Obamacare unconstitutional (no joke)
https://www.google.com/amp/s/www.bloomberg.com/amp/news/articles/2018-12-15/obamacare-core-provisions-ruled-unconstitutional-by-judge
Even if it helped some people, a scary precedent.
The first part seems plausible. I think the second part may be a bit of a stretch.
ZCore13
Quote: RigondeauxI don't really know about the Constitution. However, it always seemed insane that the government could force you to buy junk from corpations that spread around enough bribes.
Even if it helped some people, a scary precedent.
That argument should also be made agains social security insurance / annuity that everyone is forced to buy as well. I wonder how it would go over if Trump tried to end that tax/welfare
And no one was ever forced to buy Obamacare. I never did. And the only penalty was that the government gave me complimentary health insurance
Quote: Zcore13Good. This should have been a priority case and decided years ago. I refused for about 18 months to participate, even though I was "required" to overpay and help cover everyone that got it for free or next to nothing.
ZCore13
Do you have life insurance? Do you have auto insurance?
oQuote: TomGThat argument should also be made agains social security insurance / annuity that everyone is forced to buy as well. I wonder how it would go over if Trump tried to end that tax/welfare
And no one was ever forced to buy Obamacare. I never did. And the only penalty was that the government gave me complimentary health insurance
Unless I misunderstand things, no CEOs are buying yachts with the money we put into social security and then having the Clintons and Bushes over to eat babies.
Setting aside the fact that they raid the fund and all that, it's more like a forced savings than forcing you to buy a (garbage) product from a private company making a profit. You do eventually get the money back.
I don't really mind forcing people to save for retirement because the alternatives are 1) millions of old people who didn't save dying in the streets. 2) Others have to pay for their retirements.
Quote: rsactuaryDo you have life insurance? Do you have auto insurance?
Am I forced to purchase life insurance if I don't want to? Am I forced to cover my own car with auto insurance if I don't want to? Bad arguement.
ZCore13
money it stole for this violation of rights?
Quote: Zcore13Am I forced to purchase life insurance if I don't want to? Am I forced to cover my own car with auto insurance if I don't want to? Bad arguement.
ZCore13
If you don't like being forced to carry health insurance, I assume you had enough funds to cover any health mishap no matter how expensive while you did that?
Or were planning to sponge off society if you got super sick or in a bad accident?
Fact is, if you don't carry health insurance, you're telling me you're just a potential thief. How is that any better than blaming the government for forcing you to pay for it?
Quote: rxwineIf you don't like being forced to carry health insurance, I assume you had enough funds to cover any health mishap no matter how expensive while you did that?
Or were planning to sponge off society if you got super sick or in a bad accident?
Fact is, if you don't carry health insurance, you're telling me you're just a potential thief. How is that any better than blaming the government for forcing you to pay for it?
Dangerous precedent indeed.
Government force over-regulates a certain industry so much so that it becomes unaffordable. People decide we need a little bit more government force to fix the problem.
...And we think the North Koreans are brainwaRshed.
Quote: rxwineIf you don't like being forced to carry health insurance, I assume you had enough funds to cover any health mishap no matter how expensive while you did that?
Or were planning to sponge off society if you got super sick or in a bad accident?
Fact is, if you don't carry health insurance, you're telling me you're just a potential thief. How is that any better than blaming the government for forcing you to pay for it?
I had plenty of money to cover just about any health issue. It would have have had to go well into 6 figures to be a problem. I don't ask for or need money from anyone. Try again.
ZCore13
Quote: Zcore13I had plenty of money to cover just about any health issue. It would have have had to go well into 6 figures to be a problem. I don't ask for or need money from anyone. Try again.
ZCore13
6 figures is not that hard to achieve with a serious illness.
100,000
I spent 10k on a ambulance ride and one overnight stay in the Cardiac care unit.
My Mom passed away after emergency surgery failed hours after being taken to the hospital. Her final hospital bill, which was for about eight hours, came to almost $161,000. The stay before that was almost two weeks, including time in intensive care, and was over $223,000. Thanks to Tri Care For Life, her out of pocket in both cases was nothing. Just a point of information here- my family did have to pay to remove her body. Hospitalization evidently dies with the person.Quote: Zcore13I had plenty of money to cover just about any health issue. It would have have had to go well into 6 figures to be a problem. I don't ask for or need money from anyone. Try again.
