MathExtremist
MathExtremist
Joined: Aug 31, 2010
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August 26th, 2016 at 9:14:04 AM permalink
Quote: Joeshlabotnik

Yes, something like this has been litigated. Back in the early days of AC, a BJ player was backed off, and successfully sued for the right to play. He then tried to recover damages, on the premise that he could have been playing all that time and would have been X ahead based on his EV. Rather than laughing at him, the court in NJ listened to his case. Unfortunately, he lost, with the court citing cases where a lost business opportunity was not collectible damages, because no one could figure out what such an opportunity was worth (how likely to succeed, worth how much if it did). The court did remark that parties should agree on liquidated damages in such cases. The plaintiff probably way overstated what playing at that casino would have been worth to him. The judge also remarked that there were other places to play where similar opportunities existed.

What's the cite? You're not talking about Uston v Resorts, I think, which was decided on different grounds and not related to lost business opportunity. I'd be interested in reading the case you're referring to.
"In my own case, when it seemed to me after a long illness that death was close at hand, I found no little solace in playing constantly at dice." -- Girolamo Cardano, 1563
Face
Administrator
Face
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August 26th, 2016 at 2:13:12 PM permalink
Quote: Romes

Guys... I... I.... I'm just sorry for calling Dan to the thread.

I really am sorry... lol



Pah. Don't apologize. Summoning him resulted in him offering real advice, good advice. For most of you, it (should be) old news. But some of us? I'm a middle aged man and I just found out what a cashier's check is not 8 weeks ago. Had no idea that was an available means to transport funds or conduct business with. I learned something.

And I hope Dan realizes, despite my inflammatory language (and I do sincerely apologize if I offended you, Dan), that my rail was against one thing only and that was your seeming acceptance of and lack of anger towards what is (to me) such a grave injustice. I really hope this thread at least made you think.

And for the others? Just look. Some people were already savvy to it, but are now a little more fired up. I know I began research. I saw Axel strongly suggest others (esp AP) do the same. I know another has been stirred into not being so complacent. I know another dropped the "devil may care" attitude. And the weirdest of all? Look at the players. Left, right, middle, or no stance at all, yet all on the same page.

It's a good thing, this thread =)
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odiousgambit
odiousgambit
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August 26th, 2016 at 3:42:04 PM permalink
I've always said Dan's a good guy, and there's nothing wrong with setting a high standard for yourself like he has.

If I was his guru or something, I might guide him away from some of his conflicts is all. The greatest maxim of Sun Tzu, crystallized, is that you should 'pick the time and place of your battles'. He might learn from that one, I think our boy is a little too ready to tangle.
the next time Dame Fortune toys with your heart, your soul and your wallet, raise your glass and praise her thus: “Thanks for nothing, you cold-hearted, evil, damnable, nefarious, low-life, malicious monster from Hell!” She is, after all, stone deaf. ... Arnold Snyder
AxelWolf
AxelWolf
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August 26th, 2016 at 3:59:15 PM permalink
Quote: Face

Pah. Don't apologize. Summoning him resulted in him offering real advice, good advice. For most of you, it (should be) old news. But some of us? I'm a middle aged man and I just found out what a cashier's check is not 8 weeks ago. Had no idea that was an available means to transport funds or conduct business with. I learned something.

And I hope Dan realizes, despite my inflammatory language (and I do sincerely apologize if I offended you, Dan), that my rail was against one thing only and that was your seeming acceptance of and lack of anger towards what is (to me) such a grave injustice. I really hope this thread at least made you think.

And for the others? Just look. Some people were already savvy to it, but are now a little more fired up. I know I began research. I saw Axel strongly suggest others (esp AP) do the same. I know another has been stirred into not being so complacent. I know another dropped the "devil may care" attitude. And the weirdest of all? Look at the players. Left, right, middle, or no stance at all, yet all on the same page.

It's a good thing, this thread =)

Dan talks about cashiers checks and people mentioned other methods DON'T THINK YOU'RE SAFE WITH OTHER METHODS ***The Oklahoma Department of Public Safety has purchased several devices capable of seizing funds loaded on to prepaid debit cards to aid troopers in roadside seizures of suspected drug-trafficking proceeds.** Next it could be cashiers checks, wire transfers, money orders. Maybe you get it back maybe you don't, maybe it costs you lots of time and money. It's a slippery slope.


