Darkoz's AP Totem Pole
February 1st, 2024 at 3:54:23 PM
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I have a list of where Advantage Plays and players land on my totem pole of importance. So to define them here is the criteria.
1)Profit expectations (not potential so Longshot plays aren't included). What are the expectations of making profit on a regular basis and how much?
2) AP controllability.
That's pretty much it. So let's look at some examples.
Bus hustling - riding the bus for hours to collect freeplay that has a profit potential (eg Sands would have a $12 bus ticket for $45 freeplay.)
That's extremely low on the totem pole. Almost bottom barrel because the profit potential is extremely low, takes a lot of hours and has really no scalability. You can't get off the bus with any more than your own card (although it's been done it never lasts long.)
Surprisingly it's higher than trying to get people to insert your card in their machine. Why?
Point Hustling - inserting your Player's card into other people's slots. The profit potential is higher than bus hustling if you can get enough points racked up however there is just no controllability. How much a person gambles on your card or even IF you can get someone to agree is out of your control. Compare that to bus hustling where the schedule is locked and the bus hustler is in full control of taking the bus and obtaining his offers (controllability has nothing to do with the casino refusing to honor offers. It refers to the AP ability to control schedule and expected outcome.)
At the top of the totem pole would be something like edge sorting (even after the Phil Ivey incident).
Multicarding is up there for obvious reasons. Even higher than Must Hit vulturing. Why?
Both can be highly profitable but Must Hits suffer on controllability. The Must Hit hunter has to wait and wait looking for machines to be playable and even after all that can have the opportunity nabbed by someone else or a must hit triggers early negating all the work keeping tabs on the machine.
So there you have it. If you have an Advantage Play now you too can determine where you sit on the DarkOz AP Totem Pole.
1)Profit expectations (not potential so Longshot plays aren't included). What are the expectations of making profit on a regular basis and how much?
2) AP controllability.
That's pretty much it. So let's look at some examples.
Bus hustling - riding the bus for hours to collect freeplay that has a profit potential (eg Sands would have a $12 bus ticket for $45 freeplay.)
That's extremely low on the totem pole. Almost bottom barrel because the profit potential is extremely low, takes a lot of hours and has really no scalability. You can't get off the bus with any more than your own card (although it's been done it never lasts long.)
Surprisingly it's higher than trying to get people to insert your card in their machine. Why?
Point Hustling - inserting your Player's card into other people's slots. The profit potential is higher than bus hustling if you can get enough points racked up however there is just no controllability. How much a person gambles on your card or even IF you can get someone to agree is out of your control. Compare that to bus hustling where the schedule is locked and the bus hustler is in full control of taking the bus and obtaining his offers (controllability has nothing to do with the casino refusing to honor offers. It refers to the AP ability to control schedule and expected outcome.)
At the top of the totem pole would be something like edge sorting (even after the Phil Ivey incident).
Multicarding is up there for obvious reasons. Even higher than Must Hit vulturing. Why?
Both can be highly profitable but Must Hits suffer on controllability. The Must Hit hunter has to wait and wait looking for machines to be playable and even after all that can have the opportunity nabbed by someone else or a must hit triggers early negating all the work keeping tabs on the machine.
So there you have it. If you have an Advantage Play now you too can determine where you sit on the DarkOz AP Totem Pole.
For Whom the bus tolls; The bus tolls for thee
February 1st, 2024 at 5:12:14 PM
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Great. Now we have a member naming a thread after his totem pole.
So, you rank AP opportunities by a) Profit expectations and b) Controllability. Profound. What about level of heat? What about location? (Some APs have written about the desirability to only play in a casino for a short period of time then move to another near-by casino. Requires locations with multiple casinos, obviously). Some players identify issues and uncertainties when using a team, so some say they prefer opportunities that can be exploited using only themselves or with one trusted partner.
So, you rank AP opportunities by a) Profit expectations and b) Controllability. Profound. What about level of heat? What about location? (Some APs have written about the desirability to only play in a casino for a short period of time then move to another near-by casino. Requires locations with multiple casinos, obviously). Some players identify issues and uncertainties when using a team, so some say they prefer opportunities that can be exploited using only themselves or with one trusted partner.
So many better men, a few of them friends, are dead. And a thousand thousand slimy things live on, and so do I.
February 1st, 2024 at 6:12:53 PM
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Quote: gordonm888Great. Now we have a member naming a thread after his totem pole.
So, you rank AP opportunities by a) Profit expectations and b) Controllability. Profound. What about level of heat? What about location? (Some APs have written about the desirability to only play in a casino for a short period of time then move to another near-by casino. Requires locations with multiple casinos, obviously). Some players identify issues and uncertainties when using a team, so some say they prefer opportunities that can be exploited using only themselves or with one trusted partner.
