Divine Intervention In Gambling?

I've seen a few comments from people who believe that they've experienced such a phenomenon, but remember, I am on several of the video poker forums and as we all know, most of those people aren't the sharpest tools in the shed when it comes to any discussion that supercedes the 5th grade level. But that doesn't mean Divine Intervention (DI) hasn't crossed their paths while waiting for that big winner that'll help them out of a personal jam of some kind.

So, has anyone here ever thought they've experienced this? Of course, those who don't believe in God's existence will attribute certain gut-saving big wins to "the math" or "it is what it is" or "chaos" etc. and it would be difficult to argue for obvious reasons.

Way back when, as I searched for reasons for just about anything, I came across a subject that got me thinking, and I recently saw it brought up in an on-line article. But the columnist didn't really clarify anything, any position, or any potential reasons. It had to do with this: If you were to take off in a ship and go straight up and out assuming no personal or mechanical limitations, where would you be forced to stop....where does it all end? Is there a wall and if so, what's BEHIND that wall, and how far does that go on, then what's after that etc. etc. etc.? And no, those escape explanations saying you'd somehow end up going around in a circle means zero here because you couldn't explain what's on the other outer side of that "circle" and (same question) how far all that goes on for. Black holes lose out too because they have a beginning and an end, and what's behnd their end?

After thinking about all this for quite a while I came to the conclusion that, in addition to other reasons that I believe in of course, God exists. I also attribute one of my wins from years ago to DI. That's a great story. Sure you can ridicule it but you can't disprove it. I believe he is the only being that can accurately explain the answer to my question, and since the problem is a real one and not a virtual one, it has to have an explanation. Anyone want to play God?

I'm a believer in God, and I suppose anything is possible, so I guess God could step in and change the dice throw so that it rolls that hard six you've been betting big on.

However, to what end? Why would the creator of the universe want to make sure you win some more of those American dollars?

I thought it has been established that God does not play dice with the Universe.

Whether He plays dice in the Universe is a different question. ;)

Quote: ElectricDreams

I'm a believer in God, and I suppose anything is possible, so I guess God could step in and change the dice throw so that it rolls that hard six you've been betting big on.

However, to what end? Why would the creator of the universe want to make sure you win some more of those American dollars?

God knows your heart and that, after promising to give it all to charity, you will actually stiff Him and keep the dough.

Shouldn't a bible-believing theist believe that every outcome in the casino is divinely determined?

Quote: Wizard

Shouldn't a bible-believing theist believe that every outcome in the casino is divinely determined?

Depends if they are a deist or not.

Quote: Wizard

Shouldn't a bible-believing theist believe that every outcome in the casino is divinely determined?

No. Some outcomes are just play, but other results are critical. HE decides which is which.
Likewise, on some days we avoid a car accident on skill. Other days his hand is involved.

Quote: Paigowdan

Quote: Wizard

Shouldn't a bible-believing theist believe that every outcome in the casino is divinely determined?

No. Some outcomes are just play, but other results are critical. HE decides which is which.
Likewise, on some days we avoid a car accident on skill. Other days his hand is involved.

So good outcomes are the result of divine intervention, but bad outcomes are not? If I get in a fatal auto accident, couldn't an omnipotent and omniscient God have seen it coming, and done something to prevent it? Therefore, by his failure to act, God killed me just as surely as if he had hit me with a lightning bolt.

Quote: Nareed

I thought it has been established that God does not play dice with the Universe.

Whether He plays dice in the Universe is a different question. ;)

Actually, God TOLD Einstein to say that, as part of the immense insidious cover-up that God has been perpetrating: in actuality, God rolls twenty-sided dice to determine the outcome of EVERYTHING, including the weather, how long we live, and whether that hard eight rolls when we have the rent money on it.

Quote: Wizard

Shouldn't a bible-believing theist believe that every outcome in the casino is divinely determined?

It's easy to construct the model of a benevolent God by simply attributing every positive event to his divine influence, and ignoring all the negative events (or constructing an "adversary" who can be blamed for them). Animistic religions often went the other way: if the volcano erupted or a hurricane flattened everything, that was ipso facto proof that Ooga Booga was displeased.

