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JerryLogan
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January 14th, 2011 at 1:00:01 PM permalink
Come on. Why is everybody ganging up on the poor fellow? All the mocking and the laughing is getting to the guy, and if he's anything like his Oregonian brothers, he's wimpering up a storm every time he has to come on and read what some slacker has written about him. And you KNOW he can't help but peek at everything, because what his image to others of him is here is more important than his collection of fresh men. Enough is enough!

I'm going to give him another chance to come up with a face-saving answer to a very direct question, only this time I'm going to structure it so he can't toss any BS into the answer so it looks like he's a genius to others who haven't the intelligence to get their hands around the issue. By the way, if I didn't mention it before, I got interested in this question when an RS video brought it up earlier in the year. (I tossed that in to get paulewog off his butt and on the conspiracy trail again)

Take a STRAIGHT, IMPOSSIBLE TO BEND diamond rod that is 999,000,000,000,000,000,000,000,000,000,000,000,000,000,000,000,000,000,000,000,000 times as long as the distance from the earth to the furthest star we know of, stop the earth's movement, and then point it UP. Assuming there's zero space junk or planets/stars/meteors or floating atheists' punishment recommendation tablets etc. to run into along the way, where does that thing end up at? Not really "where" because no one has that info, but WHAT...or does it not find an end? And if it does, what's behind that and what's behind that, etc., etc., etc.?

MKL says he hates "bad science". Well, the first answer he gave on this was indeed, bad science. He said there was some kind of "mobius ribbon" or something, and that there's no such thing as "straight". In other words, he sluffed off the question by saying someone travelling straight out to space would eventually end up going around in some kind of circle. Typical make-it-up-on-the-go answer after getting inspiration from a few internet sites. But now he can't do that because we're using an unbendable rod.

Seeing that this is basically a forum filled with theorists who deal in what-ifs and not real things, is there any reasonable theories as to what one would expect that rod to encounter? If not, then maybe that'll help the 1.6%ers change their tune some?
thecesspit
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January 14th, 2011 at 1:24:37 PM permalink
It encounters nothing, and there is nothing beyond that too. I understand the thought experiment idea, so won't do the obvious complaints about the infeasiblity of such a rod, speed of light movements etc... cos that's really not the point of your question. By star you mean "the furthest thing away we can see"... I have no idea how far that is but I'll go with a "bloody long way"

By nothing, I don't mean hard vacuum. I mean truly and absolutely nothing. No influence of any gravity, light or EM waves. Nothing.

Possibly not even time or distance. The introduction of Jerry's Rod would mean there is such a dimensions. However, I'm not really up to speed on that type of thing,
so current thinking might have changed. But I'm pretty sure actually, no-one knows.

There is no edge of the universe. There's just a point beyond which the universe has had no influence (yet).

The mobius/torus theory would still wrap the rod around... as the "bend" is in the space-time dimensions. Like the way that the world seems flat when you stand on it, but if you go far enough, you end up back where you started. Except you can't perceive the dimension it's bent into (where with a 2d world into 3d you can). You can claim this is "made up", but it is part of string theory and other cosmological ideas. I believe the scientists are still working on how to prove or otherwise such concepts.

The fact or otherwise of a boundary to the universe isn't really a religious question, even if you want to couch it as such. An unknown (and possibly unknowable) thing does not mean there is a creator (let alone a interventionist, knowable, Christian God).
"Then you can admire the real gambler, who has neither eaten, slept, thought nor lived, he has so smarted under the scourge of his martingale, so suffered on the rack of his desire for a coup at trente-et-quarante" - Honore de Balzac, 1829
JerryLogan
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January 14th, 2011 at 1:31:41 PM permalink
Quote: thecesspit

It encounters nothing, and there is nothing beyond that too. I understand the thought experiment idea, so won't do the obvious complaints about the infeasiblity of such a rod, speed of light movements etc... cos that's really not the point of your question. By star you mean "the furthest thing away we can see"... I have no idea how far that is but I'll go with a "bloody long way"

By nothing, I don't mean hard vacuum. I mean truly and absolutely nothing. No influence of any gravity, light or EM waves. Nothing.

Possibly not even time or distance. The introduction of Jerry's Rod would mean there is such a dimensions. However, I'm not really up to speed on that type of thing,
so current thinking might have changed. But I'm pretty sure actually, no-one knows.

There is no edge of the universe. There's just a point beyond which the universe has had no influence (yet).

The mobius/torus theory would still wrap the rod around... as the "bend" is in the space-time dimensions. Like the way that the world seems flat when you stand on it, but if you go far enough, you end up back where you started. Except you can't perceive the dimension it's bent into (where with a 2d world into 3d you can). You can claim this is "made up", but it is part of string theory and other cosmological ideas. I believe the scientists are still working on how to prove or otherwise such concepts.

The fact or otherwise of a boundary to the universe isn't really a religious question, even if you want to couch it as such. An unknown (and possibly unknowable) thing does not mean there is a creator (let alone a interventionist, knowable, Christian God).



I agree, none of the theories would prove the existence of God or anyone else. In my mind it just enforces what I believe in because, as an extraordinary problem, it cannot be absolutely explained.

The rod never bends, mobius or not. We're not talking time, only space. If you eliminate such options, you'll find it indeed is a religiously-charged issue.

Thanks for your input.
Wizard
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January 14th, 2011 at 3:09:45 PM permalink
Don't ask me to defend this, but I thought those on the cutting edge of astronomy would say that space is curved. So, from a distance, it would look like the rod was making loops.

If you're going to ask the tough questions, here is one for you. If god can do anything, could he make a rock so heavy that god himself couldn't lift it?
"For with much wisdom comes much sorrow." -- Ecclesiastes 1:18 (NIV)
mkl654321
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January 14th, 2011 at 3:20:19 PM permalink
The question is so stupid, and shows such a basic misunderstanding of physics, that it's not worth answering. For one thing, there's no such thing as an "impossible to bend" diamond rod--it just can't be bent by any force man can muster. In the near presence of the sun's gravitational field, for instance, the rod would indeed bend. Also, since space itself is curved, the rod as Jerry describes it would indeed bend even without the influence of any gravitational force. Jerry can feel free to make any idiotic, insulting remark he wants in response to that.