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Those are other people's totem poles. I don't touch other people's totem poles!
But level of heat, location etc are factors in deciding whether to pursue an opportunity.
My totem pole is a measurement of how high up in respectability an AP measures.
Not trusting other team members, heat in a casino are not factors in respectability of a play.
It's a measurement of where you are in the business office. A clerk vs VP or CEO. Whether there's politics or factors that make operations difficult is another conversation
For Whom the bus tolls; The bus tolls for thee
February 1st, 2024 at 6:22:07 PM
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You are not looking at the whole picture of bus hustling. You need to take it to the extreme.
1) advertise cheap adult babysitting. $30 a day as an intro price. Get a dozen clients. $360 a day in revenue. Pay a taxi company to pick everyone up and drop them off at the bus ($100 expense). Have one aide buy the tickets and get the people on the bus. Provide snacks and trivia contest cards. Collect $33 profit for each of the dozen. If you want to push it, do two roundtrips. When people complain, offer to watch the old folks for free. A few bucks to the right person at an old age home will give you all the necessary seat fillers.
1) advertise cheap adult babysitting. $30 a day as an intro price. Get a dozen clients. $360 a day in revenue. Pay a taxi company to pick everyone up and drop them off at the bus ($100 expense). Have one aide buy the tickets and get the people on the bus. Provide snacks and trivia contest cards. Collect $33 profit for each of the dozen. If you want to push it, do two roundtrips. When people complain, offer to watch the old folks for free. A few bucks to the right person at an old age home will give you all the necessary seat fillers.
The older I get, the better I recall things that never happened
February 1st, 2024 at 6:26:52 PM
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The point hustling is EXTREMELY RISKY. I just got a 24 hour ban for doing exactly that at a Casino that I've been a loyal Customer for 10 years. At least the bus hustle isn't risky at all.
In both The Hunger Games and in gambling, may the odds be ever in your favor. :D
"Man Babes" #AxelFabulous
"Olive oil is processed but it only has one
ingredient, olive oil."-Even Bob, March 27/28th. :D The 2 year war is over! Woo-hoo! :D
I sometimes speak in metaphors. ;) Remember this. ;)
Crack the code. :D 8.9.13.25.14.1.13.5.9.19.14.1.20.8.1.14! :D
"For about the 4096th time, let me offer a radical idea to those of you who don't like Nathan -- block her and don't visit Nathan's Corner. What is so complicated about it?" Wizard, August 21st. :D
February 1st, 2024 at 6:31:20 PM
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Quote: billryanYou are not looking at the whole picture of bus hustling. You need to take it to the extreme.
1) advertise cheap adult babysitting. $30 a day as an intro price. Get a dozen clients. $360 a day in revenue. Pay a taxi company to pick everyone up and drop them off at the bus ($100 expense). Have one aide buy the tickets and get the people on the bus. Provide snacks and trivia contest cards. Collect $33 profit for each of the dozen. If you want to push it, do two roundtrips. When people complain, offer to watch the old folks for free. A few bucks to the right person at an old age home will give you all the necessary seat fillers.
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Lol, I actually did something like that (not the babysitting part).
That's circa 2012 when I was first starting to AP.
You will be surprised what an utter nightmare any type of schedule coordination there is with people. I made about four trips and then never tried it again.
Issues for example are you line up a dozen clients, four actually show up. Tell them sorry trip canceled? Fat chance they return. You wind up making the trip anyway and after expenses it's probably a loss.
Bigger offers, like $300 for someone to show up and you get more responsible people but can't pay that amount on a bus hustle.
For Whom the bus tolls; The bus tolls for thee
February 1st, 2024 at 6:33:48 PM
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Quote: NathanThe point hustling is EXTREMELY RISKY. I just got a 24 hour ban for doing exactly that at a Casino that I've been a loyal Customer for 10 years. At least the bus hustle isn't risky at all.
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People have been banned and permanently for bus hustling.
If you want to AP, take the heat or get out the kitchen. It's legal (vs. Cheating moves) so jail is not a concern. It's AP vs. Casino! War! There Will Be Blood!
For Whom the bus tolls; The bus tolls for thee
February 1st, 2024 at 6:39:46 PM
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Quote: darkozQuote: billryanYou are not looking at the whole picture of bus hustling. You need to take it to the extreme.
