Red Flag Comp 'Cheats'
January 5th, 2012 at 10:12:06 PM
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This is from an article written by a vice president
at Foxwoods. Its goes along with what Paigowdan
was saying in the other Red Flag thread.
"Next we need to look at skill level versus patron profitability. The reality is that some customers are very highly skilled Black Jack, Craps or Roulette players and or they are excellent money managers and understand all of the advantages to their benefit. Please dont misunderstand me. As long as the customer is not cheating, I really dont have a problem or issues with letting someone play in our casino. Obviously we have protective measures to counteract card counting but otherwise skill level is another issue that needs to be addressed separately."
"This is a huge problem in casinos today. Controlling comps is not easy. Controlling comps issued to highly skilled, non-profitable customers is critical. To accomplish this at Foxwoods, we formed a Comp Review Committee that meets on a regular basis to review such problems and patrons. We utilize internal reports to generate what we call our Red Flag Report. This report consists of a list of players whose play and profitability fall outside of pre-determined criteria or variances." Read full article HERE.
In a nutshell, they're saying players who are smart
enough break even consistantly should be considered
winners because the casino comps them. So they
have a committee that ferrets them out and punishes
them. Can you believe this crap? Casinos are always
saying 'We LOVE winners, we don't care when players
win!' When the truth is, not only do they HATE winners,
they don't even tolerate people who play outside the
comp variance. Its just as I've always said, casinos want
every dime you have, they feel entitled to it. Articles
like this are real eye openers as to how casinos really
think.
at Foxwoods. Its goes along with what Paigowdan
was saying in the other Red Flag thread.
"Next we need to look at skill level versus patron profitability. The reality is that some customers are very highly skilled Black Jack, Craps or Roulette players and or they are excellent money managers and understand all of the advantages to their benefit. Please dont misunderstand me. As long as the customer is not cheating, I really dont have a problem or issues with letting someone play in our casino. Obviously we have protective measures to counteract card counting but otherwise skill level is another issue that needs to be addressed separately."
"This is a huge problem in casinos today. Controlling comps is not easy. Controlling comps issued to highly skilled, non-profitable customers is critical. To accomplish this at Foxwoods, we formed a Comp Review Committee that meets on a regular basis to review such problems and patrons. We utilize internal reports to generate what we call our Red Flag Report. This report consists of a list of players whose play and profitability fall outside of pre-determined criteria or variances." Read full article HERE.
In a nutshell, they're saying players who are smart
enough break even consistantly should be considered
winners because the casino comps them. So they
have a committee that ferrets them out and punishes
them. Can you believe this crap? Casinos are always
saying 'We LOVE winners, we don't care when players
win!' When the truth is, not only do they HATE winners,
they don't even tolerate people who play outside the
comp variance. Its just as I've always said, casinos want
every dime you have, they feel entitled to it. Articles
like this are real eye openers as to how casinos really
think.
"It's not called gambling if the math is on your side."
January 5th, 2012 at 10:25:02 PM
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This article is 5 years old. But it makes sense. Casinos are always looking to maximize profitability and it treats different players differently because they are more skillled or abuse their normal comps. Not a surprise.
-----
You want the truth! You can't handle the truth!
January 5th, 2012 at 10:30:14 PM
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Great exposure for this article in these forums. It's a real eye-opener. The reality is that as long as casinos need customers there will still be promotions. The more educated the gambler, the better.
100% risk of ruin
January 5th, 2012 at 10:40:19 PM
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Quote: boymimboThis article is 5 years old. But it makes sense.
Yeah, this is before the economy dumped. You think
its not worse now, you think they aren't looking to
find every dime they can? They're such hypocriotes,
thats what gets to me. Hey, come play at our casino,
we love winners. They don't even like players who
break even. Unless you lose, and lose within their
predetermined variance, they don't even want you
on the property.
"It's not called gambling if the math is on your side."
January 5th, 2012 at 11:28:26 PM
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deleted
DUHHIIIIIIIII HEARD THAT!
January 5th, 2012 at 11:44:25 PM
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The reality is, with the tremendous advances
in computer technology in the last decade, casinos
are able to track individual players with an accuracy
unheard of in the past. They can see who makes
them money and who costs them money. It
blatantly points out that the casino isn't there to 'entertain'
you, as they so ridiculously claim. Their only reason
for existence is to seperate you from your money.
in computer technology in the last decade, casinos
are able to track individual players with an accuracy
unheard of in the past. They can see who makes
them money and who costs them money. It
blatantly points out that the casino isn't there to 'entertain'
you, as they so ridiculously claim. Their only reason
for existence is to seperate you from your money.
