Casinos and Ethics

Quote: odiousgambit

Quote: harris

To be honest I don't know how to help the problem gamblers I encounter, do you?
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I've always said that other types of addiction can bring a person to the point where it's clear they either quit or they will die. Gambling addiction is different in that you can get into all kinds of dire straits financially, including possible prison time owing to desperation, but your chances of dying are not really involved. That is quite a unique challenge to going straight
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Addiction to drugs and alcohol involves trading off an immediate pleasure versus the long-term prospect of dieing early. I know people who have chosen to die from alcoholism (and did indeed die) and people who have tried heroin and said they would be willing to die in one year for the pleasure of being on heroin for one year. So, addiction to substances is complicated.

Yes ... my point is it's a clear decision to live or die that the gambling addict doesn't get

Applied math is applied math whether it's insurance underwriting, stock trading algorithms, advertising metrics, or casino game design, it's all probability modeling. Some relatives will always hold moral objections to the gaming sector, so it's best to agree to disagree and focus on your career growth. Good luck with the new job!

Quote: odiousgambit

Yes ... my point is it's a clear decision to live or die that the gambling addict doesn't get
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Gambling addiction has the highest rate of suicide out of all addictions, which I imagine is due to debt-related problems.

There are many other addictions which won't kill you but will cause major problems in your life like porn addiction, shopping addiction, and other behavioral addictions. I don't think gambling addiction is a unique problem.

Another interesting fact I found is that high IQ correlates with alcoholism while low IQ correlates with gambling addiction.

As your aunt, I'd probably say, "couldn't you work in a more positive industry" to make good money?

So, I guess I don't have what I consider a good defense for you.

Quote: AutomaticMonkey

My observation is that the most addictive form of gaming is video poker, even for advantage players for whom video poker is part of the skill set. It engages the mind and you play at your own pace, and I have to remind myself "Yeah this is groovy, but you only need 200 hands to accomplish what you are trying to accomplish with your play."

I rarely found that video poker engaged the mind for myself as an advantage player. I equate it to playing basic strategy at blackjack. It is just rote response to data provided, there wasn't thinking involved as everything has been memorized ahead of time.

Quote: DRich

Quote: AutomaticMonkey

My observation is that the most addictive form of gaming is video poker, even for advantage players for whom video poker is part of the skill set. It engages the mind and you play at your own pace, and I have to remind myself "Yeah this is groovy, but you only need 200 hands to accomplish what you are trying to accomplish with your play."

I rarely found that video poker engaged the mind for myself as an advantage player. I equate it to playing basic strategy at blackjack. It is just rote response to data provided, there wasn't thinking involved as everything has been memorized ahead of time.
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Being I play fast, the challenge of playing faster and faster without making mistakes is the stimulating part for me. On a newer machine, with the buttons in good condition and with a short travel to contact it takes on an almost musical quality and I feel like a steel lap guitar virtuoso. And sometimes I'll mix touchscreen operation with it and it's more like playing a theremin.

So of course I don't miss an opportunity to play in a timed VP tournament.

Quote: AutomaticMonkey

Quote: DRich

Quote: AutomaticMonkey

My observation is that the most addictive form of gaming is video poker, even for advantage players for whom video poker is part of the skill set. It engages the mind and you play at your own pace, and I have to remind myself "Yeah this is groovy, but you only need 200 hands to accomplish what you are trying to accomplish with your play."

I rarely found that video poker engaged the mind for myself as an advantage player. I equate it to playing basic strategy at blackjack. It is just rote response to data provided, there wasn't thinking involved as everything has been memorized ahead of time.
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Being I play fast, the challenge of playing faster and faster without making mistakes is the stimulating part for me. On a newer machine, with the buttons in good condition and with a short travel to contact it takes on an almost musical quality and I feel like a steel lap guitar virtuoso. And sometimes I'll mix touchscreen operation with it and it's more like playing a theremin.

So of course I don't miss an opportunity to play in a timed VP tournament.
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"two-machine record is currently 2,544 hands per hour. " Wizard. There's a thread on a speed contest here.

Quote: rxwine

Quote: AutomaticMonkey

Quote: DRich

Quote: AutomaticMonkey

My observation is that the most addictive form of gaming is video poker, even for advantage players for whom video poker is part of the skill set. It engages the mind and you play at your own pace, and I have to remind myself "Yeah this is groovy, but you only need 200 hands to accomplish what you are trying to accomplish with your play."

