odiousgambit
odiousgambit 
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LostWages
April 27th, 2017 at 3:17:09 AM permalink
starting a new thread, the quotes are from the "Maximizing Bankroll for Comps" thread.

two quotes in reply to me saying "'Don't play for comps' is advice that has been around for a long time."

Quote: AxelWolf

That would depend on the type of comps, what games you are playing and your financial situation. If you could play a breakeven or close game and earn thousands in comps at a good rate it might be worth it to some, especially if comps can be used in the gift shops.



Quote: RS

It's also not necessarily good advice. I've heard plenty of awful advice in my day. Much advice is interpreted incorrectly, particularly this snippet above about not playing for comps.

OK, I'm going to take this on.

First, neither of you are "wrong" - but I think the expression is generally good advice. Yes, you can say "it depends" and "not necessarily". And I am talking about comps in the usual sense, not freeplay etc. which has clear indisputable value.

Your protests sound pretty defensive though, so what's up? I think most of the time comps are valued too highly in the calculation. In order to get true value, if using it, the comp has to be something you would be doing anyway. Essentially, the comped player is living a certain lifestyle for a certain price, and really needs to ask two questions, "is this what I would be doing if I didn't gamble?" and *if* so "how much would I pay for it if I shopped for best deals anyway?" Not just simply "what does the casino say it is worth?" And the prices in the gift shop? Ouch.

So I'm saying that if the expression makes you defensive, maybe you have questioned some of this yourself.

Certainly it is not a question of whether the comps should be used or not. If an AP is money ahead without figuring on comps, the comps are there as a bonus. If the comps are required in order to say the play is +EV, then I think it's time to question the effort. Maybe the player can ask "what could I sell these comps for if I could sell them?" If that amount takes it to +EV, OK.
the next time Dame Fortune toys with your heart, your soul and your wallet, raise your glass and praise her thus: “Thanks for nothing, you cold-hearted, evil, damnable, nefarious, low-life, malicious monster from Hell!” She is, after all, stone deaf. ... Arnold Snyder
billryan
billryan
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April 27th, 2017 at 3:48:19 AM permalink
Have you read Comp City?
Most of those tricks won't work anymore, but embracing the attitude will help you come up with new ones.
AxelWolf
AxelWolf
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LostWages
April 27th, 2017 at 4:06:51 AM permalink
Quote: odiousgambit

starting a new thread, the quotes are from the "Maximizing Bankroll for Comps" thread.

two quotes in reply to me saying "'Don't play for comps' is advice that has been around for a long time."



Quote: RS

It's also not necessarily good advice. I've heard plenty of awful advice in my day. Much advice is interpreted incorrectly, particularly this snippet above about not playing for comps.

OK, I'm going to take this on.

First, neither of you are "wrong" - but I think the expression is generally good advice. Yes, you can say "it depends" and "not necessarily". And I am talking about comps in the usual sense, not freeplay etc. which has clear indisputable value.

Your protests sound pretty defensive though, so what's up? I think most of the time comps are valued too highly in the calculation. In order to get true value, if using it, the comp has to be something you would be doing anyway. Essentially, the comped player is living a certain lifestyle for a certain price, and really needs to ask two questions, "is this what I would be doing if I didn't gamble?" and *if* so "how much would I pay for it if I shopped for best deals anyway?" Not just simply "what does the casino say it is worth?" And the prices in the gift shop? Ouch.

So I'm saying that if the expression makes you defensive, maybe you have questioned some of this yourself.

Certainly it is not a question of whether the comps should be used or not. If an AP is money ahead without figuring on comps, the comps are there as a bonus. If the comps are required in order to say the play is +EV, then I think it's time to question the effort. Maybe the player can ask "what could I sell these comps for if I could sell them?" If that amount takes it to +EV, OK.

I agree that in general its probably good advice to not play for comps, especially since most of the time it's -EV. I'm sure I have also said you shouldn't be playing for comps. I would never suggest someone who really doesn't know what they are doing play for comps. I would never suggest to anyone that isn't financially secure play for comps. There are people who entice themselves or justify gambling because of the comps. They might lose 1k+ in EV for few free rooms and some food.

Let's say a place was generous and they offered .5 in comps and they ran something like a 20x points promo. I would play that in a heartbeat, even if I had to give up 1%-2% on the game. I might even give up more, depending on the location and what the comps were good for. I would have to ask myself if would I buy the comps at whatever my expected loss is? I certainly would not go hog wild trying to earn a sh*t-ton worth of comps, and I'm not going to play some higher denomination super volatile game.

Most AP's that I know have played just for comps at one time.
♪♪Now you swear and kick and beg us That you're not a gamblin' man Then you find you're back in Vegas With a handle in your hand♪♪ Your black cards can make you money So you hide them when you're able In the land of casinos and money You must put them on the table♪♪ You go back Jack do it again roulette wheels turinin' 'round and 'round♪♪ You go back Jack do it again♪♪
gamerfreak
gamerfreak
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April 27th, 2017 at 6:18:34 AM permalink
It also depends on the value you put on the entertainment of playing in the Casino.

