2018 Tax Bill Impact on a Middle Class Family

Quote: AZDuffman

Argue it all you want, you can not deny the math.

Don't confuse "mean" and "median." Look at both and learn how to read what is really happening.

The higher the mean from the median means a few high earners are pulling things way up.
OTOH, if the mean is lower than the median, there are probably a lot of earners with $0 in earnings.

Is that a typo?

Who is earning nothing? Wouldnt that be unemployed? They arent being counted i hope

That would mean the average american makes way less

Quote: darkoz

Is that a typo?

Who is earning nothing? Wouldnt that be unemployed? They arent being counted i hope

That would mean the average american makes way less

No, it is not a typo. It is an example of how counting works and using numbers. Say you take the adult population of a town and then take all reported income. Some people, housewives usually, are not working. So it skews the number down. Many people work just PT by choice, skews things down.

Median income in 2014 appears to be about $51,000. Or about $25 per hour. I buy this because most low skill jobs are pretty near half that level. Jumping to twice entry level pay when you get some skills happens over a few years of work.

Quote: TigerWu

Oh, baloney... Not every job can pay that. It has nothing to do with "bad choices."

I have two degrees, multiple globally recognized certifications in my industry, and almost a decade of experience, and I barely make $20/hr. That's about average for someone in my position in my industry. Naturally it would go up a little with more experience or maybe in a HCOL area, but that's just what my career pays at my level, almost anywhere in the world.

My 17 year old nephew makes $16 an hour working at a cvs part time.
He lives in Ma,I was making $20 per hour doing construction work in 1983,so I'm not sure what field you work in or where you live but I think you are underpaid.

Quote: Hunterhill

My 17 year old nephew makes $16 an hour working at a cvs part time.
He lives in Ma,I was making $20 per hour doing construction work in 1983,so I'm not sure what field you work in or where you live but I think you are underpaid.

I would have guessed construction work was also paying $20/hour..

Quote:

Construction Laborers. The average hourly pay for general construction workers as of 2011, according to the Bureau of Labor Statistics (BLS), was $16.43, and the average annual income was $34,170. The very highest pay for construction laborers was reported in Hawaii, where these workers averaged $51,320 per year.

Quote: Paradigm

Ahhh...$22+/hour is the average wage these days (Google May 2018 Jobs Reoprt).

I'm OK with $22/hour as an average wage for American workers, as you suggest. But, please run the numbers for MEDIAN earnings.

I don't have median wage data for May 2018, but here is Average and Median wage info from the Social Security Administration (which tracks earnings because of our contributions to the system).

Average 2016	Amount
Annual	$46,640.94
Per Hour	$23.32

So, the $22 average hourly wage you reported is purty durn close to the wage I use. But, the Average earnings amount is significantly skewed in such a way as to ignore what's happening with the data, isn't it? The 2016 Median wage is only about two-thirds that of the average. So, fat cats -- on a worker-by-worker basis -- are getting a LOT more in earnings.

Median 2016	Amount
Annual	$30,533.31
Per Hour	$15.27

Furthermore, the ratio of Median earnings to Average earnings has been steadily falling from 1991 (when the Average Wage Index was modified) to 2016. (My link shows it in a very instructive graph.) In 1991 the ratio of Median wage to Average wage was about 72 percent. Since then, the ratio of Median earnings to Average earnings has been consistently falling to its current 65 percent. So, IMHO, the data suggest the squeeze is on for the Little People, while folks at higher incomes consistently do better and better.

FWIW, I don't personally have a dog in this fight, as I'm sorta in the middle, and only squeezed a small amount. But, I know in the last several years before I retired from full-time work (during the Great Recession) I found myself having to take a lower salary than previously when I was forced to change my employment. As far as I can see, the data seem to suggest it's only getting worse for the bottom half of American workers.

So, please re-do your numbers for the Median-salaried worker. Also, how about an estimate of what happens when the worker-based tax cuts expire. What will happen to Median- and Average-worker taxes then, hmm? Tax breaks for the Little People expire once Congress can blame it on previous congressional sessions. I expect that picture will look a lot more ugly.

Quote: Paradigm

I am not sure what to say Tiger...the Jobs Report says you make 10% less than the average American worker...those are the facts.

The Jobs Report figure you cite may or may not be corrected for the severe inequity in pay that exists now.
80/20, 90/10, 95/5, etc are increasingly skewed by that top 1% .1%, and .01%. Depends on median vs. mean, some other considerations.

I also think Tiger is only talking about hourly pay before deductions. I suspect his employer accounts for his total compensation including PCB, which is probably about 30% higher.