I rarely found that video poker engaged the mind for myself as an advantage player. I equate it to playing basic strategy at blackjack. It is just rote response to data provided, there wasn't thinking involved as everything has been memorized ahead of time.
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Being I play fast, the challenge of playing faster and faster without making mistakes is the stimulating part for me. On a newer machine, with the buttons in good condition and with a short travel to contact it takes on an almost musical quality and I feel like a steel lap guitar virtuoso. And sometimes I'll mix touchscreen operation with it and it's more like playing a theremin.

So of course I don't miss an opportunity to play in a timed VP tournament.
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"two-machine record is currently 2,544 hands per hour. " Wizard. There's a thread on a speed contest here.
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I am not a fast player but I can play about 950 hands per hour on a game that I know well . My problem is I mostly use only my right hand my left hand just doesn’t work well. Have a friend that can play about 1200 hands per hour, similar to the guy in the video. It’s really something to see

I think responsibility has to be shared. Players are responsible for setting limits, but casinos also make deliberate choices about marketing, host contact and how easy it is to take a break. A self-exclusion tool is less meaningful if the same customer was heavily encouraged to keep playing immediately before reaching that point.

Last month my landlord approved a new roommate without telling me.

It turns out he has paranoid schizophrenia and decided to drink multiple bottles of brandy (mixed with schizophrenia medication) and cause thousands of dollars in damage. After I took away all his alcohol at 2am, he left and got more brandy and caused a lot more damage, which led to him breaking into my room later at 1pm and me calling 911 to remove him. Around 10am, after realizing he bought more alcohol, I went to the liquor store nearby and asked if someone was buying a ton of brandy. They said yes and I said "please please please stop selling to him. Listen I know you have a business, but if you can, don't give him brandy".

I'm sure he didn't listen but it doesn't matter since my former roommate will never be in my neighborhood again.
Anyways, it made me think about casino ethics. Do casinos internally classify certain customers as "gambling addicts"?

I have heard that casino employees aren't allowed to tell someone to stop gambling - I get why but do you think there should be more that casinos can or should do to stop people who are obviously gambling addicts? Would doing that decimate the casino revenue? Or are casinos doing the best they can without interfering into normal people's lives?

Let me know what you think.

I know of one person who was 86'ed for problem gambling because the family called and begged the casino to 86 her. It had gotten to the point where she was living in her car and spending 100% of her income on slot machines.

The usual situation is.... you're an adult, either figure it out or sign on to the self-exclusion list.

is there something off about your story? A landlord who can force a roommate on you?

Quote: odiousgambit

is there something off about your story? A landlord who can force a roommate on you?
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I live in my own room but on the same floor as my landlord who has two rooms connected to the communal kitchen / living room. She barely speaks English which is why she didn't realize he was crazy when he signed the lease.

I watched my friend's father drink himself to death in my bar. He'd been a functioning alcoholic for years but finally screwed up and got fired. He had cancer and decided to go out doing what he loved- getting drunk and annoying people. I banned him, but he just went to another bar and got in a fight. Then he almost got hit by a car crossing a busy street. His son and I decided it was better he drink with his friends and be happy than have him beat up by strangers or killed crossing a street. After he died, several people gave me grief about letting him drink in my place when he was so sick.

Quote: harris

Quote: odiousgambit

is there something off about your story? A landlord who can force a roommate on you?
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I live in my own room but on the same floor as my landlord who has two rooms connected to the communal kitchen / living room. She barely speaks English which is why she didn't realize he was crazy when he signed the lease.
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Get the hell out of there! You dodged a bullet. Both you and this landlord are eventually going to get battered, bled, bladed, buggered, bastinadoed, burglarized, and bereaved by some freakshow she lets in there.

As far as casinos labeling people as compulsive gamblers or addicts of any kind: that is terminology they are better off not using in their communications and records. It can be taken as a clinical diagnosis which a casino is not equipped to make, or as a defamatory term. Let people say that about themselves and then they can take action, but for the casino to designate anyone as that is asking for trouble.

Quote: harris

Do casinos internally classify certain customers as "gambling addicts"?
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Why wouldn't the term be something like "very best player" on anything that might get subpoenaed?