1) advertise cheap adult babysitting. $30 a day as an intro price. Get a dozen clients. $360 a day in revenue. Pay a taxi company to pick everyone up and drop them off at the bus ($100 expense). Have one aide buy the tickets and get the people on the bus. Provide snacks and trivia contest cards. Collect $33 profit for each of the dozen. If you want to push it, do two roundtrips. When people complain, offer to watch the old folks for free. A few bucks to the right person at an old age home will give you all the necessary seat fillers.
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Lol, I actually did something like that (not the babysitting part).
That's circa 2012 when I was first starting to AP.
You will be surprised what an utter nightmare any type of schedule coordination there is with people. I made about four trips and then never tried it again.
Issues for example are you line up a dozen clients, four actually show up. Tell them sorry trip canceled? Fat chance they return. You wind up making the trip anyway and after expenses it's probably a loss.
Bigger offers, like $300 for someone to show up and you get more responsible people but can't pay that amount on a bus hustle.
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Isn't being a junket host awfully close to honest work?
;)
(A lady in the neighborhood charters tour buses and seems to have a pretty good thing going. I'm tempted to take a day trip and try to make conversation.)
May the cards fall in your favor.
February 1st, 2024 at 7:01:28 PM
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Quote: darkozQuote: NathanThe point hustling is EXTREMELY RISKY. I just got a 24 hour ban for doing exactly that at a Casino that I've been a loyal Customer for 10 years. At least the bus hustle isn't risky at all.
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People have been banned and permanently for bus hustling.
If you want to AP, take the heat or get out the kitchen. It's legal (vs. Cheating moves) so jail is not a concern. It's AP vs. Casino! War! There Will Be Blood!
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People get banned for bus hustling? :O :/ I don't get why. You get free play after buying a $12 bus ticket. I don't get why anyone would get banned for that. :/
In both The Hunger Games and in gambling, may the odds be ever in your favor. :D
"Man Babes" #AxelFabulous
"Olive oil is processed but it only has one
ingredient, olive oil."-Even Bob, March 27/28th. :D The 2 year war is over! Woo-hoo! :D
I sometimes speak in metaphors. ;) Remember this. ;)
Crack the code. :D 8.9.13.25.14.1.13.5.9.19.14.1.20.8.1.14! :D
"For about the 4096th time, let me offer a radical idea to those of you who don't like Nathan -- block her and don't visit Nathan's Corner. What is so complicated about it?" Wizard, August 21st. :D
February 1st, 2024 at 7:18:14 PM
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Quote: NathanQuote: darkozQuote: NathanThe point hustling is EXTREMELY RISKY. I just got a 24 hour ban for doing exactly that at a Casino that I've been a loyal Customer for 10 years. At least the bus hustle isn't risky at all.
link to original post
People have been banned and permanently for bus hustling.
If you want to AP, take the heat or get out the kitchen. It's legal (vs. Cheating moves) so jail is not a concern. It's AP vs. Casino! War! There Will Be Blood!
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People get banned for bus hustling? :O :/ I don't get why. You get free play after buying a $12 bus ticket. I don't get why anyone would get banned for that. :/
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Some places are sweaty about anyone who turns a profit
For example someone who travels by bus every day, takes the bus comp, and immediately leaves after playing it.
I think it was the Tropicana which checked addresses of people getting offers. If you lived in AC, they denied the comp. It was meant for getting gambling customers from NY, not helping subsidze AC residents employed in the city.
I have seen casinos bounce people for UNNECESSARY bus travel. There was a local casino that offered a decent bus comp. People who lived right near the casino would travel by local bus transportation (paying $2 for subway for example) to take the bus BACK to the casino just to get the comp.
Also if the bus ride is short enough and the casino doesn't tie the comp directly to the card people have done multiple same day round trips.
For Whom the bus tolls; The bus tolls for thee
February 1st, 2024 at 7:27:59 PM
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The entire totem pole is a low end scheme. Someone else called it a one trick pony I suppose that’s another way to describe it.
But if you multiple enough low end schemes they add up to something. Which is why the casinos are determined to discourage this sort of thing. Ya' follow?
One man desperate for a bit of fuel is pathetic.
Five million people desperate for fuel will destroy a city.
But if you multiple enough low end schemes they add up to something. Which is why the casinos are determined to discourage this sort of thing. Ya' follow?
One man desperate for a bit of fuel is pathetic.
Five million people desperate for fuel will destroy a city.
I tell you it’s wonderful to be here, man. I don’t give a damn who wins or loses. It’s just wonderful to be here with you people.
https://wizardofvegas.com/forum/gambling/betting-systems/33908-the-adventures-of-mdawg/
February 1st, 2024 at 7:32:20 PM
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Quote: MDawgThe entire totem pole is a low end scheme. Someone else called it a one trick pony I suppose that’s another way to describe it.