So you two might be comparing apples and oranges here.

IDK which you're using, perhaps you would tell us.

Throughout the Southeastern US, all right-to-work states, $20/hr would be well above average hourly, fwiw. It's $12-13/hr here for semi-skilled, $16-18 for skilled trades, lots of unskilled/minwage jobs as well.

I dropped said family's income to $60K...is that middle class for everyone?

2017 Federal Taxes: $1736
2018 Federal Taxes: Refundable Credit of $58

So they pay zero federal income taxes under the new Tax Bill and have $150/month more after tax income having received a 103% reduction in their federal income tax liability.

"Hey middle class, your federal income taxes just went to zero, but it sucks for you because since you were only paying $1.25/day per person, it doesn't really mean much"...that is essentially the message from the DarkOz.

I did find you a 2012 Toyota Corolla with 85K miles on it and no accidents for $7999 which is about what $150 buys you on a 60 month loan at 3%. If your credit sucks, I guess you can just save the tax dollars for the next 50 months and buy it for cash. Either way you have an extra $150 per month, which is a lot when you are trying to make ends meet on $60K/year.

Quote: Paradigm

I dropped said family's income to $60K...is that middle class for everyone?

2017 Federal Taxes: $1736
2018 Federal Taxes: Refundable Credit of $58

A single person who earns $60,000 and claims a standard deduction and nothing else would have a tax liability of $6,500. It seems these new tax laws are little more than a subsidy for people who make babies. Isn't that a perfect example of something the R side usually doesn't like about the D side. Or am I missing something with these calculations?

Said Single saves $137/month under the new Tax Bill....next?

Here is another example for you:

Married Couple, 2 Kids
W-2 Income of $1,000,000
California Resident (pick any high income tax state)
$1,000,000 Interest only 4% mortgage, for the mathematically challenged, that is a $40K mortgage interest deduction.
Real Estate Taxes of $15,000.

This is wealthy America, right? This is the top 1% of America, right?

2017 Federal Tax Liability: $297,284
2018 Federal Tax Liability: $297,629

Yep, the Tax Bill was a pure give away to the top 1%...except this guy got nothing. I don't think he necessarily deserves a break, I am simply pointing out his tax bill doesn't material change under the new law.

He is also paying an additional $95K in State Income Taxes (CA in this case), so combined he pays tax of 39%+ on every dollar he makes and 49% in additional fed/CA tax on every additional dollar of income beyond his $1M. I am not saying right or wrong here, but this is the reality of the 2018 Tax Bill.

The only way you got a tax break and were in the top 1% of Americans is if you owned a pass through business with employees. Just like the Tax Bill attempts to stimulate C Corporations to invest, hire more employees and give out raises to employees and shareholders to spend in the economy, the Tax Bill also gave smaller business owners an incentive to expand and grow by reducing their tax burden. Biggest limiters on this flow through deduction is wages and not being in the professions or some other targeted businesses (medicine, law, accounting, consulting, brokers, banking, insurance and the list goes on). Those industries get treated like the $1M employee above and don't get much in the way of a tax break.

Yet somehow, even with these individual counterexamples, the top 1% will get 83% of the benefits of the tax bill.

Quote: Paradigm

Actually they are more likely to spend that $187 buying a replacement vehicle. $187/month over 60 months buys a 2013 Toyota Corolla with less than 50K miles on it. Wow those 4 cans of soda each day really add up (who buys cans of soda for a $1 a piece anyway...its like $4 a 12 pack!)

“Hey we can afford a new car and get rid of that 2001 Ford Focus with 165,000 miles on it because of the Tax Bill”...my guess is that will be perceived as “doing better” by a lot of blue collar voters come 2020...and they don’t care about deficits and the National Debt...all they know is they got a new car with their tax savings.

In Winn Dixie, their generic soda is like .50 a can. 12 ounce a can, 24 ounces altogether Three kids can drink just over 7 ounces each, so you can buy two 12 ounce cans for $1. A gas station sells R.C Cola in a 24 ounce bottle for less than a dollar so ounce again, three kids can get a little over 7 ounces on the R.C Cola. :)

Quote: beachbumbabs

The Jobs Report figure you cite may or may not be corrected for the severe inequity in pay that exists now.
80/20, 90/10, 95/5, etc are increasingly skewed by that top 1% .1%, and .01%. Depends on median vs. mean, some other considerations.

I also think Tiger is only talking about hourly pay before deductions. I suspect his employer accounts for his total compensation including PCB, which is probably about 30% higher.

So you two might be comparing apples and oranges here.