What I'm more interested is, how can Jerry Logan live in two places at once, and simultaneously work at two daytime jobs that are over 100 miles apart? That would take a Godlike miracle, methinks.
The fact that a believer is happier than a skeptic is no more to the point than the fact that a drunken man is happier than a sober one. The happiness of credulity is a cheap and dangerous quality.---George Bernard Shaw
mkl654321
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January 14th, 2011 at 3:26:10 PM permalink
Quote: Wizard

Don't ask me to defend this, but I thought those on the cutting edge of astronomy would say that space is curved. So, from a distance, it would look like the rod was making loops.

If you're going to ask the tough questions, here is one for you. If god can do anything, could he make a rock so heavy that god himself couldn't lift it?



I like the even more salient question: can an omnipotent, omniscient God change his own mind? If he can, then he isn't omniscient; if not, then he isn't omnipotent. There would be no point whatsoever in praying to such a God, and no such thing as free will. Therefore, no reason to put any money in the collection plate, and more time on Sunday for golf and football.
The fact that a believer is happier than a skeptic is no more to the point than the fact that a drunken man is happier than a sober one. The happiness of credulity is a cheap and dangerous quality.---George Bernard Shaw
DorothyGale
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January 14th, 2011 at 3:30:12 PM permalink
Quote: Wizard

If you're going to ask the tough questions, here is one for you. If god can do anything, could he make a rock so heavy that god himself couldn't lift it?

What does "lift" mean in the vacuum of space? I think most questions about "God" (whatever) make no sense at all ..
"Who would have thought a good little girl like you could destroy my beautiful wickedness!"
Wizard
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January 14th, 2011 at 3:36:15 PM permalink
Quote: mkl654321

I like the even more salient question: can an omnipotent, omniscient God change his own mind?



At the risk of going off topic, the bible already shows that god does change his mind, which makes me question the label of omniscient. To be specific, after Noah's flood god seemed to regret killing almost every living creature on earth.

"The LORD smelled the pleasing aroma and said in his heart: “Never again will I curse the ground because of humans, even though every inclination of the human heart is evil from childhood. And never again will I destroy all living creatures, as I have done." -- Genesis 8:21 (NIV).
"For with much wisdom comes much sorrow." -- Ecclesiastes 1:18 (NIV)
ElectricDreams
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January 14th, 2011 at 3:42:16 PM permalink
Quote: mkl654321

I like the even more salient question: can an omnipotent, omniscient God change his own mind? If he can, then he isn't omniscient; if not, then he isn't omnipotent. There would be no point whatsoever in praying to such a God, and no such thing as free will. Therefore, no reason to put any money in the collection plate, and more time on Sunday for golf amd football.



Really? The omnipotence paradox is the hard question you come up with? Thomas Aquinas addressed it back in the 13th century. (Aquinas can be hard to read sometimes, so I'm sure there's a better resource out there. I'll find it when I have time.)

Isn't this getting a bit off topic, btw? Although I admit I'm a bit confused as to what the topic actually is...
mkl654321
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January 14th, 2011 at 3:46:18 PM permalink
Quote: ElectricDreams

Really? The omnipotence paradox is the hard question you come up with? Thomas Aquinas addressed it back in the 13th century.

Isn't this getting a bit off topic, btw? Although I admit I'm a bit confused as to what the topic actually is...



Aquinas' arguments stank. He used "infinite regression", which was crappy logic even by the standards of the 13th century.

The topic is that Jerry is trying to use a confusedly constructed "science problem", which he himself doesn't even understand, as a way of flinging more crap at myself and others. He actually doesn't give a rat's ass about the answer; he's just stirring the pot. So taking this discussion off-topic is probably the right thing to do.
The fact that a believer is happier than a skeptic is no more to the point than the fact that a drunken man is happier than a sober one. The happiness of credulity is a cheap and dangerous quality.---George Bernard Shaw
JerryLogan
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January 14th, 2011 at 3:46:29 PM permalink
Quote: Wizard

Don't ask me to defend this, but I thought those on the cutting edge of astronomy would say that space is curved. So, from a distance, it would look like the rod was making loops.

If you're going to ask the tough questions, here is one for you. If god can do anything, could he make a rock so heavy that god himself couldn't lift it?



Let's say that space is somehow curved like some people believe. So what's outside space, and how far does that go on for and into what? You can't simply explain it all away by claiming something's "curved". That might work with an object you can put in your pocket or with the shape of the razors many of the women in Oregon shave their legs with, but with space that's an undefensible answer.

There is a belief that God can do anything because His Son has performed documented miracles while alive. None of those was making a rock too heavy for him to lift, so no, he cannot make a rock too heavy for him to lift. Not because He has limitations, but because no matter how big or challenging an object or requirement, He will always overcome it.

I can see I am getting on the nerves of the 1.6%ers. I wonder how it felt watching the memorial the other night....if that 1.6% felt they just didn't belong. Anywhere.
P90
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January 14th, 2011 at 3:58:11 PM permalink
Quote: JerryLogan

Let's say that space is somehow curved like some people believe. So what's outside space, and how far does that go on for and into what? You can't simply explain it all away by claiming something's "curved".


As a matter of fact you can. There can be no more "beyond" in this scenario than there can be "beyond 0 and 9" in baccarat. Any point you can define will still be within this space.
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Mosca
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January 14th, 2011 at 4:01:45 PM permalink
Quote: mkl654321

Quote: ElectricDreams

Really? The omnipotence paradox is the hard question you come up with? Thomas Aquinas addressed it back in the 13th century.

Isn't this getting a bit off topic, btw? Although I admit I'm a bit confused as to what the topic actually is...



Aquinas' arguments stank. He used "infinite regression", which was crappy logic even by the standards of the 13th century.



LOL, of course you're smarter than Aquinas.

Keep in mind that in his day he did not have the luxury of believing that there was no god. Such a concept was inconceivable, not just religiously but also scientifically.
A falling knife has no handle.
EvenBob
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January 14th, 2011 at 4:02:24 PM permalink
Quote: Wizard

If god can do anything, could he make a rock so heavy that god himself couldn't lift it?