But if you multiple enough low end schemes they add up to something.
One man desperate for a bit of fuel is pathetic.
Five million people desperate for fuel will destroy a city.
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I don't think MDawg gets it.
For Whom the bus tolls; The bus tolls for thee
February 1st, 2024 at 7:33:48 PM
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Quote: SandybestdogNot saying it’s easy but he’s a one trick pony.
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I tell you it’s wonderful to be here, man. I don’t give a damn who wins or loses. It’s just wonderful to be here with you people.
https://wizardofvegas.com/forum/gambling/betting-systems/33908-the-adventures-of-mdawg/
February 1st, 2024 at 7:38:59 PM
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Quote: MDawgQuote: SandybestdogNot saying it’s easy but he’s a one trick pony.
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But what does that have to do with a measurement device of all AP?
Absolutely nothing! So clearly you didn't understand the purpose of the OP.
Also one trick pony? So what?
My dentist is a one trick pony. He does teeth only. No podiatry or gastric bypass.
So sad, he's a one trick pony (SMH)
For Whom the bus tolls; The bus tolls for thee
February 1st, 2024 at 7:52:42 PM
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Quote: MDawgThe entire [DarkOz described] totem pole is a low end scheme.
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Other than the one outlier you stuck in there, "At the top of the totem pole would be something like edge sorting (even after the Phil Ivey incident)."
I tell you it’s wonderful to be here, man. I don’t give a damn who wins or loses. It’s just wonderful to be here with you people.
https://wizardofvegas.com/forum/gambling/betting-systems/33908-the-adventures-of-mdawg/
February 1st, 2024 at 7:59:51 PM
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Quote: MDawgQuote: MDawgThe entire [DarkOz described] totem pole is a low end scheme.
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Other than the one outlier you stuck in there, "At the top of the totem pole would be something like edge sorting (even after the Phil Ivey incident)."
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The totem is not a scheme of any kind.
It's a measurement device.
You really don't get that?
What you are doing is like a diet plan and calling the weight scale to measure progress a low end diet.
For Whom the bus tolls; The bus tolls for thee
February 1st, 2024 at 8:01:47 PM
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You spend a lot of words trying to describe someone else's thinking when you could be concentrating on your own.
Quote: mdawg
It's a low end scheme.
I tell you it’s wonderful to be here, man. I don’t give a damn who wins or loses. It’s just wonderful to be here with you people.
https://wizardofvegas.com/forum/gambling/betting-systems/33908-the-adventures-of-mdawg/
February 1st, 2024 at 8:07:57 PM
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A really good AP can live off his income full time.
Some people think they are AP's but require their day jobs to really support them.
They usually are very jealous of full time AP's, secretly desiring to be them.
Some people think they are AP's but require their day jobs to really support them.
They usually are very jealous of full time AP's, secretly desiring to be them.
For Whom the bus tolls; The bus tolls for thee
February 1st, 2024 at 8:13:48 PM
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Yeah, they are jealous. That's the ticket.
The older I get, the better I recall things that never happened
February 1st, 2024 at 8:17:41 PM
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Again,
Actually, it depends on what one's ambitions are.
You know the sums I've reported in my session reports and yet they aren't enough for me to want to do nothing but that, or perhaps I'd rather do something else entirely regardless of the relative income. On the other hand, maybe whatever it is you feel that you've accumulated (or are accumulating ) is enough for you, or perhaps you feel like there is nothing else you could do.
Gordo and Dieter were right too when discussing "relative risk" / longevity.
Why even bother to offer a totem pole, if you can't consider the possibility that it might be wrong? or imprecise, or inaccurate, or incomplete.
Quote: MDawgYou spend a lot of words trying to describe someone else's thinking when you could be concentrating on your own.
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Actually, it depends on what one's ambitions are.
You know the sums I've reported in my session reports and yet they aren't enough for me to want to do nothing but that, or perhaps I'd rather do something else entirely regardless of the relative income. On the other hand, maybe whatever it is you feel that you've accumulated (or are accumulating ) is enough for you, or perhaps you feel like there is nothing else you could do.
Gordo and Dieter were right too when discussing "relative risk" / longevity.
Why even bother to offer a totem pole, if you can't consider the possibility that it might be wrong? or imprecise, or inaccurate, or incomplete.
