AP sues Hard Rock LV
http://www.reviewjournal.com/business/casinos-gaming/advantage-gambler-sues-hard-rock-hotel
Thank goodness we have Bob Nersesian on our side. :) This will be an easy 6 figure hit to these uneducated goons.
PGDAN, tell me again who are the bad guys, the ones breaking the law, AP's or casinos?
Quote:The lawsuit claims the security personnel "audaciously and without authority informed the plaintiff that, because the casino is private property, plaintiff did not have the ability to leave until he complied with defendant's demands for identification."
Yep, I'm the owner of a 7-11... You came in to buy a slurpy and I'm not gonna let you leave until you show me your ID!!!
Astonishing... Let's think about this. They confiscated $3600 in chips. So what was he playing? $500 max bet maybe intending on buying more if needed or something? Maybe 2x300? So what was this guy going to earn from playing at the Hard Rock? Let's run some numbers... Assuming he was playing a .36 house edge game (good game - 6D LS S17), and working his spread to be a 2x300 max bet out at TC +4. Also assuming a $50 min table and only wonging out at TC < -1 = $71.35/hour.
Okay, so he's from NJ, goes to Vegas several times a year I'm sure... So let's say he goes to vegas 4 times a year (once per quarter). During that trip let's say he gets 10 hours of play from the hard rock - I would think this is A LOT... 5 different sessions of 2 hours even! That's going to equate out to about $700 per trip (surely there's tipping, mistakes, cover, etc, that rounds this number down even more). This would mean PER YEAR he earns about $2800 from the Hard Rock (don't forget taxes, but we're just looking at it from the Hard Rock's stand point).
So let's see... $2800 per year, say he counts for 30 years. Well that comes out to be a LIFETIME WIN from the Hard Rock of $84,000. Now what did they do? They went ahead and broke the law in order to get in a lawsuit that's going to cost them probably $200,000 (with attorneys fee's, etc). They effectively chose to break the law and then lose $200k from their bottom line (about 3 LIFETIMES of counting for Kho) because they are bullies with a serious power tripping complex.
Brilliant. Just brilliant. I wonder why casinos go bankrupt when they have so many suckers playing so many losing games?
Quote: kewljWill they never learn?
http://www.reviewjournal.com/business/casinos-gaming/advantage-gambler-sues-hard-rock-hotel
Thank goodness we have Bob Nersesian on our side. :) This will be an easy 6 figure hit to these uneducated goons.
PGDAN, tell me again who are the bad guys, the ones breaking the law, AP's or casinos?
Stuff like this happens in every business. There are good people and bad people in every business. It doesn't make the whole casino bad, just like having one employee refuse to serve a someone who is gay doesn't make the whole franchise/business bad.
ZCore13
There have been enough of these cases in Las Vegas and Nevada, that you just don't see many locally anymore. For the most part casinos seemed to have learnt this lesson. What we have seen recently is cases in these newer jurisdictions that are still going through the learning process. It should be noted, that this property recently changed hands to an out-of-state outfit that needs to understand the law and they will now have that 'opportunity'. :)
Quote: Zcore13Stuff like this happens in every business. There are good people and bad people in every business. It doesn't make the whole casino bad,
ZCore13
This doesn't sound like a case of one bad or uninformed employee. There was a violation at the cage. There was illegal arrest and handcuffing on the casino floor and illegal detention in the back room along with illegal search.
At the very least there are several employees involved, including presumably someone fairly high up. These actions don't occur without someone higher ups authority or approval. And that does make the whole casino bad, or at minimum uneducated with improper training.
Quote: IbeatyouracesThe cage DOES have the right to ask for ID for reporting issues. Motorcity here requires it at $2500+
I think you're right but a bit out of context/confusing. They have the right to ASK, not demand. The customer has the right to REFUSE, and is not subject to detention for refusing. In the case of a CTR they are supposed to ask, but if the patron refuses they're protocol is to actually take down the best physical description of the patron as they can, and then to go ahead and cash the chips.
Quote: WizardofnothingI do not think that is correct in regard to the ctr- once you go above that threshold they do not have to cash the chips unless you provide I'd- I have had this happen numerous times . They either refuse the buy in at the table and in the case of Hollywood casinos they simply refused to cash the chips without I
Every casino had different thresholds. This reporting isn't for CTRs, it's for keeping a log of your daily activity incase you amass the $10,000+
The casino may have whatever rules (casino rules, not laws) in place of when to ask for ID. But, a patron is not required to show ID when cashing out if the single cash-out or day's total cash out (or buy in) exceeds $10,000. If it exceeds $10K, they will demand ID, and without providing ID, they will not cash you out (or buy you in, if you're at a table). If it's less than $10K, they can only ask for ID, but not demand.
