Vegas X Train

Is the railroad from CA to Vegas ever going to happen? The Desert Wind
stopped service in 1997.



Vegas X Train

Quote: EvenBob

Is the railroad from CA to Vegas ever going to happen? The Desert Wind stopped service in 1997.

The X train is a limited service, very expensive, very slow way to get to Las Vegas. Emphasis is on the quality of the trip. Travel time will be comparable to the 4.5-5.0 hours of the Desert Wind.


The Desert Xpress is slated to start construction this year with test runs in 2013. It is only 190 miles in length which it traverses in 80 minutes without any intermediate stops.It remains to be seen how much use it will get as it goes from Victorville CA to somewhere near the Mandalay Bay (long walk to nearest major casino). Roughly 11 million people a year currently make this drive, and the DesertXpress thinks it will take 5 million of those people out of cars. Most predictions in Europe of new train ridership are extremely optimistic. It is a given that at least 1 million tickets per year will be bought by the casinos and given as comps to solo drivers who gamble at a certain level.

What happened to the old Desert Wind tracks? Are they still there
or will they have to lay all new track. Thats gets to be very expensive.

How cool is this? Its the old Union Pacific Vegas train station, built in 1940.
They tore to down in the late 60's to build the Plaza Hotel. What a shame.




]

Quote: EvenBob

Is the railroad from CA to Vegas ever going to happen? The Desert Wind
stopped service in 1997.

We will see if it is somehow part of the pork to be called a "Jobs Bill" next week. Train service gave way to automobiles and airplanes for a reason.

Think about how convenient it was. Get on the train in LA
in 1947, get off the train at the Vegas station, which was
right at Fremont st, where the Plaza in now. There was no
Strip, Downtown was where all the action was.

Here's the station they built in 1906. Why they tore it down
in 1940 is a mystery. I had forgotten the Plaza was called
the Union Plaza until the 90's. The railroad owned 67 acres
at that location.

Quote: EvenBob

What happened to the old Desert Wind tracks? Are they still there
or will they have to lay all new track. Thats gets to be very expensive.

Desert Wind never had dedicated tracks. It shares tracks with freight trains and with Amtrak's Southwest Chief which connects Los Angeles and Chicago. The Southwest Chief still runs daily. Shipping through the El Cajon pass has increased to the point that they had to squeeze in a third rail line to share the pass with Interstate 15. The DesertXpress is avoiding that difficult terrain with it's steep gradients and just loading people in Victorville. Most people will arrive in Victorville by car, although a few will come by bus. They will lay their own new tracks for 190 miles. However, it is a plain jane regional track by standards in Europe and Asia. They could never achieve those speeds and frequencies by using exisitng rail. The X train will use freight rails.

There is discussion of extending the regional rail in Los Angeles through the El Cajon pass and connecting to the Victorville Desert X Press train station. Alternatively, a line could be built to Palmdale where there is another regional rail station (see photo).



In any case the San Andreas fault crosses the El Cajon pass. It is the only portion of the San Andreas fault not to have slipped in the last 300 years. It is not a question of "if" but "when". The last time the ground developed cliffs up to 15 feet high (within 20 miles of I15).

Here's one of the club cars on the XTrain. Is it possible
gambling will be legal while its in NV?

Quote: EvenBob

Here's one of the club cars on the XTrain. Is it possible
gambling will be legal while its in NV?

That is their intention. I think it is also their intention to get you plenty drunk, and possibly even have strippers and bachelor parties while you are in California. That way you will be trashed once you begin gambling in NV.


Rather than spend a fortune on laying track to get you to Vegas faster, they are going to take your money and see that you enjoy the time.

I think that we can look forward to masters of excess like Lil' Wayne using this train.

Quote: EvenBob

Here's one of the club cars on the XTrain. Is it possible gambling will be legal while its in NV?

That is their intention. I think it is also their intention to get you plenty drunk, and possibly even have strippers and bachelor parties while you are in California. That way you will be trashed once you begin gambling in NV.


Rather than spend a fortune on laying track to get you to Vegas faster, they are going to take your money and see that you enjoy the time.

I think that we can look forward to masters of excess like Lil' Wayne using this train.

Quote: pacomartin

That is their intention.

But the majority of the 5 hour trip will be in CA, I'll
bet its about an hour to Vegas by train when
you get to the NV border.

