100xOdds
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April 14th, 2023 at 5:57:35 AM permalink


I saw a deep pocketed AP who plays $5k and $10k must-hits play off freeplay from multiple cards on v-bj.

Yet, while he's doing that, i found a play within eyesight of him.
Then walking around, i found 2 more plays.

Why would a multi-carding AP play off freeplay on v-bj when there are plays available?
Craps is paradise (Pair of dice). Lets hear it for the SpeedCount Mathletes :)
billryan
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April 14th, 2023 at 6:23:33 AM permalink
Quote: 100xOdds



I saw a deep pocketed AP who plays $5k and $10k must-hits play off freeplay from multiple cards on v-bj.

Yet, while he's doing that, i found a play within eyesight of him.
Then walking around, i found 2 more plays.

Why would a multi-carding AP play off freeplay on v-bj when there are plays available?
link to original post



When playing with free play, a push is a win. Do the math.
The difference between fiction and reality is that fiction is supposed to make sense.
Dieter
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April 14th, 2023 at 6:43:43 AM permalink
I know when I've helped a friend by picking up "their" freeplay, I didn't want anyone to have reason to compare my ID with their player's card and cause a hassle for my friend later.

There are plenty of people who prefer the "floor" value of likely returns to approximate the par value of the freeplay, instead of having higher variance wins.

The 5 for 2 games can be played off fairly quickly, spending minimal mental effort, and with pretty decent return (better than single coin deuces) without resorting to CD strategy.
May the cards fall in your favor.
darkoz
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April 14th, 2023 at 7:50:43 AM permalink
Quote: 100xOdds



I saw a deep pocketed AP who plays $5k and $10k must-hits play off freeplay from multiple cards on v-bj.

Yet, while he's doing that, i found a play within eyesight of him.
Then walking around, i found 2 more plays.

Why would a multi-carding AP play off freeplay on v-bj when there are plays available?
link to original post



Sounds like me LoL.

I suppose you mean vulture plays like ultimate X?

When dealing with a ton of Freeplay my goal is to get finished soon as possible. I don't have time to search for AP opps nearby. The turnover at Freeplay VBJ is quick. Doing $50 per hand I can slam through a thousand dollars Freeplay in maybe three minutes. Probably less, I never really timed it.

You get back almost a hundred percent return and no concerns about triggering a jackpot on someone else's Freeplay.

I'm always looking for the lowest variance for a steady return.
For Whom the bus tolls; The bus tolls for thee
AxelWolf
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odiousgambit
April 14th, 2023 at 8:31:01 AM permalink
Quote: darkoz

Quote: 100xOdds



I saw a deep pocketed AP who plays $5k and $10k must-hits play off freeplay from multiple cards on v-bj.

Yet, while he's doing that, i found a play within eyesight of him.
Then walking around, i found 2 more plays.

Why would a multi-carding AP play off freeplay on v-bj when there are plays available?
link to original post



Sounds like me LoL.

I suppose you mean vulture plays like ultimate X?

When dealing with a ton of Freeplay my goal is to get finished soon as possible. I don't have time to search for AP opps nearby. The turnover at Freeplay VBJ is quick. Doing $50 per hand I can slam through a thousand dollars Freeplay in maybe three minutes. Probably less, I never really timed it.

You get back almost a hundred percent return and no concerns about triggering a jackpot on someone else's Freeplay.

I'm always looking for the lowest variance for a steady return.
link to original post

Not to mention, there is no chance of a hand pay on someome else's card.
♪♪Now you swear and kick and beg us That you're not a gamblin' man Then you find you're back in Vegas With a handle in your hand♪♪ Your black cards can make you money So you hide them when you're able In the land of casinos and money You must put them on the table♪♪ You go back Jack do it again roulette wheels turinin' 'round and 'round♪♪ You go back Jack do it again♪♪
odiousgambit
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April 14th, 2023 at 9:59:06 AM permalink
I think it can be shown that unless you are going to quit gambling that day forward, it's better to go for lowest HE than lowest variance

however, for the reasons given, you might not. Plus, I can't be too judgemental, period, when going for lowest variance when doing this [within bounds]. It is one thing to take risks on AP when there is no guarantee and you can easily lose money, and quite another to look at any freeplay and say "I'll take risks with this too"
the next time Dame Fortune toys with your heart, your soul and your wallet, raise your glass and praise her thus: “Thanks for nothing, you cold-hearted, evil, damnable, nefarious, low-life, malicious monster from Hell!”   She is, after all, stone deaf. ... Arnold Snyder
billryan
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April 14th, 2023 at 10:25:13 AM permalink
Quote: odiousgambit