As far as SARs (Suspicious Activity Report) they are still not required to get ID for such cash-outs (ie: between $3K and < $10K). They can ask for ID, but, they cannot demand ID. If the patron refuses to show ID, they are supposed to write down the best physical description of the player and any other information about the player they can [legally] muster up.
Unless the guy already cashed out $6375 on the same day, he would not be required to show ID.
Quote: mcallister3200Refusing to cash chips and confiscating chips is a pretty important distinction.
Yes, taking chips without issueing a receipt and calling gaming commision, amounts to stealing
Quote: RSCasinos always have the right to ASK for ID for any transaction, or even for no transaction (ie: you go to cage to ask a question, they can ask for ID).
The casino may have whatever rules (casino rules, not laws) in place of when to ask for ID. But, a patron is not required to show ID when cashing out if the single cash-out or day's total cash out (or buy in) exceeds $10,000. If it exceeds $10K, they will demand ID, and without providing ID, they will not cash you out (or buy you in, if you're at a table). If it's less than $10K, they can only ask for ID, but not demand.
As far as SARs (Suspicious Activity Report) they are still not required to get ID for such cash-outs (ie: between $3K and < $10K). They can ask for ID, but, they cannot demand ID. If the patron refuses to show ID, they are supposed to write down the best physical description of the player and any other information about the player they can [legally] muster up.
Unless the guy already cashed out $6375 on the same day, he would not be required to show ID.
What if the cashier says... "I need to see your ID to be sure you are at least 21. I will not proceed with this transaction without that proof?" My supermarket chain here requires such proof for all alcohol purchases even if you are obviously well over that age.
Quote: WizardofnothingI do not think that is correct in regard to the ctr- once you go above that threshold they do not have to cash the chips unless you provide I'd- I have had this happen numerous times . They either refuse the buy in at the table and in the case of Hollywood casinos they simply refused to cash the chips without I
Nersesian said at least for Nevada, they can not refuse a cash out. A buy in is a different story; they're choosing not to book your action. Casino chips are a debt that by nevada gaming law they must pay. The protocol, as was described by Bob, is they must take the best physical description they can and put that on the report because they're legally obligated to pay the debt (chips).
If you're any serious or pro I'd definitely recommend contacting a local attorney to check your states laws regarding this. What I have to say is just hear-say, but it was from Nersesian's mouth at least? =p
What if he knew that going in and factored it into his AP calculations? His hourly EV looks a lot higher than $75 or so if you factor in the proceeds from litigation (even accounting for the non-unity probability of success).Quote: RomesSo let's see... $2800 per year, say he counts for 30 years. Well that comes out to be a LIFETIME WIN from the Hard Rock of $84,000. Now what did they do? They went ahead and broke the law in order to get in a lawsuit that's going to cost them probably $200,000 (with attorneys fee's, etc). They effectively chose to break the law and then lose $200k from their bottom line (about 3 LIFETIMES of counting for Kho) because they are bullies with a serious power tripping complex.
That should be a joke. Here's a first draft:
Q: An advantage player is gambling against a casino. Who wins?
A: Their lawyers.
Unless he was hoping for a lawsuit.
Quote: Zcore13Stuff like this happens in every business. There are good people and bad people in every business. It doesn't make the whole casino bad, just like having one employee refuse to serve a someone who is gay doesn't make the whole franchise/business bad.
Well said.
Quote: WizardofnothingAfter reading that - he might actually get more then 200k. That's a pretty Blatant violation.
I agree, should be an easy victory, just a question of the amount. I'd take the over on 200K. My line is 400K.
AGREE !Quote: HunterhillHe should end up with a good payday for this,
DISAGREE. The casino should follow the regulations established by the Nevada Gaming Commission. Just cash him out. AND everyone in the Casino industry should know you cannot illegally detain someone.Quote: Hunterhillhowever he should have left without cashing out.
Quote: HunterhillNot cashing out isn't about regulations. It's about getting out the door and giving them less time for a confrontation. Come back and cash out at another time.If you're not an AP then this doesn't apply to you.
