AP sues Hard Rock LV
Quote: RomesThe kid didn't gamble, but he now holds a debt from the casino that the casino is legally obligated to pay?
Restaurants, coffee shops, valet, movie theater, etc, on casino property can all have underage staff. What happens when they are tipped with a chip or a slot voucher?
Lighten up, your reading to much into it, I was not trying to disparage YOU. I was making a joke about DI in general.Quote: Ahigh?
Not appreciated your joke. I could make crude jokes about your failure to be more successful if it gives you a taste of the receiving end of this sort of behavior.
You are correct that I put much effort to investigate the possibility of AP in craps and that I failed to ever AP (IE: lifetime wins).
Making it the subject of a joke directed at me reflects poorly on you, IMO.
Please don't do this again.
Go back and read some of my other posts regarding what I think about your DI efforts.
I respect and admire everything you have done with DI. I honestly believe your craps/DI knowledge/ equipment is top notch and you're among the best. No one has publicly went to the great lengths you have regarding DI.
If someone wanted to learn about craps/DI, they should absolutely want to talk to you. I'm convinced you were in it for the love and not the money unlike many of the Shysters running around.
You're honesty and transparency regarding your crap play/DI (and other things)has been commendable, especially with all the flack you have received.
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I'm still curious why surveillance had you're number in their phone.
Many people believe there's an advantage to be had influencing the dice.
The joke may not have been far off, there has been casino personal who have truly been interested in learning about AP and went though various channels to make contact with individuals.
Quote: AxelI'm still curious why surveillance had you're number in their phone.
I'm not certain that this was the case. It just seemed like it was. But let me just drop the claim altogether for sanity's sake. I'm not going to provide any more information because I don't have any information good enough to provide.
Ok, I just though that was very interesting and certainly something most here would be interested in talking about.Quote: AhighI'm not certain that this was the case. It just seemed like it was. But let me just drop the claim altogether for sanity's sake. I'm not going to provide any more information because I don't have any information good enough to provide.
Quote: Ahigh
"Once I got a butt-dial from someone in the surveillance room and I could hear them talking about me when I answered the phone."
Whether or not it was a butt-dial from a personal cell or from internal phones is somewhat meaningless. The fact that someone in the surveillance room called you and you could hear them talking about you is very frightening, odd and interesting.
Quote: NeutrinoOk, just curious. Do casinos not have lawsuit insurance? I know doctors get sued a lot so they all have lawsuit insurance.
Almost certainly they all do but their rates go up and I'm sure there may be restrictions in their policy so they don't want to just settle necessarily.
Quote: NeutrinoOk, just curious. Do casinos not have lawsuit insurance? I know doctors get sued a lot so they all have lawsuit insurance.
Just like any large corporation, we have insurance, in-house counsel, and external lawyers on retainer. Casinos are sued regularly, vast majority of these are some moron who tripped over their own feet on the way to the buffet and is looking for a 6 figure payout, followed by the person who has buyer's remorse after losing money at the casino and thinks they deserve to get it back.
Quote: KingoftheEye...followed by the person who has buyer's remorse after losing money at the casino and thinks they deserve to get it back.
Sounds like what Borgata is trying to do to Phil Ivey.
Quote: Neutrinoyou mean sounds like what phil ivey is trying to do to that one london casino?
What is it that you think Phil Ivey is doing?
Quote: KingoftheEyesome moron who tripped over their own feet on the way to the buffet and is looking for a 6 figure payout,
followed by the person who has buyer's remorse after losing money at the casino and thinks they deserve to get it back.
Some people think handicap access is important, I'm sorry you think of them as "morons". Not all trip and fall incidents are frivolous.
Some people also think casino's cheat, and while I don't, it isn't something to dismiss so flippantly. This is especially true in other cases were said casino over extends the player's credit "often" when said player has been fed booze for hours. His/her losing is their fault but there might be blame to go around.
Quote: Neutrinoyou mean sounds like what phil ivey is trying to do to that one london casino?
I assume you know, but in case not....The Atlantic City casino, Borgata, has already paid Phil Ivey. The one in London didn't pay him what he won but did give him his deposit money back. I'm to this day not sure why they gave him his deposit back as it could have been used in settlement discussions.
Ivey played by the rules the casino allowed.
