Money on Casino Floor
This immediately caused an ethical quandary.
It should - if you are ethically challenged.
Quote: MrVLast weekend I found a $100 bill on the casino floor, in front of the cashier.
This immediately caused an ethical quandary.
I mistakenly left $50 at the Cage a few weeks back after cashing some chips. I had no idea that I left the money there. I came back to cash some more chips an hour later and the cashier said "You are lucky that I am honest, I wasn't sure if you left this as a tip" I said "Thanks, it was not a tip", I had barely broken even throughout the session. I took my $50 back and gave her a $5 tip.
Quote: MrVLast weekend I found a $100 bill on the casino floor, in front of the cashier.
This immediately caused an ethical quandary.
A few years ago at the racetrack, my dad and I found about $50 credit on a wagering terminal. It was crowded that day, but my dad said that he saw a guy with a hat leave the machine, and we needed to return the money to him.
I told him that there were 10,000 people at the track, and we would never find this guy. So all day, we are wandering around the track and my dad keeps looking. Finally after race 10, my dad says "That's him, I found him" He runs up to him and says "Excuse me, did you leave about $50 in a machine in the beginning of the day?" The guy says "yeah, but I just hit the trifecta for $600, so you keep it" After a polite refusal, the guy insisted and my dad got the benefit of doing the right thing, and keeping the money.
I think that's where I draw my ethical line. If I can find the guy whose money it is, I'll give it back to him, but if I find a little bit of money on the ground, I'm taking it. When I worked at Toys R Us, people would come to ther service desk and say "Oh, I found this five dollar bill on the ground, here" And no one ever ever ever came back to say "I lost a $5 bill, did someone turn it in?" And what would happen to all that money, we sent it to corporate a few times a year.
A casino is a different environment because everything is videotaped so it's possible to track down people. But any other place, as long as we're not talking hundreds of dollars, just keep the money.
Quote: MathExtremistYou can get in some trouble if you find chips, tickets or currency in a casino and don't turn it over to the cage.
Couple years ago, I found a $100 Bellagio chip on the floor of Planet Hollywood. No way PH could claim it was theirs. As with many casinos, PH's carpeting is patterned and disguises trash or chips left behind. In fact, I walked right over it without really seeing it till I was a few steps away then it occurred to me and I looked back. Problem was, it was 8 inches from a guy's foot playing that slot machine. I shuffled back over and kicked it a few feet away so I could pick it up without slot-guy noticing, and I hightailed it outta there before John Quinones and his What Would You Do? camera crew could swoop in for a Q & A session.
And I sleep just fine at night, thankyouverymuch.
I got in the habit of always checking the floor under the poker table when I first sit down. There's enough forgotten chips amid the empty water bottles to make it worthwhile.
I thought briefly about what to do but decided to call security and handed it to them.
Finding and cashing a ticket would be further step towards illegality in my view. Money is one thing, but presenting a ticket to the cashier for redemption in the knowledge that it did not belong to me, would certainly be illegal.
What if it was a black $100 chip. Would that make any difference?
Quote: JuyemuraWhat if you see someone drop a chip? They don't notice that they dropped it. Do you take the chip or give it back to them?
What if it was a black $100 chip. Would that make any difference?
I see people drop chips all the time, especially older people. Always give it back to them, and if they are elderly I will bend over and pick it up for them.
every single one of them goes right into my pocket.
no ethical quandary.
i am sleeping like a baby.
Quote: IbeatyouracesNot in Michigan. Found money does NOT belong to the casino. This doesn't mean it belongs to the finder either.
Why is found money in casino belong to the casino? If the found money is donated to the charity, ok but they will keep it. Why do they have any more ownership of found money in casino than the person who finds it?
They are legally "sovereign nations."
I've no clue what the Tribal Laws of this tribe would say about this issue.
So, rather than worry about it, I kept it.
What can they do, scalp me? Tie me to an anthill?
Personally, I would turn it in. Though I confess that years ago I did a bad thing.
I was with my sister and her husband and we sat down at a slot machine. I put in $100 when I noticed the machine next to us had $350 credits. We waited about twenty minutes... no one showed up. So we played it. But I was prepared to reach into my wallet and pay back the person if they showed up.
That was BEFORE I knew the law. If it happened today I would notify a floor person.
Quote: AlanMendelsonThat was BEFORE I knew the law. If it happened today I would notify a floor person.
Let's say that instead of a casino, you are in McDonalds, and you see find $100 on an empty seat at a table.
Or, you are in Wal-Mart and find it on the floor.