One of the more rational views of God I've read is that he has simply constructed a deterministic universe, and does not intervene in the outcome. However, this makes prayer, as well as church attendance, pretty much useless, so most religions reject that model, as it would cost them the big revenues that are the true object of all organized religions.

So go ahead and pray for that hard four: it's not likely to make much difference one way or the other.

Quote: mkl654321

So go ahead and pray for that hard four: it's not likely to make much difference one way or the other.

Reminds me of an old joke:

Q: What is the difference between praying in church and praying in a casino?
A: In the casino, you really mean it.

Quote: mkl654321

Quote: Paigowdan

Quote: Wizard

Shouldn't a bible-believing theist believe that every outcome in the casino is divinely determined?

No. Some outcomes are just play, but other results are critical. HE decides which is which.
Likewise, on some days we avoid a car accident on skill. Other days his hand is involved.

So good outcomes are the result of divine intervention, but bad outcomes are not? If I get in a fatal auto accident, couldn't an omnipotent and omniscient God have seen it coming, and done something to prevent it? Therefore, by his failure to act, God killed me just as surely as if he had hit me with a lightning bolt.

Never said that, MKL. Hopefully, good outcomes are the results of people, and all too often bad outcomes are.

As for your auto accident scenario, sometimes He will just let us hang ourselves - or crash and burn by our own hand. In such a scenario, He did not" fail to act;" He acted, and He allowed you to hang yourself. When it comes to saving ourselves or hanging ourselves, the "divine action" is that it is often allowed to happen, in a "let it come to be" sense, no matter how horriffic it seems. And it does.

Quote: mkl654321

So good outcomes are the result of divine intervention, but bad outcomes are not? If I get in a fatal auto accident, couldn't an omnipotent and omniscient God have seen it coming, and done something to prevent it? Therefore, by his failure to act, God killed me just as surely as if he had hit me with a lightning bolt.

I could post something really funny here, but if I do and he gets wind of it I'm afraid the guy's gonna come up with his latest thesis in response.

Quote: Paigowdan

No. Some outcomes are just play, but other results are critical. HE decides which is which.

Never said that, MKL. Hopefully, good outcomes are the results of people, and all too often bad outcomes are.

Actually, you DID say exactly that. If God has the power to intervene--and most religions say that he does--then failure to intervene is the exact same thing as actively causing an event: in either case, it happens because God wants it to happen. If the thesis is that ALL events are under God's control, then it logically follows that everything that happens is God's will.

The problem with saying that God "just lets us hang ourselves" is that constructing us fallible mortals, and then allowing us to destroy ourselves by our own foolishness, is the exact same thing, from the standpoint of an omniscient and omnipotent God, as simply killing us at his whim. In either case, the outcome is controlled by God, and any "free will" we have is just an illiusion.

I personally reject this whole line of thinking, but it's worth noting that if God does exist, and is as Christian mythology says he is, then there's no point whatsoever in praying, going to church, or behaving well, decently, or lawfully. Whatever we will do in our lives has already been determined by God; if we decide to do something evil, it will be because God has decreed that we do that. Without personal agency, there can never be personal responsibility.

Quote: Wizard

Reminds me of an old joke:

Q: What is the difference between praying in church and praying in a casino?
A: In the casino, you really mean it.

What's more, there is a huge amount of empirical evidence that prayers in casinos are answered much more often than prayers in church!

Sounds like a no-brainer for a new themed casino. Such a place could also feature Vegas' coolest wedding chapel.

Quote: mkl654321

The problem with saying that God "just lets us hang ourselves" is that constructing us fallible mortals, and then allowing us to destroy ourselves by our own foolishness, is the exact same thing, from the standpoint of an omniscient and omnipotent God, as simply killing us at his whim. In either case, the outcome is controlled by God, and any "free will" we have is just an illiusion.

No, the thing is, if we hang ourselves by our own hand, then that's our free will completing its own action, regardless if God chooses to stand aside - because we took that course of our choosing which got completed, by our intentions, even though there was a chance it might have been foiled by God or man. So We did it, and completed it - when we could have taken any number of other courses. That Is Free Will.