A career AP wouldn't put a value of $0 on the entertainment, since he/she is at work. An AP likely doesn't not put much value towards food/room comps either. But it's a totally different story for someone who wants to hustle some comps and get free/cheap vacations.

I'd gladly pay $150 for a $100 food comp if it means I was able to play for 6 hours and get a free room, but that's a losing proposition for a full time pro.

I haven't read Comp City yet, but I did read frugal gambler 1/2 and thought they were great. Some of it is dated, but it still has good advice and will lead you to places to start looking. You aren't going to find many big opportunities spelled out step by step in the book or a forum anyway.
DRich
DRich
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Boz
April 27th, 2017 at 6:52:59 AM permalink
I play for comps all the time. It is not unusual for me to meet some friends at a bar that has video poker. We sit around and socialize while I play a 97.7% video poker game at $1.25 per hand and I get all my drinks comped. For me that is +EV as I play as slow as possible.
Living longer does not always infer +EV
odiousgambit
odiousgambit 
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April 27th, 2017 at 7:19:55 AM permalink
Quote: DRich

I play for comps all the time. It is not unusual for me to meet some friends at a bar that has video poker. We sit around and socialize while I play a 97.7% video poker game at $1.25 per hand and I get all my drinks comped. For me that is +EV as I play as slow as possible.



This and some of the other responses are in the category of getting something you want to do anyway and paying less.

Also, in no way am I saying you shouldn't take advantage of the comps you get, or angle to get better comps.
the next time Dame Fortune toys with your heart, your soul and your wallet, raise your glass and praise her thus: “Thanks for nothing, you cold-hearted, evil, damnable, nefarious, low-life, malicious monster from Hell!” She is, after all, stone deaf. ... Arnold Snyder
DRich
DRich
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LostWages
April 27th, 2017 at 7:31:18 AM permalink
Quote: odiousgambit

This and some of the other responses are in the category of getting something you want to do anyway and paying less.



I agree, I just hate the statement "Don't play for comps". Maybe the common statement should be "Don't play for comps when your expected loss is greater than the amount you value the comp at".
Living longer does not always infer +EV
WatchMeWin
WatchMeWin
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April 27th, 2017 at 11:27:42 AM permalink
If you are already playing some game in the casino, then ABSOLUTELY try to maximize what they will give you. After all, the casinos dont care about you and how much you lose. However, to say just play for comps is not a good idea and somewhat sleazy. Sure , take advantage where you can on their offerings, but to manipulate the system into getting yourself some dinner, drinks, shows, rooms or whatever sounds like a waste of time and money to me. Put that effort into a real business or work opportunity as opposed to gaming the system.

Ive seen so many people over the years play additional hours on the craps table just to get a 20 comp. They would lose 10x that amount by sticking around, but then justify it by saying they had a free dinner. Its just plain irrational thinking.... and a psychological rationalization to justify their gambling behavior.
'Winners hit n run... Losers stick around'
billryan
billryan
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April 27th, 2017 at 12:02:06 PM permalink
I was playing at a BJ table at the Mirage awhile back when a pitcritter strolled up and asked if anyone wanted tickets to see Danny Ganz. I got two tickets and the dealer said he usually came by at this time as they didn't sell out midweek. Took two tickets and sold them for $80. This was on Thursday, show was dark on Monday. Guess where I played on Tuesday?
Made that play about five times in the six weeks I was there.
Used to joke about comp sucking.
RS
RS
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April 27th, 2017 at 3:30:36 PM permalink
Quote: RS

It's also not necessarily good advice. I've heard plenty of awful advice in my day. Much advice is interpreted incorrectly, particularly this snippet above about not playing for comps.


I wasn't trying to be defensive of it. Just saying it's not necessarily good advice. And it can be interpreted incorrectly. Some people might take it to mean "don't play for free-play" or "don't play for promotions". They think it means just play to have fun and anything else is extra. They view mailers, promotions, etc. all as "extra". They think doing $10k coin in on VP for $1k in FP is stupid because you're "playing for comps".

I don't really play for comps (food, rooms, etc.), but I have on occasion. I know of one place [that everyone probably knows about] where something like $10k coin in per month got you like $300 in food plus $200 in FP, playing a 99.9% game, and you could do it every month. If I lived near the casino [and I liked the food], I'd probably absolutely do that.


There was a potential play about 6-12 months ago where you could get all sorts of stuff for really cheap in -EV. Like Xbox's, playstations, big TV's, and I don't remember what else. Bastards un-gaffed the machine, though. :(
01000101 01110000 01110011 01110100 01100101 01101001 01101110 00100000 01100100 01101001 01100100 01101110 00100111 01110100 00100000 01101011 01101001 01101100 01101100 00100000 01101000 01101001 01101101 01110011 01100101 01101100 01100110 00101110

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