What then?
if i saw someone drop some money or chips i would inform them,
otherwise, without exception, it goes in my pocket.
this includes churches, schools, and nursing homes.
i look at it like this:
Quote: JuyemuraWhat if you see someone drop a chip? They don't notice that they dropped it. Do you take the chip or give it back to them?
Taking the chip in that situation is not even a dark-gray area, it's outright stealing.
On the other hand, if it's not reasonably possible to return found property to its rightful owner (not the casino or the state), that's a gray area.
Mark
it has gone right into the nearest table rack.
I might give a chip to another player if they are short for a wager,
but i would NEVER turn one over to a casino employee.
If I see someone drop money or chips I always pick it up and give it back to them. In a WalMart or McDonalds I act exactly the same way; if I see it drop I give it back, but if it has been abandoned it's mine.
I once found a ring on the floor next to a slot machine. It didn't look expensive but it had a tiny stone in it and looked like it might have meant something to someone so I gave it to a security guard. I don't know if it was ever claimed but to this day I can't imagine how it could have fallen off someone's hand to have ended up on the floor.
Once I found a tri-color gold wedding band in the bathroom of the hotel room at Sam's Town in Tunica. It was stuck way in the corner under the sink vanity. I tried to give it to the front desk, asking if they could contact the person who had the room before us but they told me they couldn't do that and to just keep the ring. I tried to give it to the security guard and he told me to keep it. So I kept it.
I made up a story about the ring, that a couple was in the room arguing because the husband had gambled away their life savings and the wife tore the ring off her finger and flung it, yelling, "I want a divorce!"
I wore it as my everyday wedding ring for about 10 years. After my husband died and I took my rings off I kept that ring in a drawer for a few years. It wasn't heavy enough to be worth selling for the gold and I had no-one to give it to so last year I decided to let it go full circle, as it were. I brought it back to Sam's Town. I wasn't staying at their hotel so in the early morning when the slot floor was empty I carefully placed it on the floor next to my favorite machine and walked away and didn't look back. I hope whoever found it did the "unethical thing" and kept it.
We were at CircusCircus-Reno a few years back...and we were standing in line to get a players card...and my granma looked down and seen a $100 bill on the ground..so immediately she picked it up, and just so happened a "change cart" was being pushed around, so she figured it OBVIOUSLY came from there, so she told the guy pushing it "I think you dropped this." He replied "No, I don't keep $100 bills on me." She said "Well, then here." and he refused to take it and said KEEP IT...so she did!
Another story on the subject of rings...my ex-wife and I have the stupidity of taking our rings off whenever we wash our hands (don't ask me why, weird habit) Well apparently she took off her engagement ring in a jack-in-the-box bathroom, and didn't realize she had not put it BACK ON until after we left (probably like less than a mile down the road) but of course, it was G-O-N-E...
Quote:... my ex-wife and I have the stupidity of taking our rings off whenever we wash our hands
That was probably the case with the wedding ring I found, but the story I made up sounds better. :)
Quote: MathExtremistEthical, perhaps, but I think the law is clear. Found money in a casino belongs to the casino absent proof of ownership to the contrary. If the casino were smart, they'd use tape to determine whose cash it was, but in any event it's not yours. You can get in some trouble if you find chips, tickets or currency in a casino and don't turn it over to the cage.
I know that this is an old thread, but I just listened to the two GWAE's with Bob N. (one of them was linked in another thread) and it seems that this a common misconception. I think that there was a similar discussion in another more recent thread, but I can't find it.
Anyway, according to Bob N, abandoned money, credits, chips, etc is the property of the person who found it, as long as they reasonably believed that it was abandoned (if someone steps away for a minute, that does not count as abandoned)
These are both definitely worth listening to, IMO (whether you are an AP or not -- the little old lady who got a $600,000 settlement from the casino after finding a nickel on the floor and being detained was not an AP)
http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=p-AgsmibTrE
http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=ttFqmHltmw8
If you don't want to listen to all of both interviews, the 2nd link, about 17:40 in, is where Bob D. asks the question and Bob N. answers it. He talks about one specific case (the one I mentioned above) for a couple of minutes and then goes into more general details and the exact law.
According to Bob N:
Quote:Here's the law: Abandoned property on private property does not becomes the property of the owner of the private property, but the property of the finder
Quote: AxiomOfChoiceI know that this is an old thread, but I just listened to the two GWAE's with Bob N. (one of them was linked in another thread) and it seems that this a common misconception. I think that there was a similar discussion in another more recent thread, but I can't find it.
