Terror attack at Orlando gay club
If you don't know what kind of "terrorism" it is, how can you counter it?Quote: TigerWuSomething more specific than the "Global War on Terrorism?"
Because there has been absolutely no sign of any of that. And we can be sure that if anything like that had been conducted, it would have been well publicized, certainly at least in non-specific terms.Quote:How do we know this isn't being done? How do we know there isn't a short and long term strategy already on the books that is being implemented even as we speak?
Sending in a conventional ground force did not fail, too. It succeeded in Iraq, getting rid of a lunatic expansionist despot, despite what radicals like David Rockefeller say. And removing our role is what reversed the relative stability of that country.Quote:Sending in a conventional ground force failed, too... what else should we do? Are you referring to the invasion of Iraq as the cause of the war?
The most I can gather is that it has to something to do with jobs. Perhaps advocates of the administration can enlighten us.Quote:What is the Obama administration saying the cause of ISIS is?
Quote: SanchoPanza1)Stop importing thousands of unscreened immigrants from Terrorism Central. 2)Take out Raqqa. 3) Support our allies like the Kurds. 4)Stop releasing tens of thousands of criminal illegal immigrants into the general population. Additional steps on request.
I agree 100% about the Kurds. They are definitely an under-appreciated and under-supported asset in the region. I think this whole mess should have been nothing but a SOF war since day one (i.e., 2003). You can't fight an ideology with a conventional ground force. You need special operations taking it down from the inside and doing pinpoint attacks when necessary, as well as making sure local forces are up to snuff in dealing with any problems.
Quote: TigerWuBut what exactly do you want him to do, policy-wise? Your answer is just "kill terrorists." But HOW? Deploy another 200,000 troops to get involved in another decade-long ground war? Level their cities with complete disregard to civilian casualties? If you were Obama, what would you be doing, and what would you be ordering your generals to do?
Notice how RonC never responded to this post.
Instead he gave one line response to BBB's post.
Quote: ams288Notice how RonC never responded to this post.
Instead he gave one line response to BBB's post.
Notice how I disappear or make quick responses some times.
It is called having a life outside this board, my friend.
I also noticed that others seem to be discussing ways that things can be done better...
I gotta get some lunch.
Quote: RonCNotice how I disappear or make quick responses some times.
It is called having a life outside this board, my friend.
I also noticed that others seem to be discussing ways that things can be done better...
I gotta get some lunch.
Hopefully when you have some time you can respond with specifics.
Specifics were given. Have a quibble with them?Quote: ams288Hopefully when you have some time you can respond with specifics.
Quote: SanchoPanzaSpecifics were given. Have a quibble with them?
Where did RonC give specifics?
I don't really care about this issue all that much (hence me hardly posting in this thread lately). I don't care if Obama or Clinton say "radical jihadists" or "radical Islamic terrorists" - it's not going to make any difference whatsoever.
But it's just curious to me how most of RonC's posts in this thread boil down to "Obama isn't doing enough! He just wants to talk about guns!" and when someone asks for specifics as to what Obama should be doing, all we get are *crickets* and a one-line response to BBB.
Apparently those advocates are as unable to articulate the causes as the administration is.Quote: SanchoPanzaOn the cause of ISIS:
The most I can gather is that it has to something to do with jobs. Perhaps advocates of the administration can enlighten us.
The specifics you are complaining about were given by none other than me in response to the OP's post. Resorting to personal baiting means that they can be regarded as entirely valid. Thank you.Quote: ams288Where did RonC give specifics?
Quote: SanchoPanzaThe specifics you are complaining about were given by none other than me in response to the OP's post. Resorting to personal baiting means that they can be regarded as entirely valid. Thank you.
Oh well that explains it! I rarely read your posts.
That is all too humorously and repeatedly obvious.Quote: ams288Oh well that explains it! I rarely read your posts.
Quote: gamerfreak
Quit hijacking boards for a political agenda. Check the name of the thread. I'm sure there's a political board on this site somewhere.