ZCore13
I can almost guarantee you that you will experience a medical episode that will run you six figures. What you are really gambling is that such an event doesn't happen until you hit 65 and are eligible for Medicare. That's not a bet I would make, but your choice.
Quote: TomGThat argument should also be made agains social security insurance / annuity that everyone is forced to buy as well. I wonder how it would go over if Trump tried to end that tax/welfare
And no one was ever forced to buy Obamacare. I never did. And the only penalty was that the government gave me complimentary health insurance
Easy to like something when you are on the receiving end of teet getting it for free. Explains a lot actually.
Plus, look at places like Europe and Canada....do we REALLY want to follow their lead? Lolol that was rhetorical.
Quote: billryanMy Mom passed away after emergency surgery failed hours after being taken to the hospital. Her final hospital bill, which was for about eight hours, came to almost $161,000. The stay before that was almost two weeks, including time in intensive care, and was over $223,000. Thanks to Tri Care For Life, her out of pocket in both cases was nothing. Just a point of information here- my family did have to pay to remove her body. Hospitalization evidently dies with the person.
I can almost guarantee you that you will experience a medical episode that will run you six figures. What you are really gambling is that such an event doesn't happen until you hit 65 and are eligible for Medicare. That's not a bet I would make, but your choice.
I said I went a year and a half without coverage. I didn't say I don't have coverage now. I just refused to pay the ridiculous $440 a month for a high deductible plan. I knew I would be getting health insurance again. I took a Gamble knowing that I had money to cover anything but the worst case scenario..
ZCore13
Gotta love those activist Texas judges!
Quote: ams288Hasn’t the Supreme Court upheld the constitutionality of the ACA twice now?
Gotta love those activist Texas judges!
Yeah, they have. I don't guess this decision will stand.
Nobody has a choice on whether to contribute to FICA/Medicare, either employee or employer. Nor a choice on whether to pay federal income tax. I don't see this being significantly different, and those are two strong precedents.
Quote: RSThe government's job shouldn't be to provide or force health care/insurance to its citizens. It's not something that requires government intervention, so government should stay the **** out of it.
Plus, look at places like Europe and Canada....do we REALLY want to follow their lead? Lolol that was rhetorical.
Everyone I've known from another country thinks our system is insane. They have a point in that we pay twice what they do and get half as much care in return.
Would be interesting to hear from the few non-American posters if they'd want to switch to healthcare being sold by corps.
Quote: billryanDoes Max pay for his own health care or does he get it through his employer?
I used to get it thru my employer as part of my compensation package Since resigning to pursue AP full time, I have been COBRA'ing. There is a back story to the COBRA before people say that's not possible. The ACC is a joke.
Here's real life numbers for a 50 year old non smoker.
Employer group plan with $1500 deductible max out of pocket $483.00 month.
Obviously COBRA same.
Same equivalent plan ACA without tax credits for low income. $7000 deductible max out of pocket $562.00 month.
Same plan with poverty level income. $0 deductible max out of pocket.
, $63.00 month
6 years ago when I sold my business and moved to Vegas I was paying $280.00 a month for a PPO not an HMO with $2000 max out of pocket.
Basically unless you are low income the ACA let's you pay twice as much as you should have to and if you need to use it you can pay for it again..Guess someone has to pay for all the freeloading irresponsible people and/or cheats.
We will soon be like a lot of European countries where there citizens dodge and cheat obligations to their government as much as possible.
Quote: Rigondeaux
I don't really mind forcing people to save for retirement because the alternatives are 1) millions of old people who didn't save dying in the streets. 2) Others have to pay for their retirements.
So it was never really about how wrong it is for the government to figure out a way to take our money, and entirely about what the money was being spent on
Quote: MaxPenEasy to like something when you are on the receiving end of teet getting it for free. Explains a lot actually.
I never said I liked it. I would much prefer free market health care. I just can’t understand why Obamacare is so much different than any other government tax as so many people try to insist
Well, this Brit would not swap our NHS (or indeed our generally socialist welfare system) for the US one.Quote: RigondeauxEveryone I've known from another country thinks our system is insane. They have a point in that we pay twice what they do and get half as much care in return.
Would be interesting to hear from the few non-American posters if they'd want to switch to healthcare being sold by corps.
