Steve Cyr seems like a cold hearted herk!
Really? Three people you took under your wing committed suicide when they were drowning in gambling debts and other financial woes that you helped cause and you have the audacity to talk about their suicides so casually and nonchalantly? Jerk! He even seriously implies that it is all about business for him and when he actually does stop one of his clients from potentially blowing about $40,000 in winnings by forcing him to make it into a check that he knew couldn't be cashed for about 3 more business days and was actually thanked by the client for not letting him blow his winnings, Cyr said to the reader something like, "If you think my one act of kindness means I am going soft, screw you! "
Quote: IbeatyouracesA harsh reminder that these people are not your friends. They're after every last dollar you own.
Everybody needs to remember that casino hosts are salesmen and they get paid a commission. I was with some friends yesterday and we were talking about Steve and his lovely wife. He has been nothing but nice with me and my wife and we aren't even clients of his.
Quote: NathanReally? Three people you took under your wing committed suicide when they were drowning in gambling debts and other financial woes that you helped cause and you have the audacity to talk about their suicides so casually and nonchalantly? Jerk!
They're all big boys, they know how the game is played.
It's all business, for both host and guest.
He hooks them up with whatever fantasy they want, and they know it's gonna cost them: usually.
Basically he's like a glorified pimp, offering earthly delights to the wealthy punters who stumble into his web.
Wicked world, that sin city.
I enjoyed his book: "Whale Hunt in the Desert."
Oh, and don't just think suicides only happen on his watch: my dad worked in a casino in AC, and he'd tell us fairly often about how somebody offed themselves at the casino.
I hear ya! who needs morals, ethics, integrity, honesty, and compassion.
As long as their demise results in my rise its all good. :)
He does a very good job at what he is paid to do. Every one of his customers knows the score. They are still going to lose when they go to the casino, but they'll get a bit more in rebates when they go with Steve. And they'll have more fun. The casino makes money. Steve makes money. The player is happy. What's wrong with that?
If you're an AP --- you're probably not going to stay with Steve as your host. He's looking for a different sort of clientele. Unless you lose enough on average, you're not worth his time. I see that as a smart business decision on his part.
Quote: rainmanThe its okay because he's just doin his job defense eh! counselor.
I hear ya! who needs morals, ethics, integrity, honesty, and compassion.
As long as their demise results in my rise its all good. :)
It's actually kind of difficult, at this point, to accuse him of not at least being honest.
He gets paid by commission: the more he makes THEM like HIM, the better it is for all concerned.
At the end of the day it is all about customer service and customer satisfaction, and he sells himself and his casino to get it.
He makes them feel special, important, "BIG."
Claiming he "has no soul" implies he is fake.
OK, fair comment, but ask yourself this: when a salesperson in a store smiles and asks "how's your day going?" do you think they really give a damn?
Same same.
Quote: MrV
OK, fair comment, but ask yourself this: when a salesperson in a store smiles and asks "how's your day going?" do you think they really give a damn?
Same same.
it's not the same thing. i don't think a salesperson in a store is my friend but he's not going to ply me with liquor, girls and gifts to strip me of as much money as possible. and if a deal is made then i got something which i believe has value. after the deal is made by this guy the customer goes home with nothing of value. just a huge and sometimes debilitating financial loss. you could say he got the chance to win big but i don't buy it. gambling is a different kind of business. he sells a negative expectation. if i'm sold a car a profit has been made off of me but i also got something useful and something i perceive to have value.
Quote: MrVLook, it doesn't matter whether he really "likes" his clients.
He gets paid by commission: the more he makes THEM like HIM, the better it is for all concerned.
At the end of the day it is all about customer satisfaction, and he sells himself and his casino to get it.
Claiming he "has no soul" implies he is fake.
OK, fair comment, but ask yourself this: when a salesperson in a store smiles and asks "how's your day going?" do you thing they really give a damn?
Same same.
No sir! not even close to the same thing.
When the sales guy at Costco talks you into the 80inch ultra 4k which was above your means that sucks bummer for you,
but that salesman and you are done he isnt calling you and sending limo's full of hookers to take you to the store so he can talk you into buying another and the financial damage likely wont cause you to jump off a cliff.
Cyr will plot and scheme against you, he will solicit you ,He will see to it all your addictions get used against you
and yes he will even give you a limo ride to the cliff. Cyr is well aware of the damage he causes in peoples
lives do to their addictions and he does not care. He's just another crack dealer. There are labels psychologists use for
people like him. He stated being fired buy all the other casino's he worked for. A big earner like him?
how could that be? I would guess they just couldn't stomach him anymore.