"It's not called gambling if the math is on your side."
January 6th, 2012 at 12:15:24 AM
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Quote: EvenBobThe reality is, with the tremendous advances in computer technology in the last decade, casinos are able to track individual players with an accuracy unheard of in the past. They can see who makes them money and who costs them money.
Yes, there is some sort of CRM Customer Resource Management acronym. Consider a telephone clerk at a credit card company: they used not to have much leeway in what they could do and little decision making data about a particular customer. Now they have all the late pays, fees and interest data. For a simple call they know who has been paying regularly and is therefore an expense to them and they who has been paying gadzillion late fees and penalty fees and interest fees. The increased availability of information and the increased automatic groupings that can be done by computer leaves lower level managers with an increased ability to cherry pick.
The Evil Empire has long been famous for always paring its comps to the bone. It offers inducements but once it determines someone is likely to show up at the casino anyway the mailing values go down. After there has been no response for a while the comps may head back up slightly. Everything is attuned to a butcher-like attitude of trimming the meat from the bone automatically. Computers make that possible though firing many dealers and promoting idiots to Floor Men often makes the initial input data doubtful.
It goes back to Harrah's room size and configuration experiments decades ago. All those movable walls and surveys lead to an ability to really know the dividing lines on how much space they actually had to give their guests. The multiple brands let them maximize each market segment.
Casinos are the same way and always have been: Benny Binion did the same thing. A guy wanted to talk about raising his limits, Benny Binion didn't waste time: he said your limit is the size of your next bet. Sort of a put up or shut up attitude. You think you are worthy of some special consideration... then prove it on your next bet! The Evil Empire does the same thing with computers and marketing techniques. You want a Comp to the buffet Mr. "X"... well we will give a comp to the Deli because we know your wife will drag you here next week anyway no matter what we do so we don't have to keep you too happy, just happy enough.
January 6th, 2012 at 3:53:51 AM
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That this is Foxwoods says a lot. But this is smart business, isn't it? I might wish they would stay stupid, but I can't get mad. I might be concerned that an outfit all aflutter about this is comping me for half of what they should be, though.
I'm just a beginner at joining up officially at the places I gamble. Unfortunately I have been nailed immediately as too much of a piker playing too tight HE, so they are not so stupid as that seems to me. Granted, I did nothing to try to initially fool anyone when first getting a player's card, as it is not in my nature to be dishonest about something like that. Nonetheless it appears offers and coupons are going to come anyway (perhaps not from Foxwoods! [g])
I'm just a beginner at joining up officially at the places I gamble. Unfortunately I have been nailed immediately as too much of a piker playing too tight HE, so they are not so stupid as that seems to me. Granted, I did nothing to try to initially fool anyone when first getting a player's card, as it is not in my nature to be dishonest about something like that. Nonetheless it appears offers and coupons are going to come anyway (perhaps not from Foxwoods! [g])
the next time Dame Fortune toys with your heart, your soul and your wallet, raise your glass and praise her thus: Thanks for nothing, you cold-hearted, evil, damnable, nefarious, low-life, malicious monster from Hell! She is, after all, stone deaf. ... Arnold Snyder
January 6th, 2012 at 4:06:44 AM
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I have no idea what your issue with this is. If someone isn't profitable for the casino, the casino doesn't want to comp them...
So you're saying that you have the "right to be comped"? Don't play for comps then!
I play at Horseshoe because I like free rooms when I go to Vegas. If they stopped giving me free rooms, then maybe I would go there less. Either way, the casino is a business, they can do whatever they want, and I will decide if I want to be a customer there.
A customer of a business should not be able to set the rules.
And to think that you are surprised that the casino doesn't want to lose money on someone? I just don't understand the confusion here.
So you're saying that you have the "right to be comped"? Don't play for comps then!
I play at Horseshoe because I like free rooms when I go to Vegas. If they stopped giving me free rooms, then maybe I would go there less. Either way, the casino is a business, they can do whatever they want, and I will decide if I want to be a customer there.
A customer of a business should not be able to set the rules.