Quote: gamerfreakI get what your saying, but all of the post 9/11 attacks driven by radical Islam have been carried out by U.S. citizens. ISIS is very effective at utilizing the internet and social media to radicalize sympathizers or susceptible/mentally ill people that have lived in the U.S. their entire lives.
I think that's a wrong contention about ALL u.s. citizens... and did isis take responsibility for 9-11? I don't remember that.
Quote: SanchoPanzaApparently those advocates are as unable to articulate the causes as the administration is.
I found this quote from Obama in 2014, regarding where ISIS came from:
"It was formerly al Qaeda’s affiliate in Iraq, and has taken advantage of sectarian strife and Syria’s civil war to gain territory on both sides of the Iraq-Syrian border."
Also, to those who think the Obama administration isn't doing enough, what do you think of the information in this press release from December of last year?
And also this one?
Quote: sammydvQuit hijacking boards for a political agenda. Check the name of the thread. I'm sure there's a political board on this site somewhere.
So to clarify, you want to have a discussion where the only opinions are the one's you agree with?
Quote: RonC"“What we’re not going to do is further proclaim this man’s pledges of allegiance to terrorist groups, and further his propaganda,” Lynch told NBC. “We are not going to hear him make his assertions of allegiance [to the Islamic State].”"
"Former New York City Mayor Rudy Giluiani, also on Fox and Friends Monday, said it does not help law enforcement to try to bury the motivations or allegiences of criminals and terrorists.
"Why didn't they do this with the Mafia, to spare Italian-Americans?" Giuliani asked. "Why? Because if you did, you would never make the connection [which ultimately] brought them down.""
http://www.foxnews.com/us/2016/06/20/fbi-to-release-partial-transcript-between-orlando-nightclub-gunman-and-police.html
So...why bother releasing it at all if you are going to sanitize out the part where he pledges allegiance to ISIS?
FYI - they have changed their mind and just released the full un-redacted transcripts.
Hopefully you'll have time to peruse them after your lunch break.
I suspect most of this, including Syria, could have been contained if an effective fighting force had been left in place. Into the vacuum rushed ISIS, and Russia.
Bit by bit the President sends in advisors and trainers in acknowledgement that we need to have a role or influence in the region. He's keen on firing missiles from drones, but he's been doing that for a long time. I don't see much evidence that this matters, lacking ground units to follow up. Killing political and military leaders may have some efficacy, but in and of itself hasn't been the answer.
Meantime, fifty or so State Department lifers (neocons all, I'm sure) call for more forceful action in Syria.
In the end, I'm afraid the President just wishes it would all go away. I get the sense he's just trying to run out the clock until the end of his term.
There was no ISIS in 2001. It formed only as the U.S. exited Iraq, in some part as a U.S. effort to oust Assad.Quote: sammydvdid isis take responsibility for 9-11? I don't remember that.
Quote: SanchoPanzaThere was no ISIS in 2001. It formed only as the U.S. exited Iraq, in some part as a U.S. effort to oust Assad.
And bin laden was in Afghanistan or nearby when we went in Iraq.
Furthermore, I remember reading some reports at the time, that there was a recognition in general that the US was going to settle the score with bin Laden. In many parts of the Middle East they understood and accepted that we were coming for him.
WE opted for a wider war. People over here are trying to say Saddam forced our hand, but that cover didn't play over there except as an excuse for an invasion the way they looked at it.
Quote: rxwine
WE opted for a wider war. People over here are trying to say Saddam forced our hand, but that cover didn't play over there except as an excuse for an invasion the way they looked at it.
We were looking for Al-Qaeda in Iraq pretty early on in the war, but I don't know if we were there because of them or if they showed up because of us.
Quote: ams288Quote: RonC"“What we’re not going to do is further proclaim this man’s pledges of allegiance to terrorist groups, and further his propaganda,” Lynch told NBC. “We are not going to hear him make his assertions of allegiance [to the Islamic State].”"
"Former New York City Mayor Rudy Giluiani, also on Fox and Friends Monday, said it does not help law enforcement to try to bury the motivations or allegiences of criminals and terrorists.