Last edited by: MDawg on Feb 1, 2024
I tell you it’s wonderful to be here, man. I don’t give a damn who wins or loses. It’s just wonderful to be here with you people.
https://wizardofvegas.com/forum/gambling/betting-systems/33908-the-adventures-of-mdawg/
February 1st, 2024 at 8:30:53 PM
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Quote: MDawgAgain,
Quote: MDawgYou spend a lot of words trying to describe someone else's thinking when you could be concentrating on your own.
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Actually, it depends on what one's ambitions are.
You know the sums I've reported in my session reports and yet they aren't enough for me to want to do nothing but that, or perhaps I'd rather do something else entirely regardless of the relative income. On the other hand, maybe whatever it is you feel that you've accumulated (or are accumulating ) is enough for you, or perhaps you feel like there is nothing else you could do.
Gordo and Dieter were right too when discussing "relative risk" / longevity.
Why even bother to offer a totem pole, if you can't consider the possibility that it might be wrong? or imprecise, or inaccurate.
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Lol, love people who don't take their own advice.
For Whom the bus tolls; The bus tolls for thee
February 1st, 2024 at 8:36:06 PM
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Again,
Can you even explain why the Phil Ivey edge sorting is at the top of the D.Oz totem pole? He didn't get away with a nickel unless there was something he did with Yin Sun that was never reported.
Quote: MDawgYou spend a lot of words trying to describe someone else's thinking when you could be concentrating on your own.
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Can you even explain why the Phil Ivey edge sorting is at the top of the D.Oz totem pole? He didn't get away with a nickel unless there was something he did with Yin Sun that was never reported.
I tell you it’s wonderful to be here, man. I don’t give a damn who wins or loses. It’s just wonderful to be here with you people.
https://wizardofvegas.com/forum/gambling/betting-systems/33908-the-adventures-of-mdawg/
February 1st, 2024 at 8:43:17 PM
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Quote: MDawgAgain,
Quote: MDawgYou spend a lot of words trying to describe someone else's thinking when you could be concentrating on your own.
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Can you even explain why the Phil Ivey edge sorting is at the top of the D.Oz totem pole? He didn't get away with a nickel unless there was something he did with Yin Sun that was never reported.
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Phil Ivey didn't get away with his edge sorting cause he went too far. If he had only won a few hundred thousand at his wagering levels he probably would have slipped through the radar.
Hitting the casinos for millions in a few days invited the legal fight.
The art of edge sorting is still a top of the totem pole AP. As I have already stated, heat and getting away with an AP is a poor metric because just about all AP will end up with heat at some point.
For Whom the bus tolls; The bus tolls for thee
February 1st, 2024 at 8:47:40 PM
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Why do you consider multicarding “up there”?
I tell you it’s wonderful to be here, man. I don’t give a damn who wins or loses. It’s just wonderful to be here with you people.
https://wizardofvegas.com/forum/gambling/betting-systems/33908-the-adventures-of-mdawg/
February 1st, 2024 at 8:52:35 PM
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Quote: MDawgWhy do you consider multicarding “up there”?
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Because it's
1) very profitable
2) very controllable. I am not waiting for opportunities like with vultures but making opportunities.
Did you even read the first post?
For Whom the bus tolls; The bus tolls for thee
February 1st, 2024 at 8:56:04 PM
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But it’s much lower on your t pole than something that might make a few hundred K.
I tell you it’s wonderful to be here, man. I don’t give a damn who wins or loses. It’s just wonderful to be here with you people.
https://wizardofvegas.com/forum/gambling/betting-systems/33908-the-adventures-of-mdawg/
February 1st, 2024 at 8:59:04 PM
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Quote: MDawgBut it’s much lower than something that might make a few hundred K.
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I make a few hundred thousand just myself alone.
Got a whole crew living off multicarding.
I pull well over a million out of casinos each year although with expenses it doesn't all go in my pocket.
Could you explain what you mean by "much lower"?
For Whom the bus tolls; The bus tolls for thee
February 1st, 2024 at 9:01:35 PM
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You assigned the relative values yourself. Those are telling. The rest I don’t believe and never have. There might be periods where there’s something decent coming in but others - not much or even losing.
I tell you it’s wonderful to be here, man. I don’t give a damn who wins or loses. It’s just wonderful to be here with you people.
https://wizardofvegas.com/forum/gambling/betting-systems/33908-the-adventures-of-mdawg/
February 1st, 2024 at 9:10:49 PM
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Quote: MDawgYou assigned the relative values yourself. Those are telling. The rest I don’t believe and never have. There might be periods where there’s something decent coming in but others - not much or even losing.
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As the Wizard has stated you are welcome to doubt.
I don't know why you would doubt it. Except the AP move I do is so far beyond your understanding of the move that you can't grasp how it works
You kept insisting at one point that my AP was rounding up homeless people to obtain $10 new members offers.
