Casino caught stealing(value)
So here's how we put the casino up against it:Quote: TomGI am going to argue that this is illegal, coming at it from a totally different angle than the minimum return to the player. Each game has a help screen or game info. For Ultimate X, it says "A multiplier is awarded for a winning hand. That multiplier is assigned according to the multiplier table to the next hand played."
For a casino to erase the multipliers, so that they are not assigned to the next hand played, they are not following the rules they agreed to. The casino had no problem taking the money when the bet was made. ...
1) Go play full coin on 1 hand of UTX.
2) When you get a multiplier on the next hand, call over a slot tech.
3) Explain you're leaving, and you want the value of the multiplier back (i.e. your 5 extra coins you paid).
If they don't refund you your money from the extra coins you played, then clearly "it must stay on the machine" which means they also cannot wipe them off the machine.
This has been going on for YEARS btw. We had a guy at a casino that would play in high limit and just bounce between UltX games and leave multipliers on the entire machine, across all games, in high limit... yeah, he was awesome. Anyways, YEARS ago we noticed he'd leave, and if we ever got to the machine (busy with other things) more than 5-10 minutes after he left the machine wouldn't have 1 multiplier on it... not even a PLAYED multiplier showing someone else got to it first. The machine was reset to factory default with no multipliers on the machine, on any game or denomination. I was convinced then that the casinos were wiping the multipliers, and I imagine they have been the entire time (probably about 5+ years now?).
I feel like the argument from casino employees "there's only a few bad apples" is garbage. In my opinion, and well versed repertoire of casinos, there are only a few good apples in the bunch. For the most part every casino is out to squeeze every legal, and illegal, dollar out of the customers as possible.
Quote: DRichI am pretty sure that the game does maintain the multipliers on a normal power off or reset. All slot machines also have the ability to wipe everything out but that usually requires a lotof work on the casinos part because they would have to re-setup the whole machine. I am skeptical that they have a built in way just to get rid of the multipliers,. I have machines with Ultimate X in my office and I don't see any option like that.
Good post. I don't have a good response, which is often the case with good posts.
I'm in a position where I have yet to be convinced this is easily possible from a technical point of view, but am not doubting Pink either. It would be nice to have this independently corroborated by another source.
Quote: WizardGood post. I don't have a good response, which is often the case with good posts.
I'm in a position where I have yet to be convinced this is easily possible from a technical point of view, but am not doubting Pink either. It would be nice to have this independently corroborated by another source.
I am not ruling it out either. My understanding is that Pink believes it was reset using a card. That would require a G2S (Game to System) protocol message to accomplish this. If I was aware of the casino or player tracking system being used I could do some more due dilligence,
Quote: SOOPOOI was with Pink and Wizard when they tried to duplicate the event. In summary, Wizard played a high limit game. Intentionally left multipliers on the machine. Pink and Wizard would watch to see if the slot attendant would wipe off the multipliers. During this one time event it did not happen. The initial plan was to wait 16 minutes, but we did not do so, because Pink noticed that the slot attendant who she saw erasing them earlier was not on duty.
So to me, at this point, if she thinks it is a single slot attendant doing this, as opposed to an institutional mandate from the casino, it is a much smaller story. Pink mentioned she actually has not seen this attendant for a while, and is wondering if he has been fired.
I am going to post a few more thoughts about this in the NY AP move thread.
This is the long and short of it. Game makers have come up with ways to keep players in their seats. First progressives, then must pays, ultimate x where there is an almost constant incentive to see one more hand and now games where equity is built up with every spin. All designed to keep players in their seats because the longer one plays the longer one loses. And that's just fine. But now they have created a way for advantage players to make money. And truly it should not matter to casinos who wins the money as long as cheating was not involved. But casinos have a huge ego problem when it comes to advantage players. No one beats us! But someone will if the bet is paid for and sits there long enough someone WILL win that money. It doesn't cost them a dime. What costs them money is when the money walks out the door never to return. Which truly is not what happens. Ninety percent of the time advantage players are just sick gamblers looking for a way to fund their gambling. You all can disagree all you like but it is true. I know ninety percent of them There are a few exceptions. But on the whole how would one be exposed to advantage plays without being a gambler in the first place? Just saying. Anyhow, casinos want games that keep people in their seats but they want money to stay in the casino always. And truly as long as someone is not cheating they should be permitted to look at a game. To check the pay table and decide how much they want to bet with THEIR OWN MONEY. And there should be some penalty to casinos for running such people off. If you have half a brain GET OUT. This is their message. I'm sure there is a legal defense against this but I'm not sure what it is. Lol. The casino claims this all for entertainment purposes. If a mistake costs you money oh well. We are all just having fun. But if you get over paid one dollar all hell breaks lose.
A service was paid for (a chance to win multipliers for the next hand)
The game designers did not make it a service that must be played by the purchaser but made it more like a must-hit that is a communal purchase.
Like must-hits if people want to play until it hits fine. Or they can stop and someone else can take over
To erase the communal players paid services is theft. It's the keeping of the wager without the payout(which was the multipliers
The bonus machines of the past were easily visible to the players. You could see the play from ten feet away. Ultimate x used to be like that as well. The machine would put the best play on the screen. Then they would just run through each of the games. I think it's been about five years since they changed it to hiding the plays. Some games even force you to put money I to then to check them.
The newest bonus machines are easily visible to the player without sitting down on the game. I guess someone realized the problem. But my guess is the casino was the one who wanted the multipliers hidden. I believe the game makers could not possibly be that stupid. It would absolutely be to the casinos advantage for the screens to flash the best plays for all to see. That's why in CASINO Ace tells the slot supervisor to put the progressives in the front where people can see them.
Quote: PinkI've never experienced that. Most people are involved with their own game. However, I have been asked what I was looking for. I just tell them. Most people reply oh wow that's smart.
The bonus machines of the past were easily visible to the players. You could see the play from ten feet away. Ultimate x used to be like that as well. The machine would put the best play on the screen. Then they would just run through each of the games. I think it's been about five years since they changed it to hiding the plays. Some games even force you to put money I to then to check them.
The newest bonus machines are easily visible to the player without sitting down on the game. I guess someone realized the problem. But my guess is the casino was the one who wanted the multipliers hidden. I believe the game makers could not possibly be that stupid. It would absolutely be to the casinos advantage for the screens to flash the best plays for all to see. That's why in CASINO Ace tells the slot supervisor to put the progressives in the front where people can see them.
I am glad I re-read this. On my first read, which was very poor on my part, I thought you were arguing that hiding was the last iteration. I was ready to argue. Damn drunk reading comprehension.
Seeing the "best" plays on old machines is beyond my time though. I didn't start more seriously until late 2013.