And to think that you are surprised that the casino doesn't want to lose money on someone? I just don't understand the confusion here.
January 6th, 2012 at 4:16:24 AM
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Quote: boymimboThis article is 5 years old. But it makes sense. Casinos are always looking to maximize profitability and it treats different players differently because they are more skillled or abuse their normal comps. Not a surprise.
EvenBob's commentary is 100% true and I've been saying the same things for years. Casino shills on forums like this and elsewhere continue to tell us how much patrons are valued but they are lying through their teeth.
I am very familiar with Steve Karoul the author of the the article that Bob linked to because I am one of his "victims". During his reign I was not only backed off but had my point balance wiped out as well. Luckily I had just gone Christmas shopping at Foxwoods so the balance was low. APs had a healthy respect for this guy and no one took it personally.
Mr. Karoul is no longer at Foxwoods having recently left for the second time, but I have a feeling they would hire him back in a heartbeat.
Many people, especially ignorant people, want to punish you for speaking the truth. - Mahatma Ghandi
January 6th, 2012 at 4:41:47 AM
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I totally agree with FinsRule.
Where is it written that ANY player is entitled to comps?
Foxwoods is NOT saying that they don't want the intelligent, non-profitable player. They're saying that they aren't going to go out of their way to get him to visit more.
Where is it written that ANY player is entitled to comps?
Foxwoods is NOT saying that they don't want the intelligent, non-profitable player. They're saying that they aren't going to go out of their way to get him to visit more.
I invented a few casino games. Info:
http://www.DaveMillerGaming.com/
Superstitions are silly, childish, irrational rituals, born out of fear of the unknown. But how much does it cost to knock on wood? 😁
January 6th, 2012 at 10:52:08 AM
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Quote: FinsRule
I play at Horseshoe because I like free rooms when I go to Vegas. If they stopped giving me free rooms, then maybe I would go there less. Either way, the casino is a business, they can do whatever they want, and I will decide if I want to be a customer there.
If you've ever read any of my posts, you probably know that my favorite casino is Horseshoe Southern Indiana. Among having nearly every game I like (except Ultimate Hold Em), they also have free rooms nearly whenever I want one and they write comps instead of taking it out of Reward Credit balance. I've figured out (through the help of a supervisor) that they don't send me quite as generous offers as they do other players, since I nearly always take advantage of the written comps and free rooms.
For me, this is fine. If they're willing to spend $x on me, through bounceback, RCs and mailed offers or through comps written instead of deducted, I don't care. Actually, the mailed offers can't always be used, since I live far away from there, so I prefer choosing my comps at my convenience. I don't play a lot of high house edge games there, mostly Pai Gow Tiles, Craps, and Spanish 21, with 9-6 JoB and live poker, but I get my value each time I go down there. They've cut back, like everywhere else, but I'm still happy enough with the experience that I'll drive past 3 casinos to play there.
"One out of every four people are [morons]"- Kyle, South Park
January 6th, 2012 at 12:14:49 PM
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DUHHIIIIIIIII HEARD THAT!
January 6th, 2012 at 12:53:03 PM
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Quote: FinsRuleSo you're saying that you have the "right to be comped"? Don't play for comps then
I don't, never had a players club card in my
life. My wife does all the comps, I could care
less. My point in posting this thread is, its amazing
how hip casinos are getting to what happens
with their players. They can fine tune it now to
such a degree if you're dead weight to them, they
'fire' you. All the 'we love winners' crap was just
that, crap. They detest anybody who's not making
them money. Barnes and Noble has big fat over
stuffed chairs where you can sit and read for hours
if you like. They know a certain percentage of people
will buy the books they're reading. Casinos don't
want the people who don't buy the books, if you're
not contributing to their bottom line, you're gone.
Thats fine, I understand corporate greed. Just quit
lying to us about it. Quit saying your one thing, when
you're something else entirely. Quit showing us orgasmic
happy winners in all your ads, when 95% leave losers.
Quit saying you love winners, when you have a whole
new arm of the industry that ferrets out those that aren't
losing fast enough. Just tell us you're a bunch of
greedy bastards who think every dollar we bring to the
casino is yours. We'll understand.
"It's not called gambling if the math is on your side."
January 6th, 2012 at 1:26:49 PM
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DUHHIIIIIIIII HEARD THAT!