"Why didn't they do this with the Mafia, to spare Italian-Americans?" Giuliani asked. "Why? Because if you did, you would never make the connection [which ultimately] brought them down.""
http://www.foxnews.com/us/2016/06/20/fbi-to-release-partial-transcript-between-orlando-nightclub-gunman-and-police.html
So...why bother releasing it at all if you are going to sanitize out the part where he pledges allegiance to ISIS?
FYI - they have changed their mind and just released the full un-redacted transcripts.
Hopefully you'll have time to peruse them after your lunch break.
Pressure sometimes works...yes I will read it.
Quote: gamerfreakSo to clarify, you want to have a discussion where the only opinions are the one's you agree with?
You got that backasswards. It's about sticking, somehow, to the original thread. Not going off in a totally different tangent. Post stuff about separate isis issues and agendas is off topic.
Quote: SanchoPanzaThere was no ISIS in 2001. It formed only as the U.S. exited Iraq, in some part as a U.S. effort to oust Assad.
We, most likely supported isis back then to take out assad. Our government is legendary for creating monsters.
Quote: sammydvWe, most likely supported isis back then to take out assad. Our government is legendary for creating monsters.
We have supported organizations that go bad. We spend a ton of money on the United Nations.
We need to study why it happened and work to have things similar to it happen again, but we also need to kill it.
Whatever happened, the folks that are aligned with these terrorist seek to kill anyone who doesn't think their perverted way.
Enforce existing laws, tighten up the process of eliminating people who are nuts from buying guns, and kill the enemy. No one thing will stop these things from happening again and again. We have to do more.
"Our common humanity transcends our differences, and our most effective response to terror is compassion, it’s unity and it’s love. "
--Loretta Lynch
http://www.washingtontimes.com/news/2016/jun/21/loretta-lynch-most-effective-response-to-islamic-t/
Yes, compassion towards the victims. Destruction of those that seek to make us all victims.
Especially when they have it in their heads, that it is okay to kill the unbelievers and their god will be pleased with them for doing so.
Quote: deluciaI don't really agree with the sentiment that you can't put blame on a religion because religion is not the same as race. Religion is just opinion and opinion should always be open for criticism and opposition! Race and ethnicity on the other hand is something you cannot do anything about and should never be used against someone
Religions are routinely criticized and opposed. There are segments of many religions that are way off base--like the Westboro Baptist freaks. Churches deserve criticism and opposition when they are doing things like protecting child molesters, promoting violence against abortionists, etc. They don't just get a free pass.
I do think that President Obama has gone out of his way to be politically correct with the Muslim religion. Just as Westboro Baptist is a perversion of the rest of Christianity; ISIS, ISIL, Al Qaeda, etc. are all perversions of the Muslim religion. He tries to paint them as totally different, but they are getting their positions from their interpretation of the Muslim religious texts. So they are Muslims and they are out of line. Just as the vast majority of Christians oppose Westboro and even protest their actions, part of the call to fight the terrorists must be to fight the cancer within. Obama is afraid to say much about that part of it.
You are either against the radical freaks that pervert the Muslim religion or you are with them.
You either come to America to be an American first, or we should not welcome you. We're a country of many religions and backgrounds, not one wanting to be forced to be Muslim. Yes, we started most, if not all, of our founders having a belief in God, but our founding documents left room for much more than just Christians.
Now I'm wondering if it was his lover he saw kissing and the whole thing exploded in his head.
Perhaps he never reconciled with himself and married a woman to convince himself he was heterosexual.
We may never know. I haven't looked at the news of this for days so maybe something is already out.
The F.B.I. hasn't found much to go on:Quote: sammydvWell, it looks like I may have been 100% right about that Orlando shooter being gay.
Now I'm wondering if it was his lover he saw kissing and the whole thing exploded in his head.
Perhaps he never reconciled with himself and married a woman to convince himself he was heterosexual.
We may never know. I haven't looked at the news of this for days so maybe something is already out.