IDK which you're using, perhaps you would tell us.

Throughout the Southeastern US, all right-to-work states, $20/hr would be well above average hourly, fwiw. It's $12-13/hr here for semi-skilled, $16-18 for skilled trades, lots of unskilled/minwage jobs as well.

Up here in PA it is the same way. When I talked about starting my business I mentioned that I was having a hard time finding someone to be my number 2. I think I put out the number of $16 hr and some people on here were like wtf, that is way too low. I tried to explain that around here $16 is the normal wage. I ended up paying $18 and got a really good person. More than half the people that I know make less than that. It is hard to get a job over $20 hr unless it is a skilled position or if you work yourself up into a higher level position. I have only made over $20 an hour once in my life and that was when I had a 9 month management job with the census.

Quote: Paradigm

Here is another example for you:

Married Couple, 2 Kids
W-2 Income of $1,000,000
California Resident (pick any high income tax state)
$1,000,000 Interest only 4% mortgage, for the mathematically challenged, that is a $40K mortgage interest deduction.
Real Estate Taxes of $15,000.

This is wealthy America, right? This is the top 1% of America, right?

2017 Federal Tax Liability: $297,284
2018 Federal Tax Liability: $297,629

Yep, the Tax Bill was a pure give away to the top 1%...except this guy got nothing. I don't think he necessarily deserves a break, I am simply pointing out his tax bill doesn't material change under the new law.

He is also paying an additional $95K in State Income Taxes (CA in this case), so combined he pays tax of 39%+ on every dollar he makes and 49% in additional fed/CA tax on every additional dollar of income beyond his $1M. I am not saying right or wrong here, but this is the reality of the 2018 Tax Bill.

The only way you got a tax break and were in the top 1% of Americans is if you owned a pass through business with employees. Just like the Tax Bill attempts to stimulate C Corporations to invest, hire more employees and give out raises to employees and shareholders to spend in the economy, the Tax Bill also gave smaller business owners an incentive to expand and grow by reducing their tax burden. Biggest limiters on this flow through deduction is wages and not being in the professions or some other targeted businesses (medicine, law, accounting, consulting, brokers, banking, insurance and the list goes on). Those industries get treated like the $1M employee above and don't get much in the way of a tax break.

I might be ignorant on the subject but from what I heard it isn't all about the base rate. Havent the deductions drastically changed? For a rec gambler the huge standard deduction is going to be a problem. If I get a 4k w2g I am going to pay taxes on that money because I don't have enough deductions to offset the loss.

Quote: GWAE

Up here in PA it is the same way. When I talked about starting my business I mentioned that I was having a hard time finding someone to be my number 2. I think I put out the number of $16 hr and some people on here were like wtf, that is way too low. I tried to explain that around here $16 is the normal wage. I ended up paying $18 and got a really good person. More than half the people that I know make less than that. It is hard to get a job over $20 hr unless it is a skilled position or if you work yourself up into a higher level position. I have only made over $20 an hour once in my life and that was when I had a 9 month management job with the census.

Thank you

Thats what i have been trying to point out

In nyc on of the most expensive places to live its difficult to find average jobs over $18 an hour. You have to be highly specialized

Im guessing its that way amongst most of the country. The median wage of $22 an hour is being offset by the fewer high paid salaries

Quote: Paradigm

I am weary of the mis-information that is spewed about how the 2018 Tax Bill is a "give away to the rich" and that Middle Class America gets very little tax relief. So I ran a tax projection for 2017 and 2018 on the software I use in my CPA Practice. Here are the facts I used:

1) Married Couple with two kids under 17.
2) One Spouse makes $45K and the other works 2/3's time and makes $30K (this spouse is off work by the time the kids get home from school)
3) They rent a small home/apartment (if they owed a $200,000 home owing $180K in a mortgage at 4%, the answer didn't change)

I think this is Middle America, but I am open to changing the facts set once or twice if members want to see how changed facts impact the results. Here are the 2017 and 2018 federal tax liabilities for this example family:

2017 Federal Tax Liability: $3982
2018 Federal Tax Liability with December's Tax Bill Impact: $1742

That is a federal tax decrease of 56%+! It means an extra $187/month in the hands of a family that previously brought home $5,366 in net after tax monthly income. It is an instant 3.5% increase in after tax take home pay...considering they were only paying 5.3% of their income in federal taxes to begin with, that is huge.

The truth is that Middle America did get a significant tax reduction as a result of the December Tax Legislation.

Now factor in the loss of being able to deduct the full value of state and local income and property taxes. Many people in NY pay far more in property tax alone than the law caps at.

