dm
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December 5th, 2011 at 4:23:49 PM permalink
For those of you who were fortunate enough to miss it, but you did miss a good laugh, the How Bout Them's showed everyone just what they are made of - which includes no brain matter inside anyone, except maybe the water boy. We'll never know for sure.
With about 25 seconds on the clock, having just completed a pass for a first down,? but that didn't really matter, on the opponent's 25 yard line, more or less, Tony Romo races the herd down to the spot to, at last, finally spike the ball to stop the clock at 7 seconds.
At this point they bring on the field goal team. Just before the place kicker puts through a successful kick, someone on the sidelines
calls time out. Just to ice their own kicker? We'll never know. Just to get rid of one of the 2 remaining timeouts? We'll never know.
But, at least the kicker was not reiced, because at this point someone realized that if the snap was mishandled, and Romeo has been known to do that at the absolute most crucial of occasions in the past, there might be time to stop the clock and try a, now longer, field goal. I say the coach was trying to do some more icing by calling the last time out, but was tackled by the water boy, who realized that, actually, the remaining time out might come in handy. We'll never know. At that point I was already laughing at the ridiculous exhibition I was witnessing, and pulling like heck for the kicker to miss the actual attempt. I got my wish. Overtime.
So, I am now rooting against my own team because I believe stupidity deserves a just reward. When the Cardinals threw the little
outlet pass, maybe it was even a screen, and as the receiver made a brilliant run, I was cheering him like a maniac, which The Boys had made of me with just that brief period of lunacy, all the way into the end zone. I could only laugh and wildly cheer. How Bout Them..................morons? Cowgirls? You make the call!
Nareed
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December 5th, 2011 at 4:35:26 PM permalink
For those who don't speak stark, raving mad, here's a summary of events:

1) Dallas obtained a first down in Arizona's territory at the long edge of field goal range (about a 49-yar FG attempt)
2) At this time Dallas had two time outs and over 20 seconds on the clock (I'm going from memory)
3) Instead of taking a time out and trying to run the ball a few more yards in, the team rushed to spike the ball, letting the clock run down to under 10 seconds. The FG unit went in
4) Dallas requested a time out just before the snap. However, the ball was snapped before the action could be stopped, and the FG attempted was successful.
5) The field goal dind't count, because it happened during a time out. So Dallas did ice their own kicker for some reason
6) The next attempt was unsuccessful, the game went into overtime and Arizona won.

I can understand hoarding the two time outs. If you took one and ran the ball, then you'd need to take the last one to get the FG unit in. This leaves you with no timeouts should the FG attempt fail due to a snap misshap.

I do not understand taking a timeout with the clock stopped and the FG unit out in the field. Unless there were 12 players on the field, or there was an illegal formation. but neither appears to be the case.

Something funy happens to the Cowboys in December....

Edited to add: didn't the Browns, before they didn't become the Ravens (of course) had a pass intercepted, I believe against the Raiders, when they needed a field goal and were in short FG range? They lost, of course. i can't recall whteher it was a playoff game, or if the loss knocked them off playoff contention.

But then something funny always happens to the acursed Browns :)
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thecesspit
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December 5th, 2011 at 4:56:19 PM permalink
Most of the Detroit Lions on Sunday night acted more stupidly than America's team.

Swartz better sort that crap out damn soon. I'm not sure he will, but he's let it get out of hand.
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dm
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December 5th, 2011 at 5:06:24 PM permalink
Quote: Nareed

For those who don't speak stark, raving mad, here's a summary of events:

1) Dallas obtained a first down in Arizona's territory at the long edge of field goal range (about a 49-yar FG attempt)
2) At this time Dallas had two time outs and over 20 seconds on the clock (I'm going from memory)
3) Instead of taking a time out and trying to run the ball a few more yards in, the team rushed to spike the ball, letting the clock run down to under 10 seconds. The FG unit went in
4) Dallas requested a time out just before the snap. However, the ball was snapped before the action could be stopped, and the FG attempted was successful.
5) The field goal dind't count, because it happened during a time out. So Dallas did ice their own kicker for some reason
6) The next attempt was unsuccessful, the game went into overtime and Arizona won.

