Enough is Enough
Quote: BozWill never matter because nothing is ever enough for the left. Name something, anything most people agree on, it is never enough to the far left.
Pick any issue, give them an inch and they want more. Accept or be called a racist.
Precisely my problem with some people on the Alt-Left, yes. You will never succeed with a Them & Us mentality, at anything. Personal relationships, politics, it doesn't matter. If you want to start discourse with anyone, then you have to first determine and acknowledge what you agree on, then you have to determine what common goals you have. Only then do you deal with disagreements.
Now, if you have diametrically opposed goals, really not much you can do with that person on certain issues. You would just stick to the similar goals you have and discuss how those could be effectuated.
When it comes to the Confederate States, one thing that those states did support was a limited Central Government. They wanted individual states and/or municipalities to have a greater degree of autonomy. Those same states, at least generally more than many others, also tend to lean Republican. Republicans generally favor a more limited Central Government. Thus, it makes sense that these states would look up to prominent historical figures, which they are, who advocated in favor of a more limited central Government.
Do some people support the Stars & Bars or these statues because they are racists, yes, some do for just that reason. For most, though, these historical figures and symbols are just representative of the history of the area, which no PC-Committee Member can rewrite, no matter how much he/she would like to.
But you have no problem with the Antifa group busing paid protesters to Va?Quote: terapinedDoesn't matter
Its up to the locals
I live in FL
Who am I to say what statues stay up or get torn down in a city a thousand miles from me
Don't want the statue in Charlottesville to come down
Move to Charlottesville, register to vote, work hard to get elected council members that agree with you
Better yet, run for city council yourself after moving there
Quote: petroglyphBut you have no problem with the Antifa group busing paid protesters to Va?
Yea, right. Its almost impossible to find people willing to protest against the KKK or Nazis. (sarcasm)
What is this paid BS?
I've been to a lot of protests.
I have even been accused of being paid. Had the other side ask me how much scratch I was making.
ROTFL
Just to set the record straight, I've never been paid to protest
How have we gotten to this ridiculous state. We are living in a twilight zone. We should boycott Coors beer because it was started by Adolph Coors. Do not order eggs benedict either.
Quote: AceCrAAckersA guy named Robert Lee has been removed as an announcer from a Virginia football game.
How have we gotten to this ridiculous state. We are living in a twilight zone. We should boycott Coors beer because it was started by Adolph Coors. Do not order eggs benedict either.
Just saw the Robert Lee ESPN thing a few minutes ago, too.
It's as if everyone was fine with this stuff just a short while ago, then suddenly a bunch of people jump on the bandwagon and are offended by this stuff. Oh, wait....
Quote: AceCrAAckersA guy named Robert Lee has been removed as an announcer from a Virginia football game.
How have we gotten to this ridiculous state. We are living in a twilight zone. We should boycott Coors beer because it was started by Adolph Coors. Do not order eggs benedict either.
"Was removed"
Ya'll are getting tricked by your own fake news.
He backed out of announcing that night by his own decision.
Quote: gamerfreak"Was removed"
Ya'll are getting tricked by your own fake news.
He backed out of announcing that night by his own decision.
From what I can gather, it looks like ESPN offered him to switch games if he wanted, and he did.
So you agree fake news exists?
Quote: RSSo you agree fake news exists?
Of course it exists. I just don't think it's a problem specifically with left or right biased sources, they're both guilty of it.
They were not imported as slaves they were importd for marriage and farm land but upon arrival declared quadroons and sold at auction.Quote: billryan"White women from Scandinavia and their white children were sold as slaves. Slave traders would bring the women to the USA with promises of farmland then administratively declare them to be quadroons and earn money by selling them."
While that may have happened, I doubt it was a thriving business. The US outlawed the import of slaves long before the Civil War.
The difference between a Person of Interest and a Suspect depends on the poor guy being in custody or not.
This MultiCultural nation stuff will eventually end once the numbers get sufficiently changed.
Quote: RSIt's as if everyone was fine with this stuff just a short while ago, then suddenly a bunch of people jump on the bandwagon and are offended by this stuff. Oh, wait....
You could put up a statue of Hitler, and a certain percentage of people wouldn't know who it was (especially in his civilian attire). Most people probably can't name the current Speaker of the House.
Doesn't mean we shouldn't care about either of those things.
If you walk around half the day with a "kick me" sign on your back, doesn't mean you have to like it and keep it when you find out..
Quote: FleaStiffBlacks want the statues removed so they can eventually put up statues to Comrade King and his ilk. Blacks want black teacherrs, black judges and black history. What was that college where the blacks demanded a white-absence day so blacks could enjoy their racial identity?