January 6th, 2012 at 1:58:23 PM
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Quote: EvenBobThats fine, I understand corporate greed. Just quit
lying to us about it. Quit saying your one thing, when
you're something else entirely.
But how do you define "casino"?
I'll say straight out I enjoy people winning. The little old ladies are the best. Really the only winners I don't like are the insufferable d-bags, but that's because I don't like them period. I trust you'll believe me.
Dan says he likes them, I've no reason to doubt him.
Does Valet care either way? Housekeeping? Food & Bev? Security? Any other non-gaming dept?
The owner cares, sure. Maybe he doesn't fancy your kind. The guy running the show that has to put up numbers, he probably cares too. Near as I can figure, that's 1-5 guys out of 1,200 that might not like you. Maybe you can add a hundred for the employees that just don't like anyone, period. Does that mean "the casino" doesn't like you?
I'm not being rhetorical, I actually want to know. Where do you draw the line? If 1,199 people were elated to see you, but that one guy is hating you for taking his money, is it still "that damn ol' casino"?
The opinions of this moderator are for entertainment purposes only.
January 6th, 2012 at 2:21:02 PM
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Quote: FaceI'll say straight out I enjoy people winning. The little old ladies are the best.
You guys aren't the casino, any more than
the guys on the line in Detroit are Ford or
GM. You work for the casino. You don't set
policy, you don't make rules. Its the bean
counters and corporate exec's who run it.
Its offensive that a group of these execs goes
over every players record thats been red flagged
and figures out his worth to the casinos
bottom line. It goes against what they claim
they are, an entertainment venue. What they
are is a fleecing venue, and you better cooperate
or you're history. I've said this before, a modern
casino is just the old time traveling carnival that never
moves. They have the same disdain for the public
the old carnivals had. Take the customer for all
you can and if he's dumb enough, he'll keep
coming back for more.
"It's not called gambling if the math is on your side."
January 7th, 2012 at 6:09:25 AM
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This isn't anything new in principle. Casinos have always been sweating the money, only with short breaks.
It's just that now instead of floormen going "Luigi, isn't this moulie winning too much?" they are run by MBA grads with science sidekicks to tell them "Sir, surveillance team Delta reports an emergency in sector 17B! A player's results fall outside 3 standard deviations from the mean, indicating with 95% confidence that his skill level is within the top 8% of populace, resulting in mean hold reduction of 65% with standard deviation of 16%!"
Same sweat, new deodorant - your 3/10 of the bet on naturals at work.
It's just that now instead of floormen going "Luigi, isn't this moulie winning too much?" they are run by MBA grads with science sidekicks to tell them "Sir, surveillance team Delta reports an emergency in sector 17B! A player's results fall outside 3 standard deviations from the mean, indicating with 95% confidence that his skill level is within the top 8% of populace, resulting in mean hold reduction of 65% with standard deviation of 16%!"
Same sweat, new deodorant - your 3/10 of the bet on naturals at work.
Resist ANFO Boston PRISM Stormfront IRA Freedom CIA Obama
January 7th, 2012 at 10:37:03 AM
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Quote: EvenBobTheir only reason for existence is to seperate you from your money.
I think you just described every for-profit business in the world.
January 7th, 2012 at 10:49:58 AM
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Quote: kpI think you just described every for-profit business in the world.
You bet.
It's like Dairy Queen, but with dice.
"What, me worry?"
January 7th, 2012 at 11:02:28 AM
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DUHHIIIIIIIII HEARD THAT!
January 7th, 2012 at 12:38:33 PM
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Quote: P90A player's results fall outside 3 standard deviations from the mean, indicating with 95% confidence that his skill level is within the top 8% of populace
And thats why I play for short periods, never
use a player card, and never buy in. I keep
chips from the last time I was there. I'm always
friendly to the pit, ask them way more questions
than they ask me (which is none) and try and
stay under their radar. When they ask for a player
card I always tell them comps for roulette are
a joke (which they are) and I won't be there long
anyway. They never say a word.
"It's not called gambling if the math is on your side."
January 7th, 2012 at 5:45:18 PM
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Quote: EvenBobAnd thats why I play for short periods, never use a player card, and never buy in.
Smart thinking. Staying off their radar is the best way to keep them from cutting your comps.
January 7th, 2012 at 6:37:05 PM
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Who cares about comps? I've never gotten comps, ever.