And no, if we decide to do something evil, it's because we as people took that action - NOT that God or anyone else decreed it - and God may or may not let it stand. We have a TON of choice in our actions: we decree, we choose, we take action, we decide, and God approves or disapproves, with or without action that he decides, and with a report card on the other side/the next life/etc. MKL, Please note that I did not mention the Booleans "Heaven" and "Hell."

And..for most of us here, casinos are our temples, at least to some degree. I admit it.

Quote: JerryLogan

If you were to take off in a ship and go straight up and out assuming no personal or mechanical limitations, where would you be forced to stop....where does it all end? Is there a wall and if so, what's BEHIND that wall, and how far does that go on, then what's after that etc. etc. etc.? And no, those escape explanations saying you'd somehow end up going around in a circle means zero here because you couldn't explain what's on the other outer side of that "circle" and (same question) how far all that goes on for. Black holes lose out too because they have a beginning and an end, and what's behnd their end?

MKL.. Wizard... What do you think is on the "other side"?

Quote: Paigowdan

No, the thing is, if we hang ourselves by our own hand, then that's our free will completing its own action, regardless if God chooses to stand aside - because we took that course of our choosing which got completed, by our intentions, even though there was a chance it might have been foiled by God or man. So We did it, and completed it - when we could have taken any number of other courses. That Is Free Will.

And no, if we decide to do something evil, it's because we as people took that action - NOT that God or anyone else decreed it - and God may or may not let it stand. We have a TON of choice in our actions: we decree, we choose, we take action, we decide, and God approves or disapproves, with or without action that he decides, and with a report card on the other side/the next life/etc. MKL, Please note that I did not mention the Booleans "Heaven" and "Hell."

And..for most of us here, casinos are our temples, at least to some degree. I admit it.

That's a real apologia for God, to say that good things happen because of his divine will, but bad things happen because of our human evil natures. Once again, I'll repeat--if something happens that God had the power to stop, then there is no functional (or moral) difference between that and God's directly causing that something to happen.

Let's remove human agency from the equation, to see if I can un-muddle your thinking.

1. Big tsunami. Thousands of people die. God does nothing to stop it, or to warn the victims.
2. God deliberately sends a tsunami, with the express purpose of killing thousands of people.

Is there any functional difference between the two events, or in God's role in their occurence?

Now look at this one:

1. Hitler comes to power. He kills millions of people. God does nothing to stop him, or to save Hitler's victims.
2. God deliberately creates Hitler, who fulfills God's goal of killing millions of people.

Now, in both cases 1. and 2., Hitler may have THOUGHT he had free will, but he really didn't. In one case, God chose not to intervene. In the other case, he chose to directly cause something to happen. Both the scenarios were the direct outcome of God's will, NOT that of the humans involved.

Quote: Ayecarumba

MKL.. Wizard... What do you think is on the "other side"?

The "space is curved" hypothesis is like the Mobius strip--it actually only has one side. Thus, a trip along its curved surface will always end up back at the point of origin. And black holes don't actually HAVE a beginning or end---they are severely curved gravitational distortions of space. The physics is largely theoretical, but it's elegant, and empirical observations have tended to confirm its validity.

So I don't think there IS an "other side". I think it's all the same side. Likewise, time isn't linear, but rather curved, and if extrapolated, forms a loop. This goes to the relativistic theory that says space and time are simply different manifestations of the same thing.

Many people (like JL) reject this explanation because they can't conceive of the space outside this loop. But by definition, what is outside the space-time loop is neither space nor time, so trying to refer to it in those terms (such as: where is it relative to our universe?) is pointless. We won't have a term for what exists outside space and time until we have a way to observe or experience it.

Quote: mkl654321

The "space is curved" hypothesis is like the Mobius strip--it actually only has one side. Thus, a trip along its curved surface will always end up back at the point of origin. And black holes don't actually HAVE a beginning or end---they are severely curved gravitational distortions of space. The physics is largely theoretical, but it's elegant, and empirical observations have tended to confirm its validity.

So I don't think there IS an "other side". I think it's all the same side. Likewise, time isn't linear, but rather curved, and if extrapolated, forms a loop. This goes to the relativistic theory that says space and time are simply different manifestations of the same thing.