The difference between a Person of Interest and a Suspect depends on the poor guy being in custody or not.
This MultiCultural nation stuff will eventually end once the numbers get sufficiently changed.
Better to remain silent and be thought a fool than to speak out and remove all doubt.
Quote: FleaStiffThey were not imported as slaves they were importd for marriage and farm land but upon arrival declared quadroons and sold at auction.
Your point being?
We tend to judge history by present standards. The practice of bringing slaves to the America's for sale by the big merchants, [and large slave ships] in "The Atlantic slave trade" were religiously acceptable. Slavery was around for thousands of years by all cultures prior to war of Northern aggression.Quote: billryanYour point being?
Blaming slave owners for slavery is like trying to stop drug smuggling by blaming the user. Try looking at who were the big slave merchants. Who were the slave cartels?
Quote: billryanYour point being?
I think his point was explaining how they were able to import slaves even though it was outlawed at that time.
Many in the South felt the North had inordinate power in the Federal government. Despite the wealthy Southern Planter Class, the rapidly industrializing North was far wealthier.
Once the Federal government tried to say what newly formed states would be free or slave, the die was cast.
The South viewed the Federal government as Northern controlled and against their interests
They viewed the Constitution as a compact that can be broken. If the colonies can revolt against England, why can't states revolt and cecede from the Union.
The overwelmingly majority of battles happened in the South. Many Confederates enlisted to protect their homeland first. Many Union soldiers enlisted for adventure and love of country.
Slavery was the biggest evil perpetrated by our nation
However, at that time slavery existed in some form on every continent including Africa. It was far from unique to America.
At the end of the war we wanted to quickly heal the wounds and be one nation again. We didn't think punishing the South would be at all productive.
Actually the North spent considerable money rebuilding the South.
Now, all the trouble caused by Confederate Statues.
I understand how some people view them as there heritage. Likewise others view them as symbols of oppression.Recent events have shown it to be a lightning rod for both sides.
I have no problem with Confederate Statues in museums, private property, cemeteries and Civil War battle fields. But maybe it is time to remove them from puplic spaces.Like I wrote earlier different people view the same statues differently.
As a side note ESPN has reassigned a broadcaster because his name is Robert Lee he is Asian this is one of the silliest things in the news.....
https://www.washingtonpost.com/news/early-lead/wp/2017/08/23/espns-robert-lee-decision-shows-its-the-worldwide-leader-in-silliness/?utm_term=.d33ae59044a8
"That's the night before the clash happened. The Antifa people didn't show up Friday night, they showed up Saturday. They came there to do battle. They showed up with helmets, body armor, clubs... They showed up with ballons filled with urine." bolding mine
"The media is not covering it. They're only focused on making neo-Nazis and white supremacists out to be Trump supporters."
The Antifa people showed up with balloons filled with urine to throw at people. How would you like a balloon full of piss thrown on you? The group that Terapined is a member of, "BLM", is also a member of Antifa. NC senator compares BLM with white supremacists. http://www.theroot.com/state-senator-in-n-c-calls-black-lives-matter-a-viole-1797876506
Problem with that statement is it gives moral equivalency to both sides.
He needed to lean harder on the Nazis and KKK.
Funny how Trump was a very public figure for well over 30 years. Suddenly upon election at the age of 70+ he has become a racist. If he is so anti-immigrant why did he marry two of them?
Quote: dave12038457What the media has hung its hat on is when Trump said both sides were to blame, Which they were.
.
As I recall, not many on the right were bothered that Obama's statements were parsed for every possible derogatory meaning.
Although I don't think there is a true equivalency given Trump's easy penchant for bombast, even if we go with "turn about is fair play" few on the left feel there is any exceptional persecution going on, IMO. Except that this President rarely passes up on the opportunity to return all the sniping and continue it almost daily. He may even relish it, AFAICT.
Quote: FleaStiffBlacks want the statues removed so they can eventually put up statues to Comrade King and his ilk. Blacks want black teacherrs, black judges and black history. What was that college where the blacks demanded a white-absence day so blacks could enjoy their racial identity?
As a Caucasian, I support a free day off 100%. African-Americans, Native-Americans, Jewish-Americans, Islam, Buddhists, Sikhs, Rastafari...I don't care. You want to give me a free day off school (when I was at University, anyway) I'll take it.
Quote: Mission146As a Caucasian, I support a free day off 100%. African-Americans, Native-Americans, Jewish-Americans, Islam, Buddhists, Sikhs, Rastafari...I don't care. You want to give me a free day off school (when I was at University, anyway) I'll take it.
Next they'll be complaining they have to go to school/work an extra day and something about white privilege.