I think it can be shown that unless you are going to quit gambling that day forward, it's better to go for lowest HE than lowest variance

however, for the reasons given, you might not. Plus, I can't be too judgemental, period, when going for lowest variance when doing this [within bounds]. It is one thing to take risks on AP when there is no guarantee and you can easily lose money, and quite another to look at any freeplay and say "I'll take risks with this too"
link to original post



What's the house edge when a push converts your bet from free play to cash?
For every $100 bet, a win pays $200, a tie pays $100 and a loss costs $100.

The house edge for BJ changes when you use free play. Ties are very valuable.
The difference between fiction and reality is that fiction is supposed to make sense.
Dieter
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April 14th, 2023 at 10:33:52 AM permalink
billryan, I think "house edge" is the wrong term there.

You're playing a freeroll*, so you can't lose. In my book, that makes the house edge 0.

RTP & variance should be the considerations.


I am blithely overlooking the setups where the initial bet is covered by freeplay, but split or double bets are not. You can lose those. If you hit this configuration and it bothers you, go to video poker.
May the cards fall in your favor.
billryan
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April 14th, 2023 at 10:54:06 AM permalink
I'm not sure what the proper term is, but 100 hands played with freeplay will result in a player having more money than if he played the exact hands with cash. I think that decreases the house edge, but not really concerned if the terminology is correct.
The difference between fiction and reality is that fiction is supposed to make sense.
Dieter
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April 14th, 2023 at 11:28:31 AM permalink
Fairly said.

I don't think freeplay changes the math of the game.
I do think freeplay introduces some 'creative accounting' into the scorekeeping.
May the cards fall in your favor.
100xOdds
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April 14th, 2023 at 11:35:35 AM permalink
Quote: darkoz

Sounds like me LoL.

I suppose you mean vulture plays like ultimate X?

When dealing with a ton of Freeplay my goal is to get finished soon as possible. I don't have time to search for AP opps nearby. The turnover at Freeplay VBJ is quick. Doing $50 per hand I can slam through a thousand dollars Freeplay in maybe three minutes. Probably less, I never really timed it.

You get back almost a hundred percent return and no concerns about triggering a jackpot on someone else's Freeplay.

I'm always looking for the lowest variance for a steady return.
link to original post

Interesting.. so if his gig is just high $ plays (like $5k and $10k must hits) then converting freeplay via v-bj is the better choice if no high $ plays were found.

Live off the $ from the converted freeplay till a high $ play is available.
And since he's running 5 figure coin-in on these cards when a play is found, the freeplay amount will keep coming for months even if no additional play.
Craps is paradise (Pair of dice). Lets hear it for the SpeedCount Mathletes :)
darkoz
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April 14th, 2023 at 11:36:21 AM permalink
Quote: Dieter

Fairly said.

I don't think freeplay changes the math of the game.
I do think freeplay introduces some 'creative accounting' into the scorekeeping.
link to original post



My girlfriend often uses Freeplay even without a players card in the machine

(She asks me to give her $100 and win lose or draw she keeps the results)
For Whom the bus tolls; The bus tolls for thee
100xOdds
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April 14th, 2023 at 11:43:21 AM permalink
Quote: darkoz

Quote: Dieter

Fairly said.

I don't think freeplay changes the math of the game.
I do think freeplay introduces some 'creative accounting' into the scorekeeping.
link to original post



My girlfriend often uses Freeplay even without a players card in the machine

(She asks me to give her $100 and win lose or draw she keeps the results)
link to original post

There's a saying:
Pay for a woman's food + alcohol but never her gambling...