That's telling that you don't have a clue how multicarding works. So your disbelief in my claims stems from lack of understanding.
But that's your problem not mine.
For Whom the bus tolls; The bus tolls for thee
February 1st, 2024 at 9:25:36 PM
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A picture is worth a thousand words.
So many better men, a few of them friends, are dead. And a thousand thousand slimy things live on, and so do I.
February 1st, 2024 at 9:30:10 PM
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Quote: gordonm888A picture is worth a thousand words.
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Just how I envisioned it.
For Whom the bus tolls; The bus tolls for thee
February 2nd, 2024 at 5:18:16 AM
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Darkoz, someone gave the advice to play low when the Plant Alien from Little Shop Of Horrors is tiny, and then play HUGE when the Plant Alien is HUGE (The Plant Alien being HUGE) is supposed to mean that he is going to give the "I'm going wild!" Free spins Bonus soon. What do you think about that AP advice move? It makes sense to me.
In both The Hunger Games and in gambling, may the odds be ever in your favor. :D
"Man Babes" #AxelFabulous
"Olive oil is processed but it only has one
ingredient, olive oil."-Even Bob, March 27/28th. :D The 2 year war is over! Woo-hoo! :D
I sometimes speak in metaphors. ;) Remember this. ;)
Crack the code. :D 8.9.13.25.14.1.13.5.9.19.14.1.20.8.1.14! :D
"For about the 4096th time, let me offer a radical idea to those of you who don't like Nathan -- block her and don't visit Nathan's Corner. What is so complicated about it?" Wizard, August 21st. :D
February 2nd, 2024 at 5:50:10 AM
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Does multi-carding include taking cards that have been left/abandoned at slots machines? I'm not saying DarkOz does it; I'm just curious if you can in theory multi-card by collecting fresh cards that you find around the machines. I don't play slots and I have done that in Atlantic City, but only to get free parking at Borgata and Ocean Resort.
February 2nd, 2024 at 6:19:04 AM
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Quote: NathanDarkoz, someone gave the advice to play low when the Plant Alien from Little Shop Of Horrors is tiny, and then play HUGE when the Plant Alien is HUGE (The Plant Alien being HUGE) is supposed to mean that he is going to give the "I'm going wild!" Free spins Bonus soon. What do you think about that AP advice move? It makes sense to me.
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While I played little shop slots for fun a few times it's not an AP move from what I can tell.
For Whom the bus tolls; The bus tolls for thee
February 2nd, 2024 at 6:24:02 AM
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Quote: QuadrigaDoes multi-carding include taking cards that have been left/abandoned at slots machines? I'm not saying DarkOz does it; I'm just curious if you can in theory multi-card by collecting fresh cards that you find around the machines. I don't play slots and I have done that in Atlantic City, but only to get free parking at Borgata and Ocean Resort.
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I most certainly do NOT do that.
I suppose since it involves multiple cards one could call it that.
Using someone else's card WITH their permission vs using someone else's card WITHOUT their permission is really the same difference as driving someone else's car WITH their permission vs. Driving someone else's car WITHOUT their permission. The former is legal, the latter is illegal.
For Whom the bus tolls; The bus tolls for thee
February 2nd, 2024 at 6:35:40 AM
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Quote: darkozQuote: NathanDarkoz, someone gave the advice to play low when the Plant Alien from Little Shop Of Horrors is tiny, and then play HUGE when the Plant Alien is HUGE (The Plant Alien being HUGE) is supposed to mean that he is going to give the "I'm going wild!" Free spins Bonus soon. What do you think about that AP advice move? It makes sense to me.
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While I played little shop slots for fun a few times it's not an AP move from what I can tell.
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Hmm. LSOH has MULTIPLE Progressives, The Girls Progressive, Mushnik Progressive, Audrey Progressive, Seymour Progressive, and the All Wilds/Grand Progressive. Seems like that means it's an AP machine to me.
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February 2nd, 2024 at 7:30:05 AM
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Quote: NathanQuote: darkozQuote: NathanDarkoz, someone gave the advice to play low when the Plant Alien from Little Shop Of Horrors is tiny, and then play HUGE when the Plant Alien is HUGE (The Plant Alien being HUGE) is supposed to mean that he is going to give the "I'm going wild!" Free spins Bonus soon. What do you think about that AP advice move? It makes sense to me.
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While I played little shop slots for fun a few times it's not an AP move from what I can tell.
