Bets in excess of posted maximum

I was playing Blackjack yesterday at the Cosmopolitan and was on a run. Table max was $5k, I inadvertently put out a stack of $7k. I got blackjack and the dealer paid me $10,500. Minutes later three thugs in black and a suit approached me at the table. The suit tells me I owe the casino $3000 because the excess bet over $5k was never approved. I argued for awhile, but feeling the physical intimidation reluctantly gave him three yellow chips. Does the casino have the legal right to rescind the excess bet after the outcome is known? Had I lost, I can't imagine they'd have been as anxious to let me know I had bet too much and return my $2k excess.

Legal right? I've never heard of those inside of casinos. They can do whatever they want if you agree to it. If you had refused to hand over the chips, and stood your ground, you might have had a case that no lawyer would take.

Bottom less, yes. They are within their rights to demand their money back. If you had bet $7,000 and lost, they would have returned the excess $2,000 to you. (Certainly, they may have not been so quick to point it out. Lesson? Pay attention! The casino will correct errors in your favor, as you should correct errors made in their's).

I note that the OP was paid 10.5, the correct amount for a 7k wager. I think this concludes the transaction. He should have refused to return the money. Of course he would probably would have been barred, but at least he'd have $3k.

Edit: What if he had lost subsequent hands that brought his stack below $3k? Would they have made him pull cash out of his pocket or given him a bill?

So if the min is $25 and you put out four $5
chips in various places and lose, can you say
you want your money back because you didn't
bet the min? They'll laugh you out of the casino.

Quote: teddys

Legal right? I've never heard of those inside of casinos. They can do whatever they want if you agree to it. If you had refused to hand over the chips, and stood your ground, you might have had a case that no lawyer would take.

Bottom less, yes. They are within their rights to demand their money back. If you had bet $7,000 and lost, they would have returned the excess $2,000 to you. (Certainly, they may have not been so quick to point it out. Lesson? Pay attention! The casino will correct errors in your favor, as you should correct errors made in their's).

Were you counting? If you weren't, the casino was pretty foolish to do it. There is nothing you can do about it now, but my suggestion would be to ensure that the Cosmo never see's a dime. You could also try and contact one of the high ups and inform them of the incident, let them know that you will be taking your business elsewhere...politely off course.

Quote: Ayecarumba

I note that the OP was paid 10.5, the correct amount for a 7k wager. I think this concludes the transaction.

While I get the rationale, any gambler with any experience would know that dealer's do not have the authority to change table limits or to accept a bet over the limit.

Now what somebody has to do is test it at the same casino: Place a bet over the limit, lose, then try to get the overage back a couple hands later.

Quote: DJTeddyBear

While I get the rationale, any gambler with any experience would know that dealer's do not have the authority to change table limits or to accept a bet over the limit.

That is true, but the dealer paid off. As a representative of the casino in the transaction, the dealer should now be on the hook for the overpayment, not the player. If the dealer did not have the juice, they should have called the pit boss right then to make it right.

I can't speak for any other casino, but at least where I work the dealers must break down the bet before resolving (not before dealing) the hand. Win or lose, if the bet exceeds the table max the balance will be returned to the guest. If the dealer were to payout the entire bet on accident we would attempt to recover the money. However, we would be a bit more graceful and would follow up with a meal and most likely a free room as well. If we somehow found out the dealer locked up an entire losing bet greater than the table max then we would also attempt to return the balance.

I've brought this subject up in the past and have seen some goofy things.

Here, its a $3,500 max payout. I have seen $100 on the #17 and $100 on the 17/18 split. The #32 hits and sure as heck, the dealer took BOTH bets. Two spins later (same bets), the #17 hit.....they paid out $3,500 and gave back the other black chip. What a load of s**t !!!

Ken

On a similar note, I was watching 3 card poker yesterday and saw a sad thing. A lady was on fire, playing black action with a red for the dealer on the pairs plus. She hit the straight flush, and before the $4400 and $200 for the dealer was paid out, the Pit Manager came over and said that the dealer can only accept $100 on a bet, as per the casino gaming manual. The woman seemed pissed off about it, but was pretty friendly during the whole thing. She was up about $10k on the table and gave the dealer the second hundred herself. This rule was not posted on the table, but was supposedly in the manual. It hurt to see the floor take the 100 the dealer had pulled out and put it back in the tray.

Quote: winmonkeyspit3

and said that the dealer can only accept $100 on a bet, as per the casino gaming manual.

If casinos hate paying players, they hate paying
dealers more. Casinos hate tips, but tolerate
them because it saves them paying dealers a
decent wage. Steve Wynn hated tips so much
he gave the floor part of the dealer tips so he
wouldn't have to give them a raise. Casinos look
at tips as good money that should be wagered,
not given away. The greedy bastards want every
dime..

In the heat of the moment ...

Sometimes a dealer or boxman will cry out 'accepted up to table max' indicating that stack of chips will be counted in a few moments but the bet is booked ONLY to table max. (Remember, the dice may be in motion at the time or about to be thrown, etc.).

Some casinos pay the correct amount up to table max and pay a flat 1:1 on any excess that was "inadvertent".

Some casinos pay the correct amount on the maximum allowed bet and RETURN any excess whether it is immediately discovered or not.