When I was a kid the big question was 'can an unstoppable force move an immovable object'. The correct answer was neither can be called unstoppable or immovable until they're tested on each other, so the question is moot. If god made a rock he couldn't lift, he obviously isn't god.
"It's not called gambling if the math is on your side."
SOOPOO
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January 14th, 2011 at 4:06:17 PM permalink
Quote: JerryLogan

or with the shape of the razors many of the women in Oregon shave their legs with



It's quotes like this that will make me miss JL when he next gets banned.....
Wizard
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January 14th, 2011 at 4:09:28 PM permalink
Quote: JerryLogan

Let's say that space is somehow curved like some people believe. So what's outside space, and how far does that go on for and into what? You can't simply explain it all away by claiming something's "curved". That might work with an object you can put in your pocket or with the shape of the razors many of the women in Oregon shave their legs with, but with space that's an undefensible answer.

There is a belief that God can do anything because His Son has performed documented miracles while alive. None of those was making a rock too heavy for him to lift, so no, he cannot make a rock too heavy for him to lift. Not because He has limitations, but because no matter how big or challenging an object or requirement, He will always overcome it.




One needs to understand the Theory of Relativity to grasp the curvature of space. I'm not claiming I do, so won't even try to explain it.

Likewise, I won't expect you to explain how a god who can do anything can't make a rock heavy enough that he couldn't lift it, which goes to show that he does have limitations.

Finally, I'm calling you on the "documented" miracles. Let's see the documentation. Please don't say the bible, which is the product of oral tradition, translations errors, and the church cherry picking what they wanted in it. I have more respect for the believers who admit you have it on faith.
"For with much wisdom comes much sorrow." -- Ecclesiastes 1:18 (NIV)
mkl654321
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January 14th, 2011 at 4:11:12 PM permalink
Quote: Mosca

LOL, of course you're smarter than Aquinas.

Keep in mind that in his day he did not have the luxury of believing that there was no god. Such a concept was inconceivable, not just religiously but also scientifically.



LOL, I didn't say that, LOL, only that, LOL, his logic was crappy, which, LOL, even he, LOL, was probably, LOL, aware of.

I don't NEED to be smarter than Aquinas to see the gaping holes in his logic. His arguments were pitifully weak. Yes, he was a smart man. But the fact that he had to build his arguments out of tissue paper is a perfect example of how religion perverts reason and logic.

And I should point out that if he truly didn't have the luxury of believing that there was no God, then no "proof" of his existence was necessary--it would have been, as you say, taken as a given. So even asking the question was proof of at least some doubt--and his horribly unsound answers to that question are proof of how uncomfortable he was with it.
The fact that a believer is happier than a skeptic is no more to the point than the fact that a drunken man is happier than a sober one. The happiness of credulity is a cheap and dangerous quality.---George Bernard Shaw
Mosca
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January 14th, 2011 at 4:17:47 PM permalink
I actually did guffaw when I read that, hence the LOL. Aquinas, writing in the 13th century, was trying to reconcile reason and faith (natural revelation and supernatural revelation). He couldn't deny the existence of either.
A falling knife has no handle.
mkl654321
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January 14th, 2011 at 4:19:10 PM permalink
Quote: Wizard

Finally, I'm calling you on the "documented" miracles. Let's see the documentation. Please don't say the bible, which is the product of oral tradition, translations errors, and the church cherry picking what they wanted in it. I have more respect for the believers who admit you have it on faith.



What's kind of sad about all the nonsensical mythology associated with Jesus' life is that he was an extraordinary man, probably the single most influential man in history, and all the "miracle" nonsense isn't needed to establish that. He was a rabbi, a social reformer, and a revolutionary. He articulated a philosophy that revolutionized human thought. The Romans executed him in approximately the year 30 A.D. He's dead. He wasn't resurrected.

Isn't that enough?
The fact that a believer is happier than a skeptic is no more to the point than the fact that a drunken man is happier than a sober one. The happiness of credulity is a cheap and dangerous quality.---George Bernard Shaw
Mosca
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January 14th, 2011 at 4:21:34 PM permalink
I dunno. Genghis Kahn is right up there. The only reason we give it to Christ is because Kahn isn't occidental. I'd call this one pretty close. At the very least there is Kahn's reputed masculinity; it is estimated that there are 16,000,000 men alive today who are carrying his Y-chromosome. (American Journal of Human Genetics)
A falling knife has no handle.
EvenBob
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January 14th, 2011 at 4:21:48 PM permalink
Quote: Wizard


I won't expect you to explain how a god who can do anything can't make a rock heavy enough that he couldn't lift it, which goes to show that he does have limitations.



Its just a game of semantics. We assign certain properties to what god is, and then challenge those properties. Eastern religions are far better at grasping what god really is. They say 'if you meet Buddha on the road, kill him', because you can never meet the real Buddha on the road and one you do meet is fake. They're saying no matter how hard you try, you will never understand god, so quit trying.
"It's not called gambling if the math is on your side."
mkl654321
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January 14th, 2011 at 4:22:33 PM permalink
Quote: Mosca

I actually did guffaw when I read that, hence the LOL. Aquinas, writing in the 13th century, was trying to reconcile reason and faith (natural revelation and supernatural revelation). He couldn't deny the existence of either; that was the source of his writings.



If you read his writings extensively, you'll see that he used rickety logical scaffolding such as "the unmoved mover" and various forms of infinite regression to prop up his arguments. He also failed to make the reconciliation you mention, and ultimately copped out on the side of faith.

I actually get the sense that his own conclusions deeply troubled him, and that he didn't dare articulate what his actual conclusions were (for obvious reasons). When any thinking man tries to reconcile faith and logic, he has to sacrifice one or the other in the process.
The fact that a believer is happier than a skeptic is no more to the point than the fact that a drunken man is happier than a sober one. The happiness of credulity is a cheap and dangerous quality.---George Bernard Shaw
Mosca
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January 14th, 2011 at 4:47:39 PM permalink
Quote: mkl654321

If you read his writings extensively, you'll see that he used rickety logical scaffolding such as "the unmoved mover" and various forms of infinite regression to prop up his arguments. He also failed to make the reconciliation you mention, and ultimately copped out on the side of faith.