Only so much food/alcohol she can consume in 1 sitting.
but paying for her Gambling can be a slippery slope
Craps is paradise (Pair of dice). Lets hear it for the SpeedCount Mathletes :)
darkoz
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April 14th, 2023 at 1:11:23 PM permalink
Quote: 100xOdds

Quote: darkoz

Quote: Dieter

Fairly said.

I don't think freeplay changes the math of the game.
I do think freeplay introduces some 'creative accounting' into the scorekeeping.
link to original post



My girlfriend often uses Freeplay even without a players card in the machine

(She asks me to give her $100 and win lose or draw she keeps the results)
link to original post

There's a saying:
Pay for a woman's food + alcohol but never her gambling...

Only so much food/alcohol she can consume in 1 sitting.
but paying for her Gambling can be a slippery slope
link to original post



Unfortunately my girlfriend who is alcoholic (and upfront about it) is definitely someone who can consume much more in cost of liquor than she loses in gambling.

She's actually pretty frugal with the gambling. She may ask for $100 to go hit slots but if she loses it then she's done for the trip

In fact her next request will be $100 for a bottle. To celebrate if she won. To drink her sorrows away if she lost. And if she broke even (which is still a win for her since it's my money) well then it's five o'clock somewhere in the world.
For Whom the bus tolls; The bus tolls for thee
AxelWolf
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April 14th, 2023 at 2:52:38 PM permalink
Quote: billryan


The house edge for BJ changes when you use free play. Ties are very valuable.
link to original post

I'm not sure what you mean here.(?) The hold is the hold regardless of what machine you play free play on. Playing $5 a hand on VP or $5 a hand on VB will result in the same number of hands needed to complete your free play. Assuming the same RTP on both, variance is the only thing that is affected from the ties.

One might double down or split slightly more often when using free play because it means having to play fewer hands into a negative game.

Technically, to maximize the value of your free play you should play your free play on whatever machine has the highest return to the player. Video BJ normally isn't the best value since it usually pays even money on Blackjack so you're giving up about 3%. Yes, I know sometimes you can find better-paying BJ machines that accept FP, but normally that's not the case. And if you do find a good machine, so have others, and guess what that means? You got it, everybody and their brother is playing their free play on that machine, and that's not a good idea for multiple reasons.


However, for advantage players, there are various other good reasons why playing free play on bad pay Video Blackjack is the way to go, it's just the CODB.
♪♪Now you swear and kick and beg us That you're not a gamblin' man Then you find you're back in Vegas With a handle in your hand♪♪ Your black cards can make you money So you hide them when you're able In the land of casinos and money You must put them on the table♪♪ You go back Jack do it again roulette wheels turinin' 'round and 'round♪♪ You go back Jack do it again♪♪
billryan
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April 14th, 2023 at 3:03:50 PM permalink
Quote: AxelWolf

Quote: billryan


The house edge for BJ changes when you use free play. Ties are very valuable.



If I put $100 bill in a VBJ machine , bet $10 and push, I have $100. If I put $100 free play voucher in and push, what do I have?

Same conditions, only I push ten times in a row. With cash, I'm even with my original $100. With free play, I've converted my $100 in free play to $100 in cash. Same hands, same ten pushes in a row but one way I'm still even and the other I've converted freeplay into cash.

The difference between fiction and reality is that fiction is supposed to make sense.
ChumpChange
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April 14th, 2023 at 3:06:17 PM permalink
It's easy to be down 15% to 20% on 100 to 200 hands of Blackjack. The HA isn't the problem, it's the variance and the bad shoes.
But if playing thousands of hands, the HA becomes more of a problem.
I only played VBJ because I can't afford $25 tables, and beginner's luck may pay off, but it will turn hard against me on round two.

For Freeplay, if 7.5% of my Blackjack hands are tied, that adds up on the credits won meter as a push. I spent the money and got it back, like getting a Jacks or Better pair on video poker is a push.

If I played 200 hands at $25 each, or $5K total bet:
with a 0.5% HA at the tables, that'd be a $25 expected loss, or 1 unit;
with a 3% HA on the machine, that'd be a $150 expected loss, or 6 units;
with a 15% actual loss, that'd be a $750 loss, or 30 units;
and with a 20% actual loss, that'd be a $1,000 loss, or 40 units.
Last edited by: ChumpChange on Apr 14, 2023
Dieter
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April 14th, 2023 at 3:13:48 PM permalink
I think the confusion is considering only what is happening with the cashable credit meter, and not the (freeplay credit meter + cashable credit meter).