Quote: Dalex64

Yet somehow, even with these individual counterexamples, the top 1% will get 83% of the benefits of the tax bill.

The above statement tells us nothing. Is this 83% in absolute dollars or 83% of the tax cuts or what? Do the top 1% pay 90% of taxes and only getting 83% of the tax savings gives them less than their pro rata savings amount? Sound bites are always deceiving and just like the MSM, you haven’t provided anything informative with the above statement.

Quote: billryan

Now factor in the loss of being able to deduct the full value of state and local income and property taxes. Many people in NY pay far more in property tax alone than the law caps at.

You seriously think I ran these projections without considering the limitations on state, local & real estate taxes...unbelievable!

Quote: GWAE

....More than half the people that I know make less than that. It is hard to get a job over $20 hr unless it is a skilled position or if you work yourself up into a higher level position. I have only made over $20 an hour once in my life and that was when I had a 9 month management job with the census.

You & Oz are absolutely right...when you don’t have any skills and are getting an entry levek job, you’re not going to make $22/hour. This is why education is a good thing, learning skills that translate into being more valuable to an employer is a good thing...you have got to bring something to the table besides showing up and doing a nominal set of tasks that anyone can learn after one day on the job to make an above average wage.

What business did you start and what skills does your #2 need to have before they could perform in that position?

Quote: Paradigm

You seriously think I ran these projections without considering the limitations on state, local & real estate taxes...unbelievable!

Paradigm, thank you for taking the time to point out the facts and realities of the new tax law.
Unfortunately, lefties never want to debate the facts or the issues since their views are unsupportable on almost every issue.
As usual and as expected they chant the slogan that everything is done to support the top 1% rich fat cats and corporations.
Fortunately, as evidenced by Trump's election, many people are seeing through their smoke and mirrors and kicking the bums out.
After all, most people don't want the US to go the way of Venezuela.
MAGA

It's tough for me to believe that the top any % will get more benefit out of any kind of tax changes. The top earners subsidize the lower / non earners. Sure, they may get a "benefit" by getting their tax burden reduced of what it used to be....but come on, that's like getting mad at someone because they used to donate $2M a year to a charity but now they're only donating $1.5M a year.


Idk what's going on with this $15 vs $22 avg hourly pay nonsense. When I dealt (blackjack / craps) I was getting a fairly consistent $20/hour and that was AFTER taxes being taken out, but before any 401(k) contributions. You don't need any kind of real education, special skills, or anything like that to get a dealing job. Wtf are people doing where the median pay is ~$15/hr?

Quote: wellwellwell

Paradigm, thank you for taking the time to point out the facts and realities of the new tax law.
Unfortunately, lefties never want to debate the facts or the issues since their views are unsupportable on almost every issue.
As usual and as expected they chant the slogan that everything is done to support the top 1% rich fat cats and corporations.
Fortunately, as evidenced by Trump's election, many people are seeing through their smoke and mirrors and kicking the bums out.
After all, most people don't want the US to go the way of Venezuela.
MAGA

Hijack. Let's keep to the numbers debate and discussion and learn something rather than taking divisive political jabs at people. Take this crap (regardless of your stance) to the cesspool of the political threads.

Paradigm started this thread specifically to have a fact-based discussion, and said so in the OP. You need to respect that.

Warning.

Quote: Nathan

In Winn Dixie, their generic soda is like .50 a can. 12 ounce a can, 24 ounces altogether Three kids can drink just over 7 ounces each, so you can buy two 12 ounce cans for $1. A gas station sells R.C Cola in a 24 ounce bottle for less than a dollar so ounce again, three kids can get a little over 7 ounces on the R.C Cola. :)

You need a Wegman's. I buy 64 ounce diet W's in a variety of flavors for 75 cents a bottle. Sounds like you are grossly overpaying for your carbonated beverage.

Quote: RS

It's tough for me to believe that the top any % will get more benefit out of any kind of tax changes. The top earners subsidize the lower / non earners. Sure, they may get a "benefit" by getting their tax burden reduced of what it used to be....but come on, that's like getting mad at someone because they used to donate $2M a year to a charity but now they're only donating $1.5M a year.


Idk what's going on with this $15 vs $22 avg hourly pay nonsense. When I dealt (blackjack / craps) I was getting a fairly consistent $20/hour and that was AFTER taxes being taken out, but before any 401(k) contributions. You don't need any kind of real education, special skills, or anything like that to get a dealing job. Wtf are people doing where the median pay is ~$15/hr?

