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rxwine
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Mission146
July 26th, 2018 at 1:50:20 PM permalink
Quote: Rigondeaux

Its cool to know what these terms mean.

On the political compass, in the broad sense, a liberal is someone who thinks changes should be actively promoted. A conservative wants to keep things how they are and/or allow changes to occur more organically.



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Conservatives pride themselves on resisting change, which is as it should be. But intelligent deference to tradition and stability can evolve into intellectual sloth and moral fanaticism, as when conservatives simply decline to look up from dogma because the effort to raise their heads and reconsider is too great.
-William F. Buckley




Oops, edited out my own comment. All political views shift somewhat, but there was nothing wrong with your original statement.
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Mission146
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July 26th, 2018 at 1:56:40 PM permalink
Quote: Rigondeaux

The free speech thing kills me. It sort of caught me of guard. One day you wake up and tons of young people don't believe in free speech. Due process too.



Exactly. Both 100% correct. I also think, "Social justice," means, "Social ostracization," because that's what they seem to want done to those who would have the audacity to oppose them on anything. Or, make a joke, that too.

Quote:

It comes from people living in their own little bubble worlds I guess. Once they become dogmatists there is only their version of reality, and evil.



I disagree. I think it's pretentious as hell, if you want to know the truth. People keep coming up with new ridiculous, "Triggers," and who knows what else. The SJW's and far-left are essentially in a race to be the most accepting and politically correct. It's like a bunch of cult members prostrating themselves before the leader to curry favor. Except, there is no leader, in this case. The closest thing to a leader is not being banished from the circle jerk.

Quote:

At the same time, there are issues where I find it is good vs evil. If Joe schmoe was duped into supporting the Iraq war, I don't blame him. But politicians and journalists knowingly supporting a war on false pretenses... If that ain't evil, what is?



Sugar cookies. Very bland and chalky. Stick to the roof of your mouth. True evil.
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rxwine
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July 26th, 2018 at 2:07:50 PM permalink
Quote: Mission146

Exactly. Both 100% correct. I also think, "Social justice," means, "Social ostracization," because that's what they seem to want done to those who would have the audacity to oppose them on anything. Or, make a joke, that too.




It has shifted back and forth between several groups and will likely do so in the future. Consider this list of historical book burnings.


https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/List_of_book-burning_incidents
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Face
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July 26th, 2018 at 3:38:24 PM permalink
Quote: Mission146


Your tolerance and, "Live and let live," attitude has betrayed you, Face! It looks like you and I are almost in lockstep politically!



On one hand. On the other, I've never been incited by a post like I've been incited by some of yours. Previous to this, I would have wagered that the only thing we agreed on politically is that there is a government and yes, we should have one lol.

I dunno, I find I suffer cognitive dissonance all the time. Not so much with acting against my beliefs, but the holding conflicting ideas aspect. On a micro level, it'd be fair to say I'm nearing full Marx. My efforts to create an Old World neighborhood where everyone was friendly and kids and dogs could run unfettered is becoming almost a commune. Forget simple things such as sub-hour childcare or borrowing a ladder, it's to the point people are purging equipment. Why have 8 lawnmowers for 8 houses when you can just share 1? Bob's is the best, we'll use his, and do Bob's landscaping to cover his cost of purchase and maintenance. Everybody else purges theirs, and then each buys one piece to the rest of the puzzle. Jim gets a roller, Bognish gets the snowblower attachment, Zeke nabs a power washer. Now everybody has eight things, but everybody's only had to buy one. It's bleeding amazing, and without a doubt the best thing one could do.

I just can't translate it to the macro. I can't see it working, and thoughts of trying make me angry. Perhaps it's the control factor, the idea that if one of my 8 steps out, I can physically reach him. Perhaps it's the security of power, knowing that if I find myself being taken advantage of or victimized, I personally can act and be certain that it stops exactly when I want or need it to. Or maybe it's a different kind of regular ol' control, as in my 8 I am making the decision myself, whereas with national socialism all the decisions are being made for me. I dunno, but this is an example of the cog-dis. On one hand and in real life practice, I see that a sort of social/commune structure is the absolute best option. On the other, the mere mention of leftist ideas sends me to realcheapammo.com for tithing.