I can understand hoarding the two time outs. If you took one and ran the ball, then you'd need to take the last one to get the FG unit in. This leaves you with no timeouts should the FG attempt fail due to a snap misshap.

I do not understand taking a timeout with the clock stopped and the FG unit out in the field. Unless there were 12 players on the field, or there was an illegal formation. but neither appears to be the case.

Something funy happens to the Cowboys in December....

Edited to add: didn't the Browns, before they didn't become the Ravens (of course) had a pass intercepted, I believe against the Raiders, when they needed a field goal and were in short FG range? They lost, of course. i can't recall whteher it was a playoff game, or if the loss knocked them off playoff contention.

But then something funny always happens to the acursed Browns :)





Hold on - I spoke it, so they don't need to. They need to understand it. And, you are the stark raver. My memory is way better than yours. You do not dare risk a run with only, EXACTLY, 7 seconds left on the clock. That would just be more idiocy. They would have been glad to let Dallas run it to the 5 yard line or so, just to get to overtime a little quicker. However, the qb might have run himself to center or position the ball to the kicker's liking, and have time to call time out. You're ridiculous! Let us know when that period is over so we can breathe again.
Face
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December 5th, 2011 at 5:20:26 PM permalink
Good call on a reason to save 2 timeouts, Nareed, as that would be a very Belichick-ish thing to do. For me, too complicated, too cerebral, but I could understand why. Personally, I'd have banged out a quick time out, ran it once more, another timeout, then kick. But I'm nobody.

Dummyhead was interviewed (Dallas coach, I forget the name) and stated that he saw the play clock at 6 seconds and his players were still shuffling into position. Rather than risk the chance of a hurried play with unready players, or his kicker being in a rush and therefore distracted, he called the TO. I haven't seen the play enough to judge this claim, but I'd say that was smart. BUT, after the play that led to the spike, you know you're going to spike and you know you're going to kick. That's almost 2 minutes for the kicking team to prepare and 40 seconds for them to get their tails on the field and set up. They didn't execute. For this reason, they deserve to lose.
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Nareed
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December 5th, 2011 at 6:12:19 PM permalink
Quote: Face

Good call on a reason to save 2 timeouts, Nareed, as that would be a very Belichick-ish thing to do. For me, too complicated, too cerebral, but I could understand why.



Thanks. I am complicated and cerebral, you know :)

Quote:

Personally, I'd have banged out a quick time out, ran it once more, another timeout, then kick. But I'm nobody.



I'd have done that, too. Either a run through the center to get a few yards closer, or, if I were feeling like taking a risk, a short pass down the middle. It's not as risky as it seems. Send the receivers to the sidelines, where they'll be fiercely covered, then sneak a running back or an elegible lineman to the center some 5 to 10 yards forward. Throw low to reduce the chance of an interception.

Of ourse, you need to have the play prepared, not make it up on the spot.

Quote:

Dummyhead was interviewed (Dallas coach, I forget the name) and stated that he saw the play clock at 6 seconds and his players were still shuffling into position.



I'd like to see that replay. My guess is the coach let hsi nerves get the better of him. That's useful to know. A nervous coach makes for nervous players. Nervous players make mistakes, like jumping the gun on a long count on 4th and short with time running out...

Quote:

That's almost 2 minutes for the kicking team to prepare and 40 seconds for them to get their tails on the field and set up. They didn't execute. For this reason, they deserve to lose.



I agree. The kicking team should have been ready before the play that got them the first down. It's Lombardy time :)
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FleaStiff
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December 5th, 2011 at 6:45:39 PM permalink
>Dummyhead was interviewed and stated that he saw the play clock at 6 seconds and his players were still shuffling into position.
Thems players what were doin' the Shuffle instead of steppin' smartly, ... were they new to football? New to such concepts as "the clock" etc ?

>Rather than risk the chance of a hurried play with unready players, or his kicker being in a rush and therefore distracted,
Oh, the poor things... I'm sure they would have burst into tears right there on the field what with being rushed or distracted.