My wife gets them, thats fine. I don't like having my play
tracked. When I first started seeing the players card's in
the 90's, I never trusted them. In the BJ books, they're
always talking about free packs of cigarettes and free
lunches, like its really important. Its not..
My wife gets them, thats fine. I don't like having my play
tracked. When I first started seeing the players card's in
the 90's, I never trusted them. In the BJ books, they're
always talking about free packs of cigarettes and free
lunches, like its really important. Its not..
"It's not called gambling if the math is on your side."
January 7th, 2012 at 6:47:18 PM
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DUHHIIIIIIIII HEARD THAT!
January 7th, 2012 at 6:48:28 PM
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Quote: EvenBob They can fine tune it now to
such a degree if you're dead weight to them, they
'fire' you.[/q
Bullshit.
"Fire you?"
I shoot craps and play slots: do you SERIOUSLY think I would ever get "fired," i.e. denied the opportunity to play?
You're just paranoid."What, me worry?"
January 7th, 2012 at 6:52:20 PM
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I don't think you have to worry. I'm sure they
would never red flag you in a hundred years,
why would they.
would never red flag you in a hundred years,
why would they.
"It's not called gambling if the math is on your side."
January 7th, 2012 at 8:23:51 PM
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Nor would they red flag a roulette player: why should they?
"What, me worry?"
January 7th, 2012 at 9:22:43 PM
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Quote: EvenBobWho cares about comps?
The person who started this thread apparently cares about them. A lot. And is worried about losing them. They just need to learn how to work the system.
January 7th, 2012 at 10:12:13 PM
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Actually, I started this thread because of the lengths
casinos go thru to hassle and track players. I could
care less about the comps, others who know me from
other forums will remember I've said that for years.
casinos go thru to hassle and track players. I could
care less about the comps, others who know me from
other forums will remember I've said that for years.
"It's not called gambling if the math is on your side."
January 10th, 2012 at 11:09:13 PM
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"You need to focus on the 20% of your gaming customers that typically account for 80% of your profits. A players 'lifetime worth' is a much better strategic focus than their average daily theoretical worth TODAY."
In other words, you need to profile your players,
weed out the biggest losers and cater to them,
comp their asses off because you know they're
stupid enough to come back again and again and
lose. Yet its just an entertainment venue, and they
love winners. Exactly what 'entertainment' are the
20% who make the casino 80% of its profits buying?
In other words, you need to profile your players,
weed out the biggest losers and cater to them,
comp their asses off because you know they're
stupid enough to come back again and again and
lose. Yet its just an entertainment venue, and they
love winners. Exactly what 'entertainment' are the
20% who make the casino 80% of its profits buying?
"It's not called gambling if the math is on your side."
January 11th, 2012 at 12:05:38 AM
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Quote: EvenBob" Exactly what 'entertainment' are the 20% who make the casino 80% of its profits buying?
They're buying a pocket full of hope.
"What, me worry?"
January 11th, 2012 at 1:33:50 AM
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Quote: EvenBobThis is from an article written by a vice president
at Foxwoods. Its goes along with what Paigowdan
was saying in the other Red Flag thread.
"Next we need to look at skill level versus patron profitability. The reality is that some customers are very highly skilled Black Jack, Craps or Roulette players and or they are excellent money managers and understand all of the advantages to their benefit. Please dont misunderstand me. As long as the customer is not cheating, I really dont have a problem or issues with letting someone play in our casino. Obviously we have protective measures to counteract card counting but otherwise skill level is another issue that needs to be addressed separately."
"This is a huge problem in casinos today. Controlling comps is not easy. Controlling comps issued to highly skilled, non-profitable customers is critical. To accomplish this at Foxwoods, we formed a Comp Review Committee that meets on a regular basis to review such problems and patrons. We utilize internal reports to generate what we call our Red Flag Report. This report consists of a list of players whose play and profitability fall outside of pre-determined criteria or variances." Read full article HERE.
In a nutshell, they're saying players who are smart
enough break even consistantly should be considered
winners because the casino comps them. So they
have a committee that ferrets them out and punishes
them. Can you believe this crap? Casinos are always
saying 'We LOVE winners, we don't care when players
win!' When the truth is, not only do they HATE winners,
they don't even tolerate people who play outside the
comp variance. Its just as I've always said, casinos want
every dime you have, they feel entitled to it. Articles
like this are real eye openers as to how casinos really
What's crappy abopt it? Gamblers are so f'ing spoiled, especially VP players. Do you have a right to expect comps if you are not putting any money in their till?