To be clear, we Brits get all *necessary healthcare at no cost, except for the National Health insurance contribution (a tax on income)
*Necessary includes basic dental treatment, except those with income will normally pay up to a fixed amount of a few hundred pounds. Nobody here has to worry about how they are going to pay hospital fees if they contract an illness or suffer an injury or need expensive drugs for life. From age 60 ( and for those on means tested benefits), all prescription drugs are at no charge at the pharmacy.
We also have the option of paying to reduce our waiting time for treatment where there is a waiting list or where we just want to get better treatment. Even private health care costs are really very low compared about what I read about for the US. E.g. a friend had private surgery on a spine problem and it cost less than £5,000 in total.
While we are in Europe, we have reciprocal arrangements such that our medical costs are covered throughout Europe.
Our system does often creak under the pressure, but no-one I know begrudges the NI cost and no-one I know would switch to the US model.
Other welfare costs such as unemployment benefits are far more means tested than they used to be, but we do pretty well fighting extreme poverty and homelessness. Of course, we could do better.
Quote: MaxPenWe will soon be like a lot of European countries where there citizens dodge and cheat obligations to their government as much as possible.
It's funny you should say that. As a European at the moment, I see an awful lot of tax avoidance and cheating in some EU countries. Italy, Spain and France are particulary bad for grey economy tax dodging. But we have VAT on consumption and high tax on Petrol and Diesel, and that goes a long way to making tax unavoidable.
The VAT system encourages some small traders to go 'legit' because they get to offset some tax in exchange for effectively running the system. Tax cheats find it harder and harder to spend their CASH as we are developing 'Proceeds of Crime', benefit fraud and anti money laundering legislation. It's pretty effective in squishing freeloaders and cheats. There will always be poor people who are prepared to live in significant poverty rather than working, but that's not such a popular life choice here. A price we generally accept.
I personally had a lot of fun trying to persuade a UK online casino that I was not money laundering when my total wagering went above £2k!!!
More and more, AML laws make spending 'Cash in hand' untaxed income tricky. Try paying cash for a new car in the UK and you'd probably have to show where your funds came from. Certainly so if buying property.
I have what is known as an HMO where I have a $3000 annual deductible and then I am responsible for 20% of the cost of medical procedures. I pay about 10% of my income for that insurance.
I recently had gallbladder surgery that cost about $45,000. my cost ended up being about $11,000.
Quote: ams288Hasn’t the Supreme Court upheld the constitutionality of the ACA twice now?
Gotta love those activist Texas judges!
"When the Supreme Court upheld the mandate as constitutional in 2012, it was based on Congress’s taxing power. Congress, the court said, could legally impose a tax penalty on people who do not have health insurance.
But in the new case, the 20 plaintiff states, led by Texas, argued that with the penalty zeroed out, the individual mandate had become unconstitutional — and that the rest of the law could not be severed from it."
https://www.nytimes.com/2018/12/14/health/obamacare-unconstitutional-texas-judge.html
Yes, it was previously ruled constitutional. The removal of the penalty changed things. This will be appealed, of course, and it may be overturned either on the taxing issue or on severability of that portion from the rest of the law. This is a new ruling based on the law as it was changed. It will go all the way to Johnny and The Supremes. Meanwhile, the law seems to be staying in place through that process.
Yet, the Republicans keep trying to destroy it.
They had 2 years to think of something better (which really shouldn’t be that hard) and they came up with absolutely nothing.
So, we will have to wait until Dems get all 3 branches (could be a long time for that) to get something passed.
Come to think of it, when was the last time popular legislation was passed under republican leadership?
Americans with Disabilities Act?
I did have to remind myself with a bit of googling. For most employed people, there are 'Class 1' contributions on eaarnings between 113 and 866 per week. That's 13% from the employer and 2% from the employee.Quote: DRichOnceDear, do you know what the health contribution percentage is based on income?
I have what is known as an HMO where I have a $3000 annual deductible and then I am responsible for 20% of the cost of medical procedures. I pay about 10% of my income for that insurance.
I recently had gallbladder surgery that cost about $45,000. my cost ended up being about $11,000.
https://www.taxation.co.uk/Articles/2016/12/13/335776/national-insurance-contribution-rates-2017-18
As a small business employer, I can tell you that there are significant reductions for very small businesses and they are not well publicised (E.g. No employer contributions in the case of my payroll)
But NI covers far more than health. It chips in to all other aspects of our 'Welfare state'
Wikipedea offers a bit of a breakdown, from which you can determine the healthcare part.
https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/National_Insurance#Class_1
The line between 'Income tax' and NI is very grey indeed. I understand that most of NI goes towards paying the state pension (that's not state as you might use it)
Quote: DRichOnceDear, do you know what the health contribution percentage is based on income?