Now will someone answer the obvious question: What was the line? What happened to the bookies as a result of all this?
Johnzimbo
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December 5th, 2011 at 7:35:31 PM permalink
Yes Jason Garrett had multiple brain cramps at the end of regulation, but the title of this post is a bit of a reach (not to mention the lame use of all caps)
Wizard
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December 5th, 2011 at 8:25:42 PM permalink
I recently finished reading the outstanding book Sportscasting. It is like Freakonomics, but is focused on dispelling myths about sports. One such myth is the value in "icing the kicker." There is no argument that it happens. However, statistics show that it actually has the opposite effect. While it is supposed to freak out the kicker, it actually gives him a free practice kick, which is helpful in judging the wind.

Granted the situation is not directly applicable to what you're talking about. Here Dallas iced their own kicker, and the first attempt was good, and the second bad. Perhaps they did it TO give the kicker the practice kick.
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Nareed
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December 5th, 2011 at 8:48:49 PM permalink
Quote: Wizard

I recently finished reading the outstanding book Sportscasting. It is like Freakonomics, but is focused on dispelling myths about sports. One such myth is the value in "icing the kicker." There is no argument that it happens. However, statistics show that it actually has the opposite effect. While it is supposed to freak out the kicker, it actually gives him a free practice kick, which is helpful in judging the wind.



They've tackled, if you'll pardon the pun, that same myth in NFL Network's "Top Ten Football Myths." Many kickers stated they couldn't care less, and some saw advantages (like giving their teammates time to clear a spot in a snowy field, for example).

But I can see the point in trying. The game is riding on the kicker at this point, or the tie. So he's under a lot of pressure. If you could get him to stop before he kicks, the idea is the added idle time just leaves him more time to ponder the consequences of failure... In the end, it comes down to whether the other team can afford to use the time out.

Quote:

Granted the situation is not directly applicable to what you're talking about. Here Dallas iced their own kicker, and the first attempt was good, and the second bad. Perhaps they did it TO give the kicker the practice kick.



I think the explanation Face came up with is right. The coach got nervous, thought they weren't going to get the play out in time, and tried to forestall a penalty by taking a time out. it's a blunder, no two ways about it.
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Face
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December 5th, 2011 at 9:04:27 PM permalink
Quote: Nareed

I think the explanation Face came up with is right. The coach got nervous, thought they weren't going to get the play out in time, and tried to forestall a penalty by taking a time out. it's a blunder, no two ways about it.



Thank you, but that wasn't my explanation, that's what the coach actually said in interview.

As an athlete, I'd say icing doesn't work, and as has been offered, could actually hamper, whether it give time to clear snow, test the wind, or allow the kicker to gather himself. I wouldn't say it NEVER works, though. It's basically a form of intimidation, a mind game. No different than the weigh-in staredown in fighting, or the inside fastball in baseball. If you're focused, as any professional making a million dollars should be, it doesn't matter. My golf buddies contantly put the cart in reverse so it beeps on my backswing, I couldn't care less. But like Nareed, I think it's a viable strategy. I would suspect in a high stress situation (Scott Norwood, anyone?) the chances of success may rise.

At the very least it should give time for the defense to catch their breath and incite themselves into a riot for the block.
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Wizard
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December 5th, 2011 at 9:07:45 PM permalink
Quote: Nareed

But I can see the point in trying. The game is riding on the kicker at this point, or the tie. So he's under a lot of pressure. If you could get him to stop before he kicks, the idea is the added idle time just leaves him more time to ponder the consequences of failure.



Again, the book tries to make the case that this is intended reason, but statistics show it doesn't help. The general theme of the book is that the professional level the athletes are good enough to be able to cope with pressure and other emotions. I've been saying for years that psychology plays very little effect in sports. You hear all the time arguments about what side to bet on according to who wants the win more, who is confident, who isn't. Nonsense. These are supposed to be professional athletes who want to win every game as long as the outcome matters.