No one should get a day off for the color of their skin or religious beliefs.
Sounds like those black people who want a white-absence day would like segregation. Why limit your "ethnic pride day BS" to one day when you can have it everyday?
Quote: dave12038457The origin of The Civil War is a rather sticky affair.
Many in the South felt the North had inordinate power in the Federal government. Despite the wealthy Southern Planter Class, the rapidly industrializing North was far wealthier.
Once the Federal government tried to say what newly formed states would be free or slave, the die was cast.
The South viewed the Federal government as Northern controlled and against their interests
They viewed the Constitution as a compact that can be broken. If the colonies can revolt against England, why can't states revolt and cecede from the Union.
The overwelmingly majority of battles happened in the South. Many Confederates enlisted to protect their homeland first. Many Union soldiers enlisted for adventure and love of country.
Slavery was the biggest evil perpetrated by our nation
However, at that time slavery existed in some form on every continent including Africa. It was far from unique to America.
At the end of the war we wanted to quickly heal the wounds and be one nation again. We didn't think punishing the South would be at all productive.
Actually the North spent considerable money rebuilding the South.
Now, all the trouble caused by Confederate Statues.
I understand how some people view them as there heritage. Likewise others view them as symbols of oppression.Recent events have shown it to be a lightning rod for both sides.
I have no problem with Confederate Statues in museums, private property, cemeteries and Civil War battle fields. But maybe it is time to remove them from puplic spaces.Like I wrote earlier different people view the same statues differently.
As a side note ESPN has reassigned a broadcaster because his name is Robert Lee he is Asian this is one of the silliest things in the news.....
https://www.washingtonpost.com/news/early-lead/wp/2017/08/23/espns-robert-lee-decision-shows-its-the-worldwide-leader-in-silliness/?utm_term=.d33ae59044a8
Slavery was illegal in Europe long before our Civil War. Nor was it practiced in South America, or Australia. The US was the only supposed Christian country where it existed.
I mean, I don't really have a political opinion on this particular matter, I was just making a joke that I'd be happy with a day off school for any reason.
Quote: Mission146RS,
I mean, I don't really have a political opinion on this particular matter, I was just making a joke that I'd be happy with a day off school for any reason.
Oh yes I figured as much. I think I meant to REPLY not QUOTE. It wasn't really directed at you.
Nuff Said!
We can keep talking about this nonsense.
The school such as Mississippi Rebels should change their name. Rebels were confederate soldiers. Chicago Bears should be changed because we associate Russia with bears and we are all patriotic Americans here. Cincinnati Reds should change their name. We all know reds are code word for communist.
Miami Hurricanes should change their name also. Hurricanes are as bad as famines, floods, and pestilence. LA Kings are sexist and monarchist. We are a republic.
Where I live, a young barber named Andre was shot dead. I knew him and he would go to Mondawmin Mall once a month and give free haircuts to children who couldn't afford it. He died the same week that Freddy Grey died. It was a black on black on crime as most crimes are in Baltimore. There were no protest or outrage at his senseless death. The media did not cover Andre's death but we all heard about Grey's death.
Media is not covering black on black crimes. The bias in the media is shameful. They do not report the news and they represent their editorial as though it was news, I have not heard any voice of reason in the media.
If there are any monuments glorifying slavery, I am all for removing them and destroying them. Confederate monuments does not equal pro slavery monuments.
The Hunley was a small eight man submarine, and is believed to be the first to sink a battleship. It disappeared after sinking a Union ship and for years it was believed the sub was destroyed in the explosion. Its" torpedo" was not self propelled so the crew had to go right up to the battleship and pretty much ram it with a keg filled with 140 pounds of gunpowder.
When it was discovered in the 1990s, it was a real puzzle as when it was raised, all the crew was sitting at their battle stations, with no sign of any attempt to escape or of panic.
The Hundley sailed three times. On its initial sailing, the crew all died. After it was raised, a second crew, including the inventor attempted to sail it down the river into the bay and all perished. All indications are these eight men of the third crew knew they were on a one way mission when they set off.
Quote: petroglyphTime to dispose of any Jefferson memorabilia. https://www.campusreform.org/?ID=9630
http://www.nj.com/atlantic/index.ssf/2017/08/richard_stockton_bust_temporarily_removed_from_uni.html
Anyone who doesn't think George Washington isn't next on the hit list is crazy. As I have said many times, the most intolerant people on Earth are far left Liberals. Nothing is ever enough for them and you either think like they do or you are a racist. There is no middle ground with them.
