Definition of a Carnival Game

Help solve a workplace disagreement.

The true definition of 'Carnival Games' (if there is one) is unknown to us. Some games are obvious, while others fall to one side or another depending on opinion. Does anyone know of an exact definition?

Games like Let It Ride, Carribean Stud Poker, Three Card Poker and Big 6 Wheel are obvious, however others are not. To me, 'Carnival Games' generally must meet three criteria. 1) HA is excessive. 2) Requires minimum skill. 3) Must have low minimums to lure the unknowing. The above games meet these criteria, but some games are on the fence.

Baccarat and Mini-Bac - A totally brainless game comparable to flipping a coin, albeit with a really thick edge (tie). However minimums are pretty steep (esp Big Bac) and the odds are pretty good. Generally not considered 'Carnival'. Why?
Roulette - Another brainless game, more terrible odds, and pretty low minimums, yet not considered Carnival. Why?
Pai Gow Poker - Higher minimums, not bad odds (when figuring the 'banking' option), and requires moderate skill, yet is considered Carnival. Why?

These games don't have to be answered individually, they merely serve as examples in forming opinions. Anyone know the real answer?

WAG (Wild Ass Guess) -

ANY casino game other than Craps, Baccarat, and Black Jack is considered a Carnival game.

Frankly. I'm not sure about Roulette or Pai Gow Tiles.

I.E. Serious gamblers play only those 'pure' games. Anything else is for the recreational gambler, who might as well be at a carnival.



FYI: Poker is an exception in that it isn't a casino game. Players play against each other, not the house.

LMGIFY

"A carnival game is a game of chance or skill that can be seen at a traveling carnival, charity fund raiser, amusement park, or on a state and county fair midway."

Weaselman -

Nice try, but there's a HUGE difference between a carnival game and a casino carnival game.

Quote: DJTeddyBear

Weaselman -

Nice try, but there's a HUGE difference between a carnival game and a casino carnival game.

Casino? Who mentioned casino? The question was what is the definition of a carnival game.
BTW, what is the "huge difference" you are referring to? I mean other than the latter is played in a casino? :)

Quote: Face

Help solve a workplace disagreement.

The true definition of 'Carnival Games' (if there is one) is unknown to us. Some games are obvious, while others fall to one side or another depending on opinion. Does anyone know of an exact definition?

Games like Let It Ride, Carribean Stud Poker, Three Card Poker and Big 6 Wheel are obvious, however others are not. To me, 'Carnival Games' generally must meet three criteria. 1) HA is excessive. 2) Requires minimum skill. 3) Must have low minimums to lure the unknowing. The above games meet these criteria, but some games are on the fence.

Baccarat and Mini-Bac - A totally brainless game comparable to flipping a coin, albeit with a really thick edge (tie). However minimums are pretty steep (esp Big Bac) and the odds are pretty good. Generally not considered 'Carnival'. Why?
Roulette - Another brainless game, more terrible odds, and pretty low minimums, yet not considered Carnival. Why?
Pai Gow Poker - Higher minimums, not bad odds (when figuring the 'banking' option), and requires moderate skill, yet is considered Carnival. Why?

These games don't have to be answered individually, they merely serve as examples in forming opinions. Anyone know the real answer?

When I was in dealer school the instructor broke it up like this as to types of "table games":


Poker Room-a seperate entity from table games

BJ, Roulette, Craps--the three "main" table games

"Asian" Games-- Baccarat, Mini-Bac, Pai-Gow, PG Tiles----not all of them but he took care to say these are not (or no longer) "carnival" games but "asian" games. Common threads seems to be they take longer to learn to deal and were not invented the last few years

Carnival Games--just about anything at a table that is not the above.

Quote: Face

Baccarat and Mini-Bac - A totally brainless game comparable to flipping a coin, albeit with a really thick edge (tie). However minimums are pretty steep (esp Big Bac) and the odds are pretty good. Generally not considered 'Carnival'. Why?

