no such thing as a 'session', if you are a true AP you should take advantage of every +EV opportunity. Is the $100 in your bank account really any different from the $100 in your wallet?
If you are not an AP then it is different. The casual gambler has determined how much they can afford to lose. (Or should have!)

I respectfully disagree. I can leave during a favorable shoe Its not as if I will never see another. If you dont leave when your up your gonna leave when your down.

Quote: rainman

I respectfully disagree. I can leave during a favorable shoe Its not as if I will never see another. If you dont leave when your up your gonna leave when your down.

"Leave" is just a term that means you are taking a temporal break before your next hand. If the shoe is in your favor, that is better than it will be when you start a new shoe on your next visit. By leaving you are by definition giving up a positive EV opportunity for a negative one. If you are a true AP, the more hours you play the more you will make. I don't really understand the concept of limiting your upside, if you are playing with an advantage. If you are a casual gambler playing with the usual disadvantage I could understand your thinking. (Except for the 'camouflage' comment)

Quote: EvenBob

How many people do that. I think anger is the
most destructive emotion in a casino. It blinds
people and makes them act like idiots. Keep
digging in those pockets and keep slamming
down the cash, that'll show em. Meanwhile
the dealer is silently laughing to himself. I've
seen it a hundred times.

Yeah, I see these guys tossing around huge numbers, tens of thousands of dollars. That would freak me out. I take $500 a session; if we go for 2 days, that's usually 3 sessions, so if I lose EVERYTHING I'm out $1500. It's not hard to get emotional, yet keep it real, at realistic numbers.

Quote: SOOPOO

"Leave" is just a term that means you are taking a temporal break before your next hand. If the shoe is in your favor, that is better than it will be when you start a new shoe on your next visit. By leaving you are by definition giving up a positive EV opportunity for a negative one. If you are a true AP, the more hours you play the more you will make. I don't really understand the concept of limiting your upside, if you are playing with an advantage. If you are a casual gambler playing with the usual disadvantage I could understand your thinking. (Except for the 'camouflage' comment)

It seem lately for me that even in +EV situations - the cards are going to the dealer and not me :(

Quote: rainman

For example lets say I have 1k thats my loss limit if i lose it game over Im going home no ifs ands or buts. Likewise my win will be 1k when I hit that mark im going home no ifs ands or buts. If you have no limits you have no discipline.

Quote: rainman

However at times I do make exceptions but only if I am running super well and the count is extremely favorable.

+1 Funny

Quote: JB

Quote: rainman

For example lets say I have 1k thats my loss limit if i lose it game over Im going home no ifs ands or buts. Likewise my win will be 1k when I hit that mark im going home no ifs ands or buts. If you have no limits you have no discipline.

Quote: rainman

However at times I do make exceptions but only if I am running super well and the count is extremely favorable.

+1 Funny

+2

Quote: SOOPOO

If you are a true AP, the more hours you play the more you will make. I don't really understand the concept of limiting your upside,

Its a psychological advantage. Leaving while ahead keeps
you mentally 'up' for the next session. I used to get lambasted
on the BJ forums for playing this way. The mathboyz would
always scream that you have to play play play, nothing else
mattered. Never dismiss the power of leaving a winner, however.
BJ is a mental game, after all.

Quote: aceofspades

Quote: JB

Quote: rainman

For example lets say I have 1k thats my loss limit if i lose it game over Im going home no ifs ands or buts. Likewise my win will be 1k when I hit that mark im going home no ifs ands or buts. If you have no limits you have no discipline.

Quote: rainman

However at times I do make exceptions but only if I am running super well and the count is extremely favorable.

+1 Funny

+2

Easy kids 99.9% of the time I adhere to the program.

Quote: EvenBob

You have a goal, same as me. Its like working,
your goal is to complete your shift.

Yuck, how boring. You have a real job for working, with better EV and far better benefits. Grinding out a sliver of a percentage at a BJ table is your idea of a good time? If you're gambling in a casino for any reason other than "you have fun gambling", take a long look in the mirror. And maybe seek help.

Granted, I go to casinos a lot for business, but when I'm there gambling, why would I intentionally not want to have fun? If I want to make money, I have a job for that (and my job is fun too).

Edited to add:
I submit that, unless a person is a unique combination of genius and antisocial, the average person can make more money in a corporate environment, and with little-to-zero income variance, than they can by seeking out and exploiting +EV plays. Many former APers are now consultants to casino corporations, but you never hear of former gaming consultants becoming full-time APs. There's a reason for that.

Quote: SOOPOO

"Leave" is just a term that means you are taking a temporal break before your next hand. If the shoe is in your favor, that is better than it will be when you start a new shoe on your next visit. By leaving you are by definition giving up a positive EV opportunity for a negative one. If you are a true AP, the more hours you play the more you will make. I don't really understand the concept of limiting your upside, if you are playing with an advantage. If you are a casual gambler playing with the usual disadvantage I could understand your thinking. (Except for the 'camouflage' comment)

Well I didnt eat all my steak yesterday left some on the plate. Im not worried though there is more at the store. What do I get for all the times I reached my goal and left in a negative shoe? Wait I know I get the 1k in my pocket.

Quote: MathExtremist

I submit that, unless a person is a unique combination of genius and antisocial, the average person can make more money in a corporate environment, and with little-to-zero income variance, than they can by seeking out and exploiting +EV plays. Many former APers are now consultants to casino corporations, but you never hear of former gaming consultants becoming full-time APs. There's a reason for that.

One of the dealers I was playing with said he gave up being an AP to work in the casinos - he said that the small per hour advantage he had did not equal a steady paycheck, medical benefits, and steady money into his retirement account.

Quote: rainman

Well I didnt eat all my steak yesterday left some on the plate. Im not worried though there is more at the store. What do I get for all the times I reached my goal and left in a negative shoe? Wait I know I get the 1k in my pocket.

Well... now officially beating a dead horse... I AGREE with you that leaving during a negative shoe makes sense.... The scenario we were discussing was leaving a positive shoe...