Can we please have, dare i say, a "fantasy" board to discuss "rigged" games?
Quote: WatchMeWinWhat does 'beware, i work for the dark side... we have cookies' mean? You work for the casinos.. or want people to believe you work for casinos.
I see nothing.
I hear nothing.
I know nothing.
I am in Casino Management at a Las Vegas area property. If you don't get the "cookies" reference I can explain.
Quote: WatchMeWinIm sure it is written in the bylaws somewhere that the electronic craps games are considered similar to the class as slots and there is a certain payout allowed, therefore they can get away with altering the dice and payouts. That would make sense.
Any game or machine that uses cards or dice must be completely random in order to be legal in many jurisdictions. Nevada is one such jurisdiction.
The odds of any pair of numbers coming up on Bubble Craps is EXACTLY the same as on a live craps table. Same goes for Video Poker.
Quote: WatchMeWinLast month I visited the casino which had bubble craps a few years ago. I mentioned several times that I believed there were magnets or something moving the dice once they were already in landed position. Well , they dont have that game there anymore. Not sure why it isnt there but they removed it. Something must have happened for them to remove it.
They would have removed it if it wasn't making them any money.
Quote: TigerWuThey would have removed it if it wasn't making them any money.
Change the word 'any' to 'enough' and you have it correct. Space on the 'floor' needs to generate a certain amount for the casino, or else the casino will replace it with something else.
If WMW thinks it is because they were cheating, got caught, and then replaced it, I'd say that possibility is far less than 1%.
Quote: SOOPOOChange the word 'any' to 'enough' and you have it correct. Space on the 'floor' needs to generate a certain amount for the casino, or else the casino will replace it with something else.
If WMW thinks it is because they were cheating, got caught, and then replaced it, I'd say that possibility is far less than 1%.
I was told that they took it away because there were 'discrepancies with payouts among other things'. This is what I was told by management. That person may not have know what they were talking about, but since the Interlock games had problems with payouts, then it is possible that this machine was cheating people out of payouts too... and if they would cheat people out of payouts, it wouldn't be a far fetched notion to rig the game in other aspects. just sayin.
Quote: SOOPOOChange the word 'any' to 'enough' and you have it correct. Space on the 'floor' needs to generate a certain amount for the casino, or else the casino will replace it with something else.
If WMW thinks it is because they were cheating, got caught, and then replaced it, I'd say that possibility is far less than 1%.
This is why some carnival games stay around for years and others fizzle away in a few months. They have to justify the space that they occupy.
Quote: WatchMeWinI was told that they took it away because there were 'discrepancies with payouts among other things'. This is what I was told by management. That person may not have know what they were talking about, but since the Interlock games had problems with payouts, then it is possible that this machine was cheating people out of payouts too... and if they would cheat people out of payouts, it wouldn't be a far fetched notion to rig the game in other aspects. just sayin.
Yeah, because management walks around the casino and tells you things about their business.
ZCore13
Quote: Zcore13Yeah, because management walks around the casino and tells you things about their business.
ZCore13
Floor manager. Would you consider them management?
Quote: WatchMeWinFloor manager. Would you consider them management?
Floor Supervisor? Lead Slot tech? These aren't Management. They are equivalent to the Team Leader at Arby's.
ZCore13
Quote: Zcore13Floor Supervisor? Lead Slot tech? These aren't Management. They are equivalent to the Team Leader at Arby's.
ZCore13
You seem to know the business. What is your title at your casino?
Quote: WatchMeWinYou seem to know the business. What is your title at your casino?
I've been a dealer, floor supervisor, pit boss, table games shift manager and table games director. Currently, I'm a pit supervisor at the largest casino in AZ. It's a salary position, but I would not consider it management. I have no say in operational decisions.
ZCore13
Quote: Zcore13I've been a dealer, floor supervisor, pit boss, table games shift manager and table games director. Currently, I'm a pit supervisor at the largest casino in AZ. It's a salary position, but I would not consider it management. I have no say in operational decisions.
ZCore13
so this is something you would no nothing about if they took the game away from your floor?
Quote: WatchMeWinso this is something you would no nothing about if they took the game away from your floor?
Table games and slots have no connection or real interaction except for working at the same casino, so I would have zero knowledge of the true reason behind a game leaving. Rumors and made up stories from the slot employees would be the most likely source of information. You can take that as fact about as much as you should take mathematical advice from a dealer.