They'd gamble with or without his involvement.
He gives them a lot of free, neat stuff and experiences which make them feel special.
Nothing in this world comes for free.
I agree he preys upon those who are addicted, but so what?
It's not illegal.
As for whether it is immoral: hey, when you're in Las Vegas, you're not in Kansas anymore.
Sin City, baby.
Quote: MrVHis clients are gamblers.
They'd gamble with or without his involvement.
He gives them a lot of free, neat stuff and experiences which make them feel special.
Nothing in this world comes for free.
I agree he preys upon those who are addicted, but so what?
It's not illegal.
As for whether it is immoral: hey, when you're in Las Vegas, you're not in Kansas anymore.
Sin City, baby.
True enough. I like freedom, and people are free to dance with the devil if they want.
I just have issues when people tell me that the devil is a pretty girl.
He is absolutely right that if you're a whale it pays to spread your business around, to get the casinos to compete for your business. In poaching players, he is getting them better deals. That is a service to the players.
Yes, he seems to have a cavalier attitude about the destruction gambling can cause. However, what can he do about it? Compulsive gamblers need to be held accountable for their own play and not seek to blame it on greedy casinos and hosts.
I viewed that article as a refreshingly honest and informative one. My compliments to Michael Kaplan. In fact, I think I'll write him and tell him so.
Not that I by any means am a whale but I used to play at a level that got me personal hosts. They pretended to like me, always keeping up to date with my family and my hobbies. However, I eventually got booted from one casino after another. After this wave of being cut off from all comps, I would still call some hosts I liked from time to time, just to say "hello," if I was on their property for some non-gambling reason. I generally hit their voicemail, to which I left a message. The number of times they bothered to call back -- zero. Sometimes these hosts changed casinos and would suddenly be nice to me again, conveniently forgetting my calls they never returned before.
About Steve Cyr, once I was organizing a bachelor party and needed to hire a stripper or two. Somebody recommend I call Steve to ask for a referral. I did and he nicely gave me one, asking for nothing in return. Maybe he got a kickback from the girls, I don't know, but he was very pleasant on the phone.
Quote: MrVThey're all big boys, they know how the game is played.
It's all business, for both host and guest.
He hooks them up with whatever fantasy they want, and they know it's gonna cost them: usually.
Basically he's like a glorified pimp, offering earthly delights to the wealthy punters who stumble into his web.
Wicked world, that sin city.
I enjoyed his book: "Whale Hunt in the Desert."
Oh, and don't just think suicides only happen on his watch: my dad worked in a casino in AC, and he'd tell us fairly often about how somebody offed themselves at the casino.
About casino suicides, I have read some troubling stuff. A guy on another website said he was washing his hands in the restroom and another guy said something like,"I just gambled and lost my family's inheritance, " and killed himself right in front of the poor guy who was just innocently washing his hands, and the sudden and live suicide traumatized him so bad, it put him off of gambling in that casino ever again. I'd be terrified if I ever saw a sudden and live suicide in a casino restroom!
Quote: lilredroosterit's not the same thing. i don't think a salesperson in a store is my friend but he's not going to ply me with liquor, girls and gifts to strip me of as much money as possible. and if a deal is made then i got something which i believe has value. after the deal is made by this guy the customer goes home with nothing of value. just a huge and sometimes debilitating financial loss. you could say he got the chance to win big but i don't buy it. gambling is a different kind of business. he sells a negative expectation. if i'm sold a car a profit has been made off of me but i also got something useful and something i perceive to have value.
If you bet 30k in Craps all at once, you'll have better EV all on the Pass Line than you will trying to resell a 30k car the second after you have driven it off the lot.
Break up that 30k into $5 bets, and make 6,000 PL bets sized thus, and then leave, and you'll probably leave with an amount of money exceeding the value of the 30k car the second after you have driven it off the lot.
The car salesman rips you off (or not) because he has something you need. At least Cyr is giving people something they want...they just don't always want it after they have gotten it.
Do I think he's cold? Hell yes! Could I do what he does? Hell no! Do I think there's anything actually WRONG with it? I don't impose my moral set onto others, and also, I don't see the paragraph in the article talking about how he holds a gun to the heads of his clients, either.
It was a great article IMO.Quote: WizardI think he is doing his job well and doing the players a service if he is getting them better deals. If he is getting whales a loss discount when they weren't getting one before, then good for him.
He is absolutely right that if you're a whale it pays to spread your business around, to get the casinos to compete for your business. In poaching players, he is getting them better deals. That is a service to the players.