I actually get the sense that his own conclusions deeply troubled him, and that he didn't dare articulate what his actual conclusions were (for obvious reasons). When any thinking man tries to reconcile faith and logic, he has to sacrifice one or the other in the process.



I read him a lot 35 years ago. I'm not sure it was his conclusions that bothered him, I got the feeling that he attributed his frustration to not being privy to the mind of god. He was unable to step outside the frame of reference he was given. I see his problem analogous to Hilbert's proposal and Godel's incompleteness theorems; in the end, he couldn't use his own logic to prove his logic was accurate.
A falling knife has no handle.
mkl654321
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January 14th, 2011 at 5:03:33 PM permalink
Quote: Mosca

I read him a lot 35 years ago. I'm not sure it was his conclusions that bothered him, I got the feeling that he attributed his frustration to not being privy to the mind of god. He was unable to step outside the frame of reference he was given. I see his problem analogous to Hilbert's proposal and Godel's incompleteness theorems; in the end, he couldn't use his own logic to prove his logic was accurate.



Ah, but that was the rub. God's will/laws/dictates were supposed to make sense--the Church continually said, "Do this, don't do that, and good things will happen to you when you die." God's motivations, desires, and goals had to be comprehensible to humans, and there had to be logic behind his actions and the rules you were supposed to follow, otherwise, what was the point of cathedrals and priests and Bibles and collection plates? If any priest shrugged and said to his flock, "Actually, I don't really know or understand what God wants", he would have found himself having to work for a living in short order.

While I consider the existence of God to be vanishingly unlikely, it would be functionally the same thing if he did exist, but we were like ants in an ant farm trying to figure out what the Great Ant (the little boy who owns the ant farm) wanted--he would be incomprehensible to us.
The fact that a believer is happier than a skeptic is no more to the point than the fact that a drunken man is happier than a sober one. The happiness of credulity is a cheap and dangerous quality.---George Bernard Shaw
clarkacal
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January 14th, 2011 at 5:10:33 PM permalink
Quote: JerryLogan


Take a STRAIGHT, IMPOSSIBLE TO BEND diamond rod that is 999,000,000,000,000,000,000,000,000,000,000,000,000,000,000,000,000,000,000,000,000 times as long as the distance from the earth to the furthest star we know of, stop the earth's movement, and then point it UP. Assuming there's zero space junk or planets/stars/meteors or floating atheists' punishment recommendation tablets etc. to run into along the way, where does that thing end up at? Not really "where" because no one has that info, but WHAT...or does it not find an end? And if it does, what's behind that and what's behind that, etc., etc., etc.?

MKL says he hates "bad science". Well, the first answer he gave on this was indeed, bad science. He said there was some kind of "mobius ribbon" or something, and that there's no such thing as "straight". In other words, he sluffed off the question by saying someone travelling straight out to space would eventually end up going around in some kind of circle. Typical make-it-up-on-the-go answer after getting inspiration from a few internet sites. But now he can't do that because we're using an unbendable rod.

Seeing that this is basically a forum filled with theorists who deal in what-ifs and not real things, is there any reasonable theories as to what one would expect that rod to encounter? If not, then maybe that'll help the 1.6%ers change their tune some?



Wait a second, you're talking about Dublin's stiletto in the ghetto aren't you!
Nareed
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January 14th, 2011 at 5:40:02 PM permalink
Quote: Wizard

Likewise, I won't expect you to explain how a god who can do anything can't make a rock heavy enough that he couldn't lift it, which goes to show that he does have limitations.



Oh, that's an easy one:

The people who made up the Biblical God, unlike the Greeks, were unfamiliar with the rules and uses of formal logic. If they had known about it, they'd ahve devised a more credible, less formidable deity.
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rxwine
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January 14th, 2011 at 6:03:25 PM permalink
Quote: JerryLogan

Take a STRAIGHT, IMPOSSIBLE TO BEND diamond rod that is 999,000,000,000,000,000,000,000,000,000,000,000,000,000,000,000,000,000,000,000,000 times as long as the distance from the earth to the furthest star we know of, stop the earth's movement, and then point it UP. Assuming there's zero space junk or planets/stars/meteors or floating atheists' punishment recommendation tablets etc. to run into along the way, where does that thing end up at?



It will poke you in the ass.
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Mosca
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January 14th, 2011 at 6:22:06 PM permalink
Quote: mkl654321

Ah, but that was the rub. God's will/laws/dictates were supposed to make sense--the Church continually said, "Do this, don't do that, and good things will happen to you when you die." God's motivations, desires, and goals had to be comprehensible to humans, and there had to be logic behind his actions and the rules you were supposed to follow, otherwise, what was the point of cathedrals and priests and Bibles and collection plates? If any priest shrugged and said to his flock, "Actually, I don't really know or understand what God wants", he would have found himself having to work for a living in short order.



Not really. That is the whole point of Job. I'm going to cut and paste it, it is pretty powerful. When you consider that he was working within this context, that the mind of god is unknowable, his work is pretty impressive for the early 1200s.