Anyway, according to Bob N, abandoned money, credits, chips, etc is the property of the person who found it, as long as they reasonably believed that it was abandoned (if someone steps away for a minute, that does not count as abandoned)
These are both definitely worth listening to, IMO (whether you are an AP or not -- the little old lady who got a $600,000 settlement from the casino after finding a nickel on the floor and being detained was not an AP)
http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=p-AgsmibTrE
http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=ttFqmHltmw8
If you don't want to listen to all of both interviews, the 2nd link, about 17:40 in, is where Bob D. asks the question and Bob N. answers it. He talks about one specific case (the one I mentioned above) for a couple of minutes and then goes into more general details and the exact law.
According to Bob N:Quote:Here's the law: Abandoned property on private property does not becomes the property of the owner of the private property, but the property of the finder
the above is possible correct in Nevada but in PA it is not. There are no finders keepers laws in PA casinos. There are many stories where people get arrested for picking up money. I also believe once you are arrested for it in PA you are banned from all PA casinos.
The point is made that you technically picking up $100 in a Walmart without trying to find the correct owner is legally no different than stealing it from him.
But as a practical matter it is not enforced at Walmart. Ethically, if you see an old man wandering around looking at the floor you should ask him.
But since casinos have the power to wind back through time, and see who dropped the banknote, they do enforce the law.
If you find money on the floor you have to turn it in. The money belongs to the patron and failing that, the money gets paid over to the NGC and a portion gets kept by the property. A grace period is allowed for the original owner to be found or to come forward. I believe it is 30 or 60 days but I'm not sure. If you pick up money from the ground and walk away with it, someone makes a claim to that money and Surveillance finds you, then you are guilty of a crime.
At a casino I used to work at in Vegas a man had dropped a $100 bill. The bill came to rest on the floor, about 6 feet away from his position and about 15 feet in front of the Security Desk on the property. A floor supervisor walked past the bill, picked it up and continued walking. The man made a claim with security that he thought he had dropped a bill. Surveillance reviewed the footage and found the floor person picking up the money. She was confronted and immediately fired. She was also convicted of a crime. Her excuse was that she was merely holding the money until her next break where she would have returned the money to Security. The rules, especially for employees are very clear. If you find money on the floor or anywhere else you have to IMMEDIATELY turn the money in to Security. What made this worse was that she was literally 15 feet away from the podium........
Abandoned credits in a slot machine is slightly more complicated. When can abandoned money be "reasonably" believed to be "abandoned"? If a person goes to the bathroom, leaves $100 in a slot and moves more than 1 bank away (which is the VERY vague guideline), does that mean the person abandoned the money? No, it does not but the laws are not very clear where this is concerned. It is completely opent o interpretation, so much so that 6 employees in the Surveillance room got into a heated debate for 3 hours with 4 different points of view......Shows you how much we actually have to do right :)
You heard it here first.
Quote: RSIn a casino and you find money....pick it up and give it to an employee as a tip, preferably the ones who never get tips (the ones who vacuum, or clean the ashtrays, pick up trash, etc.).
If you see someone drop money, casino setting or not, you're an ***hole if you don't return it.
+1.
Quote: JuyemuraWhat if you see someone drop a chip? They don't notice that they dropped it. Do you take the chip or give it back to them?
What if it was a black $100 chip. Would that make any difference?
I was walking through the blackjack pit one night in Revel and gave strategy advice to a drunk kid in a wheelchair. I kept count and helped him win a few hundred bucks. Over the course of 2 shoes, he gave me 80 dollars for my help. He and his friend soon left to play craps, but I noticed he dropped a green chip. Without second thought , I gave it back to him. He gave me 10 dollars for my kindness. I'm pretty sure that guy thinks I'm a God now.
With that said, I would have gave THIS guy a black chip back. Others no chance.
Quote: djatcSince there is an eye in the sky everywhere at a casino I never pick up money. Usually I don't see credits on a slot machine and on accident cashout whatever was on there if I'm wonging. I saw a $20 on the floor once next to a video poker machine and quickly informed the pit boss, to maybe get something nice out of it but I didn't get anything :(
You are absolutely right, it isn't worth getting burned over!
Quote: TomspurI will confess that I did not listen to the interview but here is how it works in NV.
If you find money on the floor you have to turn it in. The money belongs to the patron and failing that, the money gets paid over to the NGC and a portion gets kept by the property. A grace period is allowed for the original owner to be found or to come forward. I believe it is 30 or 60 days but I'm not sure. If you pick up money from the ground and walk away with it, someone makes a claim to that money and Surveillance finds you, then you are guilty of a crime.