Yes, he seems to have a cavalier attitude about the destruction gambling can cause. However, what can he do about it? Compulsive gamblers need to be held accountable for their own play and not seek to blame it on greedy casinos and hosts.
I viewed that article as a refreshingly honest and informative one. My compliments to Michael Kaplan. In fact, I think I'll write him and tell him so.
Not that I by any means am a whale but I used to play at a level that got me personal hosts. They pretended to like me, always keeping up to date with my family and my hobbies. However, I eventually got booted from one casino after another. After this wave of being cut off from all comps, I would still call some hosts I liked from time to time, just to say "hello," if I was on their property for some non-gambling reason. I generally hit their voicemail, to which I left a message. The number of times they bothered to call back -- zero. Sometimes these hosts changed casinos and would suddenly be nice to me again, conveniently forgetting my calls they never returned before.
About Steve Cyr, once I was organizing a bachelor party and needed to hire a stripper or two. Somebody recommend I call Steve to ask for a referral. I did and he nicely gave me one, asking for nothing in return. Maybe he got a kickback from the girls, I don't know, but he was very pleasant on the phone.
I know hosts that have went to bat for me(and others) and had me reinstated(with perks even).
There have been hosts that have given AP's a heads up that the casino was watching their play, while giving the AP advice on what's needed to avoid getting no comped/no mailed/banned.
Hosts can be a very valuable asset. Sometimes they can also be the reason you are outed as an AP. They are the ones always looking at your play.
I dont know why it is that you can't be a host AND like the people who you are taking care of?
Other than being so flippant about the destroyed lives and suicide stuff, I could definitely do this job and like it.
I can imagine this guy getting sued at some point and the plaintiffs actually winning. He wouldn't want me on the jury after reading some of the things he has said. I would be on the plaintiffs side If I thought he was pushing or encouraging people to gamble that he knew had a serious gambling problem, or someone who was talking about suiside.
Side note: I have found female hosts to be much more stingy with comps than male hosts. I have switched from female hosts to male hosts a number of times with far better results. I find that young male hosts seem to be more generous and eager to please.
Quote: AxelWolfI find that young male hosts seem to be more generous and eager to please.
Really?........hmmmm...lol
Did you recently buy a Miata?
Quote: MaxPenReally?........hmmmm...lol
I had to re-read that lol
hey EV is EV I guess
Quote: djatcI had to re-read that lol
hey EV is EV I guess
Bruh! you catch Axel staring at your thighs with Louie Anderson eyes you get your ass in the Miata
and get the heck outta there!
Quote: Mission146Auto-Correct + Axel's Spelling = Hilarity
Man! that was worth leaving funniest thing ever.
At least it got saved in a quote.
Don't you have some conspiracy theorists websites to read?Quote: MaxPenReally?........hmmmm...lol
Did you recently buy a Miata?
Quote: AxelWolfDon't you have some conspiracy theorists websites to read?
I've edited where you were quoted to, "Generous," only because we're friends...that **** was hilarious!
Quote: Mission146.
I don't impose my moral set onto others, and also, I don't see the paragraph in the article talking about how he holds a gun to the heads of his clients, either.
You're right, partially. Nobody forced his clients. He took advantage of their weakness. In the same way mortgage brokers did in 2008 getting a big commission on a sub prime mortgage loan knowing the client didn't even have the funds to make the first payment. Or the car finance guys who charge a person with bad credit 34% interest (or whatever the maximum is in that state) expecting to repossess the car and make a huge profit. Or the promoter of an MMA fighter who convinces the guy he should go ahead with the next big fight where there's a big profit even though he has tremendous pain from a serious injury. You say you don't impose your moral set onto others, but I'll bet you do, or that many others who say the same thing do. The others I'm talking about are their children. The car that I drove off the lot that lost value after 30 seconds only lost resale value. It didn't necessarily lose actual value.
Quote: WizardCompulsive gamblers need to be held accountable for their own play and not seek to blame it on greedy casinos and hosts.
I'm not a psychologist but I know that many of them say that these people have an illness and cannot act responsibly when it comes to gambling. Many others, perhaps you, will say that's an excuse. If it is an illness, as many say, and as I believe, then preying on someone's illness is not IMO justifiable. And BTW, the story didn't say that his clients blamed him.
Quote: Mission146I've edited where you were quoted to, "Generous," only because we're friends...that **** was hilarious!
Geez, why? Leave some laughs to go around, next time. :) No idea what the joke was.
It's not always clear cut. Every liquor store makes money off alcoholics. Every beer manufacturer makes money off people who drive drunk. Some people are OK with it, others aren't. It's kind of a dirty business, but many can enjoy it responsibly. Same as running a casino.