Quote: EvenBob

But the majority of the 5 hour trip will be in CA, I'll bet its about an hour to Vegas by train when you get to the NV border.

There projections are reasonably modest however. They are saying that they can do 5 round trips per week carrying 915.2 round trip passengers per train. The base price will be $199 per person, and they expect to earn $23 round trip on board the train pp/trip, and an additional $28 pp/trip from rooms, show tickets, tours, golf packages, rental cars, transfers, restaurants, and club bookings. For instance they think they can get $5.40 pp/trip for finding people rooms. I think they are counting on winning $8 pp/trip on gambling.

I assume that for $199 per person you would get at least one drink each way.

Lux Bus charges $104 round trip. Greyhound charges $61, $88, or $129 for their three fares, and the bus ride can take 5 to 8 hours depending on transfers. But 5 hours transit is only overnight when there is no traffic.

The X-train will make a modest EBITDA of $15 per person per round trip. But they intend to add a 2nd train by their 3rd year. Then they want to add 6 more trains for a total of 8 by the end of their 5th year of operations. Profit would be fairly substantial by then.

What will be the incentive to take the train. You can fly nonstop
from LAX to LAS in an hour for $100 to $150 RT, almost any time
you like.

Quote: EvenBob

What will be the incentive to take the train. You can fly nonstop
from LAX to LAS in an hour for $100 to $150 RT, almost any time
you like.

Very little. It might appeal to a few people like me who prefer to travel by train when time is not of the essence (in some cases, it's actually less hassle than air travel), but sadly, I can't see it appealing to many at that price.

I assume you've seen the idea/formative plan to tunnel under the Bering Strait and eventually connect the TransSiberia Railway with Alaska, BC and the rest of North America? The main reason for it is not really the freight, but the oil/gas pipelines that would go down there as well. If, (and it'll be at least 15-20 years) it ever happens, it would be theoretically possible to travel from London to New York, the wrong way round, by train.

I'm saving for my retirement....

Quote: EvenBob

What will be the incentive to take the train. You can fly nonstop from LAX to LAS in an hour for $100 to $150 RT, almost any time you like.

I tried Southwest and got round trip fares of $86 if I gave three weeks notice from LAX to LAS. But the cheapest fares were $250 for short term notice. There are other costs associated with flying that you may not pay with a train.

The initial train may be more attractive to last minute customers. But the question is can you fill 5 round trip trains with 915.2 passengers per train based on people who can't get a flight. Plus it's a lot cheaper to rent a car and share costs and drive with just two of you. I rented a car for just $30 one way including drop off charges to drive from LAS to SAN DIEGO.

Inherent in a lot of these rail plans is the projection that airports in Southern California will fill to capacity, and they won't be able to waste runway slots on planes flying the short distance to Vegas. The cost of airfare will rise dramatically. Full fare refundable plane tickets are well over $198 round trip.

The problem is that after 9/11 ridership slipped massively in Southern California. Then it picked up again, but fell again during the recession. The day of reckoning keeps getting closer and then slipping away.

But yes, if you were paying $199 per person plus the $23 for stuff on the train, + $28 in fees by allowing them to book golf tours, etc. for you that would add up to a great deal for two people, and even more for three. For three people you could probably hire a town car with a divider so that you can sit in the back and drink and have a driver.


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The economics of the Desert Xpress are equally daunting. It is 85 miles of urban driving to get from downtown Los Angeles to Victorville. Now the round trip price is $100. You get two 190 miles trips through the desert that take only 80 minutes each way. That is about double the speed of driving the distance at 71 mph. But you still have to wait for the train in Victorville, and get some public transportation or a taxi to your hotel in Vegas. You will use up some of your time and spend the a fair amount of money.

Even as a single driver you have to figure in fatigue and cost of gas. But then you don't have a car if you want one in Vegas.

The X-train is hoping to get 1/4 million passengers at $199 per person round trip for the 5.5 hour each way trip. The DesertXpress is hoping to get 5 million passengers at $100 per person round trip for 80 minute each way trip. But X-train is hoping to ramp up to 2 million passengers after 5 years. DesertXpress is hoping to ramp up to 10 million in a few years.


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Personally, I think that the significant statistics is that Singapore Sands is making $2.4 billion in annual gaming revenue plus another $600 million in non-gaming revenue. It stands as an example of a project that enhances the tourist potential of a major Pacific city without becoming tawdry. How long is California going to watch it's revenue go to Nevada and to Indian casinos. I think you will see California change it's laws, and build a 10K room mega casino resort in Los Angeles and another smaller one in San Francisco.