I understand you are referring to a survival move for an AP and there is merit but the casino should also follow regulations. There may be reasons one feels they should cash out immediately. They may be short on bankroll and want to move comfortably onto another casino without cash tied up or they may not trust someone else to cash out for them later. Obviously just coming back the next day isn't helpful as that may be too soon.
There are also other issues like the possibility that cashing out smaller increments over time could be misconstrued as an attempt at structuring.
I personally feel I want to get my money out as soon as possible and not walk around with what is potentially worthless plastic. The casino is in violation here of regulations and civil laws.
Quote: Wizard
I agree, should be an easy victory, just a question of the amount. I'd take the over on 200K. My line is 400K.
I'll take the under 400k for $20, Even Money, no juice, $399000-$401000 is a push.
Oh, that's your line. How about $20 on the Under to win $19.75?
when he was in line checking in? Just wait
10min, he'll have to show ID to get the
comped room. What morons.
Hard Rock hasn't been open even close to 30 years.Quote: RomesSo let's see... $2800 per year, say he counts for 30 years. Well that comes out to be a LIFETIME WIN from the Hard Rock of $84,000.
Quote: darkozI understand you are referring to a survival move for an AP and there is merit but the casino should also follow regulations. There may be reasons one feels they should cash out immediately. They may be short on bankroll and want to move comfortably onto another casino without cash tied up or they may not trust someone else to cash out for them later. Obviously just coming back the next day isn't helpful as that may be too soon.
There are also other issues like the possibility that cashing out smaller increments over time could be misconstrued as an attempt at structuring.
I personally feel I want to get my money out as soon as possible and not walk around with what is potentially worthless plastic. The casino is in violation here of regulations and civil laws.
Coming back the next day probably would be helpful, I've went into an establishment the day after 86'ing to cash chips with zero issues. They're not immediately onto you the moment you walk in the door.
Not only does leaving without cashout when you sense heat avoid the confrontation in most cases, but the best photo they will ever get of you will come at the cage for future reference, theyll have to deal with a poorer photo if they don't know you're at the cage when cashing out later. This is standard operating procedure and something 99%+ of experienced table games AP's will do under the circumstances. I can understand a different viewpoint coming from a machine player.
Quote: Wizard
I agree, should be an easy victory, just a question of the amount. I'd take the over on 200K. My line is 400K.
I think it will be under 400k. This is such a blatant case with numerous major violations, illegal arrest, illegal detention, illegal search, theft of property, that I would be very surprised if Hard Rock didn't settle this case as quickly as possible. Why compound the very bad situation with costly legal fight and continuing bad publicity. You cut your losses and move on. Well, that's what I would do in that situation, but the casino industry rarely seems to see things the way I do. :/
I am willing to wager up to 100 on the under 400K. If you want the action let me know.
Quote: SOOPOOWhat if the cashier says... "I need to see your ID to be sure you are at least 21. I will not proceed with this transaction without that proof?" My supermarket chain here requires such proof for all alcohol purchases even if you are obviously well over that age.
If I'm not mistaken....I believe you do NOT need an ID to cash-out, even if it's an "age thing", although am not certain on that one. I think I heard it on one of the GWAE podcasts with Bob N or perhaps an article online or a book.
Quote: Zcore13Stuff like this happens in every business. There are good people and bad people in every business. It doesn't make the whole casino bad, just like having one employee refuse to serve a someone who is gay doesn't make the whole franchise/business bad.
ZCore13
Totally agree with this and it goes both ways here. AP's can be a pain and will take it out on any shop that backs down and lets them keep playing. Out of all the counters I have had backed off, maybe only 10 were 86'd and that was because they came back after they were backed off and tried to play BJ again. We never required ID from any of them. If they refused, they just were read the 86 paperwork and sent on their way. We already had a photo and saved the video/audio of the 86. The 2 that were silly enough to come back after that were sent with the sheriff for defiant trespass. When this happens, we get the added bonus of getting their names since we are making a criminal complaint. Score. :-)
And you know, the ones that left and cashed out without a fuss were usually not even reported to the networks, unless they were spreading 50 units and hadn't been reported yet. We are in competition with the other casinos after all.
Quote: SanchoPanzaHard Rock hasn't been open even close to 30 years.