Every time I have to call 911 on someone who was foisted onto my living situation……. Actually, that’s never happened to me. Are you still actually living in the same place as the drunken violent guy?

MOVE SOMEWHERE ELSE.

Gambling is fine for people who are able to win at it or afford to lose.

But there is a lot of gray area in there because some who may afford to lose might live better lives without the gambling. And even some who are able to win at it might lead more productive or fulfilling lives doing something else. There are also those who don’t mind paying for the experience even if the time or money spent otherwise detracts from their lives.

To most it’s just another activity to some it’s an addiction.

For every Henry Hill for as far back as he could remember always wanted to be what he became there are full time gamblers successful or not who lack the education brains or experience to do much else.

Thanks for your concern everyone... I'm really living...in a situation... out here but if I work hard, I will get my coveted promotion soon and move to Manhattan. Inshallah/Bezrat HaShem.

Honestly that was not the most stressful situation that happened to me that week and I feel much safer here than where I used to live (DC).

For now I feel very peaceful living with just my landlord since this guy has been permanently evicted ;)
She made me Paraguayan food and is giving me a free haircut to thank me so it was all worth it

I also apologized to the liquor store employee for going into his store to tell him not to sell alcohol lol.

Anyways on the main topic of "should other people have the right to interfere with you buying alcohol and gambling" - I was thinking maybe American casinos could agree to have Australia-style rules where you can't gamble for more than 16 hours straight or more than 30 hours in a week. I don't know if the government monopoly on alcohol in places like Virginia or Ontario reduces alcoholism but I'll have to look into that (seems like it might a tiny bit but that's not why they exist?)

Quote: SOOPOO

Every time I have to call 911 on someone who was foisted onto my living situation……. Actually, that’s never happened to me. Are you still actually living in the same place as the drunken violent guy?

MOVE SOMEWHERE ELSE.
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You know, I happen to be a drunken violent guy myself. But there's a right way and a wrong way!

Quote: harris

...

Anyways on the main topic of "should other people have the right to interfere with you buying alcohol and gambling" - I was thinking maybe American casinos could agree to have Australia-style rules where you can't gamble for more than 16 hours straight or more than 30 hours in a week. I don't know if the government monopoly on alcohol in places like Virginia or Ontario reduces alcoholism but I'll have to look into that (seems like it might a tiny bit but that's not why they exist?)
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No that wouldn't be a good idea. It would be nearly impossible to enforce and would likely promote binges for those afflicted.

.
here's what google AI says about the issue:


"AI Overview

Problem gambling is a growing public health crisis in American society, heavily driven by the nationwide expansion of mobile sports betting.

Rise in Addiction: Millions of Americans struggle with compulsive gambling, with calls to help helplines surging among young adults.

Micro-Betting Risks: Fast-paced, continuous in-game betting makes it harder for individuals to recognize warning signs and track losses.

Youth Exposure: Early exposure via online ads and sports normalization significantly increases the risk of lifelong addiction.

Only a small percentage of those affected ever seek professional help or get screened during routine healthcare visits."


people who love to gamble, the majority of whom are not problem gamblers like to pretend that the widespread increase in gambling is not problematic, so they don't feel guilty about being part of the gambling industry - "who me-? - of course I'm not doing anything wrong - I gamble responsibly"

.

Quote: lilredrooster

.
here's what google AI says about the issue:


"AI Overview

Problem gambling is a growing public health crisis in American society, heavily driven by the nationwide expansion of mobile sports betting.

Rise in Addiction: Millions of Americans struggle with compulsive gambling, with calls to help helplines surging among young adults.

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Anecdotally... a number of people I've spoken with say that one of the side effects of GLP-1 medication is a reduced desire to drink alcohol and gamble. I believe the alcohol related effects are starting to pop up in medical journals, but I haven't heard squat about potential effects for problem gamblers.

"Obviously", given the way that I avoid social interactions and people in general, my sample size is small enough to be insignificant.

.
some more info:

" According to data from the National Council on Problem Gambling (NCPG), the scale of problem gambling spans different severity levels:

Severe Gambling Disorder: About 2.5 million adults (1%) meet full diagnostic criteria

Another 5 to 8 million adults (2% to 3%) experience negative consequences or exhibit risky behaviors without meeting the strictest clinical bar.