Be comped while you win? Name me any business that can succeed while subsidizing their patrons? You are a total dumbass just like the card counters begging for a meal comp after sitting there playing at an advantage. Just the shit of our society, guess it will always be around.
think.
January 11th, 2012 at 9:46:29 AM
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I personally have no problem whatsoever with casinos becoming smarter and tracking each player's move. It's customer relations, and is designed to squeeze every single dollar from the player.
Keep in mind that most revenue is derived from entertainment seeking slots players. The comp calculation for them is fairly straight forward: you give them a percentage of losses, and provide just enough comps and coupons to them to hope that they come back, because over time, keeping the casino full of slot patrons (win or lose) is a goal that can only make the casino tons of money. The player's card when used contains a plethora of information that can be used to figure out what comps to offer and when to offer them.
For table players, it becomes more difficult. A player's card will give you information on the game played, the amount put in, the average bet, and the amount taken away (if the pit is around when you cash out). With that they can calculate your theoretical loss based on a house advantage. Over time, the knowledge of the exact amount taken away will give you your variance from house advantage. With that information, they can figure out what comp to give you in order to keep you coming back. The card will also track comps used.
I have no doubt that the casino knows when I'm using my comps. My status at the casino gets me a flyer dedicated to all people at my level of play. In addition, after times of heavy slot play, I would receive a mailer from the casino offering me a one-time credit of "x" dollars probably based on my real loss.
The casino's job is to take your money, plain and simple. As software gets smarter, look for more tailored offerrings that in the end are designed to take more of your money. The ads promising entertainment are true... for the great majority of players, gambling is a night out and the comps offered for these infrequent gamblers are thin. For the small minority of players that provide the casinos with the bulk of their revenue, it's important for the casinos to offer the right level of comps that will keep them coming back (or steer them away) based on what they ACTUALLY lose and not what they EXPECT to lose.
Keep in mind that most revenue is derived from entertainment seeking slots players. The comp calculation for them is fairly straight forward: you give them a percentage of losses, and provide just enough comps and coupons to them to hope that they come back, because over time, keeping the casino full of slot patrons (win or lose) is a goal that can only make the casino tons of money. The player's card when used contains a plethora of information that can be used to figure out what comps to offer and when to offer them.
For table players, it becomes more difficult. A player's card will give you information on the game played, the amount put in, the average bet, and the amount taken away (if the pit is around when you cash out). With that they can calculate your theoretical loss based on a house advantage. Over time, the knowledge of the exact amount taken away will give you your variance from house advantage. With that information, they can figure out what comp to give you in order to keep you coming back. The card will also track comps used.
I have no doubt that the casino knows when I'm using my comps. My status at the casino gets me a flyer dedicated to all people at my level of play. In addition, after times of heavy slot play, I would receive a mailer from the casino offering me a one-time credit of "x" dollars probably based on my real loss.
The casino's job is to take your money, plain and simple. As software gets smarter, look for more tailored offerrings that in the end are designed to take more of your money. The ads promising entertainment are true... for the great majority of players, gambling is a night out and the comps offered for these infrequent gamblers are thin. For the small minority of players that provide the casinos with the bulk of their revenue, it's important for the casinos to offer the right level of comps that will keep them coming back (or steer them away) based on what they ACTUALLY lose and not what they EXPECT to lose.
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You want the truth! You can't handle the truth!
January 11th, 2012 at 12:27:08 PM
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Quote: boymimboI personally have no problem whatsoever with casinos becoming smarter and tracking each player's move. .
The casinos admit, in the last 10 years there
has been an explosion in the ability they have
to track everything a players does thru his
players card. They call comps 'reinvesting'
a players 'contribution' (losses) in the hopes
he'll keep coming back to 'contribute' even
more.
When I started going to Vegas decades ago,
I got comped. In those days you had to ask
the pit to comp your action right there, and
they'd write a comp for a dinner or a show
or whatever. But you had to ask, they never
volunteered. I was fine with it because I
never used my real name anyway, what did
I care. It was when the players cards started
coming out in the 90's that I got edgy. I
resent anybody tracking what I do for any
reason. Just recently, the grocery store chain
I use issued a 'points' card that you have to
swipe at checkout in order to get anything
thats on sale. You earn points (comps) that
you can redeem for grocery items. I fought
against it but had to give in because of the
sale items. Its Big Brother watching. They
know every item I buy, they can track my
buying and eating habits and sell the info
to whoever buys such stuff, as I'm sure was
the intent. I hate it.