-----
Then the LORD answered Job out of the whirlwind, and said, Who is this that darkeneth counsel by words without knowledge? Gird up now thy loins like a man; for I will demand of thee, and answer thou me. Where wast thou when I laid the foundations of the earth? declare, if thou hast understanding. Who hath laid the measures thereof, if thou knowest? or who hath stretched the line upon it? Whereupon are the foundations thereof fastened? or who laid the corner stone thereof; When the morning stars sang together, and all the sons of God shouted for joy? Or who shut up the sea with doors, when it brake forth, as if it had issued out of the womb? When I made the cloud the garment thereof, and thick darkness a swaddlingband for it, And brake up for it my decreed place, and set bars and doors, And said, Hitherto shalt thou come, but no further: and here shall thy proud waves be stayed? Hast thou commanded the morning since thy days; and caused the dayspring to know his place; That it might take hold of the ends of the earth, that the wicked might be shaken out of it? It is turned as clay to the seal; and they stand as a garment. And from the wicked their light is withholden, and the high arm shall be broken. Hast thou entered into the springs of the sea? or hast thou walked in the search of the depth? Have the gates of death been opened unto thee? or hast thou seen the doors of the shadow of death? Hast thou perceived the breadth of the earth? declare if thou knowest it all. Where is the way where light dwelleth? and as for darkness, where is the place thereof, That thou shouldest take it to the bound thereof, and that thou shouldest know the paths to the house thereof? Knowest thou it, because thou wast then born? or because the number of thy days is great? Hast thou entered into the treasures of the snow? or hast thou seen the treasures of the hail, Which I have reserved against the time of trouble, against the day of battle and war? By what way is the light parted, which scattereth the east wind upon the earth? Who hath divided a watercourse for the overflowing of waters, or a way for the lightning of thunder; To cause it to rain on the earth, where no man is; on the wilderness, wherein there is no man; To satisfy the desolate and waste ground; and to cause the bud of the tender herb to spring forth? Hath the rain a father? or who hath begotten the drops of dew? Out of whose womb came the ice? and the hoary frost of heaven, who hath gendered it? The waters are hid as with a stone, and the face of the deep is frozen. Canst thou bind the sweet influences of Pleiades, or loose the bands of Orion? Canst thou bring forth Mazzaroth in his season? or canst thou guide Arcturus with his sons? Knowest thou the ordinances of heaven? canst thou set the dominion thereof in the earth? Canst thou lift up thy voice to the clouds, that abundance of waters may cover thee? Canst thou send lightnings, that they may go, and say unto thee, Here we are? Who hath put wisdom in the inward parts? or who hath given understanding to the heart? Who can number the clouds in wisdom? or who can stay the bottles of heaven, When the dust groweth into hardness, and the clods cleave fast together? Wilt thou hunt the prey for the lion? or fill the appetite of the young lions, 38:40 When they couch in their dens, and abide in the covert to lie in wait? 38:41 Who provideth for the raven his food? when his young ones cry unto God, they wander for lack of meat.

Knowest thou the time when the wild goats of the rock bring forth? or canst thou mark when the hinds do calve? Canst thou number the months that they fulfil? or knowest thou the time when they bring forth? They bow themselves, they bring forth their young ones, they cast out their sorrows. Their young ones are in good liking, they grow up with corn; they go forth, and return not unto them. Who hath sent out the wild ass free? or who hath loosed the bands of the wild ass? Whose house I have made the wilderness, and the barren land his dwellings. He scorneth the multitude of the city, neither regardeth he the crying of the driver. The range of the mountains is his pasture, and he searcheth after every green thing. Will the unicorn be willing to serve thee, or abide by thy crib? Canst thou bind the unicorn with his band in the furrow? or will he harrow the valleys after thee? Wilt thou trust him, because his strength is great? or wilt thou leave thy labour to him? Wilt thou believe him, that he will bring home thy seed, and gather it into thy barn? Gavest thou the goodly wings unto the peacocks? or wings and feathers unto the ostrich? Which leaveth her eggs in the earth, and warmeth them in dust, And forgetteth that the foot may crush them, or that the wild beast may break them. She is hardened against her young ones, as though they were not hers: her labour is in vain without fear; Because God hath deprived her of wisdom, neither hath he imparted to her understanding. What time she lifteth up herself on high, she scorneth the horse and his rider. Hath thou given the horse strength? hast thou clothed his neck with thunder? Canst thou make him afraid as a grasshopper? the glory of his nostrils is terrible. He paweth in the valley, and rejoiceth in his strength: he goeth on to meet the armed men. He mocketh at fear, and is not affrighted; neither turneth he back from the sword. The quiver rattleth against him, the glittering spear and the shield. He swalloweth the ground with fierceness and rage: neither believeth he that it is the sound of the trumpet. He saith among the trumpets, Ha, ha; and he smelleth the battle afar off, the thunder of the captains, and the shouting. Doth the hawk fly by thy wisdom, and stretch her wings toward the south? Doth the eagle mount up at thy command, and make her nest on high? She dwelleth and abideth on the rock, upon the crag of the rock, and the strong place. From thence she seeketh the prey, and her eyes behold afar off. Her young ones also suck up blood: and where the slain are, there is she.

Moreover the LORD answered Job, and said, Shall he that contendeth with the Almighty instruct him? he that reproveth God, let him answer it.
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Wizard
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January 14th, 2011 at 6:37:13 PM permalink
Quote: rxwine

It will poke you in the ass.



Thanks! My favorite post in this thread so far.
"For with much wisdom comes much sorrow." -- Ecclesiastes 1:18 (NIV)
mkl654321
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January 14th, 2011 at 6:45:31 PM permalink
Quote: Mosca

Not really. That is the whole point of Job. I'm going to cut and paste it, it is pretty powerful. When you consider that he was working within this context, that the mind of god is unknowable, his work is pretty impressive for the early 1200s.
Moreover the LORD answered Job, and said, Shall he that contendeth with the Almighty instruct him? he that reproveth God, let him answer it.



But if man couldn't really understand what God was up to, and He worked within rules and reasons that man couldn't understand, then why follow the rules and dictates of the priests who wouldn't have figured it out, either? And if God was not logical as man understood logic, then there wasn't any point in being good, or dropping the coins in the collection plate, was there?

If man couldn't know the mind of God, how could he possibly hope to appease him? And how could man know that being good would get into heaven? If the mind of God was unknowable, then so was his morality, and quite possibly only murderers and rapists were going to heaven.

The above is one of several thousand contradictions in Aquinas' theology and that of Christianity in general. I'm sticking with Ferd and Esmerelda (the two immense invisible green dragons who bear the cosmos aloft in their mighty jaws).
The fact that a believer is happier than a skeptic is no more to the point than the fact that a drunken man is happier than a sober one. The happiness of credulity is a cheap and dangerous quality.---George Bernard Shaw
boymimbo
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January 14th, 2011 at 6:50:08 PM permalink
What's outside of space? We don't know.

If the universe is infinite in size, you could make a diamond rod that long, it would indeed be straight up, and its mass would be measurable, because its weight would be measurable as well as its dimensions. And the universe will still appear to be infinite on both ends of the rods. Well, that's one solution.

If the universe is indeed finite in size then you can't make a rod that big, which makes sense.