Many people (like JL) reject this explanation because they can't conceive of the space outside this loop. But by definition, what is outside the space-time loop is neither space nor time, so trying to refer to it in those terms (such as: where is it relative to our universe?) is pointless. We won't have a term for what exists outside space and time until we have a way to observe or experience it.

Was there anything before "the loop"?

Quote: Ayecarumba

Was there anything before "the loop"?

Possibly not, and I suspect science won't ever have a solid answer to this question in my life time.

Quote: Ayecarumba

MKL.. Wizard... What do you think is on the "other side"?

I don't disagree with what MKL just wrote. However, he evidently understands it better than I do. The best I can explain it is the universe is like a Felix the Cat cartoon, where when you reach the end, you start back at the beginning. Of course, I don't really know, but prefer the company in that camp, than say the camp that believes the universe is 6,000 years old and was created in six days.

God is going to alter your dice roll while he lets some starving baby die?

Quote: Ayecarumba

Was there anything before "the loop"?

Sure, there was the "Twister", the "Mad Mouse", and the "Plunge". Oh wait, we aren't talking about roller coasters.

If time forms a continuous loop, then there wasn't any "before" and there won't be any "after", at least as we understand them. And that means the Cubs will win another World Series after all, when 1908 comes around again.

Quote: mkl654321

The "space is curved" hypothesis is like the Mobius strip.

Oh, see here

Quote: Wizard

I don't disagree with what MKL just wrote. However, he evidently understands it better than I do. The best I can explain it is the universe is like a Felix the Cat cartoon, where when you reach the end, you start back at the beginning. Of course, I don't really know, but prefer the company in that camp, than say the camp that believes the universe is 6,000 years old and was created in six days.

It just strikes me as odd that one who puts faith in a theory because of its, "elegance", could not entertain the notion of a creator as the most elegant solution to the, "where did it first come from?" question.

Even Felix had Otto Messmer and Joe Oriolo.

If God knows what you'll be doing later, he can punish you before you even do it. This is why people are confused about justice and evil. God may burn down your house this year, for what you were going to do next year. It all works out in the long run though.

The best defense God came up with, is the thing about not testing him. What are you gonna do then? (well the Christian god, don't know about the others)

I'm going to get smited, any minute now.

Quote: JerryLogan

If you were to take off in a ship and go straight up and out assuming no personal or mechanical limitations, where would you be forced to stop....where does it all end? Is there a wall and if so, what's BEHIND that wall, and how far does that go on, then what's after that etc. etc. etc.? And no, those escape explanations saying you'd somehow end up going around in a circle means zero here because you couldn't explain what's on the other outer side of that "circle" and (same question) how far all that goes on for. Black holes lose out too because they have a beginning and an end, and what's behnd their end?

Not everything necessarily has a beginning and an end. That's just our inability to think clearly about the issues, which I admit is difficult because we are 3-dimensional beings and the Universe may not be. Did you ever read Flatland? Start here: WikiPedia article on Flatland

Consider a 2-dimensional being that can only perceive and operate in two dimensions. It can move forward, backward, left or right, but it has no concept of up or down. Now put it on a very large sphere. From its perspective, the sphere is an infinite universe. From our 3-D perspective it's clearly not, but we're not the one observing the sphere in two dimensions. Step up one dimension and you have us. And here's the rub: humanity operates in 3-D, and we didn't even acknowledge that the Earth wasn't flat until about 2500 years ago. And as recently as 400 years ago you had major religious movements opposing the publication of books on heliocentricity.

Point is, most of us don't even know what we don't know. It takes a bold mind to step back and admit it, and an even bolder one to go looking for new answers. If you want to believe in a particular religion, that's fine, but that's an entirely different issue that whether you understand science or whether science can yet explain the universe. It can't right now, but here's the problem with that science/religion dichotomy. At some point in the future, human science may indeed be able to explain the universe. If that happens, and that lack of explanation was your only "reason" for believing in the divine, what will you have left? Don't make your faith contingent on lack of human knowledge to date.

Also, a black hole doesn't have a beginning and an end. A black hold isn't a hole that you pass through. It's just a clump of matter so dense that no light is reflected from it.