Baccarat used to be a relatively complex game, similar to 21, potentially even with an element of using tells. What is played now is a bastardized and dumbed-down shadow of what it used to be, where all decisions are preset so as to speed it up. Nonetheless, even the modern version is at least ahead of roulette in terms of player involvement. Baccarat retains its high-class reputation just by inertia.

I'd actually quite like to play real baccarat someday, but seeing the advance of slots it doesn't look like this is ever going to happen, other than games with friends.

Quote: Face

Roulette - Another brainless game, more terrible odds, and pretty low minimums, yet not considered Carnival. Why?

Why would it be? It's a traditional game.
Carnival games, the way I understand it, are first of all novelties. Give a glorified coin flip a good history, dress it up, and you have a classy game. Take Russian Roulette, even worse odds, lowest return in the house, but not a carnival game either.

Quote: Face

Pai Gow Poker - Higher minimums, not bad odds (when figuring the 'banking' option), and requires moderate skill, yet is considered Carnival. Why?

Novelty game with a ridiculous name and even more ridiculous origin. But now more thought of as an 'Asian game'.


Overall, I'd say being a carnival game is more about 1) novelty, 2) novelty, reference to other games (Caribbean stud) or other secondary elements being the primary appeal. Although, of course, it can't be overly intellectual either.

Yipes!! You want precision and a sensible rational classification scheme?

I think the Gaming Commission types have nonsensical categories and consider Bingo to be a table game or some such nonsense. They've even got a whole polysylabic mouthful for what everyone else calls Airport Slots.

Carnival games? Big Six is traditionally at the entrance to a carnival because it is so simple and so visible to passersby since the wheel is above the heads of the players. All variants that a dealer would consider to be Punishment Duty are carnival games: LIR, 3CP, Carribbean Stud Poker, etc. A craps dealer who fouls up and has to do three shifts at LIR as pennance won't argue that LIR is a carnival game. Some nit pickers on this board probably will.

Baccarat ain't no carnival game, its too mainstream even though its about as mindless as pulling that bandits one arm. Besides, anything that has so much money wagered on it ain't gonna be ridiculed with a derogatory term.

Even slots, the most mindless of them all will never be referred to as carnival simply because they are too profitable to be so maligned. People think slots when they hear the word casino even if they would never play slot machines. I doubt a casino can have profitable BJ and Craps pits if they don't also have lots of slot machines around the place. And yeah, some carnival games probably draw in a few rubes every now and then.

So what is a carnival game's proper definition? You can ask the casino owner. He will be back shortly, he is depositing the take from those silly games right now. He probably has a different opinion than the dealers have or the players have.

Carnival game's

You should also classify Table game that the casino has changed in any way from the way they were designed to start with! (6/5 BJ) craps tables that they put stuff under the felt, or make the table so bouncy that the dice will not stay on the table.

Any craps table that still has two times odds, although most players will never think of things like that they are carnival games , when you can go right across the street and get a better gamble for your money!

The casinos are just taking advantage of the player that knows no better!

All you have to do is go south of the strip on Las Vegas Blvd, and you will find a large casino that has on of the worst craps games in Vegas, and yet you have players playing there. It just amazes me when I go in there to find players on their tables!

Very concise and to the point AZ, I thank you. I think I remember you saying you're in the industry. Is your answer based on fact, general consensus or simply your opinion? I suppose it doesn't matter either way as it pretty much matched what I thought, I'm just a curious fellow and would like to know. You are not under oath nor will there be a test at the end of this thread, but you never know when you're going to be on Jeopardy! and I'd prefer to know your source =).

And thanks for your input too, P90. I personally never considered Bac or the Devils Game to be carnival, but their properties mixed with my definition of 'Carnival' i.e. no skill involved, which kind of punched a hole in my simple definition.

So I guess to put it into one simple sentence, a Carnival Game is a newer, non-standard game, with bad odds, low minimums and typically involves little to no skill. Does that about sum it up?

P.S. I love the idea of 6:5 being considered carnival, as only a clown would play it. No offense to any clowns who may read this.

I don't think you can get a precise definition for what is basically an insult. Keno pays worse than many recently invented games, but because it has a history well over a hundred years, is not usully lumped in with other carnival games.