The argument was the next FUTURE 30 years... Assuming they stay open the next 30 years (won't with stints like this) I was projecting what his "lifetime" win against them would be and how they just handed him double that, not to mention fines from Gaming or court fee's/etc.
You guys are hilarious sometimes. I get butt dialed a lot (my name being "AARON.")
Meg is so cute
can you tell the difference?
she says "you do the math"
Quote: AhighOnce I got a butt-dial from someone in the surveillance room and I could hear them talking about me when I answered the phone.
Are you saying that someone in The Eye had your cell number on their phone and accidentally dialed it while you are on the casino floor?
Doesn't that seem a bit STRANGE to you?
Quote: AhighOnce I got a butt-dial from someone in the surveillance room and I could hear them talking about me when I answered the phone.
You guys are hilarious sometimes. I get butt dialed a lot (my name being "AARON.")
We're not the funny ones, the customers are. Although it can be like a bad episode of MST3K in the room at times.
Quote: MrVAre you saying that someone in The Eye had your cell number on their phone and accidentally dialed it while you are on the casino floor?
Doesn't that seem a bit STRANGE to you?
I get butt dialed a lot, so the only thing that was strange was where it came from. I actually received a hang-up call from "unknown caller" while posting this response as a matter of fact.
Quote: RSIf I'm not mistaken....I believe you do NOT need an ID to cash-out, even if it's an "age thing",.
the time to ID for age is at the gaming table.
Let say a cashier ID's for age and the person is underage
Does she turn in her own casino for a letting an under age kid gamble?
WTF? Why would a surveillance person have your personnel cell number on his phone?Quote: AhighOnce I got a butt-dial from someone in the surveillance room and I could hear them talking about me when I answered the phone.
You guys are hilarious sometimes. I get butt dialed a lot (my name being "AARON.")
NVM he probably added it to his phone, hoping one day he would quit his job and learn DI from one of the best.
Quote: terapinedthe time to ID for age is at the gaming table.
Let say a cashier ID's for age and the person is underage
Does she turn in her own casino for a letting an under age kid gamble?
This brings me to a question that maybe is common knowledge (not for me). The age is 21 to gamble. Is there any law specific to age requirement to cash in chips?
I mean it isn't like the old day where under 21 was not allowed on casino floor. Many casinos have food courts, shopping, movies and bowling that 'cater' to those under 21. At Sam's Town in Vegas, there is a sign by the door that states that anyone under 21 unaccompanied by and adult AFTER 7pm is not allowed on the casino floor. This would seem to indicate that before 7pm it is ok, no? So if they are allowed on the casino floor and there is no law specifically stating you must be 21 to cash chips (only gamble)??
It seems blurry, but Bob also said they can't force an ID on you and hold your chips hostage at the cage. I think at worse they have to give you the chips back and refuse to cash which might get them a fine from Gaming... Possibly a good Gambling With an Edge Question?
seeking 10k when the casino steals 3.6k from him is like, the casino should be +EV as log as it doesn't get sued more than 1/3 times when it does this. How is that going to discourage casinos to be even nastier to players?
He should be able to easily get $100k from this, if not more. But the fact he only asks for 10k makes me conclude that his case is probably not that strong (maybe he's previously been 86'd?), and there is something the article is not telling us that is in the casino's favor.
Quote: Neutrinoplanitive is seeking just $10k? Why so little? unless there's something we don't know from his 1 sided story that is in the casino's favor? is $10k even enough to pay bob naresan's laywer costs?
That's damages in EXCESS of $10k. That dollar amount just set's the jurisdiction that'll hear the case (i.e. it's not a small claims court matter, etc.) Actual damages will be set in the trial or settlement, and will almost certainly be 6 figures.
Quote: KingoftheEyeWe're not the funny ones, the customers are. Although it can be like a bad episode of MST3K in the room at times.
Dude...bad episode? Can you elaborate on what that would look like? I've never seen one of those:-)
Quote: AxelWolfWTF? Why would a surveillance person have your personnel cell number on his phone?
?
Quote: AxelWolfNVM he probably added it to his phone, hoping one day he would quit his job and learn DI from one of the best.
Not appreciated your joke. I could make crude jokes about your failure to be more successful if it gives you a taste of the receiving end of this sort of behavior.
You are correct that I put much effort to investigate the possibility of AP in craps and that I failed to ever AP (IE: lifetime wins).
Making it the subject of a joke directed at me reflects poorly on you, IMO.
Please don't do this again.