Don't take it from me, read the book yourself.
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FleaStiff
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December 6th, 2011 at 12:03:42 AM permalink
>>>Dummyhead stated that he saw the play clock at 6 seconds and his players were still shuffling into position.
>>Thems players what were doin' the Shuffle instead of steppin' smartly, ... were they new to football?
>>New to such concepts as "the clock" etc ?
Same thing for the coach! New to looking at the clock are you?

>>>Rather than risk the chance of a hurried play with unready players, or his kicker being in a rush and therefore distracted,
>>Oh, the poor things... I'm sure they would have burst into tears right there on the field what with being rushed or distracted.
And undoubtedly would be sent to do some couch time with a shrink for the damage they suffered.

>>>Now will someone answer the obvious question: What was the line? What happened to the bookies as a result of all this?
I repeat this. If its a last-minute play with a major alteration in the expected results and everyone starts thinking bonehead jerk, then look to the money, not the excuses.
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December 6th, 2011 at 6:34:08 AM permalink
Face, i mean the explanation you dug up. Whatever.

Quote: Wizard

Again, the book tries to make the case that this is intended reason, but statistics show it doesn't help.



Agreed. But no amount of statistical analysis and explanations about independent events will ever make the gambler with a hunch not believe red is due :) And the same thing happens in other fields, including football.

Quote:

I've been saying for years that psychology plays very little effect in sports.



That I'm not so sure about. A head coach has two jobs: running the team and keeping their spirits up. That counts, too. If you go into a game thinking "they're going to beat us like a drum," knowing you can't possibly win no matter what you do, you're not going to play the same way than if you think you're going to win. You'll hold back, not risk injuty, not make extra efforts, etc. The coach has to convince you to think otherwise.
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Mosca
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December 6th, 2011 at 6:36:56 AM permalink
Quote: Wizard

I recently finished reading the outstanding book Sportscasting. It is like Freakonomics, but is focused on dispelling myths about sports. One such myth is the value in "icing the kicker." There is no argument that it happens. However, statistics show that it actually has the opposite effect. While it is supposed to freak out the kicker, it actually gives him a free practice kick, which is helpful in judging the wind.

Granted the situation is not directly applicable to what you're talking about. Here Dallas iced their own kicker, and the first attempt was good, and the second bad. Perhaps they did it TO give the kicker the practice kick.



Wow, someone actually read a book I recommended!

I would say it's only partly about dispelling myths; it's more about revealing truths.
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Nareed
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December 6th, 2011 at 6:41:46 AM permalink
Quote: Mosca

I would say it's only partly about dispelling myths; it's more about revealing truths.



So what does it say about the "prevent" (is that the right word?) defense?
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December 6th, 2011 at 6:45:14 AM permalink
Quote: Nareed

For those who don't speak stark, raving mad, here's a summary of events:...

Thanks for that.

The first time I read dm's post, I was left with a feeling that I had no idea what the heck he was talking about.

And, quite frankly, I know the Cowboys are sometimes called "America's Team", but STILL couldn't make the connection.
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Nareed
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December 6th, 2011 at 6:53:22 AM permalink
Quote: DJTeddyBear

Thanks for that.



You're welcome. Do you need help with the blocking function? :)

Quote:

The first time I read dm's post, I was left with a feeling that I had no idea what the heck he was talking about.



I used to rant uncontrollably, though not in print, when the Steelers lost any game.

Quote:

And, quite frankly, I know the Cowboys are sometimes called "America's Team", but STILL couldn't make the connection.



Yeah, that's another thing I wish would stop. We all know how it came about, but it was wrong even then. Sure, Tom Landry was an imposing figure, a living legend really, and he used to coach with Lombardi. But the team that dominated the 70s was Pittsburgh, not Dallas. Had the Cowboys used a different logo, say a man on a horse, or a cowboy hat, the Sabol's would never have thought to call them that. It's the Lone Star on the helmet that let them get away with it.
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Mosca
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December 6th, 2011 at 7:39:26 AM permalink
Quote: Nareed

So what does it say about the "prevent" (is that the right word?) defense?