"It's not called gambling if the math is on your side."
January 11th, 2012 at 1:47:46 PM
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The real intent is to help the store operator run the business more effectively. In a grocery store, you can correlate items sold on the same receipt, but not items sold across different transactions. The loyalty cards allow you to do that, in effect giving you insight into consumption trends and the necessary stock levels to meet those demands. It's not terribly different for a casino -- uncarded play can give a slot operator a high-level snapshot of what's going on right now, but carded play allows you to see trends and anticipate demand. It also gives you the ability to understand how well promotional efforts are likely to work.
You can hate it if you want, but it's certainly not going away.
You can hate it if you want, but it's certainly not going away.
"In my own case, when it seemed to me after a long illness that death was close at hand, I found no little solace in playing constantly at dice."
-- Girolamo Cardano, 1563
January 11th, 2012 at 2:31:51 PM
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Quote: MathExtremistYou can hate it if you want, but it's certainly not going away.
Thats the problem. I read nothing but science
fiction in the 50's and 60's, when I was a kid.
There was always a lot of emphasis on losing
our indivuality thru Big Brother tracking our
every move in the future. I suppose thats where
I get my attitude from. Well, the future is here
and its turning out just like they said it would.
Of course its all for our own 'good', until they
have us so tied into the system that we realize
all our rights to privacy are gone. I'll never get
a casino card, and if I'm forced to get one, I'll
never use it. Screw them. If comps are that
important, you shouldn't be playing anyway.
"It's not called gambling if the math is on your side."
January 11th, 2012 at 8:21:56 PM
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As you lie awake in bed late at night, listen closely, if you hear nothing, it's the silent black helicopters, hovering above your house, and watching your every move.
January 11th, 2012 at 8:45:04 PM
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My house is covered in aluminum foil, good luck with that..
"It's not called gambling if the math is on your side."
January 21st, 2012 at 5:03:12 PM
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This is from an article on casino hosts.
>>Growth can come from the lower segment of the (customer) database, said Browne. They are not spending to their potential. This is where hosts should be spending most of their time.>>
Their 'potential'? Translation: In your database records, you have all
these players who aren't showing up enough, who aren't contributing
their 'fair share' to what we're offering, negative expectation games.
This is akin to a shark saying a certain school of fish isn't giving their
fair share to his well being. I could understand this way of thinking if
the casino actually offered something for the money people spend. But
all they have to peddle is false hopes and worthless dreams. They might
as well be cigarette manufacterers, its the same dynamic.
>>Lets face it, our business (gaming) provides a product that nobody actually needs.>>
Yup, cigarettes for sure.
>>Growth can come from the lower segment of the (customer) database, said Browne. They are not spending to their potential. This is where hosts should be spending most of their time.>>
Their 'potential'? Translation: In your database records, you have all
these players who aren't showing up enough, who aren't contributing
their 'fair share' to what we're offering, negative expectation games.
This is akin to a shark saying a certain school of fish isn't giving their
fair share to his well being. I could understand this way of thinking if
the casino actually offered something for the money people spend. But
all they have to peddle is false hopes and worthless dreams. They might
as well be cigarette manufacterers, its the same dynamic.
>>Lets face it, our business (gaming) provides a product that nobody actually needs.>>
Yup, cigarettes for sure.
"It's not called gambling if the math is on your side."
January 21st, 2012 at 5:48:30 PM
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Quote: EvenBob
reason. Just recently, the grocery store chain
I use issued a 'points' card that you have to
swipe at checkout in order to get anything
thats on sale. You earn points (comps) that
you can redeem for grocery items. I fought
against it but had to give in because of the
sale items. Its Big Brother watching. They
know every item I buy, they can track my
buying and eating habits and sell the info
to whoever buys such stuff, as I'm sure was
the intent. I hate it.
You can get the sale items by just saying "I forgot my card", and they'll swipe the store card. They'll do it for you every time, and really, it's good for them, because (1) You won't earn the "points" (exactly like comps) for free gas or register receipts for "$5 off your next $50" or whatever and (2) they'll still get the info that they really want, which has nothing to do with you personally.