I was an acting slot director for 6 months at one time. The only people that knew the daily win numbers, current hold percentage, drop per day, etc, were me, the GM and other directors if we happen to be in a meeting and I was telling them about a new game I was bring in.
The lead slot tech would know what machine holds were set to, because they were the ones that set them to my choice of holds. Other than that info, they would not know why I made business decisions, although it's pretty obvious when nobody plays a machine. Al.ost all decisions come down to one thing, average win per day. That's really all that matters in slots.
ZCore13
Quote: Zcore13Table games and slots have no connection or real interaction except for working at the same casino, so I would have zero knowledge of the true reason behind a game leaving. Rumors and made up stories from the slot employees would be the most likely source of information. You can take that as fact about as much as you should take mathematical advice from a dealer.
I was an acting slot director for 6 months at one time. The only people that knew the daily win numbers, current hold percentage, drop per day, etc, were me, the GM and other directors if we happen to be in a meeting and I was telling them about a new game I was bring in.
The lead slot tech would know what machine holds were set to, because they were the ones that set them to my choice of holds. Other than that info, they would not know why I made business decisions, although it's pretty obvious when nobody plays a machine. Al.ost all decisions come down to one thing, average win per day. That's really all that matters in slots.
ZCore13
Gotchya... noted! Next time Im in Arizona, I'll pm you and come play at your casino. Arizona is one state I havent withdrawn from yet!
Quote: WatchMeWinGotchya... noted! Next time Im in Arizona, I'll pm you and come play at your casino. Arizona is one state I havent withdrawn from yet!
First drink is on the house. :)
ZCore13
Quote: Zcore13First drink is on the house. :)
ZCore13
I dont drink , but thank you! I love good food though.
That said, I've played enough, and have witnessed with my own eyes, the dice about to come to a natural, complete stop, only to have one of them suddenly gain speed, twist, and ensure the end result is a 7. It is an obvious, unnatural roll of the dice. That is just a fact.
As far as using this information to your advantage, you'd need to know each and every bet of every other player that's sitting at the machine and betting, each roll. Then, even if you knew everyone's wagers, each roll, you'd need to be a mathematical super genius, with super computer speed, so as to be able to place an appropriate bet within that 15-20 seconds or however long between rolls.
The rolls are not predetermined. They certainly can average out to odds of table game, but the dice are manipulated throughout play.
One only need to video record an hour or less of play and then slow the video down to prove this, It would be very obvious.Quote: CamsAngelsFirst, I do not claim to be an expert, nor know the inner workings, and programming of bubble craps machines.
That said, I've played enough, and have witnessed with my own eyes, the dice about to come to a natural, complete stop, only to have one of them suddenly gain speed, twist, and ensure the end result is a 7. It is an obvious, unnatural roll of the dice. That is just a fact.
As far as using this information to your advantage, you'd need to know each and every bet of every other player that's sitting at the machine and betting, each roll. Then, even if you knew everyone's wagers, each roll, you'd need to be a mathematical super genius, with super computer speed, so as to be able to place an appropriate bet within that 15-20 seconds or however long between rolls.
The rolls are not predetermined. They certainly can average out to odds of table game, but the dice are manipulated throughout play.
Let's for a minute assume you are right. From what you have posted, It seems to me that you are indicating the machine calculates everyone's bets and then rolls the number that will be most profitable for the house?
What if there is only one other player seated? Now you only have to know one persons bets and then simply bet less than them on the numbers that would be most profitable for the house.
You could find someone that is Super Genius like and work as a team. It may not be perfect, but you don't have to be anywhere near perfect to make an absolute killing.
Now let's assume you hate everybody else and you don't like working with anyone. Let's assume it's hard to find a situation where there's only one or two other people playing, let's assume you don't want to constantly get up and look to see what other bets are being made. One would only have to relocate to a place like Vegas and cherry pick their spots where there's heavy action(I've seen some super big action on the bubble craps, and I don't even look for it). One can assume that most people are not dark side bettors, so you would only need to bet less than them on the dark side. You could occasionally get up to estimate what their bet sizes are in order to tailor your bets accordingly.
If you can prove to yourself and others this is happening, with a little thought and effort you should be able to make a killing. As a matter of fact, if you could prove this is happening you could get rich and never have to step foot in a casino again by contacting the right people and making a deal.