Any Problematic Behavior: Nearly 20 million U.S. adults report experiencing at least one problematic gambling behavior over the course of a year.

Demographics: Young adults, under-35s, and men face higher statistical risk."

.

Quote: Dieter

Anecdotally... a number of people I've spoken with say that one of the side effects of GLP-1 medication is a reduced desire to drink alcohol and gamble....

What a horrible drug! Are they warning people about these deadly side effects? There needs to be a class action lawsuit!

Quote: harris

Anyways on the main topic of "should other people have the right to interfere with you buying alcohol and gambling" - I was thinking maybe American casinos could agree to have Australia-style rules where you can't gamble for more than 16 hours straight or more than 30 hours in a week.
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Casinos already claim to be doing this. Caesars' CSR reports are filled with mentions of how the company engages in "proactive" measures to recognize and prevent problem "gaming" (you know, because we cannot call it gambling.)

But the industry is just liars and unethical people. So none of it actually happens. Without problem gamblers, casino profits would be next to nothing.

regarding alcohol: in Nevada, a literal cesspool, the "hospitality industry" got lawmakers to pass immunity from civil liability if a business gets someone drunk and that person hurts him/herself or others. Getting guests drunk and allowing them to gamble drunk are Reg 5 violations, but aint no one minding the shop. Nevada is truly the state that ethics forgot.

Quote: itsmejeff

Quote: harris

Anyways on the main topic of "should other people have the right to interfere with you buying alcohol and gambling" - I was thinking maybe American casinos could agree to have Australia-style rules where you can't gamble for more than 16 hours straight or more than 30 hours in a week.
link to original post

Casinos already claim to be doing this. Caesars' CSR reports are filled with mentions of how the company engages in "proactive" measures to recognize and prevent problem "gaming" (you know, because we cannot call it gambling.)

But the industry is just liars and unethical people. So none of it actually happens. Without problem gamblers, casino profits would be next to nothing.

regarding alcohol: in Nevada, a literal cesspool, the "hospitality industry" got lawmakers to pass immunity from civil liability if a business gets someone drunk and that person hurts him/herself or others. Getting guests drunk and allowing them to gamble drunk are Reg 5 violations, but aint no one minding the shop. Nevada is truly the state that ethics forgot.
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I see it from the side of the industry with alcohol and liability for overserving. It burdens servers with making what would be in any other context a medical diagnosis they are in no way qualified to make. Even a police officer has to apply some court-approved subjective and objective tests before he can proclaim someone to be intoxicated and cuff him.

In the gun world being intox while armed is considered a dreadful thing and if you go to a gun store or a gun range and they smell alcohol or marijuana you will be ejected. But the trigger there is the intoxicant itself: "When he walked into the store I smelled alcohol so I asked him to leave and not come back today" is perfectly legitimate, but the reaction is to the presence of an intoxicant at all (qualitative), not a determination of how much he had (quantitative). Obviously a cocktail waitress smells alcohol for her entire shift, it's right there on her tray and people are supposed to be drinking it.

So I suppose it's the same with gaming; they can see that you are betting, they can see how much, but they don't have nearly enough information to say "compulsive gambling." That's a term we only use for losers anyway. A guy can have a terrible gambling addiction but if he hits jackpots he's as happy as can be and nobody says he has a problem until he loses. They can see me lose $1000 at a blackjack table, and they can see the guy next to me lose $1000, and how do they know which one of us is a card counter having a down-in-the-noise swing, and which one of us is a compulsive gambler who can't buy food that week? If they knew I was a counter they'd be throwing me out a hell of a lot faster than the gambler. I think putting these responsibilities on casinos and their employees is asking way too much of them. Beyond a reasonable expectation of their capabilities.

Bars and casinos kick out intoxicated patrons for their actions, not the amount of alcohol they consumed. Have a dozen shots and happily game away. Get loud and belligerent, and it doesn't matter if it's one drink or a dozen.

Quote: AutomaticMonkey

Quote: Dieter

Anecdotally... a number of people I've spoken with say that one of the side effects of GLP-1 medication is a reduced desire to drink alcohol and gamble....

What a horrible drug! Are they warning people about these deadly side effects? There needs to be a class action lawsuit!
link to original post

https://pmc.ncbi.nlm.nih.gov/articles/PMC8820218/

... Maybe?