Just because astronomers cannot see the big bang or the ends of the universe, there is plenty of cosmic evidence of its theoretical existence. The universe is indeed finite, and we will never know what's outside of it because then it becomes part of our universe, by definition of the word.
----- You want the truth! You can't handle the truth!
JerryLogan
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January 14th, 2011 at 7:12:48 PM permalink
Quote: boymimbo

What's outside of space? We don't know.

If the universe is infinite in size, you could make a diamond rod that long, it would indeed be straight up, and its mass would be measurable, because its weight would be measurable as well as its dimensions. And the universe will still appear to be infinite on both ends of the rods. Well, that's one solution.

If the universe is indeed finite in size then you can't make a rod that big, which makes sense.

Just because astronomers cannot see the big bang or the ends of the universe, there is plenty of cosmic evidence of its theoretical existence. The universe is indeed finite, and we will never know what's outside of it because then it becomes part of our universe, by definition of the word.



I understand that, and thanks for the input.
**********************************
I think this thread identifies to its readers the level of antagonism, conflict, and utter confusion that clutters the minds of atheists, and why they are haters who blame their troubles on everyone but themselves. Without religion, people can't handle the truth, they don't believe in anything they don't understand, and, like Islamic terrorists, they demand everyone believe just as they believe. Some publicly/some privately, but if we're not in that 1.6% then there is definitely something wrong with us and the way we live our lives.

And they wonder why they're single.
P90
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January 14th, 2011 at 7:21:48 PM permalink
Quote: boymimbo

If the universe is indeed finite in size then you can't make a rod that big, which makes sense.


No, no. In the compact space theory (which is finite universe), you can. And this rod will be straight at any single point (geometrically three points, but physically one is enough if you can measure strain), or for any physically measurable distance. You can try measuring its straightness with a laser, and the laser will tell you the rod is perfectly straight. Assuming you have octodecillion times the universe's lifetime to wait for the answer, of course.

Yet the shortest distance between the ends of the rod will not be equal to the distance measured along the rod, and there will be a shorter route. The maximum length of such a route is the diameter of the universe. Locally the rod will remain perfectly straight, it will not be bent anywhere, but globally you will be able to take shorter routes between its points than along the rod.


Quote: JerryLogan

Without religion, people can't handle the truth, they don't believe in anything they don't understand, and, like Islamic terrorists, they demand everyone believe just as they believe.


I'm almost tempted to invite you to a forum of mine.
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mkl654321
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January 14th, 2011 at 7:43:40 PM permalink
Quote: P90


I'm almost tempted to invite you to a forum of mine.



It's kind of funny that a believer would ask a "scientific" question (albeit badly constructed and terribly worded), and then when some people actually answer that question, go spinning out of control into a rant about atheists.

I notice that Jerry says that atheists don't believe in anything they can't understand. Is believing in something you can't understand somehow better? I guess so, since God-people believe in many such things: that they can't, don't, or won't understand. And atheists don't actually care what others believe (despite his, heh, heh, made-up assertion that they do); they just don't want some religious wingnut murdering other people because of their differing beliefs.

Atheists are just like other people; the only difference is that they don't hold nonsensical, mythological beliefs. If anyone else wants to believe in the Magical Man In the Sky, though, they are welcome to do so. Atheists are actually among the most tolerant people you'll find--in direct contrast to the Bible-thumping, small-brained religious wingnuts that infect the American landscape. And the sad and funny thing is that the Bible-thumpers not only believe in that Man In the Sky, but they think that everyone else should, too, and that we should be a medieval theocracy like Iran or Saudi Arabia.
The fact that a believer is happier than a skeptic is no more to the point than the fact that a drunken man is happier than a sober one. The happiness of credulity is a cheap and dangerous quality.---George Bernard Shaw
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January 14th, 2011 at 8:43:13 PM permalink
Quote: Mosca

Not really. That is the whole point of Job. I'm going to cut and paste it, it is pretty powerful. When you consider that he was working within this context, that the mind of god is unknowable, his work is pretty impressive for the early 1200s.



I find the story of Job very objectionable, to be honest with you. Executive summary: god and the devil make a bet whether Job will curse god if Job loses all his wealth and family. As expected, Job does. It is easy to say this in retrospect, but I would have bet on the devil.

Then Job asks god, "why?" A legitimate question. God gives him a line of crap about how Job's mind is too small to comprehend the reasons. I'd have more respect for god if he was honest and said it was because I made a bet on you.
"For with much wisdom comes much sorrow." -- Ecclesiastes 1:18 (NIV)
boymimbo
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January 14th, 2011 at 8:43:19 PM permalink
P90,

Tell me more.
----- You want the truth! You can't handle the truth!
EvenBob
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January 14th, 2011 at 8:51:15 PM permalink
Quote: Wizard

I find the story of Job very objectionable, to be honest with you. Executive summary: god and the devil make a bet whether Job will curse god if Job loses all his wealth and family.



Job is supposedly the oldest book in the Bible, far older than what Moses wrote. God and the Devil are hanging out together one day (say what?) and the Devil bets god he can't kick his pet dog Job enough times so the dog finally bites him. Many have felt forever that the book doesn't belong in the Bible, but there it is.
"It's not called gambling if the math is on your side."
JerryLogan
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January 14th, 2011 at 9:02:04 PM permalink
Quote: mkl654321

It's kind of funny that a believer would ask a "scientific" question (albeit badly constructed and terribly worded), and then when some people actually answer that question, go spinning out of control into a rant about atheists.

I notice that Jerry says that atheists don't believe in anything they can't understand. Is believing in something you can't understand somehow better? I guess so, since God-people believe in many such things: that they can't, don't, or won't understand. And atheists don't actually care what others believe (despite his, heh, heh, made-up assertion that they do); they just don't want some religious wingnut murdering other people because of their differing beliefs.

Atheists are just like other people; the only difference is that they don't hold nonsensical, mythological beliefs. If anyone else wants to believe in the Magical Man In the Sky, though, they are welcome to do so. Atheists are actually among the most tolerant people you'll find--in direct contrast to the Bible-thumping, small-brained religious wingnuts that infect the American landscape. And the sad and funny thing is that the Bible-thumpers not only believe in that Man In the Sky, but they think that everyone else should, too, and that we should be a medieval theocracy like Iran or Saudi Arabia.