"In seeking to verify the reports, federal agents have culled Mateen's electronic devices, including a laptop computer and cellphone, as well as electronic communications of those who made the claims, law enforcement officials said. So far, they have found no photographs, no text messages, no smartphone apps, no gay pornography and no cell-tower location data to suggest that Mateen — who was twice married to women and had a young son — conducted a secret gay life, the officials said.
The FBI is continuing to explore Mateen’s past, but investigators now believe the men who made the claims are not credible, or confused Mateen with someone else. The FBI has not said whether it has uncovered any evidence that Mateen visited the Pulse nightclub prior to the shooting. But law enforcement sources did say that investigators have not uncovered any direct links between Mateen and members of Islamic State." --la times
But then again, they may just be covering up for political correctness, just as they did with jihad. Yet then again, maybe we should all follow the lead of the attorney general and "love" those who are trying to annihilate us.
Quote: SanchoPanzaThe F.B.I. hasn't found much to go on:
"In seeking to verify the reports, federal agents have culled Mateen's electronic devices, including a laptop computer and cellphone, as well as electronic communications of those who made the claims, law enforcement officials said. So far, they have found no photographs, no text messages, no smartphone apps, no gay pornography and no cell-tower location data to suggest that Mateen — who was twice married to women and had a young son — conducted a secret gay life, the officials said.
The FBI is continuing to explore Mateen’s past, but investigators now believe the men who made the claims are not credible, or confused Mateen with someone else. The FBI has not said whether it has uncovered any evidence that Mateen visited the Pulse nightclub prior to the shooting. But law enforcement sources did say that investigators have not uncovered any direct links between Mateen and members of Islamic State." --la times
But then again, they may just be covering up for political correctness, just as they did with jihad. Yet then again, maybe we should all follow the lead of the attorney general and "love" those who are trying to annihilate us.
Lynch, and Obama from the start, are trying to keep the lines of communication and inclusion open to the Muslim community. The overriding message to them the previous 7, post-9/11 years, was of isolation, profiling, lumping together of all Muslims as extremists and terrorists.
Their community HAS to help in finding those among them who are radicalized. It could have prevented San Bernadino, for one, because their family and some friends knew something was planned but didn't act. It could prevent others, including Orlando, if the FBI had continued to monitor him; at least one of the tipsters on him had a Muslim name.
That beyond the basic recognition that , just like most Christians repudiate Christian Extremists like Westboro, or the Colorado Springs abortion clinic killer, most Muslims repudiate those who kill "directed" by passages in the Koran.
Quote: beachbumbabs....most Muslims repudiate those who kill "directed" by passages in the Koran.
True.
Only 9% of American Muslims believe suicide bombings can often/sometimes or rarely be justified.
What's 9% of 3.3 million?
Only 78% of all US Muslims say suicide bombings are never justified.
Much higher in other countries.
Quote: CalderThey Who Shall Not Be Named...
Bob Miller's VP short list:
1)Chris Christie
2)Newt Gingrich
3)Jeff Sessions
4)Mary Fallin
http://www.politicususa.com/2016/06/18/trumps-embarrassing-vp-short-list-leaks-completely-reeks-failure.html
http://www.politico.com/story/2016/06/donald-trump-vice-president-224488
And if I thought he would listen to seasoned advice.
Which I doubt.
Quote: TwoFeathersATLI could actually get behind Trump, if he had Newt behind him.
And if I thought he would listen to seasoned advice.
Which I doubt.
The two adulterers and support from the evangelicals who basically consider adultery a sin. Our world is really up side down.
Imagine the great U.S. of A. is lead by two adulterers with approval of the evangelicals ...
Hey now!Quote: 777The two adulterers and support from the evangelicals who basically consider adultery a sin. Our would is really up side down.
Imagine the great U.S. of A. is lead by two adulterers with approval of the evangelicals ...
Just cause you couldn't find anyone to have an affair with doesn't mean you should be mean to the rest of us!