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Hmm. LSOH has MULTIPLE Progressives, The Girls Progressive, Mushnik Progressive, Audrey Progressive, Seymour Progressive, and the All Wilds/Grand Progressive. Seems like that means it's an AP machine to me.
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Well hit that machine and report back to us how well you do.
For Whom the bus tolls; The bus tolls for thee
February 2nd, 2024 at 12:25:07 PM
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Does any form of sports betting fit on the totem pole, and if so, where? Seems like some people make a decent amount with sharp betting, +EV betting, arbitrage, matched betting, or just bonus whoring.
Edit: forgot to add, owning a casino, book, poker room, poker club, etc. would be up there.
Edit: forgot to add, owning a casino, book, poker room, poker club, etc. would be up there.
February 2nd, 2024 at 1:24:34 PM
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I'm getting $20 meal credits and 2 X $25 match plays on even money bets (usually use them on the Pass Line) twice a week. Marketing department seems to have woken up. Don't know how long this will last. I was sick with COVID in January, so I missed most of the offers last month. The sports betting lounge has a bar and a menu so I got a double mushroom burger and some fries and free refills on my soda for my meal comp last night. I won both of my match plays on a $10 craps table, so I'm up $7 for the year now. I've lost 15 pounds since October, so I'm not looking to fatten up using these meal comps, but I might be eating better, idk. I had an 8 oz. steak last week at the restaurant.
February 2nd, 2024 at 1:51:01 PM
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Quote: gordonm888A picture is worth a thousand words.
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Am I the only one who is wondering whether the wooden totem pole in this jpg may have some "morning w..." - you know.. "Is excited to see us."
So many better men, a few of them friends, are dead. And a thousand thousand slimy things live on, and so do I.
February 2nd, 2024 at 2:13:43 PM
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Back in the mid 1990's I used to take a bus tour and they'd give us a fun book with a $20 in silver token coupon, 2 X $5 match plays - free Ace on BJ, and a free buffet ($3.99 value). The bus fare was $5 for a round trip of 100 minutes each way and a 6 hour stay at the casino. There were $2 & $3 Black Jack tables that most of the riders played at. There were a couple rich old ladies who would bet hard on the quarter & dollar slot machines.
Just multiply by 5 for what would be a normal comparison for inflation, but no, more like 8.
Just multiply by 5 for what would be a normal comparison for inflation, but no, more like 8.
Last edited by: ChumpChange on Feb 2, 2024
February 2nd, 2024 at 2:41:30 PM
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Quote: TaxrBuxDoes any form of sports betting fit on the totem pole, and if so, where? Seems like some people make a decent amount with sharp betting, +EV betting, arbitrage, matched betting, or just bonus whoring.
Edit: forgot to add, owning a casino, book, poker room, poker club, etc. would be up there.
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Certainly.
Take whatever AP you are familiar with and see how it fares as profitable and controllable.
I just gave a few examples of AP. I wasn't stating that was the only AP that fits.
Good luck.
For Whom the bus tolls; The bus tolls for thee
February 2nd, 2024 at 3:36:21 PM
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Quote: darkozQuote: MDawgAgain,
Quote: MDawgYou spend a lot of words trying to describe someone else's thinking when you could be concentrating on your own.
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Can you even explain why the Phil Ivey edge sorting is at the top of the D.Oz totem pole? He didn't get away with a nickel unless there was something he did with Yin Sun that was never reported.
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Phil Ivey didn't get away with his edge sorting cause he went too far. If he had only won a few hundred thousand at his wagering levels he probably would have slipped through the radar.
Hitting the casinos for millions in a few days invited the legal fight.
The art of edge sorting is still a top of the totem pole AP. As I have already stated, heat and getting away with an AP is a poor metric because just about all AP will end up with heat at some point.
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Mmmm I don't know. I think if I was in the spot I would have done the same thing. You don't think they would have done the same thing if he had just won $500k? Casinos have chased you out for far less. I think his thinking at the time was it's their game, I'm not touching the cards, they agreed to everything, I'm just playing the game how they set it up. There's no way they can come after me and say it was anything except a legal contest. But sure enough they did. It's just shocking that Borgata fought so hard. What's even more shocking is they won. I don't think anyone would have thought at the time that a casino could sue and actually win against someone to get back winnings that were won playing a game that they agreed to.
February 2nd, 2024 at 4:20:44 PM
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Quote: SandybestdogQuote: darkozQuote: MDawgAgain,
Quote: MDawgYou spend a lot of words trying to describe someone else's thinking when you could be concentrating on your own.
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Can you even explain why the Phil Ivey edge sorting is at the top of the D.Oz totem pole? He didn't get away with a nickel unless there was something he did with Yin Sun that was never reported.