I think we need some Insane Clown Posse (not work safe...) :

http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=_-agl0pOQfs

"F***ing Magnets? How do they work?"

Quote: Ayecarumba

It just strikes me as odd that one who puts faith in a theory because of its, "elegance", could not entertain the notion of a creator as the most elegant solution to the, "where did it first come from?" question.

1) The notion of a creator is not an elegant solution, as all it does in the end is push the problem back one step: Where did the creator come from?

2) While scientists prefer so-called elegant solutions, they don't place "faith" or belief on a theory due to its elegance.

Quote: mkl654321

That's a real apologia for God, to say that good things happen because of his divine will, but bad things happen because of our human evil natures. Once again, I'll repeat--if something happens that God had the power to stop, then there is no functional (or moral) difference between that and God's directly causing that something to happen.

MKL - I said "note that I did not mention the Booleans Heaven and Hell."
This means I also did not say "good things happen because of his divine will - but bad things because of people." YOU said that, let's be clear. So let's unmuddle your thinking.
1. People do good things and bad things. This has to do with people and their free will. I'm saying this, and this is generally ackowledged. I agree with this, let's be clear.
2. Good things and bad things happen. This has to do with the dynamics of Earth. I'm saying this, and this is generally acknowledged.

Big tsunami comes. Some people are in the way, and some people aren't. Some people die, and some people don't. God may have done nothing to start it or stop it, no intention on his part, no will on his part. Some people may have been allowed to die - with his okay - and some people may have had the hand of God stop it for them, as in "Awww...God damn it, I missed my flight to Bangkok, freaking flat tire!" That lucky clown was still needed around. Or it may be a coincidence. We don't know, because the hand is invisible, we can't see it, and we can declare it doesn't exist. Fine. If a tree falls in the woods, and we didn't see it, and it doesn't mean squat in our lives, then it's our proof that it hadn't fallen as far as our lives and opinions are concerned. Maybe the hand of God doesn't exist. Maybe it does, and he does play dice, and he picks and chooses his numbers and people, at their right time, which we then see as winners and losers in terms of variance. Variance gives Him a lot of cloaking when he cherry-picks the important things hidden under the noise.

For the record, Hitler lost, and there was a time that he looked like an odds on favorite. Maybe God told Werner Heisenberg "you won't do it, because Oppenheimer, Feynman, Einstein and company will [ironically, the Jews of Los Alamos]." His uncertainty was enough.

So Hitler comes to power and kills millions, true horror. Alexander Fleming stumbles across Penicillin, and saves millions, true blessing in a secular sense. Some get the latest example of the "treatment," - life or death - and some don't. Under that all, if God picked and chose some for their right time of death and some for their right time of being spared, at least for a short while, would we see His hand? No. But if it exists, the Hand of God, it's in the details.

Would we need to see it for it to be there? No. Might it exist? Yes.
But then, Might it not exist? Also yes. So what's it about?

Faith is believing in what cannot be proven, and might or might not be true. I believe that a tree fell in the woods yesterday, somewhere in Oregon. Didn't see it, didn't need to.

To get back to God in the Gambling Halls, the original point of this thread, I believe that some people nail a small jackpot here and there that doesn't get chased back into the casinos' coffers, and ends up being used for something devine on occasion, that they don't even know about.

We play dice, too.

Isn't it FUN getting this idiot mkl going!

MKL can be a catalyst....

What I do these days is write a reply to the more reactionary members of the board, then delete it. This way I don't actually waste anyone elses time shouting into a large empty bucket, but still feel slightly better myself.

Besides, it's not big and clever to write half the swear words I use about them down.

Anyways, The God of the Gaps and the God of the Unknowable Plans seem to be weak explanations of the universe to me, and really cheap get outs to the hard questions of life. Not that "why are we hear?" being answered by "because we are, there is no why; and the how is a far more interesting question" is much better, but that's how I see the world, the miserable and unhappy atheist that I am (q.v. JerryLogan... a claim he has made before about atheist but never actually backed up).