Various subjects:
-Beast mode on shuffle machines
-Slot hold percentage while playing on a players card and no players card.
-Magnetic dice
-BJ third base influence
-10s come together
-Roulette “overdue” for a number theory
-“I only win on a Tuesday and Thursday, but lose Friday and Sunday” phenomenon
And more!
Quote: SiegfriedRoyIf this section is allowed to exist, can it be named: Gambling QANONymous?
Various subjects:
-Beast mode on shuffle machines
-Slot hold percentage while playing on a players card and no players card.
-Magnetic dice
-BJ third base influence
-10s come together
-Roulette “overdue” for a number theory
-“I only win on a Tuesday and Thursday, but lose Friday and Sunday” phenomenon
And more!
i dont get it do you guys just love to talk shit without showinng proof it doesnt because your just as correct as i am
at least i came with the proof and then i have to deal with people like you who put their hands over their eye laugh and say i cant see what your talking about
Quote: beachbumbabsThe point of the forum is smarter, better gambling. Which means debunking systems and paranoid fantasies, among other things.
That may have been true once, but now the only thing it is about is "other things."
Delete any and all posts that don't talk about gambling, and specifically gambling in Las Vegas, and we would be overlooking a vast, empty wasteland.
I'll give you that nowadays Las Vegas has long lost its monopoly on gambling, so let's legitimately expand the scope to a worldwide one.
Many posts start off about gambling, but within a dozen replies forum regulars have hijacked the thread for their own entertainment. Sooner or later we're down the rabbit hole - or one of three or four boring, repetitive holes, where the only "debunking" that takes place is, sooner or later, citations from the CDC, Dr. Fauci, or CNN. More precisely, vague, unsubstantiated, undocumented "citations" that are really "this is what i think I read that agrees with what I think I believe."
I'd support a fantasy department, or tin-foil-hat section, or Alice-In-Wonderland forum, where there is no supervision, no editing, no rules. Our minders would be entitled, as they are now, to delete any entry, anywhere else, that they don't like, and move it to this area.
All that would be left would be submissions that talk about "smarter, better gambling... that debunks systems and paranoid fantasies."
The only problem is that the new Twilight Zone section would end up housing about 80 percent of the stuff we now see here every day.
But it would make the job a lot easier for people who, when they look at a site that's supposed to be about gambling in Las Vegas, they can find what they are looking for.
Again, I can't be absolutely, 100% certain that my claims are gospel. Since we're discussing gambling though, I would bet the bank, that there is a manipulation of the roll of the dice, not every time, but on an occasion when the programming of the machine calls for it.
I'm wondering if you have ever played, or at least watched the game be played, with a neutral mind, and open eyes. Have you?
Quote: Zcore13Yeah, because management walks around the casino and tells you things about their business.
ZCore13
When I was in AC regularly, I hung around a bar that many casino management people went to after work. As a non-casino bar, they often vented about various things and I picked up quite a bit of information that their bosses would probably not want me to know.
People are people and many want to impress others with the things they know.
Quote: Zcore13Yeah, because management walks around the casino and tells you things about their business.
ZCore13
When I was in AC regularly, I hung around a bar that many casino management people went to after work. As a non-casino bar, they often vented about various things and I picked up quite a bit of information that their bosses would probably not want me to know.
People are people and many want to impress others with the things they know.
Some people have the time because they are professional gamblers, so it's their day job. Thinking you'll be caught in 30 to 45 minutes is a ridiculous absurd statement. You'd have to have a picket sign claiming collusion along with a monkey and a parrot on your shoulder for that to happen (exaggerating for effect).Quote: CamsAngelsI actually agree, if your life allotted you the absurd amount of time that'd be necessary, along with being lucky enough to know that "super computer genius" who wanted to try to nickel and dime a machine together, that you could run that show for, oh, maybe 30-45 min before the casino picked up on ur attempted collusion, and banned you from stepping foot in their casino again.
Things have lasted years and people have made millions before the casino's have picked up on various exploits.
I have played a significant amount of bubble craps and I have yet to see anything out of the ordinary.
People will beg, borrow and steal just to get a small advantage on craps.
Even if its not happening every time, it's still highly exploitable. I guarantee you if this were true there would be some highly motivated people willing to do what it takes to bilk the casinos out of their money.