Very hard question.

Quote: pacomartin

I don't think you can get a precise definition for what is basically an insult. Keno pays worse than many recently invented games, but because it has a history well over a hundred years, is not usully lumped in with other carnival games.

Hmmm. Well, Keno I typically group with Bingo as they are similar in nature, and also both Class II gaming (I think). Video Keno I group with Slots, since they too are both similar (stare vacantly at flashy lights and watch you pockets get light). I almost said 'Electronic Games' but the VP'ers of the board would have drawn and quartered me...VP gets its own little group. None of the above would I ever consider 'Carnival' because, at least in my eyes, Carnival's are specifically Table Games. So maybe, to fine tune my definition, a newer, non-standard TABLE GAME, with bad odds, low minimums, and generally little skill involved. =D

/sigh. Double post removed.

Quote: Face

So I guess to put it into one simple sentence, a Carnival Game is a newer, non-standard game, with bad odds, low minimums and typically involves little to no skill.

I would say a game without a respectable history. It's not as much about time passed as about games with a history being "grandfathered in", while the rest don't get that. Wheel of Fortune will remain a carnival game no matter what.

Low minimums and bad odds just contribute to the lack of respect.

Quote: P90

Low minimums and bad odds just contribute to the lack of respect.

Wait, this is the second time I've heard this. Are you saying that Carnival Games by having sad odds are disrespectful, or that my DEFINITION is itself disrespectful? I don't want to offend anybody and am prepared to tweak it.

I'm saying a new game that has either good or beatable odds (VP) or is relatively intellectual (new live poker variants) or otherwise separates itself from the crowd will command a measure of respect and attention that will place it either with other good games or into its own category. Casino classics command respect for being classics. But new games without anything going for them are going to be considered carnival games.

If forced to a definition, I would say a "carnival game" is one where the casino has to pay the owner a lease to offer the game. To cover such fees, carnival games generally have a house edge of at least 3% and usually at least one side bet. Eventually a carnival game will turn into a common domain game, as was the case with pai gow poker.

Where this definition gives me pause is games like Dan's EZ Pai Gow, which could be argued is an improvement over the original and carries a comparable house edge. I hate to insult it with the "carnival" label. My own game Ties Win Blackjack also had a house edge about the same as regular blackjack, so I would bristle if somebody called it a carnival game, which my own definition would call for.

Personally, I would prefer to not see the term used at all. Perhaps casino games should be either "classic" or "new."

Quote: Wizard

My own game Ties Win Blackjack also had a house edge about the same as regular blackjack, so I would bristle if somebody called it a carnival game, which my own definition would call for.

I'm actually surprised that game has not taken off wider or even been invented earlier. "Ties win" is a very attractive rule, while novice and even many intermediate players either don't understand doubling and splitting very well or don't like it very much, and would easily trade it for winning ties and never look back.

Though, if there is a lease involved in implementing it, seems like it could be hard for a casino to justify it.

BTW I wouldn't consider "Carnival game" entirely an insult, I'm pretty sure Wheel of Fortune is proud to bear that label.

O.K......

Carnival Game \ noun. 1. "An in-no-way disrespectful term used to decribe a new, non-standard, proprietary Casino Table Game which has less than favorable odds, low minimums, requires minimal skill to play, and support one or more side bets. Usually considered a ripoff with the exception of Dan's EZ Pai Gow and Shax's Ties Win Blackjack, because those are pretty ace." 2. An archaic term used to describe the above, less used than the now more accepted term "New". Antonym - "Classic".

Now, if there are no more objections.... =D

Quote: Face

Very concise and to the point AZ, I thank you. I think I remember you saying you're in the industry. Is your answer based on fact, general consensus or simply your opinion? I suppose it doesn't matter either way as it pretty much matched what I thought, I'm just a curious fellow and would like to know. You are not under oath nor will there be a test at the end of this thread, but you never know when you're going to be on Jeopardy! and I'd prefer to know your source =).

Not in the industry, only tried dealing school; BUT that is the definition I got when I asked a shift-manager level employee the same question.