Quote: NeutrinoSorry I just got quite pissed earlier on regarding the "hole" in the legal system where it de-facto creates a major realistic difference between 'already paid the player' and 'refuse to pay the player' as far as chance of player win vs casino win in court is concerned. I was angry at Ivey for not bringing this up and in highlight, as the London casino is basically abusing legal loophole by refusing to pay to begin with. Ivey only cares about his own money and all his effort goes towards how to maximize his EV from these court cases, hence he is being selfish because the implication of this legal loophole goes way beyond just gambling.
This is why I am no longer on his side. I am happy to call Ivey a cheater because he is cheating the whole society out of social progress.
For those of you who still don't know what I'm talking about. Here's an alternate way to phrase this. "It's a large consensus that it is harder to get Ivey's money back from London casino than from Atlantic city casino because the Atlantic city one has already paid him and the london one has not" <----- legal loophole
Whatever it is you are writing doesn't make sense. That run-on sentence at the end of your post makes the least amount of sense.
I have absolutely no respect or sympathy for these miserable black-hearted jerks that work security at casinos. None. Period. Point. End Paragraph.
Quote: gordonm888Personally, I would like to see the victim press criminal charges of assault and theft against the security personnel at Hard Rock that took these actions against him. The security personnel should then be thrown into prison for a few months so that when they are released they can "carry a bowling ball no hands."
I have absolutely no respect or sympathy for these miserable black-hearted jerks that work security at casinos. None. Period. Point. End Paragraph.
i think that is too broad a statement for casino security. most of them are just following orders. plenty of experiments have shown that people will follow orders from authority beyond the bounds of what their morality would otherwise allow. that doesn't make you a bad person, just weak-minded, and it doesn't absolve you from the responsibility of what you are doing, but it certainly is a mitigating factor. if i'm security, i'm probably told that i need to detain this person for cheating, and i trust the judgement of the person giving the orders. if you're a security guard and the casino manager tells you that patron x has stolen from the casino and needs to be stopped and taken to the back room, if you say "well, let me see the tapes and i'll make my own decision before i act" while he sprints out the door, you'd be looking for a new job soon, and an idiot to boot.
in general i feel that these cases are usually resolved fairly, and now happen infrequently enough that most casinos have gotten the message. i'm sure the patron in question is very happy to be in the spot he's in right now, and the casino regrets the decision.
Quote: tongnii think that is too broad a statement for casino security. most of them are just following orders. plenty of experiments have shown that people will follow orders from authority beyond the bounds of what their morality would otherwise allow. that doesn't make you a bad person, just weak-minded, and it doesn't absolve you from the responsibility of what you are doing, but it certainly is a mitigating factor. if i'm security, i'm probably told that i need to detain this person for cheating, and i trust the judgement of the person giving the orders. if you're a security guard and the casino manager tells you that patron x has stolen from the casino and needs to be stopped and taken to the back room, if you say "well, let me see the tapes and i'll make my own decision before i act" while he sprints out the door, you'd be looking for a new job soon, and an idiot to boot.
in general i feel that these cases are usually resolved fairly, and now happen infrequently enough that most casinos have gotten the message. i'm sure the patron in question is very happy to be in the spot he's in right now, and the casino regrets the decision.
Agree with first paragraph. But if that's the case (manager giving orders), then the manager now becomes responsible, and he should be the one getting personally sued and sent to prison.
Not sure about the second one. We only know what others tell us (friends/network) and what we hear online or through the news. Perhaps back-rooming and roughing up APs is +EV for the casinos, if only a small percent of APs bring them to court. If the AP can make 100-150k a year....after going to court, paying off a Bob N, the amount owed to the patron would be relatively small, especially if you consider the AP isn't able to be out in the field making $$$ during much of that time during the trial process.
PS: I've gotten chased out of HRLV on a few occasions for refusing to show ID. Well not chased, just followes. Once got asked for ID 3 times between parking garage and the cashier, then 2 more times on the way out. On the way out I just said screw it I ain't showing these idiots my ID again.
Quote: gordonm888Personally, I would like to see the victim press criminal charges of assault and theft against the security personnel at Hard Rock that took these actions against him. The security personnel should then be thrown into prison for a few months so that when they are released they can "carry a bowling ball no hands."