The Deist non-interventionist God is a rather more interesting and coherently logical explanation than the magic sky fairy (thanks PZ Meyers) who sometimes gets involved, but that doesn't make everyone feel quite as happy and soulful inside. Still, it worked for Jefferson and a good proportion of the Founding Fathers.

Quote: Ayecarumba

It just strikes me as odd that one who puts faith in a theory because of its, "elegance", could not entertain the notion of a creator as the most elegant solution to the, "where did it first come from?" question.

Even Felix had Otto Messmer and Joe Oriolo.

You misunderstand. I don't put any "FAITH" in this, or any other theory. Faith is, by definition, the negation of logical and rational thought--you believe, not because of any evidence supporting that belief, but rather, DESPITE that lack of evidence.

Anything that science posits as a "theory" is a way of viewing the causal effect of phenomena without the ability to subject that theory to empirical proof. There may be strong INFERENTIAL evidence, and that's why I dubbed the theory of curved space "elegant"--it explains a great many phenomena in a logically consistent way. A theory's elegance is one of many circumstantial but compelling arguments for its correctness--the theory of gravitation is elegant, for example.

The theory of a creator is not elegant--it is simplistic. There's a huge difference. Plus, the theory of a creator contains several self-refuting paradoxes, so those loose ends are anything BUT elegant. I agree that it's very easy to just chuck science and reason out the window and say "God made everything". It's also more satisfying, especially for those who don't like science's simple, honest answer: "There are some things we know, some things we partially know, and some things we have yet to discover."

Quote: Paigowdan

MKL can be a catalyst....

And the fact that idiots like JerryLogan call ME an idiot makes me all the more certain of the soundness of my position. In a way, he's a perfect reverse barometer. Unlike him, though, I would never call someone else an idiot simply because I disagreed with them--I would call them an idiot because they displayed the characteristic of idiocy.

There are several sides to this debate, which is to be expected since at its core, we are dealing with the human condition. I think an omnipotent and omniscient God is a logical impossibility, but I certainly don't expect everyone to agree with my logic. I also respect the faith-based argument despite what I feel is its fundamental logical flaw, but I do realize how compelling and comforting is is for so many people. It might be that a faith-based world is happier than a rational one.

Quote: rxwine

God is going to alter your dice roll while he lets some starving baby die?

Well, gee, I would hope that he is capable of multi-tasking.

Yes, maybe. But he doesn't let some baby die - we do these crimes to children and others.

Speculating on the existence of a creator (of some sort) is not such big leap of faith actually. It's a conclusion you could entertain (among many) as to why everything is as it is, I suppose.


However, it's the willingness to believe other people who say they have knowledge about and connections to such a creator -- that's the really big leap. Because then you can start questioning how they possess such knowledge, and what sort of validity there is about any of their conclusions.

If I kept a really accurate diary for a long time, and in those pages, I relate believing I saw a ghost one evening who spoke to me. Then there you go. It's practically the defintion some people take as proof, once you get enough of a crowd endorsing it.

So, what I have is lots of facts (which might verify well, fact checked by newspaper accounts of what's going on in the world) and a paranormal-like experience. If all my facts check out, because I was relentlessly accurate, says nothing about how likely it is that the ghost part is true. Just, that what I saw, I then diligently and faithfully recorded. Just as I might record seeing an image-likeness of Mother Mary on a building, or seeing lights moving (UFO) in the sky, or David Blane levitating off the sidewalk, heh. Why I can show you lots of people reported seeing UFOs in NYC recently, and if more people means truth, then it must of certainly been an alien ship of some sort. But actually, it's not how many people witness "something they can't explain" that proves it, it's the persons or persons who can establish that it meets all the criteria one could reasonably expect that something is what it is. And what we have in all religions that I know of, is far from that, as far as establishing the main tenets of their beliefs when it comes to the supernatural.

In regard to casino gambling, with all the noise and confusion of everyone wanting something, often many different things at the same time, God opts for the simplest solution: "Bust everybody!"

Quote: skrbornevrymin

God opts for the simplest solution: "Bust everybody!"

But why does He always start with busting me!

Quote: JerryLogan

Isn't it FUN getting this idiot mkl going!

Reading some JerryLogan posts as I've seen many references to him in the forum…..yeah I have no life. He was a real flame thrower.

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