Casino Wars (not what you're thinking)

Does it strike anyone that the interplay between advatage players and casinos is a little bit like a war?

First there's the casino existing along as usual, making money in the long term and suffering occasional big payouts. Then the APs show up and begin to upset the casino's long term winnings. Next the casinos device a countermeasure, or a raft of them. From there the APs figure how to get around the countermeasures. Then the casino figures out how to stop that. And so on.

So that's the question for today, with a new exciting choice in non-answer.

Of course the actions by both sides, casinos and APs, have consequences for regular players, skilled players (non-AP skilled, like basic strategy players), and even bad players. This also raises a different question: is the evolution of casino games driven in aprt by the AP-Casino interplay? Do new games have to pass an anti-AP muster of some kind?

Quote: Nareed

Does it strike anyone that the interplay between advatage players and casinos is a little bit like a war?

Perhaps by that you mean that they are senseless, futile and a waste of resources? Of course in war there is a real enemy, perhaps manufactured but at least real. With card counting... it may not even be a real enemy, merely a perceived one.

Quote: Nareed

This also raises a different question: is the evolution of casino games driven in aprt by the AP-Casino interplay? Do new games have to pass an anti-AP muster of some kind?

Not formally, but that sort of testing happens all the time on the floor. The proof is, as one gaming operator recently told me, in the pudding. If the numbers work, the game can stay. If they don't, out it goes. If APs come in and make the table dump, very few operators are going to wait for a game developer to make it better. The smart game developers look at AP exploits before releasing games, but sometimes that doesn't happen. I've heard anecdotal stories of new games going in, then an AP or two figuring out a glaring exploit, and then the table loses thousands of dollars in a short amount of time. Perhaps some of the Vegas locals can elaborate on the history here. (I'm not a Vegas local anymore...)

Note that "exploitable by an AP" doesn't necessarily mean "the house will lose". The degree of exploitability matters too, and if a game is countable but has a minimal impact on the casino's hold, intelligent operators won't care.

To me, It's just business.

I think it's definitely a war...you just have to stay on top of things to survive...
People often ask me why I do it, since they *KNOW* gambling is a losing proposition...
I tell them that it's a challenge for me to make it a break-even proposition, and so they ask me "Why do it if it's not fun?"
I tell them that it's FUN to outsmart the casino. (Believe me it's actually harder than my ACTUAL job, to beat the casino's LEGALLY.)

Quote: TIMSPEED

I tell them that it's FUN to outsmart the casino.

Playing isn't fun. Being in the casino isn't fun. The
whole hassle of all of it isn't fun. But I have to agree,
outsmarting the game is a boatload of fun. And when
you outsmart the game, you outsmart the casino.
Screw them, they deserve it..

Very few players take the position that it's them against the cards or dice by the rules of the game - as the cards fall or as the dice simply roll.

It's "how can I beat the system," how can I beat the dealer," "how can I beat rules," and "anything that I can get away with okay."
Anything to avoid being statisfied by playing the game by the rules.
A lot of the "juice" people seek comes more from a "what can I pull" attitude instead of focusing on the action of the game itself by the rules.

I was asked isn't BJ like poker-room poker? NO.
In Poker all knowledge and descernment including espionage is okay player-to-player. The house takes a rake from each match.
The rules going into BJ are different:
1. The premise is that it's not suppose to be countable or to use that premise going in, on a house banked game.
2. Rules may be adopted to thwart counters (tracking bet raises, setting repoint shuffles, etc.) and are to be accepted as normal play rules, above and beyound the accepted rules of DAS, DOA, hit soft 17 etc..

Advanatges from hole-carding are wrong, and flush-mount shuffler machines were produced to thwart this effect.

The cat-and-mouse game apply to those participants, there are some happy to enjoy a game run cleanly, who are viewd as wimps and candy-asses at times. ("The dealer over paid me, so I paid her back. Good.") A dealer mistake doesn't make it yours, it gets corrected, and the player's response to such a situation announces the level upon which he operates.

Quote: Paigowdan

The rules going into BJ are different:
1. The premise is that it's not suppose to be countable or to use that premise going in, on a house banked game.

Dan- can you share the reference? Where in any official casino rule book, gaming commission rule, etc... do you get the facts to make that statement? I've always thought that there never is a rule which prevents a player from counting cards. I also understand that the house has the right to shuffle any time it wants, and request a player not play a game any time it wants (back off). When the cards are shown in plain view of all participants, by definition, the casino KNOWS that all the players have access to that information. If the casino does not want players to use that openly available information, it should either reshuffle after each hand, or use the CSM.

.....

Quote: Paigowdan

Very few players take the position that it's them against the

Its my game against their game. They have a
game to make money, so do I.

My biggest complaint about AP is that it is too often used as an excuse when the drop is reduced due to poor management,
rude dealers, stupid pit bosses, etc.
In Colorado Max bet was $5 and minimum $5, Have seen double deck games shuffled with over a deck remaining. And I
mean an extensive shuffle. Then pit closed after 2 months. Some casinos had 8 deck shoes with cut card at midpoint.
HEY $5 at all times. Why even shuffle !!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!

Quote: MathExtremist

Not formally, but that sort of testing happens all the time on the floor.

Do you figure a casino doing field trial on a new game would hire people to try to find out how to beat it? Would other casinos do that about new games being tested elsewhere?

Quote:

The smart game developers look at AP exploits before releasing games, but sometimes that doesn't happen.

That's very interesting.

Here, suppose a developer comes up with a game. There's some way to beat it, but it's either very subtle or very complex, or both. the game's a big hit, not on a par with BJ or craps, but it find its way into, say, half the major casinos in Vegas. When that happens, the developer descends upon the city with a team of confederates and a HUGE bankroll. In one day they clean up and, of course, vanish into thin air.

Morally that would constitute fraud. I'm not sure whether it would legally as well, or whether it could be proven in court. Either way the casinos would be pissed, to put it mildly, and filled with murderous rage, to put it even more mildly. The distributor would be caught in the middle, too.

Sounds like an idea.... Thanks!

OMG Sounds like the script for OCEANS 14.

Quote: buzzpaff

OMG Sounds like the script for OCEANS 14.

there's really no need to get nasty. If you think it's a bad idea just say so :P

Chill out. I meant it as a compliment. Your idea has more merit as a movie plot than Oceans 12 & 13.

Quote: buzzpaff

Chill out. I meant it as a compliment. Your idea has more merit as a movie plot than Oceans 12 & 13.

You missed the smiley (:P) too :)

There's a big problem with the idea. I'd need to develop a game that's believable as a big hit and that has a subtle/complex weakness which can be exploited for BIG money. And that's way beyond me; I'd be more likely to develop practical nuclear fusion.