Pls, just joke. No insult intended, implied, or tempted ,-)
Quote: beachbumbabsQuote: SanchoPanzaThe F.B.I. hasn't found much to go on:
"In seeking to verify the reports, federal agents have culled Mateen's electronic devices, including a laptop computer and cellphone, as well as electronic communications of those who made the claims, law enforcement officials said. So far, they have found no photographs, no text messages, no smartphone apps, no gay pornography and no cell-tower location data to suggest that Mateen — who was twice married to women and had a young son — conducted a secret gay life, the officials said.
The FBI is continuing to explore Mateen’s past, but investigators now believe the men who made the claims are not credible, or confused Mateen with someone else. The FBI has not said whether it has uncovered any evidence that Mateen visited the Pulse nightclub prior to the shooting. But law enforcement sources did say that investigators have not uncovered any direct links between Mateen and members of Islamic State." --la times
But then again, they may just be covering up for political correctness, just as they did with jihad. Yet then again, maybe we should all follow the lead of the attorney general and "love" those who are trying to annihilate us.
Lynch, and Obama from the start, are trying to keep the lines of communication and inclusion open to the Muslim community. The overriding message to them the previous 7, post-9/11 years, was of isolation, profiling, lumping together of all Muslims as extremists and terrorists.
Their community HAS to help in finding those among them who are radicalized. It could have prevented San Bernadino, for one, because their family and some friends knew something was planned but didn't act. It could prevent others, including Orlando, if the FBI had continued to monitor him; at least one of the tipsters on him had a Muslim name.
That beyond the basic recognition that , just like most Christians repudiate Christian Extremists like Westboro, or the Colorado Springs abortion clinic killer, most Muslims repudiate those who kill "directed" by passages in the Koran.
I think all radicals of any religion rewrite the tenants for their own agendas and ideals. They have for centuries.
isis can almost be considered the first internet radicals for their use of that media. I'm not aware of too many others that have focused their propaganda so directly on social networking like they have.
Quote: sammydv
I think all radicals of any religion rewrite the tenants for their own agendas and ideals. They have for centuries.
isis can almost be considered the first internet radicals for their use of that media. I'm not aware of too many others that have focused their propaganda so directly on social networking like they have.
Muslims need not rewrite anything when looking to justify murder and molestation. They simply look to the life of God's greatest prophet. Radicals of Islam are those not practicing murder and child rape because they are not following the example of their prophet. Christians who do not feed the hungry, house the homeless or visit the sick are the radicals who are not following Christ's example.
Edit: The above post is offensive to some people.
Quote: RogerKintMuslims need not rewrite anything when looking to justify murder and molestation. They simply look to the life of God's greatest prophet. Radicals of Islam are those not practicing murder and child rape because they are not following the example of their prophet.
For a second there I thought I was in the comments section of a Yahoo article....
Quote: TigerWuFor a second there I thought I was in the comments section of a Yahoo article....
Right? Total flat-earther.
<edit> Well, now it does again, Hmmm
http://insider.foxnews.com/2016/06/26/bill-maher-challenges-brexit-muslim-xenophobia-claims-real-time
This is a real issue for those who want to freely allow everyone into our country--how can we balance our gay equality issues with a religion that has over half of the followers believing that simply being gay should be illegal? There has been a tremendous awakening in our country regarding gay folks and their rights. Some do oppose some of the things that are in play right now--bathrooms, marriage (recently decided), etc.--but there are very few that actually want to make being gay illegal no matter their positions on the other issues.
This religion has not advanced at all over all--hell, we were at 43%/43% on this issue almost 40 years ago...
"Gallup first asked about the legality of homosexuality in 1977, with a basic question worded as follows: "Do you think homosexual relations between consenting adults should or should not be legal?" At that point, Americans were evenly divided on the issue, as 43% said yes, 43% said no, and 14% were not sure."
http://www.gallup.com/poll/8413/six-americans-say-homosexual-relations-should-recognized-legal.aspx
The one thing that needs to be asked of ALL immigrants is that they be Americans first. I know that may not be popular with the live and let live crowd, but at this time in our history (please don't get lost in past Christian misdeed; it is a convenient deflection but ignores what is going on now), we should not ignore where people who come here are from and what their beliefs are when those beliefs may be to take away freedoms of others, to bring more hate to our shores, and to change our system. Do we really want to import people that are for making being gay illegal at an over 50% clip?