I wasn't there, and haven't seen your paycheck, but your base wage was, what, around $7/hour? (Most recent I heard was $7.25/hr in LV, and you're talking several years ago?) The rest depended on tips. Asking, not telling you.

So, good that it was that lucrative. To some extent, a dependable amount, but not guaranteed. I think we're mostly talking about untipped compensation.

And I share your wonderment that so many people can/have to survive on so little.

Quote: Paradigm

You & Oz are absolutely right...when you don’t have any skills and are getting an entry levek job, you’re not going to make $22/hour. This is why education is a good thing, learning skills that translate into being more valuable to an employer is a good thing...you have got to bring something to the table besides showing up and doing a nominal set of tasks that anyone can learn after one day on the job to make an above average wage.

What business did you start and what skills does your #2 need to have before they could perform in that position?

I own a medical billing business. My number 2 needed to ha e a 2 year certificate and be have a billing certification that requires a pretty hard exam. It also required 5 years experience, drug test, background check, and management experience. So I wouldn't exactly call it entry level and I dont know a single person in that position making $20. Add in a credentialing certificate and a coding certificate and you might be able to get near $20

Quote: rxwine

I would have guessed construction work was also paying $20/hour..

Not in Las Vegas. I read that the average wage for skilled construction workers on the Raiders stadium being built now is around $40 an hour. They are also working overtime so the workers are getting around the equivalent of $100k a year.

Quote: DRich

Not in Las Vegas. I read that the average wage for skilled construction workers on the Raiders stadium being built now is around $40 an hour. They are also working overtime so the workers are getting around the equivalent of $100k a year.

Construction workers are well paid

I knew one getting $25 an hour --- back in 1988

Quote: GWAE

I own a medical billing business. My number 2 needed to ha e a 2 year certificate and be have a billing certification that requires a pretty hard exam. It also required 5 years experience, drug test, background check, and management experience. So I wouldn't exactly call it entry level and I dont know a single person in that position making $20. Add in a credentialing certificate and a coding certificate and you might be able to get near $20

Agree. I know a parent who asked me if his child should try to learn medical billing, and my answer was a big NO. Very low paying, and low ceiling as well, unless you are entrepreneurial and plan on owning the company. I also think it tends to be a low job satisfaction job as well.

Quote: GWAE

I own a medical billing business. My number 2 needed to ha e a 2 year certificate and be have a billing certification that requires a pretty hard exam. It also required 5 years experience, drug test, background check, and management experience. So I wouldn't exactly call it entry level and I dont know a single person in that position making $20. Add in a credentialing certificate and a coding certificate and you might be able to get near $20

That explains quite a bit of the tidal wave of problems we see in that field.

Quote: GWAE

I own a medical billing business. My number 2 needed to ha e a 2 year certificate and be have a billing certification that requires a pretty hard exam. It also required 5 years experience, drug test, background check, and management experience. So I wouldn't exactly call it entry level and I dont know a single person in that position making $20. Add in a credentialing certificate and a coding certificate and you might be able to get near $20

Agree that is not entry level, would have to agree with sooPoo, sounds like not a great exchange of $$ for skill set.

How do you morph the business to add more value to your clients with the goal of extracting more fees? If it can’t be done, maybe time to morph into new profession...but perhaps ownership of the biz pays a lot more.

Either way, people need to gravitate towards skills that pay more...constant self improvement increasing your value to the marketplace is the key to rising wages & earning potential.

Quote: Paradigm

Agree that is not entry level, would have to agree with sooPoo, sounds like not a great exchange of $$ for skill set.

How do you morph the business to add more value to your clients with the goal of extracting more fees? If it can’t be done, maybe time to morph into new profession...but perhaps ownership of the biz pays a lot more.

Either way, people need to gravitate towards skills that pay more...constant self improvement increasing your value to the marketplace is the key to rising wages & earning potential.

Some people gravitate towards what they enjoy

Others to what their forte is

Quote: darkoz

Some people gravitate towards what they enjoy

Others to what their forte is

You’re right...make your choices and live with the results. If you love what you do and it pays $18/hour, it’s your choice to stick with that lifestyle/outcome.

Quote: Paradigm

You seriously think I ran these projections without considering the limitations on state, local & real estate taxes...unbelievable!

Where is that in your equation? Please show us.

Will do...which example do you want to start with: The $75K Family, $60K Family or the $1M Family?

All projections were run with CA as the resident state (one of the highest state tax environments in the country)...the lower end families aren't itemizing as they don't get over the $12,700 in standard deductions in 2017 or the $24,000 standard deduction in 2018.