More make-it-up-on-the-go baloney.

Last week Bill O'Reilly had the head atheist in America on for a debate. The guest's primary objective in life and on that show? To get as many Christians out of their pews and into HIS way of sick thinking. When O'Reilly laughed at him for claiming most people who go to church are really "atheists in hiding" the idiot squirmed until the seat of his pants started to wear through. What we saw was just another self-proclaimed intellectual fool (remind you of anybody?) who thrives on hate, lies & conflict, get his lunch handed to him....but not by someone whom he would get a kiss goodnight from. It was then and there that we all saw how lucky we all are that there are only 1.6% worth of these batterred and confused souls running around the country.
P90
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January 14th, 2011 at 9:07:20 PM permalink
Quote: boymimbo

P90,
Tell me more.


The quickest way to find more information would be internet, although after a short while it definitely makes sense to grab some books. The physics of a compact universe aren't really very complex. It's more like computer array overflow, where the boundaries aren't hard walls, you just come around. Somewhat like how an infinite straight road on Earth would eventually meet itself (it's not the case with compact 3D space though), despite being perfectly straight in its two surface dimensions.
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mkl654321
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January 14th, 2011 at 9:10:41 PM permalink
Quote: Wizard

I find the story of Job very objectionable, to be honest with you. Executive summary: god and the devil make a bet whether Job will curse god if Job loses all his wealth and family. As expected, Job does. It is easy to say this in retrospect, but I would have bet on the devil.

Then Job asks god, "why?" A legitimate question. God gives him a line of crap about how Job's mind is too small to comprehend the reasons. I'd have more respect for god if he was honest and said it was because I made a bet on you.



The party line is supposed to be an answer to the question, "Why do bad things happen to good people?" That answer is: shut up and behave, worms, I don't have to justify My actions to you. Less than satisfying. Then you ask the priest, "why?" and he says, just suffer, my son, you'll get your reward in heaven. Again. less than satisfying. If admission to heaven is based on observing the rules, then why don't those rules apply when you're in the qualification round (earth)?

The Greek-pantheon hypothesis of the gods as sadistic puppet masters is actually far more logically self-consistent than the Christian God who supposedly loves us and wants us to go to heaven, but then makes it extremely hard for us to get there. And though he loves us, some number of us will be cast into agony and torment for all eternity. I wouldn't even wish that on JerryLogan.
The fact that a believer is happier than a skeptic is no more to the point than the fact that a drunken man is happier than a sober one. The happiness of credulity is a cheap and dangerous quality.---George Bernard Shaw
JerryLogan
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January 14th, 2011 at 9:21:43 PM permalink
Quote: mkl654321

The party line is supposed to be an answer to the question, "Why do bad things happen to good people?" That answer is: shut up and behave, worms, I don't have to justify My actions to you. Less than satisfying. Then you ask the priest, "why?" and he says, just suffer, my son, you'll get your reward in heaven. Again. less than satisfying. If admission to heaven is based on observing the rules, then why don't those rules apply when you're in the qualification round (earth)?

The Greek-pantheon hypothesis of the gods as sadistic puppet masters is actually far more logically self-consistent than the Christian God who supposedly loves us and wants us to go to heaven, but then makes it extremely hard for us to get there. And though he loves us, some number of us will be cast into agony and torment for all eternity. I wouldn't even wish that on JerryLogan.



Typical confused atheist's view of the world. I suspect one of the reasons you choose the easy way out as an atheist is because you really haven't been able to properly study that which you despise. Your entire 1st paragraph is nothing more than a collection of ignorance and false assertions.

Explain & support "makes it extremely hard for us to get there". The last sentence is the mensa-killer. Not every Christian believes in hell and not every Christian HAS to believe in hell to enter The Kingdom. That's why you guys are so angry all the time, you have a lousy conflicted life here, and you create further chaos in your minds with no hope in the future either. That's also why so many of you are in one minority or another, such as being gay, being an unmarryable loner, and/or of course, being an atheist.
JohnnyQ
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January 14th, 2011 at 9:39:44 PM permalink
Quote: Wizard

Thanks! My favorite post in this thread so far.



OK, I wish I had something witty to say. Try me tomorrow !

ps: what's the over / under in days for Jerry getting sent to time
out again ?
There's emptiness behind their eyes There's dust in all their hearts They just want to steal us all and take us all apart
mkl654321
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January 14th, 2011 at 9:48:37 PM permalink
Quote: JohnnyQ

OK, I wish I had something witty to say. Try me tomorrow !

ps: what's the over / under in days for Jerry getting sent to time
out again ?



I had originally posted the O/U at 48 hours, but now I'm not so sure, since Jerry has come back as bad as, or even worse than, ever, and the Wiz seems reluctant to bounce him. Perhaps the Wiz feels that we all need a little Jerry now and then, the same way that human populations need infectious diseases now and then to keep the genome viable.
The fact that a believer is happier than a skeptic is no more to the point than the fact that a drunken man is happier than a sober one. The happiness of credulity is a cheap and dangerous quality.---George Bernard Shaw
JerryLogan
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January 15th, 2011 at 1:28:49 AM permalink
Quote: mkl654321

I had originally posted the O/U at 48 hours, but now I'm not so sure, since Jerry has come back as bad as, or even worse than, ever, and the Wiz seems reluctant to bounce him. Perhaps the Wiz feels that we all need a little Jerry now and then, the same way that human populations need infectious diseases now and then to keep the genome viable.



Megots the feeling that from the IQ thread, MKL is desperately wishing he'd get put on suspension before that bet gets too far....
Wizard
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January 15th, 2011 at 4:47:06 AM permalink
Quote: JerryLogan

Explain & support "makes it extremely hard for us to get there".



By my reading and interpretation there are two requirements to be saved:

1. Baptism in the name of Jesus.
2. Gift of the Holy Ghost, as evidenced by speaking in tongues.

Here are a few verses to back that up:

"Then Peter said unto them, Repent, and be baptized every one of you in the name of Jesus Christ for the remission of sins, and ye shall receive the gift of the Holy Ghost." -- Acts 2:38

"...Ye are not in the flesh, but in the Spirit, if so be that the Spirit of God dwell in you. Now if any man have not the Spirit of Christ, he is none of His..." -- Romans 8:9-ll.