Compared to World War II?Quote: sammydvThere's plenty of historical records of genocide in the name of Christianity throughout the centuries, from the dark ages to Easter Island missionaries into American Indians....Religion is still the leading killer through the ages.
All religions.
Quote: SanchoPanzaCompared to World War II?
More than all wars in history combined.
Greatest War Machine
100 Million Hindus
It is notable that although the prior post referred solely to Christianity, the cites offered make clear that it was Muslims committing genocide again:Quote: TankoMore than all wars in history combined.
Greatest War Machine
100 Million Hindus
"Attila and Genghis never destroyed the human contents of an entire country. 1400 years ago the Hindu civilization stretched from Afghanistan to Japan. Then the Muslims invaded the Indian sub-continent and began destroying one of the world's greatest of civilizations. While many other peoples converted to Islam rather than be killed, the Hindus did not go gently into conversion. After hundreds of years of slaughtering Hindus the followers of Mohammed committed one of the greatest of their holocausts: in the year 1000 A.D. the entire Hindu population of Afghanistan was annihilated. Not just a city full of Hindus, not a few hundred thousand Hindus, but every Hindu man, woman and child in Afghanistan (3).
"For the next 525 years Muslims continued their campaign of genocide murdering as many as 80 million Hindus (4) during that period. Counting the millions before 1000 A.D. and the tens of millions after 1525 A.D. there is little doubt that Mohammed's followers racked up more than 100 million Hindus in the past 1400 years."
That is if one can have confidence in a source that claims that China was Hindu.
Quote: SanchoPanzaIt is notable that although the prior post referred solely to Christianity, the cites offered make clear that it was Muslims committing genocide again:Quote: TankoMore than all wars in history combined.
Greatest War Machine
100 Million Hindus
"Attila and Genghis never destroyed the human contents of an entire country. 1400 years ago the Hindu civilization stretched from Afghanistan to Japan. Then the Muslims invaded the Indian sub-continent and began destroying one of the world's greatest of civilizations. While many other peoples converted to Islam rather than be killed, the Hindus did not go gently into conversion. After hundreds of years of slaughtering Hindus the followers of Mohammed committed one of the greatest of their holocausts: in the year 1000 A.D. the entire Hindu population of Afghanistan was annihilated. Not just a city full of Hindus, not a few hundred thousand Hindus, but every Hindu man, woman and child in Afghanistan (3).
"For the next 525 years Muslims continued their campaign of genocide murdering as many as 80 million Hindus (4) during that period. Counting the millions before 1000 A.D. and the tens of millions after 1525 A.D. there is little doubt that Mohammed's followers racked up more than 100 million Hindus in the past 1400 years."
That is if one can have confidence in a source that claims that China was Hindu.
Sorry, you only saw what you wanted to see and misquoted me... "There's plenty of historical records of genocide in the name of Christianity throughout the centuries, from the dark ages to Easter Island missionaries into American Indians....Religion is still the leading killer through the ages." Theres a break there, Religion - as in ALL Religion. Muslim kill in the name of islam Religion. People kill in the name of their god and the religion.
Quote: TankoMore than all wars in history combined.
There's no way to know that... estimates for the number of humans killed in war are all over the map.
Quote: sammydv"There's plenty of historical records of genocide in the name of Christianity throughout the centuries, from the dark ages to Easter Island missionaries into American Indians.....
Religion is not the leading killer throughout the ages.
Islam is.
Easter Island was not a genocide, but an ecological catastrophe.
Christians did not kill native Americans in the name of their religion, but to take their lands, or to defend themselves against them.
Most of the native American population died off due to disease.
How many people were executed by the Christians during the Spanish Inquisition?
What the Christians did ended long ago, and it never approached anything close to the scale of the genocide committed by the Muslims.
The Muslims are still at it.