Government should provide essential services only. Health, safety, and defense, the last of which should be gutted like a puffer fish. On the other, art, music, museums, education, et al are absolutely vital to having a country worth a s#$% and must be funded at any cost. Healthcare is a service, and you've no right to ask Uncle Sam to pay SOOPOO for sleepy times than you do asking Uncle Sam to pay for Face to fix your four wheel drive. If you want it, YOU go get it. On the other, it seems obvious, or at least reasonable to assume, that whatever the negative cost of fronting SOOPOO's fee is several times less than the cost of lost productivity in these folks who are ailing. I could go on and on. Unless it's drugs or guns, I'm double sided on just about every issue I can think of. So what am I? What do I call myself, where do I fall?

I cope by compartmentalizing. In theory / on paper / in simulation, I'd probably be left as hell. I suppose it's fair to say it's where I'd want to be and what I think, in theory, could provide the best end result. But I view all that stuff as idealistic. In a perfect world where charlatans were a rarity and POS were shunned and exiled instead of lauded and promoted, sure. But they're not, and I'm far, far too defensive psychologically to accept that. Much like my personal life, I will forgo many positives to ensure I don't suffer a single negative. So, sorry Uncle Bern, but I gotta roll with Uncle Ted.
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Mission146
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July 26th, 2018 at 4:15:15 PM permalink
Quote: Face

On one hand. On the other, I've never been incited by a post like I've been incited by some of yours. Previous to this, I would have wagered that the only thing we agreed on politically is that there is a government and yes, we should have one lol.



(Emphasis Added)

Thanks for the compliment!

Quote:

I dunno, I find I suffer cognitive dissonance all the time. Not so much with acting against my beliefs, but the holding conflicting ideas aspect. On a micro level, it'd be fair to say I'm nearing full Marx. My efforts to create an Old World neighborhood where everyone was friendly and kids and dogs could run unfettered is becoming almost a commune. Forget simple things such as sub-hour childcare or borrowing a ladder, it's to the point people are purging equipment. Why have 8 lawnmowers for 8 houses when you can just share 1? Bob's is the best, we'll use his, and do Bob's landscaping to cover his cost of purchase and maintenance. Everybody else purges theirs, and then each buys one piece to the rest of the puzzle. Jim gets a roller, Bognish gets the snowblower attachment, Zeke nabs a power washer. Now everybody has eight things, but everybody's only had to buy one. It's bleeding amazing, and without a doubt the best thing one could do.



I think it's fair to suggest that many people suffer cognitive dissonance. Personally, I understand that many of my ideals could only really work Universally applied, but at the same time, I've become pretty big on states rights. I find the amount of power that one party who controls the bodies of Congress and the Presidency at the same time alarming. That's not just because Trump is in office, either. I'm talking ObamaCare (which I generally would support) being passed despite the fact that over half of the country didn't want it.

As far as the localized commune goes, I think the sad truth of Marxism is that it needs to be well-funded (relative to who is in it) and the bigger the utopia gets, the more difficult it is to manage. That pretty much stands to reason, right? It's like they say, "You guys will have nothing, but at least it'll be divided equally."

I think you're right about the hang-ups. With your eight household thing, that's where you're at. You have one-eighth of the power and you're contributing one-eighth of the goods. You guys must have the most amazing block parties!

Quote:

Government should provide essential services only. Health, safety, and defense, the last of which should be gutted like a puffer fish. On the other, art, music, museums, education, et al are absolutely vital to having a country worth a s#$% and must be funded at any cost. Healthcare is a service, and you've no right to ask Uncle Sam to pay SOOPOO for sleepy times than you do asking Uncle Sam to pay for Face to fix your four wheel drive. If you want it, YOU go get it. On the other, it seems obvious, or at least reasonable to assume, that whatever the negative cost of fronting SOOPOO's fee is several times less than the cost of lost productivity in these folks who are ailing. I could go on and on. Unless it's drugs or guns, I'm double sided on just about every issue I can think of. So what am I? What do I call myself, where do I fall?



I agree with the first three that you said and with education. I would suggest that art, music and museums are all primarily forms of entertainment (before being educational, though they are both) and should be funded either privately or by way of donations. I guess you could make an argument for museums of science and history being educational. Museums of art? Meh.

I really wouldn't want to see Government spending on any non-essential programs whatsoever. Anything recreational I would want to see done with publicly voted levies, like parks and such. The towns can be as nice as the townspeople are willing to vote to make them. I would eliminate national parks entirely, waste of money, not the Government's business. Roads are necessary, obviously.