They have Spy pens and various other recoding devices for around $50(get me an hour of video and ill pay for the device). Simply record some sessions and you'll have your proof. Even of you don't want to engage in any exploits yourself, get the proof and then figure out what you want to do with it. I'm sure what you are claiming the machines are doing is a gaming violation in many states.
Quote: AxelWolf
What if there is only one other player seated? Now you only have to know one persons bets and then simply bet less than them on the numbers that would be most profitable for the house.
As usual, Axel can turn a potential added house edge game into a player advantage game!
I think the technology would not be too hard to invent to fix the bubble craps game against the player. Now that I think about it, it already is! Just like real craps. I think bubble craps would be more advantageous to the house, as (presumably) there should be no overpays or mispays in bubble craps, and I'm sure there is some 'leakage' in regular craps.
im about to blow this thread up this is just the beginning
I know all of this is happening in china but screw anyone who trys to act like it DOESNT happen and then makes fun of the people who say they think something is happening
Quote: heatmap
im about to blow this thread up this is just the beginning
I know all of this is happening in china but screw anyone who trys to act like it DOESNT happen and then makes fun of the people who say they think something is happening
I don’t think ANYONE here doesn’t think the technology doesn’t exist that can rig dice, roulette, or cards. But you are aware that by having those green zeros the game is already rigged against the player? That the payouts in craps are ‘rigged’ against the player? Same concept for card games. The risk of getting caught for a regular brick and mortar casino is huge. Not saying it never has happened, but it generally makes no sense to even try. If you are talking about a PLAYER marking cards, using loaded dice.... that’s different. The player is trying to flip the odds. The house doesn’t have to.
Quote: SOOPOOQuote: heatmap
im about to blow this thread up this is just the beginning
I know all of this is happening in china but screw anyone who trys to act like it DOESNT happen and then makes fun of the people who say they think something is happening
I don’t think ANYONE here doesn’t think the technology doesn’t exist that can rig dice, roulette, or cards. But you are aware that by having those green zeros the game is already rigged against the player? That the payouts in craps are ‘rigged’ against the player? Same concept for card games. The risk of getting caught for a regular brick and mortar casino is huge. Not saying it never has happened, but it generally makes no sense to even try. If you are talking about a PLAYER marking cards, using loaded dice.... that’s different. The player is trying to flip the odds. The house doesn’t have to.
the only thing i believe that is in the casino is the shufflers being ... pseudo randomly generated toward a house edge
i believe that its impossible to create a perfect RNG so they utilize a physical RNG which picks the SEED - then pseudo randomly generate the shoe of cards
i believe in RRS which i guess i should have put up there as being rigged
and like i said i hate it when smug people completely deny it at the expense of people like me. sure im nuts. but for how long its been able to go on with so little people being able to defend themselves has been too long imo. im putting it to an end. you want to make fun of someone like me who thinks this stuff isnt real ill be here to shame them.
and BTW Q is not real and its never been which is why im pissed.
Quote: SOOPOOQuote: heatmap
im about to blow this thread up this is just the beginning
I know all of this is happening in china but screw anyone who trys to act like it DOESNT happen and then makes fun of the people who say they think something is happening
I don’t think ANYONE here doesn’t think the technology doesn’t exist that can rig dice, roulette, or cards. But you are aware that by having those green zeros the game is already rigged against the player? That the payouts in craps are ‘rigged’ against the player? Same concept for card games. The risk of getting caught for a regular brick and mortar casino is huge. Not saying it never has happened, but it generally makes no sense to even try. If you are talking about a PLAYER marking cards, using loaded dice.... that’s different. The player is trying to flip the odds. The house doesn’t have to.
I have two issues with what you're saying here, SOOPOO.
First, you are assuming that the entities that would make the decision on things like this are called "the house." Individuals would make the decisions, not some enitities called "the house." Whether some entity called "the house" would be aware is a separate debate that would vary from locale to locale. Individuals would have their own varying means, motives, and opportunities. Just because "the house doesn't have to" DOES NOT mean that individuals wouldn't have the motives to do so. And, regarding the "the house doesn't have to" make more profit, since when does "doesn't have to" translate into "won't?"
Second, go try to find the consequences of rigging in the United States. On those occasions, when cheating has been found, the results have been long-term inconsequential.
Next question: would the casino industry engage in such technology based (illegal) advantage given the choice? On this there will be argument, but in my mind, almost every chance the industry has had to make this decision they have proven to take the low road.