If you know someone has a drinking problem and encourage it, and help them stumble their way to their car in hopes of repeat business, that's another kettle of fish.
Quote: RigondeauxWhether it's morally wrong or not, there's no comparison between trying to get the best of a sale and exploiting someone's addiction for your own enrichment.
The bottom line from a business point of view is "can a casino be successfully sued for its on site host encouraging a problem gambler to gamble to the point of ruin?"
I recall following the Watanabe / Caesars case, which last I heard went off to binding arbitration; anyone know what happened with that one?
Quote: lilredroosterYou're right, partially. Nobody forced his clients. He took advantage of their weakness. In the same way mortgage brokers did in 2008 getting a big commission on a sub prime mortgage loan knowing the client didn't even have the funds to make the first payment. Or the car finance guys who charge a person with bad credit 34% interest (or whatever the maximum is in that state) expecting to repossess the car and make a huge profit. Or the promoter of an MMA fighter who convinces the guy he should go ahead with the next big fight where there's a big profit even though he has tremendous pain from a serious injury. You say you don't impose your moral set onto others, but I'll bet you do, or that many others who say the same thing do. The others I'm talking about are their children. The car that I drove off the lot that lost value after 30 seconds only lost resale value. It didn't necessarily lose actual value.
I certainly hope not to impose my moral set on my children, if I parent the way I hope to, I'll merely offer them suggestions and present them with options.
The car didn't lose actual value because it never had that $$$ amount of actual value to begin with. If it had, then it would not have lost resale value.
I appreciate the comparison to the financiers, but I think one major difference is that people don't always know what they're getting into with the financiers, with gambling, they at least should know. Gambling is not buried in pages of fine print. I don't think Cyr misleads his clients into thinking they are going to win like the financier misleads the borrower into thinking he/she can make the payments.
Like I said, it's not something I could bring myself to do...especially if I was getting paid a percentage of actual loss, but it is what it is.
For the well-bankrolled AP who can get ahold of him, he's basically handing out plays with that loss rebate...so that's good.
Quote: Mission146I certainly hope not to impose my moral set on my children, if I parent the way I hope to, I'll merely offer them suggestions and present them with options.
The car didn't lose actual value because it never had that $$$ amount of actual value to begin with. If it had, then it would not have lost resale value.
I appreciate the comparison to the financiers, but I think one major difference is that people don't always know what they're getting into with the financiers, with gambling, they at least should know. Gambling is not buried in pages of fine print. I don't think Cyr misleads his clients into thinking they are going to win like the financier misleads the borrower into thinking he/she can make the payments.
Like I said, it's not something I could bring myself to do...especially if I was getting paid a percentage of actual loss, but it is what it is.
For the well-bankrolled AP who can get ahold of him, he's basically handing out plays with that loss rebate...so that's good.
As someone with zero experience with hosts I had no idea they could rebate actual slot losses. I'm assuming this would be done with free play? Can all hosts do this or just special ones like Cyr? In your experience, what percentage of actual slot (non VP) losses is a host able to rebate to the player? Is there an industry standard for the minimum loss they would even look at? 5k? 10k?
It varies from place to place and your history.Quote: RogerKintAs someone with zero experience with hosts I had no idea they could rebate actual slot losses. I'm assuming this would be done with free play? Can all hosts do this or just special ones like Cyr? In your experience, what percentage of actual slot (non VP) losses is a host able to rebate to the player? Is there an industry standard for the minimum loss they would even look at? 5k? 10k?
Not to long ago, I was playing a promo at a casino(not in NV) I lost close to 10k in less than 45 minutes. I couldn't even get a $100 in free play. They offered all the food, rooms and slot tournaments I wanted, but that's it. I have a feeling if I contact them and said, I was thinking of coming to play there, but I was offered x amount at a diffrent casino, they would probably offer me something.
I have gotten 10% rebates on as little as 3k losses with about 40k coin in.
I talked to an independent host a while back. He wouldn't commit to a percentage, but said he would give some starter free play and losses back to guys coming to Vegas with 20k or more.
It's best to negotiate before you play and not after the fact.
Unless you are truly a high roller and not some AP, its a big song and dance, you have to BS them and put on a show.
If you dont mind all the BSing, putting on a show, have the cash, or you can get a big credit line, you could make some decent coin casino hopping and hustling hosts. I dont think that gig would fit with your personality. The host might talk you into giving her some of your comps back (-;
Why, whatever are you talking about? (-;Quote: Mission146I've edited where you were quoted to, "Generous," only because we're friends...that **** was hilarious!