Yes, you're shuffling credits around in a useful way, but it's not changing the RTP.

It's kind of like getting cash back with a retail purchase.
Sure, there's now more money in your wallet, but there's also less in the bank account. You didn't get a free $20 with your Zagnut bar.
May the cards fall in your favor.
darkoz
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April 14th, 2023 at 3:13:56 PM permalink
Quote: billryan





If I put $100 bill in a VBJ machine , bet $10 and push, I have $100. If I put $100 free play voucher in and push, what do I have?

Same conditions, only I push ten times in a row. With cash, I'm even with my original $100. With free play, I've converted my $100 in free play to $100 in cash. Same hands, same ten pushes in a row but one way I'm still even and the other I've converted freeplay into cash.
link to original post



That's the same at any game.

If I put $100 Freeplay into a slot machine and take ten $10 spins and each time I win $10 I have converted $100 Freeplay into $100 cash

If I place $100 cash in and do the same ten spins what do I have? I broke even.
For Whom the bus tolls; The bus tolls for thee
billryan
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April 14th, 2023 at 3:30:08 PM permalink
Quote: darkoz

Quote: billryan





If I put $100 bill in a VBJ machine , bet $10 and push, I have $100. If I put $100 free play voucher in and push, what do I have?

Same conditions, only I push ten times in a row. With cash, I'm even with my original $100. With free play, I've converted my $100 in free play to $100 in cash. Same hands, same ten pushes in a row but one way I'm still even and the other I've converted freeplay into cash.
link to original post



That's the same at any game.

If I put $100 Freeplay into a slot machine and take ten $10 spins and each time I win $10 I have converted $100 Freeplay into $100
If I place $100 cash in and do the same ten spins what do I have? I broke even.
link to original post[/

Okay. If you say so.
The difference between fiction and reality is that fiction is supposed to make sense.
AxelWolf
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April 14th, 2023 at 5:08:03 PM permalink
Quote: billryan

Quote: AxelWolf

Quote: billryan


The house edge for BJ changes when you use free play. Ties are very valuable.



If I put $100 bill in a VBJ machine , bet $10 and push, I have $100. If I put $100 free play voucher in and push, what do I have?

Same conditions, only I push ten times in a row. With cash, I'm even with my original $100. With free play, I've converted my $100 in free play to $100 in cash. Same hands, same ten pushes in a row but one way I'm still even and the other I've converted freeplay into cash.
link to original post

I'm still not sure what you are getting at, its mind-boggling.

If they send you $100 in free play it's the same as if they sent you a $100 Tito that you are required to tip the cashier when redeeming .5% -3% on, depending on how hot the cashier is, the choice is yours.

Once you load your free play onto the machine it's basically the same as cash minus the RTP because of the fact that you can't cash it out until it's rolled over one time.

What's the value of a $100 Tito ticket knowing you'll pay $100 coin in on a -3% game?
How much is a $100 Visa gift card worth with a 3% usage fee?
How much is 100 in free play worth on a -3% video blackjack machine worth?
How much is 100 in free play worth on a -3% video poker machine worth?


If the answer is $97(or the same for all 4), how can whatever you're saying be true? If you have a different answer please explain how.

If you still insist "The house edge for BJ changes when you use free play." The same must go for all games, not just blackjack. Other than variance I can't comprehend why ties are valuable. If that's the case, wouldn't playing red and black on a roulette machine where you "tie" more often be more valuable? I think not.
♪♪Now you swear and kick and beg us That you're not a gamblin' man Then you find you're back in Vegas With a handle in your hand♪♪ Your black cards can make you money So you hide them when you're able In the land of casinos and money You must put them on the table♪♪ You go back Jack do it again roulette wheels turinin' 'round and 'round♪♪ You go back Jack do it again♪♪
AxelWolf
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April 14th, 2023 at 5:19:01 PM permalink
Quote: billryan

Quote: darkoz

Quote: billryan





If I put $100 bill in a VBJ machine , bet $10 and push, I have $100. If I put $100 free play voucher in and push, what do I have?