Quote:

I cope by compartmentalizing. In theory / on paper / in simulation, I'd probably be left as hell. I suppose it's fair to say it's where I'd want to be and what I think, in theory, could provide the best end result. But I view all that stuff as idealistic. In a perfect world where charlatans were a rarity and POS were shunned and exiled instead of lauded and promoted, sure. But they're not, and I'm far, far too defensive psychologically to accept that. Much like my personal life, I will forgo many positives to ensure I don't suffer a single negative. So, sorry Uncle Bern, but I gotta roll with Uncle Ted.



I'm really just left when it comes to basic needs: food, medical, education, roads, basic infrastructure and defense to the degree that is necessary. (Defense would include police) I would categorize anything that either doesn't, or only loosely, falls under those purviews as wasteful spending. Debates about putting statues up, for example, why is the Government wasting money on statues? To commemorate history? Teach it in school, that'll be commemoration enough, especially if they go ahead and teach an honest accounting of events.
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Face
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July 26th, 2018 at 4:38:39 PM permalink
Quote: Rigondeaux

The free speech thing kills me. It sort of caught me of guard. One day you wake up and tons of young people don't believe in free speech. Due process too.

It comes from people living in their own little bubble worlds I guess. Once they become dogmatists there is only their version of reality, and evil.



You're seeing the result. I want you, I mean seriously want you, to consider the cause.

***Disclaimer - I'm going to talk about guns, but only because it's what I know and not because I want a gun discussion. If something I say interests and/or triggers you, please copy/paste it into the default gun discussion repository (gunshow loophole thread) and we'll have that discussion there. Many thanks***


If you pop into left leaning sites and view gun news, you'll see a slew of terms and numerous types of rhetoric being used. This "news" is not news at all; it quite simply is nothing but propaganda. The term "assault weapon" didn't exist until the media created it. "Assault rifle", sure, because it is a specific type of weapon (a rifle) designed for a very specific purpose (to attack enemy forces in direct combat, aka military definition of assault). "Assault weapon" is but hokum, used precisely to engender an emotional response. If you look, you'll see this agenda being pushed and spreading as a result. Today, we don't even blink at "assault weapon"; it's been successfully inserted into the lexicon. But it's still going on. My god rotting Sen, Mr Chuck Schumer (and cousin to that foul beast Amy) is currently getting his panties in a knot and firing up the riff raff about 3D printed guns.

Quote: Chuck Schumer

I am sounding an alarm that come Aug. 1, America is going to get a lot less safe when it comes to the gut-wrenching epidemic of gun violence




NYS is third best in the country re: gun deaths. We're around 900 a year, in a state of close to 20,000,000. And 30k marks the nationwide total, with 330mm+ as the pop. So, "gutwrenching"? "Epidemic?" 500,000 homeless people in the richest nation that has ever existed is gutwrenching. Veterans dying by the tens every f#$%ing day to suicide is gutwrenching. 400,000 kids without homes being bounced from foster to foster is gutwrenching. Let us please cut the s#$%.

He goes on to say that these "ghost guns" (not a real term until invented by those with an agenda, cuz ooooh spooky) could "mimic the look and capacity of a hardened, fully semi automatic weapon". You're a bright guy, Ragu. Do you think how something looks affects anything? Are you the type that thinks a Saturn SL2 could put down 10sec quarters because it has a ricer wing and diffuser? Course not, cuz looks is immaterial, but anything to draw similarities, amirite? Next, we have "hardened". What is hardened, Rigon? I know when I hear "hardened" I think of "hardened criminal" or "hardened emplacement", like a bunker, like they have in war. We can't be having that, surely. And then the icing on the brainwashing cake, he comes in with a mf'in "fully semi automatic".

As much as we like to state it (and sometimes hope it's true, as the alternative is terrifying) these folks are not stupid. Mr. Schumer is not some f#$%wit, snot nosed kid swinging above his weight class. This is engineered propaganda, plain and simple. Use terms to shock the rubes until they grab the pitchforks, then let "useful idiots" do the work for you.

You're tech savvy, IIRC. Tell me you did not or are not still seeing the same sort of misinfo campaign surrounding net neutrality.