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Phil Ivey didn't get away with his edge sorting cause he went too far. If he had only won a few hundred thousand at his wagering levels he probably would have slipped through the radar.
Hitting the casinos for millions in a few days invited the legal fight.
The art of edge sorting is still a top of the totem pole AP. As I have already stated, heat and getting away with an AP is a poor metric because just about all AP will end up with heat at some point.
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Mmmm I don't know. I think if I was in the spot I would have done the same thing. You don't think they would have done the same thing if he had just won $500k? Casinos have chased you out for far less. I think his thinking at the time was it's their game, I'm not touching the cards, they agreed to everything, I'm just playing the game how they set it up. There's no way they can come after me and say it was anything except a legal contest. But sure enough they did. It's just shocking that Borgata fought so hard. What's even more shocking is they won. I don't think anyone would have thought at the time that a casino could sue and actually win against someone to get back winnings that were won playing a game that they agreed to.
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That's also a possibility. But with lower wins they may have just shrugged it off as good variance. He hit them for millions on a few different days that they did the investigation. In other words, he made it hot.
It's a hypothetical we won't ever know. I do agree the outcome of the case was shocking although I find law enforcement and the justice system has the opinion that if you win at a Casino it must be a bad thing. To them casinos are a business should take your money. The outcome of the Phil Ivey suit was totally twisted on a number of levels.
For example the judge made him pay back EVERYTHING. Phil had won millions at edge sorting BUT then won a few hundred K at Craps. He was never accused of manipulation of the dice. Why would he be forced to pay that back as well (although the final settlement was secret so perhaps that was part of it. I would certainly argue the Craps action shouldn't be returned. )
For Whom the bus tolls; The bus tolls for thee
February 2nd, 2024 at 4:40:12 PM
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When you don’t know you don’t knowQuote: MDawgAgain,
Quote: MDawgYou spend a lot of words trying to describe someone else's thinking when you could be concentrating on your own.
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Can you even explain why the Phil Ivey edge sorting is at the top of the D.Oz totem pole? He didn't get away with a nickel unless there was something he did with Yin Sun that was never reported.
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Happy days are here again
February 5th, 2024 at 8:17:49 AM
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Then assuming that Mikki, Don Johnson, etc. did actually win / are winning, they are at the top of the totem pole. MDawg would be somewhere below those points, but still near the top.
I tell you it’s wonderful to be here, man. I don’t give a damn who wins or loses. It’s just wonderful to be here with you people.
https://wizardofvegas.com/forum/gambling/betting-systems/33908-the-adventures-of-mdawg/
February 5th, 2024 at 12:06:27 PM
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I have the ultimate AP. Casinos rarely kick you out if you just fly under the radar with this neat trick. I show up every day and swipe my card at one machine twice a day and they even put the money directly into my bank account.
That machine? The time clock.
That machine? The time clock.
Aut inveniam viam aut faciam
February 5th, 2024 at 12:56:12 PM
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Well that comes back to the argument of there's nothing better than a free suite, a free meal and fifty grand of casino winnings.
Of course, there's also not much worse in the gaming scheme of things than having to pay fifty grand in losses for the same.
An even keel is definitely the safest way to go...not necessarily the best or most fun.
Of course, there's also not much worse in the gaming scheme of things than having to pay fifty grand in losses for the same.
An even keel is definitely the safest way to go...not necessarily the best or most fun.
I tell you it’s wonderful to be here, man. I don’t give a damn who wins or loses. It’s just wonderful to be here with you people.
https://wizardofvegas.com/forum/gambling/betting-systems/33908-the-adventures-of-mdawg/
February 5th, 2024 at 12:58:57 PM
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Quote: AitchTheLetterI have the ultimate AP. Casinos rarely kick you out if you just fly under the radar with this neat trick. I show up every day and swipe my card at one machine twice a day and they even put the money directly into my bank account.
That machine? The time clock.
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February 5th, 2024 at 3:31:47 PM
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Quote: MDawgThen assuming that Mikki, Don Johnson, etc. did actually win / are winning, they are at the top of the totem pole. MDawg would be somewhere below those points, but still near the top.
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I would agree with that assessment although it is an AP totem pole.
I recall years ago you saying you won without AP but at some point you had a sea change and started claiming to use AP. This was years ago so don't hold me to it.
But if you just are using non-AP techniques to win (I have a feeling...) then no.
If you are using advanced AP techniques some of which I gave my own opinion on years ago then yes you would be at the very near top of the totem pole as profit and controllability are high factors in your play.
For Whom the bus tolls; The bus tolls for thee