Thanks, I'm sure whatever you thought you seen would have derailed this thread to no end.
p.s. A friend would suspend Maxpen.
Quote: lilredroosterI'm not a psychologist but I know that many of them say that these people have an illness and cannot act responsibly when it comes to gambling. Many others, perhaps you, will say that's an excuse. If it is an illness, as many say, and as I believe, then preying on someone's illness is not IMO justifiable. And BTW, the story didn't say that his clients blamed him.
I agree the story didn't say the players were blaming anybody but some posters here were, the way I read it. I'm not an expert on any addictions but I believe every Vegas casino allows for self exclusion. Show me a casino that deliberately markets to somebody who asked to be restricted and then I'll start throwing stones. However, the player has to make the first move. It is not the casinos place to guess who is an addict and who isn't. Finally, addiction isn't a simple yes or no thing. Where do you draw the line?
Quote: MrVThe bottom line from a business point of view is "can a casino be successfully sued for its on site host encouraging a problem gambler to gamble to the point of ruin?"
I recall following the Watanabe / Caesars case, which last I heard went off to binding arbitration; anyone know what happened with that one?
If I recall, with the Watanabe situation, Caesars staff kept plying him with liquor even after he was already wasted. He ended up making stupid, very high, intoxicated bets and LOST. When he sobered up, he tried to sue Caesars for his lost money claiming they shouldn't have kept plying him with liquor as he was already wasted. He lost the case because Caesars pointed out that he was an adult and should have decided on his own to stop drinking and making intoxicated hugh bets if I recall.
Quote: WizardI agree the story didn't say the players were blaming anybody but some posters here were, the way I read it. I'm not an expert on any addictions but I believe every Vegas casino allows for self exclusion. Show me a casino that deliberately markets to somebody who asked to be restricted and then I'll start throwing stones. However, the player has to make the first move. It is not the casinos place to guess who is an addict and who isn't. Finally, addiction isn't a simple yes or no thing. Where do you draw the line?
It's an issue of personal morality. The casino itself can't ID problem gamblers. Like a bar, you open and serve people. If you are honest with yourself, you know that there is a very dark side to the business and accept it. Obviously, many prefer to live in denial. Some of your profits will come from people destroying their lives, and the lives of those around them. Though, casinos seem to have a number of policies that target problem gamblers or people who have temporarily lost control.
If you as an individual directly interact with people who are obvious addicts, and deliberately decide to inflame their addiction and discourage them from seeking help, that is far worse.
Difference between running a bar, and running a bar and walking drunks to their cars.
IDK if this guy did that or not. Sort of seems like he did.
In his defense, gambling addiction seems linked to many negative traits. When I worked in a casino, I disliked and felt little sympathy for many "regulars." But some were otherwise good people and if it ever came up, I would strongly encourage them to find help. Easy for me though, as it didn't cost me anything.
Quote: NathanIf I recall, with the Watanabe situation, Caesars staff kept plying him with liquor even after he was already wasted. He ended up making stupid, very high, intoxicated bets and LOST. When he sobered up, he tried to sue Caesars for his lost money claiming they shouldn't have kept plying him with liquor as he was already wasted. He lost the case because Caesars pointed out that he was an adult and should have decided on his own to stop drinking and making intoxicated hugh bets if I recall.
That was a tough case. Caesars obviously acted badly but it would have set a terrible precedent if the player had won.
https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=Hw-EYWlbyow
Quote: AxelWolf
If you dont mind all the BSing, putting on a show, have the cash, or you can get a big credit line, you could make some decent coin casino hopping and hustling hosts. I dont think that gig would fit with your personality. The host might talk you into giving her some of your comps back (-;
Ugh, so true.
They don't make much off players who care much about comps and value. It's a predatory business, it just is. If casinos or states with gambling really cared about it, they wouldn't have cash advances inside casinos. It is what it is. As soon as the problem gamblers start paying more in taxes than the casinos they'll care......and I don't know if it should be any different, people are responsible for their own choices. But I don't believe local casinos are an economic positive, the money they bring to the community they take from the community. And I don't think the employment they provide is worthwhile, every great once in a while there's someone with a brain working in a casino who could actually be doing something that doesn't have a net negative effect on society.
That may be why a Brush used to be important in Vegas: He knew which players deserved respect even though most money went between the players and only rakes and tips went to the casino. A man had respect in a poker room but in a casino he had 'value based solely on his chips'.
Quote: AxelWolfWhy, whatever are you talking about? (-;
Thanks, I'm sure whatever you thought you seen would have derailed this thread to no end.
p.s. A friend would suspend Maxpen.
I've been suspended for less. ;-)