If you want to add home ownership into the two lower end families so they have a real estate tax deduction, I have done that already, but they won't be able to qualify for much of a house payment and as a result, their real estate tax deduction is going to be relatively low and combined with their state tax liability, less than the $10K cap.

The $75K family is paying $881 in CA taxes and the $60K family is paying $182 in CA Taxes. I have assumed both will be paid during the year through withholding to give them the benefit of the deduction in the year analyzed. They don't use the state income tax deduction due to the size of their standard deduction.

The main reason the $1M Family is paying the same federal tax in 2017 vs. 2018 is that the lower tax rates in 2018 are offset by the fact that the family is only able to deduct $10K of the $95K in CA Income Taxes and $15,000 in estimated real estate taxes on their $1.5M home (real estate taxes run at about 1% in most of CA).

You're aware I do this for a living, correct? I mean I do make mistakes, but not ones like failing to take into account one of the biggest changes in the Tax Bill in an analysis where the goal is to figure out the impact of the changes on a taxpayer/client.

Fwiw, Paradigm, I do very much appreciate real numbers from you. And billryan, though his join date is 2009, really hasn't been active until the last couple of years, so he and some others here probably DON'T know you're a financial planner (is that the correCT title?). You don't go dropping that into conversations very often.

Quote: Paradigm

Agree that is not entry level, would have to agree with sooPoo, sounds like not a great exchange of $$ for skill set.

How do you morph the business to add more value to your clients with the goal of extracting more fees? If it can’t be done, maybe time to morph into new profession...but perhaps ownership of the biz pays a lot more.

Either way, people need to gravitate towards skills that pay more...constant self improvement increasing your value to the marketplace is the key to rising wages & earning potential.

For a business owner it can be pretty lucrative. Even in this very competitive field. I want to say that I am probably the best in the field out of the people that I have met. I have a very good memory and have most medicare policies memorized which comes in handy. I have no problem working 100 hours in a week and I am good at sales. Anyways, we also have the best pricing structure in this market and I have been snagging clients at a rate of 1 per week over the last 7 weeks which I am proud of. I offer all of my employees commission on an account that they can bring in that will last the life of their employment. I signed 1 this morning that will bring the company $9000 a month in revenue. I offer commission of 4% of our revenue each month so this girl will get a bonus of $360 a month for the life of her employment. She basically gave herself a $2 an hour raise by getting me a meeting with this client so her $16 hr job is now an $18 hour job. I hope she finds me another 10 or 12 groups and I have to pay her 5k a month in bonuses. As for the company, our expenses on a 9k a month client are around $2400 so even at our low rates we are making enough money to be well off. Not sure what the point of any of that was, I just got carried away typing.

Quote: GWAE

For a business owner it can be pretty lucrative. Even in this very competitive field. I want to say that I am probably the best in the field out of the people that I have met. I have a very good memory and have most medicare policies memorized which comes in handy. I have no problem working 100 hours in a week and I am good at sales. Anyways, we also have the best pricing structure in this market and I have been snagging clients at a rate of 1 per week over the last 7 weeks which I am proud of. I offer all of my employees commission on an account that they can bring in that will last the life of their employment. I signed 1 this morning that will bring the company $9000 a month in revenue. I offer commission of 4% of our revenue each month so this girl will get a bonus of $360 a month for the life of her employment. She basically gave herself a $2 an hour raise by getting me a meeting with this client so her $16 hr job is now an $18 hour job. I hope she finds me another 10 or 12 groups and I have to pay her 5k a month in bonuses. As for the company, our expenses on a 9k a month client are around $2400 so even at our low rates we are making enough money to be well off. Not sure what the point of any of that was, I just got carried away typing.

You should probably just hire zk, guaranteed he’d triple your profits.

Quote: Paradigm

Will do...which example do you want to start with: The $75K Family, $60K Family or the $1M Family?

All projections were run with CA as the resident state (one of the highest state tax environments in the country)...the lower end families aren't itemizing as they don't get over the $12,700 in standard deductions in 2017 or the $24,000 standard deduction in 2018.

If you want to add home ownership into the two lower end families so they have a real estate tax deduction, I have done that already, but they won't be able to qualify for much of a house payment and as a result, their real estate tax deduction is going to be relatively low and combined with their state tax liability, less than the $10K cap.

The $75K family is paying $881 in CA taxes and the $60K family is paying $182 in CA Taxes. I have assumed both will be paid during the year through withholding to give them the benefit of the deduction in the year analyzed. They don't use the state income tax deduction due to the size of their standard deduction.