It'll be a bust, if indeed it ever gets built. Its too expensive, too
long a trip, too inconvenient. Train trips sound cool, but tend to
be very boring in this day and age. In 1948 they were cutting
edge. The world was much slower then.

Quote: EvenBob

How cool is this? Its the old Union Pacific Vegas train station, built in 1940.]

Love the Union Pacific Vegas train station pictures. Thanks for posting them.

I wonder, Paco, how much of your relentless posting on this matter comes down to you just like trains :)

Quote: EvenBob

It'll be a bust, if indeed it ever gets built. Its too expensive, too
long a trip, too inconvenient. Train trips sound cool, but tend to
be very boring in this day and age. In 1948 they were cutting
edge. The world was much slower then.

Trains in the dense northeast corridor make a lot of sense in some cases. Intra-California they may eventually make some sense as the populated parts of the state mostly follow the coast. Beyond 400 miles or so, even less, train trips have to be sold on "getting there is half the fun." This is not a big sale as most people will be bored of the train in about 2 hours. Do people really want to get loaded and gamble on a train when they are going to LV? And what about the return trip--people will be gambled and drank out of energy and money so far less "extra" revenue on that line.

But who wants to bet against high-speed rail being part of the "jobs bill" BHO is proposing later this week?

Quote: AZDuffman

And what about the return trip--people will be gambled and drank out of energy and money so far less "extra" revenue on that line.

On the tram at the airport, look at the people around you on the
way into Vegas. They're always happy and excited. Look at those
same people on the way out of Vegas. They have scowls on their
faces, look exhausted and almost drugged. That will be the long train
ride back to CA if the RR ever gets built. Oh boy.

Compelling argument is the top 10 busiest city pairs (airline traffic) in the United States. The only short ones are LA to Las Vegas, and to Phoenix.

Compounding the argument is that LAX has agreed not to build any more runways, and will begin closing gates once the passenger load reaches a certain level. In addition John Wayne, Burbank, Long Beach, and San Diego are all reaching capacity. It is also projected that Ontario will fill up very quickly once their are no other choices.

As I said earlier, the projections have been fouled up twice, by 9-11 and by the 2008 recession.

The fact that (New York City & Philadelphia) or (NYC & Washington DC) are not on the list is a testament to the fact that it is the one intercity group that it is more practical to travel by train.

Busiest air routes by city pairs in or from the United States (outbound plus inbound, including connecting passengers):

Rank	City 1	City 2	Passengers (2009)
1	New York City or Newark	Miami, Fort Lauderdale or West Palm Beach	8,748,534
2	Los Angeles	San Francisco or Oakland	6,306,638
3	Atlanta	Miami, Fort Lauderdale or West Palm Beach	5,045,415
4	New York City or Newark	Chicago	4,705,007
5	New York City or Newark	Atlanta	4,544,176
6	New York City or Newark	Los Angeles	4,355,755
7	New York City or Newark	Orlando	4,032,427
8	New York City or Newark	London, England	3,881,558
9	Los Angeles	Las Vegas	3,733,037
10	Los Angeles	Phoenix	3,434,874

LA to Phoenix? Whats in Phoenix, I've been there and
never want to go back.

Quote: JohnnyQ

Love the Union Pacific Vegas train station pictures. Thanks for posting them.

I'm a sucker for Art Deco designs. In the 20's, 30's, and 40's, the term Art Deco
didn't exist. It was just the style of the day. It wasn't till 1964, at the Paris Expo, that
they finally found a name for the period and Art Deco was born. Here's the Deco
station in Cincinatti about 1935. Very cool.

Quote: EvenBob

LA to Phoenix? Whats in Phoenix, I've been there and never want to go back.

It is
236 miles from LAX to Las Vegas.

308 miles from LAX to San Jose California,
336 miles from LAX to Oakland,
338 miles from LAX to San Francisco,
358 miles from LAX to Sacramento.

109 miles from LAX to San Diego.
369 miles from LAX to Phoenix.


So while it is slightly closer to Las Vegas, considering the amount of traffic, the real waste of airports is moving all those people from southern to northern California. With projections for California population to grow to 50 million, this region will choke without a train.