I'm surprised there's not more outrage than there is especially from many of the stories I have read, there's been some outrageous stupidity and serious abuse. Every little bit helps. On a positive note there's more publicly nowadays and people are fighting back more and more and even winning.
♪♪Now you swear and kick and beg us That you're not a gamblin' man Then you find you're back in Vegas With a handle in your hand♪♪ Your black cards can make you money So you hide them when you're able In the land of casinos and money You must put them on the table♪♪ You go back Jack do it again roulette wheels turinin' 'round and 'round♪♪ You go back Jack do it again♪♪
Wizardofnothing
Wizardofnothing
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August 26th, 2016 at 4:04:31 PM permalink
Government is corrupt/ that's why after school I soured on law- I watch something called prosecutorial discretion which basically means someone in the da office can basically decide to file charges or not. It's exactly what happenend in the bill Cosby case (not that I support him)


The casinos are and cops are two of the worst examples of this-
No longer hiring, don’t ask because I won’t hire you either
MathExtremist
MathExtremist
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August 26th, 2016 at 4:21:45 PM permalink
Quote: AxelWolf

I'm surprised there's not more outrage than there is especially from many of the stories I have read, there's been some outrageous stupidity and serious abuse. Every little bit helps. On a positive note there's more publicly nowadays and people are fighting back more and more and even winning.

Part of the problem is the cost, I'd think. Spending a bunch of money on lawyers, even on spec, to get back something that was already yours to begin with is a tough spot. That's why I was asking whether lost income could be a plausible liability theory. Compensatory and punitive damages stemming from harming a business (as opposed to just the monies recovered) would make a much more attractive case for an attorney.
"In my own case, when it seemed to me after a long illness that death was close at hand, I found no little solace in playing constantly at dice." -- Girolamo Cardano, 1563
AxelWolf
AxelWolf
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August 26th, 2016 at 4:27:19 PM permalink
Quote: MathExtremist

Part of the problem is the cost, I'd think. Spending a bunch of money on lawyers, even on spec, to get back something that was already yours to begin with is a tough spot. That's why I was asking whether lost income could be a plausible liability theory. Compensatory and punitive damages stemming from harming a business (as opposed to just the monies recovered) would make a much more attractive case for an attorney.

Not sure but I think I read somewhere a judge was outraged(good for him) and encouraged them to go after lawyers fees.
♪♪Now you swear and kick and beg us That you're not a gamblin' man Then you find you're back in Vegas With a handle in your hand♪♪ Your black cards can make you money So you hide them when you're able In the land of casinos and money You must put them on the table♪♪ You go back Jack do it again roulette wheels turinin' 'round and 'round♪♪ You go back Jack do it again♪♪
FleaStiff
FleaStiff
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August 26th, 2016 at 5:16:13 PM permalink
Its always a matter of whim and I don't trust any TSA luminary's whims. Nor do I trust any DEA or Treasury agent because even they actually believe every word you say, they seize the money to improve their own statistics and its an uphill battle to ever get it back and it will take both time and money for you to do it.

If I had ever hit it really, really BIG in a casino, I'd travel on the cheap. A junket bus from Laughlin to Los Angeles might work. Or a sail boat from Biloxi to Key West. Or buy an RV in Biloxi and drive to Key West, the cops are always looking for RVs going in the other direction.

I'd rather travel by the Mexican Limousine Service than go thru an airport. (Old GM vehicles going to crop picking areas).

I'm not paranoid... its just that if I hit it BIG then it will ALL be seized and I'll have to promise a lawyer a third or something like that, just to have a CHANCE to eventually get it back. No matter how rare it is, I'd sure hate to have something seized because my winning it again is going to be even rarer. Sorry folks... just call me a paranoid coward. I'll sip my booze and read about other people having their money seized.
cwazy
cwazy
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August 26th, 2016 at 5:25:08 PM permalink
Quote: MathExtremist

Part of the problem is the cost, I'd think. Spending a bunch of money on lawyers, even on spec, to get back something that was already yours to begin with is a tough spot. That's why I was asking whether lost income could be a plausible liability theory. Compensatory and punitive damages stemming from harming a business (as opposed to just the monies recovered) would make a much more attractive case for an attorney.



Since they'll never actually get rid of the law that allows this, they should afford free representation to the money. These forfeiture cases actually have titles like "The United States of America vs $102,000 US Currency". The property is actually the defendant. They should, then, offer that property the services of a Public Defender, just like any other defendant in a case filed by the state/federal government. If the owner of the property wants to hire their own lawyer, then fine, but at least give them the option. It won't take Johnny Cochran to win most of these forfeiture cases anyway.....most have no merit. Simply going through the motions would be enough in most cases.
Joeshlabotnik
Joeshlabotnik
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August 26th, 2016 at 9:31:22 PM permalink
Quote: MathExtremist

What's the cite? You're not talking about Uston v Resorts, I think, which was decided on different grounds and not related to lost business opportunity. I'd be interested in reading the case you're referring to.



I tried to look it up, but the reach of the databases I have access to is limited, and the case is over thirty years old. The plaintiff definitely wasn't uston or anyone else high-profile. He must have been a successful counter, though, to have gotten backed off in AC at that time.

There actually is quite a wide range of interpretations in that if you can demonstrate that money is capital for your business (as it certainly is for a counter), then tort damages apply for your not being able to use that capital. I wish there was more case law on this. I wonder if it applies in other fields--for example, a day trader deprived of his funds for two days because of a bank error--can he sue for loss of use of that money?

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