Quote: Bozhttp://www.nj.com/atlantic/index.ssf/2017/08/richard_stockton_bust_temporarily_removed_from_uni.html
Anyone who doesn't think George Washington isn't next on the hit list is crazy. As I have said many times, the most intolerant people on Earth are far left Liberals. Nothing is ever enough for them and you either think like they do or you are a racist. There is no middle ground with them.
I certainly hope you both are wrong. One subset of statues was of traitors, erected to intimidate in a previous Jim Crow era. Intent matters. I think they should be moved to private museums.
The other is statues of Founding Fathers, who were products of their times. Jefferson, in particular, wanted to eliminate slavery right then, through language in the Declaration of Independence, but was forced during pragmatic compromise with the southern states to leave it alone.
A lot of this is hysterical backlash towards Trump's obscene rationalizations. He is mentally ill. I hope cooler heads prevail soon.
Quote: beachbumbabsI certainly hope you both are wrong. One subset of statues was of traitors, erected to intimidate in a previous Jim Crow era. Intent matters. I think they should be moved to private museums.
The other is statues of Founding Fathers, who were products of their times. Jefferson, in particular, wanted to eliminate slavery right then, through language in the Declaration of Independence, but was forced during pragmatic compromise with the southern states to leave it alone.
A lot of this is hysterical backlash towards Trump's obscene rationalizations. He is mentally ill. I hope cooler heads prevail soon.
1. Do you honestly believe that there is an outrage because it is a " subset of statues was of traitors?" "[T]hey should be moved to private museums." We should have a private museums dedicate to traitors?
2. Owning slavery was a "product of their times." So a black person should accept them but not a confederate monument. There is a small university in Virginia that is name Washington and Lee. It should be name back to just Washington College. The body of Lee exhumed and reburied in a confederate cemetery. All confederate cemetery to be renamed traitor's cemetery.
Since no one want to say come out and say it I will.
Some whites are afraid to defend parts of American history. The last thing whites want to be is called a racist.
Washington and Jefferson are "Founding Fathers", who were products of their times." Why not come out and say that we embrace the heritage that these men have given us and people who don't like it can take their whining somewhere else.
We all know that only whites are racist so any outrage from the left is justified. Down with slave owners and all monuments and statues of them. Do not veil your racist view by touting "Founding Fathers" nonsense. They owned slave and slavery is wrong. How can you not see this? This is a far left arguments.
When will people have backbone and say enough is enough. Our history is not perfect but I want to preserve it, and learn from it rather than destroy it.
Quote: AceCrAAckers
When will people have backbone and say enough is enough. Our history is not perfect but I want to preserve it, and learn from it rather than destroy it.
Your answer is correct and I award you the 1860's.
My problem with statues of Lee, Jackson, Davis, etc,etc isn't that they owned slaves. It is, rather, that they betrayed their oaths to defend and protect the People of the United States. They lead an armed insurrection and lost, all while costing hundreds of thousands of lives.
A simple question. Had George Washington and our Founding Fathers lost, do you think there would be any debate about what to do with their statues?
Quote: AceCrAAckers
When will people have backbone and say enough is enough. Our history is not perfect but I want to preserve it, and learn from it rather than destroy it.
If you want to learn from it, we definitely need different statues. Try accuracy for one thing. Yeah, all history benefits from accuracy. Anyone claiming the civil war was about one thing would be wrong. Discarding the importance of the slavery issue in it would also be wrong.
If you want to have a backbone worth having don't just defend leaving most of these statues in place. Also, accuracy suggests BBs suggestion of putting them in a museum is not destroying history. I don't think any history should be destroyed no matter how negative. Doesn't mean it all belongs in a public square either.
Quote: rxwineIf you want to learn from it, we definitely need different statues. Try accuracy for one thing. Yeah, all history benefits from accuracy. Anyone claiming the civil war was about one thing would be wrong. Discarding the importance of the slavery issue in it would also be wrong.
If you want to have a backbone worth having don't just defend leaving most of these statues in place. Also, accuracy suggests BBs suggestion of putting them in a museum is not destroying history. I don't think any history should be destroyed no matter how negative. Doesn't mean it all belongs in a public square either.
Your point being?
I believe in free speech. As much as I may disagree with what you say, I support your right to say it.
When did the monuments of confederate soldiers equal pro slavery?
Why does monuments of public figures that own slaves belong in "public square?" Why aren't you open minded and removes all them and put them in a museum.. Don't you know how hurtful it is for some African Americans to be forced to look at them. Removing confederate monuments are a start but it does not go far enough.
Why can't people answer about Washington. Why do people defend this slave master. Some are offended by him as much as they are offended by statues of Robert E. Lee.