At a casino I used to work at in Vegas a man had dropped a $100 bill. The bill came to rest on the floor, about 6 feet away from his position and about 15 feet in front of the Security Desk on the property. A floor supervisor walked past the bill, picked it up and continued walking. The man made a claim with security that he thought he had dropped a bill. Surveillance reviewed the footage and found the floor person picking up the money. She was confronted and immediately fired. She was also convicted of a crime. Her excuse was that she was merely holding the money until her next break where she would have returned the money to Security. The rules, especially for employees are very clear. If you find money on the floor or anywhere else you have to IMMEDIATELY turn the money in to Security. What made this worse was that she was literally 15 feet away from the podium........
Abandoned credits in a slot machine is slightly more complicated. When can abandoned money be "reasonably" believed to be "abandoned"? If a person goes to the bathroom, leaves $100 in a slot and moves more than 1 bank away (which is the VERY vague guideline), does that mean the person abandoned the money? No, it does not but the laws are not very clear where this is concerned. It is completely opent o interpretation, so much so that 6 employees in the Surveillance room got into a heated debate for 3 hours with 4 different points of view......Shows you how much we actually have to do right :)
That is not what Bob N. says. Again:
Quote:Here's the law: Abandoned property on private property does not becomes the property of the owner of the private property, but the property of the finder
Perhaps I should have made my point more clear. There is a difference between abandoned money and found money. As far as the NGC is concerned, any money found has to be returned to the house, which in turn will be kept for a period of time, thereafter redsitributed between the NGC and the property in question. The NGC has a mandate to only use that money for a specific project, one which I cannot remember now. I was trying to download the statute from the NGC website but, for soe reason here in Korea, none of those pages will open.
The tricky bit here is to understand the definition of "abandoned" and what each casino considers the abandonement of said instruments.
RS Mo. 313.832.
...
2. All moneys, coin, and currency found in close proximity of wagers, or of records of wagers are presumed forfeited. The burden of proof is upon the claimant of the property to rebut this presumption.
3. Subsections 1 and 2 of this section do not apply if the act or omission which would give rise to the forfeiture was committed or omitted without the owner's knowledge or consent.
If you are scatterbrained enough to leave money in a machine, does that mean you did it without knowledge?? lol
But it looks like it is forfeited to the casino if the rightful owner isn't found.
Quote: Tomspur....and again, please define "abandoned" in such a way that it is pratcially implementable on a daily basis inside of a casino.
Perhaps I should have made my point more clear. There is a difference between abandoned money and found money. As far as the NGC is concerned, any money found has to be returned to the house, which in turn will be kept for a period of time, thereafter redsitributed between the NGC and the property in question. The NGC has a mandate to only use that money for a specific project, one which I cannot remember now. I was trying to download the statute from the NGC website but, for soe reason here in Korea, none of those pages will open.
The tricky bit here is to understand the definition of "abandoned" and what each casino considers the abandonement of said instruments.
It doesn't matter what the casino considers the abandonment of said instruments, nor does the NGC's opinion make a difference. It only matters what the law says.
You should listen to the link that I provided. Bob N. explains it very clearly.
Quote: AxiomOfChoiceIt doesn't matter what the casino considers the abandonment of said instruments, nor does the NGC's opinion make a difference. It only matters what the law says.
You should listen to the link that I provided. Bob N. explains it very clearly.
I think you and I have had a round and round on this subject before with similar results.
I will listen to the link tonight when I get home, thanks for posting.
Quote: AxiomOfChoiceIt doesn't matter what the casino considers the abandonment of said instruments, nor does the NGC's opinion make a difference. It only matters what the law says.
You should listen to the link that I provided. Bob N. explains it very clearly.
Just as a mattr of interest, isn't the NGC the state agency who writes and upholds the gaming laws for the state? Does that not mean directly that the NGC has a say?
I don't know much about where laws come from. I may be completely wrong.
Quote: TomspurI think you and I have had a round and round on this subject before with similar results.
I will listen to the link tonight when I get home, thanks for posting.
I've never talked about this subject before. I just assumed that the "common wisdom" around here was correct, until I heard what Bob had to say on the matter.
Quote: AxiomOfChoiceI've never talked about this subject before. I just assumed that the "common wisdom" around here was correct, until I heard what Bob had to say on the matter.
Perhaps I'm thinking of another person or I'm becoming senile....both very real possibilities
I found a $100 bill at an Indian casino in Fresno, CA. I was ethical enough to wait around for a few minutes to see if might belong to someone, but I was not ethical enough to hand it over to casino management. In other words, I'm a criminal.
Speaking of criminal: on 3 different occasions, I have found small bags of marijuana on the sidewalk.