Now we all know that for players its simple: IF IT LAYS IT PLAYS.
So why not try to hold the casino to that rule. The dealer did not break down the stack and return the excess amount to the player, nor did he "reserve the casino's rights to verify the amount" by calling out "booked to table limit" therefore the dealer booked a bet over table limit under the rule of If It Lays, It Plays. Whether a dealer or only a "suit" is authorized to do this is an internal matter for the casino, the player is entitled to rely upon the dealer being properly trained and properly observant as well as properly supervised. Otherwise the player would have to slow the game down, so I would have called the Gaming Board and since the amount is over 500.00 the casino is REQUIRED by law to make that call upon the player's demand and required to keep that dealer on duty and the chips in plain view until the Gaming Agent arrives. The Gaming Agent is an armed law enforcement officer and has jurisdiction in the matter, he is not some security guard who works for the casino.

Now the question: SHOULD you be such a pain in the ass to a casino since obviously they have three burly guys standing there and they control the cameras etc.

I would have stated your viewpoint, mentioned that the amount is in excess of the statutory 500.00 and told the Floor that he could make the call and you would await the Gaming Agent's arrival and abide by the Gaming Agent's decision OR that since you were at the present time lawfully in possession of the chips, you would simply leave the premises with all the chips in your possession.

From a Chinese forum, this incident is supposed to have happened recently in Sands Macau.

Table limit is HKD250,000 playing Baccarat. After all bets were down and the Bankes's cards had revealed a total of 4, the pit boss found out that the total bet is over the limit by $20,000. After some bureaucracies, the Sands addressed the biggest better (bet $60,000 on the banker) and resolved that: should the banker wins, he will only be paid 40,000; but if the banker losses he will lose the whole $60,000.

It's not a surprise that the player didn't like the arrangement but after some more bureaucracies he finally reluctantly agreed to it (wtf ????) and it turned out that the Player had 8, so it didn't really make any difference. But what the Sands (supposedly)had done is absolutely ridiculous, and I don't see how a player could possibly accept such an arrangement short of having a pistol stuck under his pants.

I do not know the legal position but that is not the point.
This absolutely shows the stupidity of some casinos. The player is playing big amounts around 5k and a very valuable customer for them. For a player with this amount of action, 3k is nothing compared to the value of losing such a player. There was no overpayment by the casino (like the dealer paid on a push) or anything similar. Just that he accidentally bet over the limit and the dealer also did not notice. This is the kind of thing where the casino should use discretion and let it go by. The suit should have come alone and tell the player what happened and tell him that normally he should return the 3k but he decided to let it stay and tell the player if it happens again he would have to return the extra money. Maybe exaggarated a bit that he has to report further above and make a report of what happened etc to his aboves and is a lot of hassle BUT he feels that it is only fair for the player to get paid the full amount.
The value of this approach is a lot more than the 3k and the business lost from a player who feels being cheated of 3k.
It is the basic principle that a lot of casinos do not get. The average player comes there for entertainement (that is the only service the casino provides) and knows that in the long run he will lose, then only question being how fast he will lose. If instead of entertainment, the casino provides harassement and intimidation then the average player will take his business else where (so the how fast the player will loss his money becomes irrelevenat as he will loss it elsewhere)

I saw similar thing happen several times.
The casino has the right to get the money back.
You can argu that it's the dealer's fault to pay you over the limit,
but that doesn't mean the casino whould let you keep the money.
Think about it, what would happen if the dealer is your friend and
over pay you 3 thousand? would the casino keep a blind eye and
let you have the money?

Quote: AceTwo

The value of this approach is a lot more than the 3k and the business lost from a player who feels being cheated of 3k.
It is the basic principle that a lot of casinos do not get. The average player comes there for entertainement (that is the only service the casino provides) and knows that in the long run he will lose, then only question being how fast he will lose.

Very well stated.

Frankly, it doesn't matter if it's $3K or just $3. Doesn't matter that in this particular case, it was an error by the player that was compounded by an error by the dealer. Hell, even if it was a case of a dealer mistakenly paying a losing bet, the result, usually, means that the gambler and his bankroll will survive a mere couple minutes longer.

Quote: EvenBob

If casinos hate paying players, they hate paying
dealers more. Casinos hate tips, but tolerate
them because it saves them paying dealers a
decent wage. Steve Wynn hated tips so much
he gave the floor part of the dealer tips so he
wouldn't have to give them a raise. Casinos look
at tips as good money that should be wagered,
not given away. The greedy bastards want every
dime..

Actually didnt Wynn say that his dealers made so much from tips, nobody wanted the floor job because how little it paid in comparison?

Quote: pokerface

I saw similar thing happen several times.
The casino has the right to get the money back.
You can argu that it's the dealer's fault to pay you over the limit,
but that doesn't mean the casino whould let you keep the money.
Think about it, what would happen if the dealer is your friend and
over pay you 3 thousand? would the casino keep a blind eye and
let you have the money?

This situation was not an overpayment. The player was paid correctly for his wagerer amount. If it was an overpayment or a payment for a loss, I could understand the correction (and possible criminal charges). On the same thought, the player shouldn't complain if his over the max wager was swept up if he lost.

Should the Cosmo be doing ANYTHING that would cause anyone willing to gamble there not to come back? And you wonder why they have no players. The dealer should have never paid out the bet and the suits that came should have handled it better. And I agree with the call the Gaming Commission threat and let them decide the outcome.

Either way, I hope you never bet a dollar there again.