The scary part to me is that manufactures are now providing cover, by enabling these possibilities so that the casinos if caught, could say, "we didn't know anything about it". I doubt they are providing this "cover" on their own.
And finally: Gaming commissions. In most places the relationship between the casino industry and the commission charged with oversight is to put it mildly....way too cozy. The commissions almost have to have their arms twisted to take any action on different things and it has to be pretty blatant and/or public. It amounts to hiring the fox's brother to guard the hen house against the fox.
Now lets just assume that this last part wasn't the case (which it is) and these commission were to legitimately provide fair oversight. Technology is simply moving too fast for them to keep up. Each commission would need a substantial department of tech guys, the best in the business, to keep up and really monitor this quickly evolving situation. That is just beyond their financial and practical capability.
We, the players, whether attempting to play with an advantage or not, are fighting a war we can't win as the rules of war now stand.
Ashford Kneitel
https://harvardjsel.com/wp-content/uploads/sites/9/2019/02/HLS102.pdf
pretty sure this is the end of the argument article - and it basically says the laws are changed in favor of the casinos
Quote: heatmapCasino Countermeasures: Are Casinos Cheating?
Ashford Kneitel
https://harvardjsel.com/wp-content/uploads/sites/9/2019/02/HLS102.pdf
pretty sure this is the end of the argument article - and it basically says the laws are changed in favor of the casinos
Laws don't have to actually be "changed", laws and rules can just be ignored or not enforced.
Take the very simple case of preferential shuffling in blackjack. Shuffling away those rare instances when the player has the advantage, but playing out all the instances where the house has the advantage is altering the outcome and increasing the house advantage or another word...cheating. There is no real argument. But yet for decades now, no gaming commission has outlawed this procedure which really amounts to legalized cheating by the commission's own definition.
Quote: CamsAngelsFirst, I do not claim to be an expert, nor know the inner workings, and programming of bubble craps machines.
That said, I've played enough, and have witnessed with my own eyes, the dice about to come to a natural, complete stop, only to have one of them suddenly gain speed, twist, and ensure the end result is a 7. It is an obvious, unnatural roll of the dice. That is just a fact.
As far as using this information to your advantage, you'd need to know each and every bet of every other player that's sitting at the machine and betting, each roll. Then, even if you knew everyone's wagers, each roll, you'd need to be a mathematical super genius, with super computer speed, so as to be able to place an appropriate bet within that 15-20 seconds or however long between rolls.
The rolls are not predetermined. They certainly can average out to odds of table game, but the dice are manipulated throughout play.
What is your evidence to substantiate your accusation?
Quote: AxelWolfWhat if there is only one other player seated? Now you only have to know one persons bets and then simply bet less than them on the numbers that would be most profitable for the house.
It could be a casino shill. In those cases the dice could be manipulated to allow him to win, but it wouldn't cost the casino anything, while the people betting the opposite side will lose.
Quote: WizardWhat is your evidence to substantiate your accusation?
The evidence is laid out very eloquently in the post that you quoted
Quote: CamsAngelsThat said, I've played enough, and have witnessed with my own eyes, the dice about to come to a natural, complete stop, only to have one of them suddenly gain speed, twist, and ensure the end result is a 7. It is an obvious, unnatural roll of the dice. That is just a fact.
As you can see, this is not some unsubstantiated claim. This statement is a fact. That is made very clear in the last sentence here.
Quote: redietzQuote: SOOPOOQuote: heatmap
im about to blow this thread up this is just the beginning
I know all of this is happening in china but screw anyone who trys to act like it DOESNT happen and then makes fun of the people who say they think something is happening
I don’t think ANYONE here doesn’t think the technology doesn’t exist that can rig dice, roulette, or cards. But you are aware that by having those green zeros the game is already rigged against the player? That the payouts in craps are ‘rigged’ against the player? Same concept for card games. The risk of getting caught for a regular brick and mortar casino is huge. Not saying it never has happened, but it generally makes no sense to even try. If you are talking about a PLAYER marking cards, using loaded dice.... that’s different. The player is trying to flip the odds. The house doesn’t have to.
I have two issues with what you're saying here, SOOPOO.
First, you are assuming that the entities that would make the decision on things like this are called "the house." Individuals would make the decisions, not some enitities called "the house." Whether some entity called "the house" would be aware is a separate debate that would vary from locale to locale. Individuals would have their own varying means, motives, and opportunities. Just because "the house doesn't have to" DOES NOT mean that individuals wouldn't have the motives to do so. And, regarding the "the house doesn't have to" make more profit, since when does "doesn't have to" translate into "won't?"