I have what is known as an HMO where I have a $3000 annual deductible and then I am responsible for 20% of the cost of medical procedures. I pay about 10% of my income for that insurance.
I recently had gallbladder surgery that cost about $45,000. my cost ended up being about $11,000.
For comparison The cost of gall bladder removal if 'going private' in the UK is about £6400 (about $7800 ) going NHS for such treatment might get hit by a modest waiting list, but would be free at the point of delivery.
https://www.bmihealthcare.co.uk/treatments/general-surgery/cholecystectomy-laparoscopic
Even a heart transplant and all after care, would be free at the point of delivery if a donor could be found.
Quote: FinsRule
So, we will have to wait until Dems get all 3 branches (could be a long time for that) to get something passed.
You are aware that SCOTUS is supposed to be a non-partisan branch of government, right?
You are aware that SCOTUS is just supposed to rule on constitutionality and not be activist or an advocate for anything, right?
Your position is the problem we have today. It is why we had borderline mentally-ill people shrieking and screaming at the last SCOTUS confirmation.
We probably need to get LESS passed. It is not the job of the government to be in the health insurance business.
Liberals think socialized medicine will mean that you just drop in to the doctor and get all the care you desire at little to no cost. They never see the dark side of what happens when government runs healthcare. The shortages. The wait times. And you still may be denied care!
A few posts above a Brit has stated that you can "pay extra to jump the line." Is that what you really want?
Either way, one good thing that may come out of this ruling is a call to rein in the ability of judges to stay a law. Liberals love it when an idea like keeping out muslims from extremist and enemy countries is overturned. They will be screaming when their precious law has been overturned in the same way, though. Just watch!
Quote: OnceDearWell, this Brit would not swap our NHS (or indeed our generally socialist welfare system) for the US one.
To be clear, we Brits get all *necessary healthcare at no cost, except for the National Health insurance contribution (a tax on income)
*Necessary includes basic dental treatment, except those with income will normally pay up to a fixed amount of a few hundred pounds. Nobody here has to worry about how they are going to pay hospital fees if they contract an illness or suffer an injury or need expensive drugs for life. From age 60 ( and for those on means tested benefits), all prescription drugs are at no charge at the pharmacy.
We also have the option of paying to reduce our waiting time for treatment where there is a waiting list or where we just want to get better treatment. Even private health care costs are really very low compared about what I read about for the US. E.g. a friend had private surgery on a spine problem and it cost less than £5,000 in total.
While we are in Europe, we have reciprocal arrangements such that our medical costs are covered throughout Europe.
Our system does often creak under the pressure, but no-one I know begrudges the NI cost and no-one I know would switch to the US model.
Other welfare costs such as unemployment benefits are far more means tested than they used to be, but we do pretty well fighting extreme poverty and homelessness. Of course, we could do better.
Yeah. The main thing here is, politicians and media just lie about health care constantly to keep their owners wealthy. However, pretty much anyone young enough to research the subject for themselves online favors a system something like yours, unless they are an anarchist or whatever. Actually, something like 70% of Americans favor medicaid for all, but our input into the political process is minimal.
As for what we pay, we pay twice what you do. And that's with a large portion of the population not recieving care. If it were "per capita for people who can actually see a doctor," it would be even worse.
Quote: AZDuffman
A few posts above a Brit has stated that you can "pay extra to jump the line." Is that what you really want?
Why not? I waited six weeks for a minor surgical treatment on the NHS and got it free. A family member has been given an NHS appointment in April 2019 for a very minor, non-urgent (cosmetic) operation and will be going private to get it done just after Christmas.
Necessary = free
Non urgent but necessary = free but wait a while.
Luxury or expedited = modest cost
Quote: RigondeauxActually, something like 70% of Americans favor medicaid for all, but our input into the political process is minimal.
Only when they think "the rich" will pay for it all. When you tell the bottom 47% they will have to start paying taxes to fund it all their attitude changes.
BTW: what does "large portion of the population not recieving care" mean? What percent is "large?" Can you please cite or at least explain?