If the victim asked me for advice, I would say focus your efforts against the HR. The guards would use the "following orders" excuse and defect blame back to the HR. Few people in casino security and law enforcement understand the difference between advantage play and cheating, I think because they are trained improperly. For that, blame should go to the top.
A little off topic, but once in a while I'll ask a Las Vegas police officer if card counting in blackjack is against the law. 100% of the time they say, incorrectly, "yes."
Quote: WizardIf the victim asked me for advice, I would say focus your efforts against the HR. The guards would use the "following orders" excuse and defect blame back to the HR. Few people in casino security and law enforcement understand the difference between advantage play and cheating, I think because they are trained improperly. For that, blame should go to the top.
A little off topic, but once in a while I'll ask a Las Vegas police officer if card counting in blackjack is against the law. 100% of the time they say, incorrectly, "yes."
This makes good sense, except this is one of the excuses that people make for the violence that some law enforcement officers use against black people (and sometimes white people or whomever) - that they are following their training and their training is improper. But wearing a badge does not constitute a license to use disproportionate violence or to use lethal force needlessly - and being a security guard is not a license for false imprisonment and theft (of $350 of chips). Frankly, I believe most security guards have a good understanding of what the lines are between legal and illegal when it relates to actions on their job. -otherwise they would not last long on their jobs.
Quote: WizardIf the victim asked me for advice, I would say focus your efforts against the HR. The guards would use the "following orders" excuse and defect blame back to the HR. Few people in casino security and law enforcement understand the difference between advantage play and cheating, I think because they are trained improperly. For that, blame should go to the top.
Right advice wrong reason imo. The reason to focus on HR is the #1 unwritten rule in law - Always sue the richer target. Why do you think high value (profit) sexual harassment lawsuits are always against the company?
And I thought the cops in the Maryland Live back-rooming case were poorly trained. The responsibility ultimately goes to the top of the Police dept, someone somewhere needs to be responsible for the rank and file actions.Quote: WizardA little off topic, but once in a while I'll ask a Las Vegas police officer if card counting in blackjack is against the law. 100% of the time they say, incorrectly, "yes."
I find it frustrating that that officer stated as fact (that card counting is illegal) when he was completely wrong. THINK, man, think, you don't work for the casino. And if you don't know, why would you say it ?
Quote: WizardIf the victim asked me for advice, I would say focus your efforts against the HR. The guards would use the "following orders" excuse and defect blame back to the HR. Few people in casino security and law enforcement understand the difference between advantage play and cheating, I think because they are trained improperly. For that, blame should go to the top.
A little off topic, but once in a while I'll ask a Las Vegas police officer if card counting in blackjack is against the law. 100% of the time they say, incorrectly, "yes."
I agree with all of Wizard's points on this and make these points, and more, in my Article on this matter:
https://wizardofvegas.com/article/Rent-A-Cops/
Please read and enjoy!
Quote: Mission146I agree with all of Wizard's points on this and make these points, and more, in my Article on this matter:
https://wizardofvegas.com/article/Rent-A-Cops/
Please read and enjoy!
I like this article. You will always need security present at a backoff, since some AP's have been aggressive with the TG staff when they are booted, but most of the time they are just as eager to leave. If you run into the rare belligerent one, just keep pushing their bet back, and if they refuse to leave the table, call the cops and have them removed. No muss, no fuss, no grounds for a lawsuit.
By the way, the surveillance guy in your picture in the article needs some serious re-training on monitor usage. No words exist for how terrible that is.
Quote: KingoftheEyeI like this article. You will always need security present at a backoff, since some AP's have been aggressive with the TG staff when they are booted, but most of the time they are just as eager to leave. If you run into the rare belligerent one, just keep pushing their bet back, and if they refuse to leave the table, call the cops and have them removed. No muss, no fuss, no grounds for a lawsuit.
By the way, the surveillance guy in your picture in the article needs some serious re-training on monitor usage. No words exist for how terrible that is.
Severely disagree with this. Problem with voluntarily escalating situation beyond what's necessary is it makes it easy for things to spiral out of control with an improperly trained or emotional security, IMO this is why you hear about far more cases of patron abuse and lawsuits at CET properties vs. MGM.
The rare but far too common problem of the security officer or management personnel becoming belligerent seems to me would be a bigger problem from a risk standpoint than the AP being belligerent, in which case security is never really that far away