The main reason the $1M Family is paying the same federal tax in 2017 vs. 2018 is that the lower tax rates in 2018 are offset by the fact that the family is only able to deduct $10K of the $95K in CA Income Taxes and $15,000 in estimated real estate taxes on their $1.5M home (real estate taxes run at about 1% in most of CA).

You're aware I do this for a living, correct? I mean I do make mistakes, but not ones like failing to take into account one of the biggest changes in the Tax Bill in an analysis where the goal is to figure out the impact of the changes on a taxpayer/client.

I've no idea who you are , what you do or how you come up with a middle income family in California that owns a house paying $881 in California taxes. I'm genuinely interested in all three.

I’m getting a small tax break. Probably about 2k more this year.

The corporations are getting huge breaks making the rich even richer.

I think most people know they will benefit from this tax plan, but the issue is that it doesn’t address income inequality which keeps spiraling out of control.

Finally, the tax changes for individuals are not permanent.

It’s saddling the middle class with the debt that this program is creating.

I’m thankful for my $40 a week, it’s better than nothing.

Quote: FinsRule

I’m getting a small tax break. Probably about 2k more this year.

The corporations are getting huge breaks making the rich even richer.

No, it means they are taxed less. Are you of the opinion that a reason or purpose to tax someone who's rich is to make them less rich? We know a result of them being taxed will make them less rich, even though your post implies you think a reason or purpose to taxing them is to make them less rich.


Just because there is inequality doesn't mean it needs to be fixed or that it's a problem. Some types of inequality, yeah, absolutely should be fixed (or should have been fixed), like many have. But I don't see a problem if one person makes $1M/yr and someone else makes $25k/yr.

I don't think the debt is as big of a problem as people think it is, considering our GDP and assets. It's a problem when the ratio is too high (debt-to-GDP or debt-to-assets).

But I think taxes should be lowered for everyone, not just the rich, the middle, or the lower class.

Quote: FinsRule

I’m getting a small tax break. Probably about 2k more this year.

The corporations are getting huge breaks making the rich even richer.

What exactly do corporations have to do with "the rich?"

Do you not want $2,000?

Quote: billryan

I've no idea who you are , what you do or how you come up with a middle income family in California that owns a house paying $881 in California taxes. I'm genuinely interested in all three.

The two middle class income families likely can’t own a home in CA...or not in the parts of CA most people think about. I don’t have them owning a home and taking a mortgage interest or real estate tax deduction in the calculations, but I could change that.

Keep in mind banks typically won’t lend you more than about 35% maybe 40% of gross income to cover you fixed home purchase costs (mtg pymnt, RE taxes, Insueance, etc.), so this is like a $200K home.

But I still am unclear on what you want to “see”. Do you want to know how much the standard deductions are in each example? The resulting taxable income? The child tax credit amounts for the lower income examples? How CA calculates tax on the three families? I mean this is pretty dry and rudimentary stuff...but I can lay each line item out for you if that is what you want. Which one do you want firstt?

To answer BBB, I am a CPA & a CFP and have been in public practice for 30 years running my own tax & financial planning practice for the last 24 years.

Quote: AZDuffman

What exactly do corporations have to do with "the rich?"

Do you not want $2,000?

The rich own almost all of the stock in these corporations. I didn’t think I needed to spell that out.

If you read my whole post, you would have read the line that said I was happy for the 2k.

Quote: FinsRule

The rich own almost all of the stock in these corporations. I didn’t think I needed to spell that out.

What about pension funds, 401k investments, and just regular investors? How do you define "almost all of the stock?"

Really, I think you need a better understanding of who is investing. Most is various institutions, not "the rich." Millionaires are more likely working people that have some kind of a small business than some bunch of idle people sitting around the country club.

Quote:

If you read my whole post, you would have read the line that said I was happy for the 2k.

I did, and it had the tone that you were upset because someone else got a bigger piece of cake than you did.

Quote: GWAE

For a business owner it can be pretty lucrative. Even in this very competitive field. I want to say that I am probably the best in the field out of the people that I have met. I have a very good memory and have most medicare policies memorized which comes in handy. I have no problem working 100 hours in a week and I am good at sales. Anyways, we also have the best pricing structure in this market and I have been snagging clients at a rate of 1 per week over the last 7 weeks which I am proud of. I offer all of my employees commission on an account that they can bring in that will last the life of their employment. I signed 1 this morning that will bring the company $9000 a month in revenue. I offer commission of 4% of our revenue each month so this girl will get a bonus of $360 a month for the life of her employment. She basically gave herself a $2 an hour raise by getting me a meeting with this client so her $16 hr job is now an $18 hour job. I hope she finds me another 10 or 12 groups and I have to pay her 5k a month in bonuses. As for the company, our expenses on a 9k a month client are around $2400 so even at our low rates we are making enough money to be well off. Not sure what the point of any of that was, I just got carried away typing.