Quote: ams288Hasn’t the Supreme Court upheld the constitutionality of the ACA twice now?
Gotta love those activist Texas judges!
Wondering if you love the 9th Circuit Court of Appeals 🤔
Quote: MaxPen*EXCERPT*We will soon be like a lot of European countries where there citizens dodge and cheat obligations to their government as much as possible.
Waiting for the US to impose a television licence
Quote: TomGSo it was never really about how wrong it is for the government to figure out a way to take our money, and entirely about what the money was being spent on
I'm not an anarchist, though I see the appeal. So what you described is how I feel about taxes. I don't mind taxes, but, like everyone, I wish it was spent more on stuff I agree with and less on stuff I disagree with.
What is particularly objectionable about Obamacare is being forced to buy a (again, crappy) product from a private corporation that has bribed my elected officials.
I've seen Robocop and so I know where that leads.
Quote: OnceDear*EXCERPT*Necessary includes basic dental treatment
When I think of high quality dental care I always think of the UK
(sorry, couldn't resist)
Quote: OnceDearWhy not? I waited six weeks for a minor surgical treatment on the NHS and got it free. A family member has been given an NHS appointment in April 2019 for a very minor, non-urgent (cosmetic) operation and will be going private to get it done just after Christmas.
Necessary = free
Non urgent but necessary = free but wait a while.
Luxury or expedited = modest cost
"Why not" is simple. Because in a short time you will end up de facto having to pay for everything or end up waiting months to over a year. Happens every time. Remember the old Soviet joke?
SOVIET DOCTOR: Good news, comrade, you just need minor surgery. Come back 4 years from tomorrow and we will fix you up!
SOVIET CITIZEN: Can we make it in the afternoon?
SOVIET DOCTOR: Comrade, it is in 4 years, what is the difference morning or afternoon?
SOVIET CITIZEN: Well, the telephone company is installing my new line in the morning.
What it comes down to is trusting government. You seem to trust your government. Most Americans do not trust government. At least the red-pill takers do not. We have seen what government has done and how it runs things. No thanks.
Quote: AZDuffmanOnly when they think "the rich" will pay for it all. When you tell the bottom 47% they will have to start paying taxes to fund it all their attitude changes.
BTW: what does "large portion of the population not recieving care" mean? What percent is "large?" Can you please cite or at least explain?
Refer to the graph I posted. Or, if you don't trust my selection, just google image search "health care costs per capita." Yes, you pay taxes, instead of funding a gazzillion dollar insurance industry. The end result is that medical costs are cut in half. You pay less and get more. That's why people want it.
This was also the first thing to catch my eye in a google search. A gallup poll says that 12.2% of Americans don't have insurance.
https://www.insurancejournal.com/news/national/2018/01/17/477331.htm
Of course, even a homeless person can go to an ER. But roughly 1/8 don't have full medical care. Heck, even if you ARE insured, seeking treatment is tedious and expensive. We paid over $400 a month and my ex's employer paid more than that. She visited a hospital with stomach pains that turned out to not be a big deal and we got a bill for $3,000. Healthy people in our 30s.
Other things not factored into our expenses: 1) millions of hours of unpaid labor, dealing with health insurance and picking plans, and open enrollment and savings plans etc.
2) The economic and social costs of people becoming bankrupt due to medical costs, the leading cause of bankrupsy in this country.
If you include those, our healthcare system might be 3x more expensive.
This is ALMOST an apolitical issue. There really is no rational discussion about which system is most effective if your goal is simply to give the cheapest, most effective care to as many people as possible. The only question is if the more effective system violates your political ideology for whatever reason.
Quote: AZDuffman"Why not" is simple. Because in a short time you will end up de facto having to pay for everything or end up waiting months to over a year. Happens every time. Remember the old Soviet joke?
SOVIET DOCTOR: Good news, comrade, you just need minor surgery. Come back 4 years from tomorrow and we will fix you up!
SOVIET CITIZEN: Can we make it in the afternoon?
SOVIET DOCTOR: Comrade, it is in 4 years, what is the difference morning or afternoon?
SOVIET CITIZEN: Well, the telephone company is installing my new line in the morning.
What it comes down to is trusting government. You seem to trust your government. Most Americans do not trust government. At least the red-pill takers do not. We have seen what government has done and how it runs things. No thanks.
In America, we write “in god we trust” on our money. In Soviet Russia, we have no money!