Second, go try to find the consequences of rigging in the United States. On those occasions, when cheating has been found, the results have been long-term inconsequential.
It's not about anything being "rigged." It's about the ignorance, and close-mindedness of some of people, that is preventing an honest, and just conclusion from the preponderance of the evidence, to be highlighted, and welcomed in this post.
This clearly illustrates how, on any certain roll in bubble craps, the outcome can be determined/programmed, prior to the conclusion of the roll. It's actually a pretty basic concept to understand, and it doesn't even mean that the game is "rigged", necessarily. Man alive, I can't believe it's taking so much, and so long, to prove this is how the game operates.
Thank you for the videos SOOPOO.
Quote: WizardWhat is your evidence to substantiate your accusation?
The more it is discussed, and the more I think about it, I don't think "accusation" is even an appropriate word to use here.
I'm simply stating how the game operates, each and every time I've played it, in addition to each time I've watched it being played. I guess i am accusing it of operating as it is intended to operate. I would hope that is encouraged, and appreciated.
Quote: TomGThe evidence is laid out very eloquently in the post that you quoted
As you can see, this is not some unsubstantiated claim. This statement is a fact. That is made very clear in the last sentence here.
Solid addition to the post. Thank you.
How many times have you sat there and let the game cheat you?Quote: CamsAngelsThe more it is discussed, and the more I think about it, I don't think "accusation" is even an appropriate word to use here.
I'm simply stating how the game operates, each and every time I've played it, in addition to each time I've watched it being played. I guess i am accusing it of operating as it is intended to operate. I would hope that is encouraged, and appreciated.
At this point "capability" is no longer in question and then you are heading down a long slippery slope, involving integrity of the casino industry and whether they are to be trusted with the very limited and biased oversight that is taking place.
By the way, many people laugh at the term "beast mode" on several forums. I guess that term is sort of comical. This guy refers to it as "cheat mode". And then shows you exactly how it works. All of the sudden it doesn't seem so comical. :/
Quote: kewljThe truth is that if random shuffling was the intent, there is no reason for these machines to have the "read the cards capability' which involves a camera. They tell you this is so they can arrange the cards back in sequential order. But that capability, to read the cards and place them in any desired order, almost guarantees cheating will be the next step, when someone, somewhere decides to use it.
The ability to read the cards is very important. The machine can notify the casino if the deck inserted is faulty. If a player introduces an extra card or a duplicate card the machine can detect it.
Quote: DRichThe ability to read the cards is very important. The machine can notify the casino if the deck inserted is faulty. If a player introduces an extra card or a duplicate card the machine can detect it.
I don't buy that argument. If the game is a hand shuffled game, there is nobody notifying the casino of missing or extra cards. The casino has other procedures for this, spreading and changing cards. The shuffle machine is supposed to replace just the shuffle. If you start "reading" the cards, with the ability to sequence them any way desired, and you are already on your way down that slippery slope. Even if that casino is not cheating, they have already compromised the integrity of the game, that is so important to the player believing he is getting a fair game.
Quote: kewljI don't buy that argument. If the game is a hand shuffled game, there is nobody notifying the casino of missing or extra cards. The casino has other procedures for this, spreading and changing cards. The shuffle machine is supposed to replace just the shuffle. If you start "reading" the cards, with the ability to sequence them any way desired, and you are already on your way down that slippery slope. Even if that casino is not cheating, they have already compromised the integrity of the game, that is so important to the player believing he is getting a fair game.
Ah excellent this conversation swayed exactly the way I wanted it to for my next image... unfortunately I got a bit ahead of myself and wanted to type this up before I was at a computer I can search for it on so you all will have to keep living in suspense for now
edit
well to start you should be familiar with this paper
Quote: heatmapCasino Countermeasures: Are Casinos Cheating?