And here is one of the great things about ebooks: I can look it up here from work, when I get a chance I'll see.
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Nareed
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December 6th, 2011 at 8:06:23 AM permalink
Quote: Mosca

And here is one of the great things about ebooks: I can look it up here from work, when I get a chance I'll see.



Thanks.

Just for the record, the myth is that "it prevents you from winning." The NFL Net show dind't come to a conclussion about it. I find it amazing that in a close game, the team trailing can launch an impressive offense and advance rather easily when the clock is winding down. Just see the Packers last week, or what the Ravens did to the Steelers recently...
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thecesspit
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December 6th, 2011 at 8:12:05 AM permalink
The prevent defence... it prevents your team from winning.

Teams can go into the prevent far too soon, and it creates a lot of pressure on the man coverage deep... the area where WRs can really do damage... trading the pass rush for the defensive back can really back fire... don't create enough pressure, and the QB has the right skill set, you can play yourself in trouble. Your playing a free safety very deep, so that's one less player involved at all.

Plus, if you get RB fading into the short edges, he can get one and one on a Cornerback, and with some RBs, you don't want that to happen.

That said, 2nd and long, opponent is deep in it's own half, 30 seconds left, 6 defensive backs and 5 in the box can be fine. I've often seen the 6th back be a the team top wide reciever... he's played over the top, not to cover anyone but to ball hawk and spike it.
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Mosca
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December 6th, 2011 at 9:45:55 AM permalink
Quote: Nareed

So what does it say about the "prevent" (is that the right word?) defense?



Hardly anything, which is disappointing. The only mention is when it discusses Belichick's non-punt from a couple years ago: "One other thing to consider, however, that would also favor going for it over punting is the fact that the Patriots probably would adopt a more conservative defensive strategy or 'prevent' defense to guard against the deep ball if the Colts started on their own end of the field. This probably would allow Peyton Manning to march quickly down to the Patriots’ end of the field in less time than usual, making the decision to punt even less valuable."

Wertheim, L. Jon; Tobias Moskowitz (2011-01-19). Scorecasting: The Hidden Influences Behind How Sports Are Played and Games Are Won (Kindle Locations 962-965). Crown Archetype. Kindle Edition.

I'm cautious commenting on the prevent defense, because I don't have enough information. I agree that it appears to be pretty easily picked apart, but we never get to see what happens when it isn't used. Teams go into high risk/high reward offenses, and they usually either turn the ball over or win in those situations. The fact that the game ends at that point tends to favor that strategy, one that wouldn't be effective over an entire game. They either come from behind and win, or lose a game that they would have lost anyway. No one ever goes into the last minute up by 3 points and with the ball, and starts winging it to try and put up one more TD, for that reason.
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Nareed
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December 6th, 2011 at 11:07:41 AM permalink
Quote: Mosca

Hardly anything, which is disappointing. The only mention is when it discusses Belichick's non-punt from a couple years ago: "One other thing to consider, however, that would also favor going for it over punting is the fact that the Patriots probably would adopt a more conservative defensive strategy or 'prevent' defense to guard against the deep ball if the Colts started on their own end of the field. This probably would allow Peyton Manning to march quickly down to the Patriots’ end of the field in less time than usual, making the decision to punt even less valuable."



Did I read that right? essentially it says "If we punt the ball we'll play a wide-open defense that will allow the Colts to advance quickly. Therefore we'll try to advance the ball on 4th and 2." Why not just punt and play a regular defense???

Quote:

I'm cautious commenting on the prevent defense, because I don't have enough information.



That's my problem, too. Everything you hear about it seems to be inconclusive (bedies it sounds as though people say "Priven Defense").

And not to disagree with the rest of your post, but it seems like the defense just lets the offense advance, so long as the clock keeps ticking. And I can't shake 1) how the Steelers lost to the Ravens and 2) how they nearly let Kansas City (Kansas City!) almost snatch the game away. I keep telling myself the defense is run by Dick LeBeau, who is as good as they come, and that Tomlin was a defensive coordinator in the past. So they must be doing the best possible. But are they?
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Face
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December 6th, 2011 at 1:08:48 PM permalink
The Prevent Defense quote (prevent you from winning) is typically attributed to John Madden.