The bubble is part of it, certainly. But more than the fact that the bubble exists, what gets me the absolute most is people's willing desire to remain in it, even when showed beyond a doubt that the bubble is false, faulty, or even harmful. Perhaps it's much like my actual stance of Individualism vs my desired stance of Socialism, where certain personality traits don't allow them to go there. Free Speech might strike them as important, but its use means sometimes it comes back at them in a way they can't accept, so better to dump the speech than have their stance be challenged. Have enough people say something is "too damaging to say", get enough people on board repeating it, the most passionate make enough noise so one person sounds like one thousand, and suddenly all those who feel that way are now emboldened to act that way, fueled by a sense of duty along with the groupthink swell of "everyone feels like this so this is righteous" created by the bubble.


I kinda wish everyone would just tune out and go fishing. The absurdity and obviousness of the games being played is quite easy to see from the outside.
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dogqck
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July 26th, 2018 at 4:57:01 PM permalink
well Face, if you are not happy here, perhaps you should return to your native land.
AZDuffman
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Mission146
July 26th, 2018 at 5:25:11 PM permalink
Quote: TomG

This is a perfect example of changing definitions to fit whatever you want. The data we have shows the exact opposite of what you claim. The more that places like China, Russia, and Europe move away from communism, the more their middle class (more equal outcomes) grows.



Has zero to do with trying to make a more equal outcome in the USA, which is what social programs are mostly about.



Quote:

The more rigid our borders, the more that birth place is the deciding factor in opportunities (completely unequal). That may be a conservative value based on some definitions. But it is once again the exact opposite of the definition you provided. Trump's Border Wall is North America's version of India's Caste system. I commend you for your talent in being able to bend these political definitions and values in whatever way necessary to make absolutely sure that you know you're on the right side and the other side is wrong. It's very American of you.



India's caste system? So you are saying that you favor a borderless world? Because that is how that statement sounds. Trump is POTUS, not PONA or POTW. Other countries do not enter into the equal opportunity as they are not part of the USA. I don't get why you are saying that any other country has to do with conservative vs. liberal. Other countries do not matter, their business and societies are there own.
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AZDuffman
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RogerKint
July 26th, 2018 at 5:27:17 PM permalink
Quote: VCUSkyhawk

Well it only takes a small percentage of the population to appear large. So lets start off with the 65 Million people that voted for Hillary Clinton. If say only 15% are in the extreme (I am not saying that is the case just a small example) then that is almost 10 million loons in this country. That is scary. Same for the right.

I use this same example when talking to some of my ultra conservative friends about Islam. There are 1.6 Billion (as of 2010) Muslims in the world, take a small fraction that are violent extremist, lets say .1% (again not saying that is the figure) and that is a scary amount of violent crazy people.

In both of these cases it tends to make the larger group look bad.



Islam itself is radical and if you look at islamic societies, you will find a violent, intolerant sewer. Islam cannot exist side by side with other religions. Using it is a bad example.
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AZDuffman
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July 26th, 2018 at 5:34:14 PM permalink
Quote: Mission146

I want to say that any doctor has a fundamental duty to explain to his/her patient the dangers of a medical procedure. I should certainly like to think that is being done anywhere an abortion is performed.

I don't know about emotional damage. The abortion doctor is unlikely to also be a psychologist or psychiatrist.



You might like to think it is being explained, but I doubt the abortion mills are doing so. Feminists fight this kind of counseling. As to the emotional damage, if the doctor is trained in performing abortions it is a simple thing to add this kind of training to the training.

Quote:

I Googled what you said, it's mostly just people wearing T-Shirts that say, "I had an abortion." When you said, "Celebrate," I was hoping there would be some libations involved. Wearing a T-Shirt isn't much of a celebration. I'm wearing a, "Rural King," T-Shirt right now, am I celebrating the store?



If you paid for the T then yes, you are celebrating the store. If you brag about having had an abortion, I would call that celebrating it. Choose another word other than "celebrating" if you wish, they are clearly proud of the fact and happy with it. You seem to have take the view that NOW and feminists are trying to sell, that they are "pro-choice." I say it again, tell them your choice is for life, see what their reaction is. Limbaugh explains it best when he says abortion is their "sacrament." Almost some kind of initiation ritual to the sisterhood. This is a hard fact of life, but a fact nonetheless.
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