"And they were all filled with the Holy Ghost, and began to speak with other tongues, as the Spirit gave them utterance." -- Acts 2:4

That seems like a high bar to me, that even most church-goers have not risen to. Have you?

Quote: mkl654321

I had originally posted the O/U at 48 hours, but now I'm not so sure, since Jerry has come back as bad as, or even worse than, ever, and the Wiz seems reluctant to bounce him. Perhaps the Wiz feels that we all need a little Jerry now and then, the same way that human populations need infectious diseases now and then to keep the genome viable.



I think Jerry went about 10 days the last time. Maybe I think you all need a little Jerry for the same reason god gives us earthquakes and floods, whatever that reason is.
"For with much wisdom comes much sorrow." -- Ecclesiastes 1:18 (NIV)
JerryLogan
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January 15th, 2011 at 5:34:18 AM permalink
Non-believers, besides an inert laziness shown by taking the easy way out when it comes to the very thoughtful & warm-hearted process of having a belief in God, always use the most simplistic of views when trying to convert us to their way of thinking (and that is their doctrine if you watched the US top atheist on Bill O'Reilly) yet dig down deep for the most nebulous of reasoning dictated by the Catholic Church, as rationale for their disbelief.

The majority of us do not try to comfort morons like Bill Maher with explanations on how the Father is the Son is the Holy Ghost etc., because that is something we are suppose to spiritually trust in. And we don't question how it was that Mary got pregnant without getting laid, because it is all part of the miracle of Christ that true believers understand as truth because we have the kindness and hope within for there to have been such an act. Religion, to me, is not a science but a faith, and it is something that gives us peace during our extremely trying times here on a very mad world. It's about having beliefs and trust without the need for proof. We trust & believe our unknown children will be born in perfection, but we have no proof beforehand and eventually we find out tha answer to that. That is why I say, atheists are some of the most conflict-driven and unhappiest people I have ever met or watched/read about because the majority mask hatred and inequity with a constant need for "proof" while deflecting criticisms off to "I only trust science". Mkl is an extraordinary example of that if there ever was one.
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January 15th, 2011 at 5:59:38 AM permalink
Quote: JerryLogan

Non-believers, besides an inert laziness shown by taking the easy way out when it comes to the very thoughtful & warm-hearted process of having a belief in God, always use the most simplistic of views when trying to convert us to their way of thinking (and that is their doctrine if you watched the US top atheist on Bill O'Reilly) yet dig down deep for the most nebulous of reasoning dictated by the Catholic Church, as rationale for their disbelief.



Speaking of laziness, that sounds like a very lazy faith. Where is the action and the works? I thought your purpose in life is supposed to be set a good example and bring others to the faith. Do you think you're setting a good example here? If Jesus posted here would he be rude and insulting in almost every post?
"For with much wisdom comes much sorrow." -- Ecclesiastes 1:18 (NIV)
Mosca
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January 15th, 2011 at 7:04:10 AM permalink
Quote: Wizard

I find the story of Job very objectionable, to be honest with you. Executive summary: god and the devil make a bet whether Job will curse god if Job loses all his wealth and family. As expected, Job does. It is easy to say this in retrospect, but I would have bet on the devil.

Then Job asks god, "why?" A legitimate question. God gives him a line of crap about how Job's mind is too small to comprehend the reasons. I'd have more respect for god if he was honest and said it was because I made a bet on you.



Oh, I think it's crap, too. But very powerful, beautifully written crap nonetheless. It was worth a lot more 800 years ago, since then its value has declined. The only reason I'm taking Aquinas's side in this is because he was a thinker of his time and place. He couldn't have come up with monads, or existentialism; giants have to stand on the shoulders of giants. His were shoulders that bore weight.
A falling knife has no handle.
Mosca
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January 15th, 2011 at 7:53:44 AM permalink
Quote: JerryLogan

Non-believers, besides an inert laziness shown by taking the easy way out when it comes to the very thoughtful & warm-hearted process of having a belief in God, always use the most simplistic of views when trying to convert us to their way of thinking (and that is their doctrine if you watched the US top atheist on Bill O'Reilly) yet dig down deep for the most nebulous of reasoning dictated by the Catholic Church, as rationale for their disbelief.



Studies have shown that most atheists know a lot more about religions then those who are religious. I can only speak for myself, it was not an easy answer to accept, and I only came to it through a lifetime of anguished thought. I wouldn't recommend anyone to take it as received wisdom, but only as something independently arrived at, at least in today's world.

I myself know quite a bit about Catholic doctrine; I used to teach CCD classes, my daughter went to Catholic school and is currently at a Catholic university.
A falling knife has no handle.
mkl654321
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January 15th, 2011 at 9:00:47 AM permalink
Quote: Wizard

Speaking of laziness, that sounds like a very lazy faith. Where is the action and the works? I thought your purpose in life is supposed to be set a good example and bring others to the faith. Do you think you're setting a good example here? If Jesus posted here would he be rude and insulting in almost every post?



I also find it rather contradictory that someone who professes a faith whose foundation is love and tolerance would be such an intolerant, bigoted, racist, insulting, abrasive, confrontational, rude, unmannered, hatred-spewing, misogynist, braying, babbling pain in the ass in virtually every post. I won't mention his illogical thought processes and faulty reasoning other than to note that his thought processes are illogical and his reasoning is faulty.

But then, we must remember that the persona "JerryLogan" isn't necessarily the same as the person, "Jerry Logan". Maybe the real Jerry is just a lovable ol' fuzzball in real life. It could be that he uses the internet to spew out all his hatred and anger, using this and other forums like a cat uses its litterbox. After doing that, the real Jerry is a shining beacon of Christian "love one another" tolerance and gentleness. The rest of us are then left with the used litterbox.
The fact that a believer is happier than a skeptic is no more to the point than the fact that a drunken man is happier than a sober one. The happiness of credulity is a cheap and dangerous quality.---George Bernard Shaw
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