Same conditions, only I push ten times in a row. With cash, I'm even with my original $100. With free play, I've converted my $100 in free play to $100 in cash. Same hands, same ten pushes in a row but one way I'm still even and the other I've converted freeplay into cash.
link to original post



That's the same at any game.

If I put $100 Freeplay into a slot machine and take ten $10 spins and each time I win $10 I have converted $100 Freeplay into $100
If I place $100 cash in and do the same ten spins what do I have? I broke even.
link to original post[/

Okay. If you say so.
link to original post

Of course he says so, free play is basically the same as cash -the Vig. There's no difference between that $100 bill at home and the $103.9 in free play you have sitting on the -3% VBJ machine.
♪♪Now you swear and kick and beg us That you're not a gamblin' man Then you find you're back in Vegas With a handle in your hand♪♪ Your black cards can make you money So you hide them when you're able In the land of casinos and money You must put them on the table♪♪ You go back Jack do it again roulette wheels turinin' 'round and 'round♪♪ You go back Jack do it again♪♪
rainman
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April 14th, 2023 at 6:05:46 PM permalink
Sometimes you just give up a little to just get it done and VBJ is a good choice for convenience & time constraints.
Mental
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April 15th, 2023 at 9:52:40 AM permalink
For the majority of online casinos, play through requirements (PTR) have different contribution rates. For example, on DK contribution rates are listed as 100% (Slots, Lottery, Keno, Virtual Sports); 20% (Blackjack, Other Table Games, & Select Slots) and 10% (Live Dealer Games, Video Poker, Baccarat, Roulette). For example: a $10 bet on a slot game listed at 100% will count as a $10 bet towards meeting the wagering requirements. A $10 bet on a game listed at 20% will count as a $2 bet towards meeting the wagering requirements.

Blackjack has only a 10% contribution rate at many online casinos. If you have a choice between BJ at 10% and slots at 100%, you have to be daft to use BJ for PTR. On DK, you can play Rocket or Digits with almost no variance (although I don't much care about variance on such a small amount of coin in).

I have played Rocket at $1000 a spin to win $10 for PTR. The variance is 0.04.

I normally just take the highest EV and let the chips fall where they may.
This forum is more enjoyable after I learned how to use the 'Block this user' button.
rainman
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April 15th, 2023 at 10:33:40 AM permalink
Quote: Mental

For the majority of online casinos, play through requirements (PTR) have different contribution rates. For example, on DK contribution rates are listed as 100% (Slots, Lottery, Keno, Virtual Sports); 20% (Blackjack, Other Table Games, & Select Slots) and 10% (Live Dealer Games, Video Poker, Baccarat, Roulette). For example: a $10 bet on a slot game listed at 100% will count as a $10 bet towards meeting the wagering requirements. A $10 bet on a game listed at 20% will count as a $2 bet towards meeting the wagering requirements.

Blackjack has only a 10% contribution rate at many online casinos. If you have a choice between BJ at 10% and slots at 100%, you have to be daft to use BJ for PTR. On DK, you can play Rocket or Digits with almost no variance (although I don't much care about variance on such a small amount of coin in).

I have played Rocket at $1000 a spin to win $10 for PTR. The variance is 0.04.

I normally just take the highest EV and let the chips fall where they may.
link to original post




The OP was speaking of seeing an AP run free play through VBJ at A BR casino.
Mental
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April 15th, 2023 at 10:58:00 AM permalink
Quote: billryan

I'm not sure what the proper term is, but 100 hands played with freeplay will result in a player having more money than if he played the exact hands with cash. I think that decreases the house edge, but not really concerned if the terminology is correct.
link to original post

The proper term for how you are thinking about this is 'confusion'.

I has been decades since slot machines were played with cash. In modern casinos, you are always playing with credits. What is the difference if $100 in credits represents a Benjamin you stuffed into the bill acceptor or free slot play that you downloaded? The RTP is identical because no game is legally permitted to play differently based on the amount of credits or the source of the credits.
This forum is more enjoyable after I learned how to use the 'Block this user' button.
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