Quote: Rigondeaux
This was also the first thing to catch my eye in a google search. A gallup poll says that 12.2% of Americans don't have insurance.
So what?
For many people, health insurance is a bad deal. If you are male 20-30 it is really not needed. If you are female of the same age same thing unless you plan to have kids.
Quote:Of course, even a homeless person can go to an ER. But roughly 1/8 don't have full medical care. Heck, even if you ARE insured, seeking treatment is tedious and expensive. We paid over $400 a month and my ex's employer paid more than that. She visited a hospital with stomach pains that turned out to not be a big deal and we got a bill for $3,000. Healthy people in our 30s.
And your example is part of why health care costs so much and costs more when people have more insurance. Had you known in advance the cost would be $3,000 you might have decided to tough it out a day or two. But when everything is covered, people take every test suggested since someone else is paying. John Stossell does a parody of this on YT showing what would happen if we all had "food insurance." Walks the meat section of a grocery and loads up with the best cuts, since he has "food insurance"
Quote:This is ALMOST an apolitical issue. There really is no rational discussion about which system is most effective if your goal is simply to give the cheapest, most effective care to as many people as possible. The only question is if the more effective system violates your political ideology for whatever reason.
It is a totally political issue. Liberals want government care for the control of the masses it brings. Do you really think Nancy Pelosi cares that you have good health care? Or Hillary Clinton?
Here is the bottom line on a health care system. Pick any 2 of the three you want:
1. GOOD
2. FAST
3. CHEAP
LOL. Yes that is an anachronism £150 per yaer to operate a tv receiving device.Quote: aceofspadesWaiting for the US to impose a television licence
Quote: OnceDearIt's funny you should say that. As a European at the moment, I see an awful lot of tax avoidance and cheating in some EU countries. Italy, Spain and France are particulary bad for grey economy tax dodging. But we have VAT on consumption and high tax on Petrol and Diesel, and that goes a long way to making tax unavoidable.
The VAT system encourages some small traders to go 'legit' because they get to offset some tax in exchange for effectively running the system. Tax cheats find it harder and harder to spend their CASH as we are developing 'Proceeds of Crime', benefit fraud and anti money laundering legislation. It's pretty effective in squishing freeloaders and cheats. There will always be poor people who are prepared to live in significant poverty rather than working, but that's not such a popular life choice here. A price we generally accept.
I personally had a lot of fun trying to persuade a UK online casino that I was not money laundering when my total wagering went above £2k!!!
More and more, AML laws make spending 'Cash in hand' untaxed income tricky. Try paying cash for a new car in the UK and you'd probably have to show where your funds came from. Certainly so if buying property.
I just got back from a little over 2 weeks in Italy. I would estimate 2/3 of the businesses, mostly mom and pop operations I dealt with were working a scheme to avoid the tax collector. I will write about some of the shenanigans when I get some sleep.
Quote: AZDuffman"Why not" is simple. Because in a short time you will end up de facto having to pay for everything or end up waiting months to over a year. Happens every time. Remember the old Soviet joke?
Short time? 75 years? So, we managed to have our NHS survive for about 75 years. We love it, we fight for it and it survives.
Should we aspire to just abandon it and go for a US equivalent?.
Yes, it might sneak up on us that we get massive cost or massive wait, but they ain't managed to do that yet.
Any Brit political party that showed a tendency to ban Private health treatment would get crushed. Any party that wanted to close down the NHS would also get crushed.. All our major parties run on maintaining the middle ground that we have at the moment because they know haw we treasure it.
I can believe that. Italy is one of the worst European countries where grey market and criminal enterprise are endemic.Quote: MaxPenI just got back from a little over 2 weeks in Italy. I would estimate 2/3 of the businesses, mostly mom and pop operations I dealt with were working a scheme to avoid the tax collector. I will write about some of the shenanigans when I get some sleep.
BT, my ex-employer, had an Italian division which was found to be cooking the books big-time. Nearly broke the whole Group.
Italy, Greece, Spain, Hungary and a few other countries are happy to contribute to EU laws but to hell with complying with them.
Quote: aceofspadesWaiting for the US to impose a television licence
Uhh
Didnt they force everyone to get digital signals and throw out all those rabbit ears a few years ago
Now if we could just get the Farm Bill with the work requirements passed.
Make Americans Accountable Again!