Technically, the prevent defense is one in which you have no more than 4 rushers (sometime as few as 1), and the rest (usually DB's or even receivers) fall back in coverage. This in itself isn't a bad thing. The old school 4-6 defense is "prevent", yet can be nasty in certain situations and can be used at any point in the field, at any time during the game. "Dime" and "quarter" packages are technically "prevent defenses", and are often used throughout the game, with good results.

Now, my friends an I use "prevent" more specifically. Prevent to us means the 7 to 10 non rushing players play a soft zone, giving up basically everything but the deep ball. In this sense, yes, prevent is stupid and sucks, other than for the Hail Mary attempt or long drives with VERY little time left. Running this "bend but don't break" scheme regularly is going to get you killed in todays game with the Bradys and the Rogers.
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December 6th, 2011 at 1:32:51 PM permalink
It's not just the QBs, it's the WR who can make yards after catch. There's some who are deadly one on one if they get time to set after getting the ball.
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Mosca
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December 6th, 2011 at 1:37:48 PM permalink
Quote: Nareed

Did I read that right? essentially it says "If we punt the ball we'll play a wide-open defense that will allow the Colts to advance quickly. Therefore we'll try to advance the ball on 4th and 2." Why not just punt and play a regular defense???



That was part of a larger point positing that he made the right choice that didn't work out; the quote is an aside to an entire chapter discussing the value of using the 4th down to score rather than as field position.

Let me add this quote from Pat Kirwan's excellent Take Your Eye Off the Ball:

Quote:

Q: If prevent defenses never seem to stop an offense’s momentum, why are they used so frequently?

A: The prevent defense has the clock on its side. All the defense has to do is keep the play in bounds and keep the clock running. Coaches know the offense will take shots deep against them, so they’ll protect deep against the quick score, and they’ll defend the sidelines. They can do that because they don’t really have to defend anything in the middle of the field. A lot of fans prefer that their team just stick with the defensive scheme that put it in position to win the game. But you have to remember that your team was playing that defense when the offense was in a different set of circumstances. When your defense was working, the offense was still trying to run the ball. Now, the opponent is probably going to abandon the run and is in four-down territory. What your team had been doing all game long no longer applies.



Kirwan, Pat; Seigerman, David (2010-09-14). Take Your Eye off the Ball (Kindle Locations 2322-2330). Triumph Books. Kindle Edition.


Nothing we didn't know already, and somewhat disagree with.
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Nareed
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December 6th, 2011 at 9:13:44 PM permalink
Quote: Face

The Prevent Defense quote (prevent you from winning) is typically attributed to John Madden.



It's odd to think the team that played dirtiest at the time would adopt such a seemingly timid defense, isn't it?
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December 6th, 2011 at 9:21:25 PM permalink
Quote: Mosca

Let me add this quote from Pat Kirwan's excellent Take Your Eye Off the Ball:



Sure. I even look at it like that when the Steelers try it. I keep telling myself "the clock's still running," and "no way they'll score before they run out of time." And then the Ravens score anyway... Or consider how Green bay took all of 14 seconds to get into field goal position the other day.

Oh, well...
Donald Trump is a fucking criminal
Nareed
Nareed
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December 11th, 2011 at 9:20:20 PM permalink
It seems there's one kicker who can be successfully iced...

Not really. But I had to get that dig in. of course it's not the kicker's fault someone got a hand on the ball after it was kicked. Still, it's odd Dallas has lost two games in a row after their kicker was iced. At least this time the other team did it.
Donald Trump is a fucking criminal
pacomartin
pacomartin
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July 19th, 2013 at 1:40:45 PM permalink
Quote: Wizard

It is like Freakonomics, but is focused on dispelling myths about sports.



Tim Harford is a young British economist whose lectures are along the lines of Freakonomics.

In particular I might recommend his lectures in 14 minute podcasts.

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