Love it all GWAE...get out there take the risk of owning a business, having to meet payroll and other cashflow concerns of a business owner and reap the rewards. Well done!!

Quote: Paradigm

Love it all GWAE...get out there take the risk of owning a business, having to meet payroll and other cashflow concerns of a business owner and reap the rewards. Well done!!

He will know he really made it when the liberals call him selfish and greedy.

GWAE, good work. I knew someone did that biz for a bit. not at all easy.

Quote: AZDuffman

He will know he really made it when the liberals call him selfish and greedy.

GWAE, good work. I knew someone did that biz for a bit. not at all easy.

Again, HIJACK. Keep the politics out of this thread. Warning.

Quote: beachbumbabs

Again, HIJACK. Keep the politics out of this thread. Warning.

Ummmmm.... this ENTIRE thread is centered on politics! The GOP's tax plan opposed by the Dems. The fact most hate it is BECAUSE it is Trump's plan. If it was Obama's plan there would be universal support. The plan is most noteworthy because it is essentially the only major bill Trump has gotten passed! Perhaps this is the MOST political thread we have....

Quote: SOOPOO

Ummmmm.... this ENTIRE thread is centered on politics! The GOP's tax plan opposed by the Dems. The fact most hate it is BECAUSE it is Trump's plan. If it was Obama's plan there would be universal support. The plan is most noteworthy because it is essentially the only major bill Trump has gotten passed! Perhaps this is the MOST political thread we have....

Unbelievable. The sad thing is I actually think you believe that.
So you think that not only would all the Democrats have voted to screw their base but the Republicans would have supported anything Obama proposed.

My goal with the thread was to get some truth out there on the Tax Bill beyond the rhetoric of "the Tax Bill was a give away to the rich" or "the rich got 83% of the benefits" or whatever else the media is putting out there without any support you can verify.

There were benefits for the middle class and pretty sizeable ones in proportion to what they paid in federal taxes prior to the Tax Bill.

I showed that the Millionaire Employee didn't really get much break at all even though his absolute tax bill was 72 times what the $75K family's federal tax bill was while making 13 times as much money.

Everyone has an opinion on what is fair. Some will argue that the rich paying 39% of every dollar they earn is too little, too much or about right. That paying 49% of additional income is OK, not OK or about right. I get it, we all have our opinions shaped by our political leanings.

Heck, we can't even agree on what is a "middle class" wage on this thread...which is a sad statement all on its own.

We can't really get into detailed analysis of the business owner and the tax benefits given to them in the TAx Bill via the new pass through deduction, but needless to say, the Tax Bill did give benefits to businesses of all types that employed other Americans. I think both sides of the political spectrum can agree on that. You really have to get into the weeds to provide an example of this, but what I can say generally is if you are a closely held business in a "good" industry or don't make too much money (defined as taxable income over $315K) than you got a special deduction that can exclude up to 20% of your business income provided you employ enough people (it is actually a wage amount limit). If definitely benefits my clients that own businesses and employ others in those businesses.

What's a good business: one that isn't Medicine, Law, Accounting, Consulting, Insurance, Banking or most financial services, Hedge Fund owners, Brokers or other "service type" businesses described in a catch all other phrase that is too technical for this show. Manufacturing, transportation, construction are all good...just about anything that isn't what you think about as a "professional" service...they all get the break and the professional service providers don't. Those professional service providers tend to be the top 1%'s although I know my share of millionaire roofers and tradesman and they are getting some benefits here as well.

What I can't stand is people putting forth arguments about the fairness of the Tax Bill without a clue about what the numbers are in reality for various segments of America. That was the goal of the thread...don't know if it is 100% political or not. But at least we should be discussing tax realities as opposed to the crap information the Media is feeding both sides of the debate. I can tell you without a doubt the mass media always gets tax and financial topics/facts incorrect. They can't help themselves, they are clueless on these matters and can't even interpret reports from the GAO or others properly.

You can confirm this by reading any media report on your specialty. Just ask BBB if the media gets anywhere close to the truth on Air Traffic control matters. I bet you a lot in your area of expertise that when you hear a report on your favorite news source, they just don't quite have it right. So know that about every story you hear...it may be close, but likely it isn't really what the truth or hard facts would tell you if you were an expert in the field and knew the whole truth.

Time to watch some NHL...gotta run.