Ashford Kneitel
https://harvardjsel.com/wp-content/uploads/sites/9/2019/02/HLS102.pdf
pretty sure this is the end of the argument article - and it basically says the laws are changed in favor of the casinos
and this paper (so cleverly removed from the internets)
https://web.archive.org/web/20190319091033/https://core.ac.uk/download/pdf/10678382.pdf
the last paper will tell you that everything you know about PEOPLE cheating in casinos is all wrong.
it also contains this important snippet
Quote:When Shuffle Master submitted the game Dealer Bluff Six Card Poker for
approval, the Gaming Control Board warned the manufacturer that the game
might violate the text of NRS 465.075.99 The problem was that Dealer Bluff
included a small element of artificial intelligence, designed to make it more
interesting for players.100 The Gaming Control Board and Nevada Gaming
Commission described the game as fair,101 and maybe fairer because of the
artificial intelligence element.102 However, the Board and the Commission hesitated to approve the game because it appeared to violate the text of NRS
465.075,103 even though they recognized that the game did not violate the spirit
of the law. Part II.F examines the MindPlay and Dealer Bluff Six Card Poker
incidents in detail.
Ultimately, both the Board and Commission conditionally approved
Dealer Bluff Six Card Poker, but required Shuffle Master to modify and resubmit it for additional approvals.104 Not long after that, the casino industry started
lobbying the legislature to update the law.105
the next documents will bring you into a scenario that the pennsylvania gaming control board had to deal with - which pertains to the first document that we all should know. It deals with the wording of laws and how easily the gaming manufacturers have it when it comes to suggestions of wording of the laws. - soon to come
another edit
i cant find the correspondence YET but ill let the internet do the talking for me
here is the old law - i need to find an archived link for the people who need proof but i know this by heart (lol)
just an FYI the older law contained 2 less words
(f) An automated card shuffling device may not provide any information that can be used to aid in the projecting of the outcome of a game, tracking of the cards played and cards remaining to be played, analyzing the probability of the occurrence of an event relating to a game, or analyzing the strategy for playing or betting to be used in a game.
and the new one
(f) An automated card shuffling device may not provide any information that can be used to aid a patron in the projecting of the outcome of a game, tracking of the cards played and cards remaining to be played, analyzing the probability of the occurrence of an event relating to a game, or analyzing the strategy for playing or betting to be used in a game.
https://www.pacodeandbulletin.gov/Display/pacode?file=/secure/pacode/data/058/chapter603a/s603a.17.html&searchunitkeywords=patron&origQuery=%20probability&operator=OR&title=058%20RECREATION#
but the premise of my statement is that shuffle master products have the ability to do all the things the public is not allowed to do - but aparently they do not use it for the generation of random results (their claim) which is what this document that i am trying to find will show you
this is not over yet you all were promised a correspondance letter between shuffle master inc or SMI as they refer to themseleves and the PA gaming control board
HERE THEY ARE!
A)Keep playing it over and over while losing money.
B) figure out how to exploit it and win money.
C) Just walk away and find something else to play.
D) Come talk about it on a forum void of any actual evidence.
E) Report it to the gaming board in your jurisdiction.
F)Keep playing it over and over while losing money and then come talk about it on the forums void of any actual evidence, rinse repeat.
Quote: kewljI don't buy that argument. If the game is a hand shuffled game, there is nobody notifying the casino of missing or extra cards. The casino has other procedures for this, spreading and changing cards. The shuffle machine is supposed to replace just the shuffle. If you start "reading" the cards, with the ability to sequence them any way desired, and you are already on your way down that slippery slope. Even if that casino is not cheating, they have already compromised the integrity of the game, that is so important to the player believing he is getting a fair game.
Obviously we disagree.
Quote: AxelWolf
D) Come talk about it on a forum void of any actual evidence.
wtf?
anyways
im most certain you have - but have you ever actually tried to complain to a gaming control board - or "express yourself" to one? have you ever gone and said the things i have said to one?
i have.
there is nothing. not a single way to actually CHALLENGE what you think may be going on. and when you do you will be met with the fact that its all tested by someone somehow. and that no matter what it wouldnt be in the casino if it was not considered to be fair or whatever it is called.
do you think the people interfacing with me have ANY clue of the internal workings of the machines they are telling me dont do what I say they are doing? No they have no clue. One of us is either correct or incorrect.
i simply hate it when someone comes on here and says its not possible and acts as if its not real. and have no clue what you are talking about. The only reason you are correct as of this point is because i have no proof the things i say are IN CASINOS. so you have me there.
RRS is in casinos thats the truth. and if roulette wheels were as random as they say they are then they wouldnt need it. yet everyone willfully ignores its existence and will constantly say that roulette is the most random game in the world