When did Jefferson release his slaves?Quote: beachbumbabsThe other is statues of Founding Fathers, who were products of their times. Jefferson, in particular, wanted to eliminate slavery right then
Quote: petroglyphWhen did Jefferson release his slaves?
Probably after he had kids with the females.
Quote: petroglyphWhen did Jefferson release his slaves?
When he was done f'ing them.
Let us return to the days of our wise old forefathers.
Lets throw the statue in a lake. If it sinks, it was innocent.
If it floats, it is evil and must be destroyed.
Fair enough? Shouldn't we be preserving that part of our history?
Quote: AceCrAAckersYour point being?
I believe in free speech. As much as I may disagree with what you say, I support your right to say it.
.
Then you're fine with any statue, no matter what it depicts in your public park.. Don't just say ones you approve of.
That's your concept of free speech, right.
Quote: RS
No one should get a day off for the color of their skin or religious beliefs.
I agree
The USA needs to be more like Vegas
Christmas just another day to put in your 8 hours at work
I'm an atheist, Christmas just another of those absurd religious holidays
Quote: rxwineIf you want to learn from it, we definitely need different statues. Try accuracy for one thing. Yeah, all history benefits from accuracy. Anyone claiming the civil war was about one thing would be wrong. Discarding the importance of the slavery issue in it would also be wrong.
If you want to have a backbone worth having don't just defend leaving most of these statues in place. Also, accuracy suggests BBs suggestion of putting them in a museum is not destroying history. I don't think any history should be destroyed no matter how negative. Doesn't mean it all belongs in a public square either.
I don't know that you can fit the entire history leading up to the Civil War on a plaque, but what I do think is that students could benefit from seeing statues such as these in concurrence with the lessons they get in the classroom. I mean, slavery is wrong, we all get that except for the people who are hardly worth speaking to. So, when we teach the history, we need to teach that slavery was not the only issue, that some Northerners were actually in favor of slavery, that some Southerners were not and that it was not just this great Continental divide where we drew a line and said that side's yours, that side's mine.
When it comes to talking about the causes of the war, all of them need to be investigated. Those would also include the points that the Confederacy did have (generally speaking, smaller Central government) that it could be argued that they had a point. It also needs to be taught that, while obviously wrong, slavery was the status quo at the time.
It really is all about teaching the whole history of it. I don't know how they teach it today, but I came out of the 7th grade thinking that Southerners were in favor of slavery, Northerners were not, Northerners stomped ass, /war. That's not correct history.
Quote: beachbumbabsA lot of this is hysterical backlash towards Trump's obscene rationalizations. He is mentally ill. I hope cooler heads prevail soon.
That's quite a paragraph.
Quote: Mission146I don't know that you can fit the entire history leading up to the Civil War on a plaque, but what I do think is that students could benefit from seeing statues such as these in concurrence with the lessons they get in the classroom. I mean, slavery is wrong, we all get that except for the people who are hardly worth speaking to. So, when we teach the history, we need to teach that slavery was not the only issue, that some Northerners were actually in favor of slavery, that some Southerners were not and that it was not just this great Continental divide where we drew a line and said that side's yours, that side's mine.
When it comes to talking about the causes of the war, all of them need to be investigated. Those would also include the points that the Confederacy did have (generally speaking, smaller Central government) that it could be argued that they had a point. It also needs to be taught that, while obviously wrong, slavery was the status quo at the time.
It really is all about teaching the whole history of it. I don't know how they teach it today, but I came out of the 7th grade thinking that Southerners were in favor of slavery, Northerners were not, Northerners stomped ass, /war. That's not correct history.
What in your last paragraph is incorrect? The South was not only in favor of slavery, but wanted to expand it. The Northern States were against it. They tolerated it in existing states but didn't want it to expand. Was that the only reason for the war? No. Only the most important one. Unless you want to believe that the undeclared war in 'Bloody Kansas" was really cattlemen vs sheepherders".
Quote: billryan
What in your last paragraph is incorrect? The South was not only in favor of slavery, but wanted to expand it. The Northern States were against it. They tolerated it in existing states but didn't want it to expand. Was that the only reason for the war? No. Only the most important one. Unless you want to believe that the undeclared war in 'Bloody Kansas" was really cattlemen vs sheepherders".
I'm talking about just that: over-simplification. The way it was taught to us at an early age, (High School history classes would at least expand upon it a little, college more so) slavery was THE reason, as in the only reason. Furthermore, they also taught us it from a Them and Us standpoint, they literally made it sound like not one single Northerner favored slavery and that not one single Southerner (aside from the slaves themselves) was against slavery. It was good guys and bad guys, total dichotomy, taught like you would explain a superhero movie to someone.