I remember when I got my latest Supermarket card, they just gave it to me with the postcard sized application and said "You can use it for the sale prices right away, but if you want the extra bonuses, just fill this out and bring it back..." And actually I have gotten some of the bonus comps (coupons after checkout) even when I have used the cashier's card and not mine.
So if all you want is the sale prices and not the comps, then you don't have to worry about being tracked. I understand some of your Casino reluctance but wanted to calm your supermarket fears a bit.
January 21st, 2012 at 5:56:11 PM
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Quote: cclub79You can get the sale items by just saying "I forgot my card", and they'll swipe the store card.
Nope. They did that the first two weeks into the
program, now you have to have your own card.
"It's not called gambling if the math is on your side."
January 21st, 2012 at 6:04:30 PM
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Quote: EvenBobNope. They did that the first two weeks into the
program, now you have to have your own card.
Wow, I've never had them not swipe a store card in the 4 different states and countless supermarkets I've been in! Stingy! I'd say fill out the form with an alias and the address of the supermarket then...if they ask (they won't) say you are homeless and if they'd like to discriminate against the homeless, you have several lawyers at your disposal!
January 21st, 2012 at 6:18:15 PM
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Ditto.
The stores around here always let you use the store card.
Consider the alternative:
A. A pissed off customer
B. You apply for a new card - requiring someone to enter that info
C. You get a new card with false info - meaning they'll send mailers to invalid addresses
The stores around here always let you use the store card.
Consider the alternative:
A. A pissed off customer
B. You apply for a new card - requiring someone to enter that info
C. You get a new card with false info - meaning they'll send mailers to invalid addresses
I invented a few casino games. Info:
http://www.DaveMillerGaming.com/
Superstitions are silly, childish, irrational rituals, born out of fear of the unknown. But how much does it cost to knock on wood? 😁
January 21st, 2012 at 6:33:10 PM
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Quote: cclub79I'd say fill out the form with an alias and the address of the supermarket then...if they ask (they won't)
You have to show a drivers license as proof that
you are who you say you are. Thats why I was
against this to start with.
"It's not called gambling if the math is on your side."
January 21st, 2012 at 6:35:24 PM
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Quote: DJTeddyBearDitto. The stores around here always let you use the store card.
There was a retired out of town couple in front
of me today and they had no card and none was
offered by the cashier. She said they're forbidden
from using a store card.
"It's not called gambling if the math is on your side."
January 21st, 2012 at 6:43:06 PM
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Quote: EvenBobYou have to show a drivers license as proof that
you are who you say you are. Thats why I was
against this to start with.
Whoa...where the heck are you shopping? The ONLY time they'd ever ask for DL is for check cashing. You should find a new supermarket, because I've been to over a dozen chains and all let you use the store card and none required ID.
January 21st, 2012 at 6:45:26 PM
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There's only two huge chains here now, dozens
of each in the area. Not much choice.
of each in the area. Not much choice.
"It's not called gambling if the math is on your side."
January 22nd, 2012 at 6:27:08 AM
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Quote: EvenBobYou have to show a drivers license as proof that you are who you say you are. Thats why I was against this to start with.
Actually, EvenBob is right... Giant Eagle around here requires to show a DL to get a card. I was a little surprised, because Kroger's just has you fill out a form, and most of the time, I just mix a couple digits in my address and a couple digits in my phone number to avoid getting hit with junk mail. I'm not paranoid, but I already get enough casino mailings, and frankly, I don't shop at the overpriced grocery stores to save a few bucks on a gas. Give me WalMart or Meijer any day!
However, EvenBob, most groceries stores will swipe their card for you. Or even better, if there's a line, get someone behind you to swipe their card. They'll be happy to take the points you don't want.
"One out of every four people are [morons]"- Kyle, South Park
January 22nd, 2012 at 7:30:58 AM
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Quote: TiltpoulActually, EvenBob is right... Giant Eagle around here requires to show a DL to get a card. .
I'm pretty sure the law would be on your side if you said you'd rather not show your DL. A call to the BBB would also probably be on your side if they demanded ID for sale prices. Unless they say in the fine print that you must be 17 and older to take advantage of their sale prices (and actually, something like that would have to be printed in more than fine print), you could also say you are not a licensed driver, and nothing says you must be a licensed driver to get sale prices.
