I Spy With My Mechanical Eye
Guys who were playing in the 90's up until 2005 are usually interested because the books are still used today. Also there's tons of information and protocol in the books. Especially valuable for anyone who plays table games.Quote: mcallister3200Idk about griffin, but I am interested in a pair of bell bottom jeans or zubas to go with a mullet or bowl cut as long as we're at it.
Quote: AxelWolfAlso there's tons of information and protocol in the books. Especially valuable for anyone who plays table games.
Which is why I think anyone in surveillance today, even if today is their very first day on the job, would know what Griffin is/was.
Quote: Dodsferd...This essentially covers what first comes to mind in regards to this department, but I’m more than happy to provide what details I can in regards to whatever else may be of interest.
Hi Dodsferd,
Couple of questions:
1. Are you comfortable that you are ok to give away what may be considered trade secrets by your employers? No-one here wants you to get yourself fired.
2. Not so much a question, more a request - how about some anecdotes? A guy on surveillance for 5 years must have some great stories to tell.
Are you being stalked or something as of late?Quote: mcallister3200Idk about griffin, but I am interested in a pair of bell bottom jeans or zubas to go with a mullet or bowl cut as long as we're at it.
Gets +EV if you commit a lot of sins and repent before you die as your sins get washed away.
Quote: OnceDearHi Dodsferd,
Couple of questions:
1. Are you comfortable that you are ok to give away what may be considered trade secrets by your employers? No-one here wants you to get yourself fired.
2. Not so much a question, more a request - how about some anecdotes? A guy on surveillance for 5 years must have some great stories to tell.
I'm not interested in getting fired myself, so if there's something I'm hesitant to discuss, I'll make it known. Specifics via PM are possible, as I'm much less concerned about that.
Yes, I've seen some fantastic things in my years so far, it's quite amusing what people do when they think nobody is watching. I have hundreds of clips saved from various funny or intriguing events. For stories, give me a topic and I'll see what I can remember.
Quote: RSWhich is why I think anyone in surveillance today, even if today is their very first day on the job, would know what Griffin is/was.
I started in '09 and knew what it was. We even still "used" it. I use "used" lightly because it was very poor and, like someone else said, seemed to be full of old if not expired info.
What are some of the worst dealer mistakes you've seen?
Quote: RSHow frequently are you called for a dispute? ie: Someone claiming they got under paid or they had a bet (when they really didn't)?
What are some of the worst dealer mistakes you've seen?
I once saw three different people at the same table, that had just opened, buy in for $100. Each was given 20 green chips.
Quote: RSHow frequently are you called for a dispute? ie: Someone claiming they got under paid or they had a bet (when they really didn't)?
What are some of the worst dealer mistakes you've seen?
Happens frequently on the bacc tables, particularly when it comes to bonus bet resolutions. I get a call roughly once or twice in a 12-18 hour period approximately.
For dealer errors? Nothing grotesquely major in my experience. Paying with dirty stacks, occasionally letting someone bet above the table limit, mistakes in payment ratios; Lucky Lucky bets or UTH are common for that.
Quote: DodsferdHappens frequently on the bacc tables, particularly when it comes to bonus bet resolutions. I get a call roughly once or twice in a 12-18 hour period approximately.
For dealer errors? Nothing grotesquely major in my experience. Paying with dirty stacks, occasionally letting someone bet above the table limit, mistakes in payment ratios; Lucky Lucky bets or UTH are common for that.
I have played at a table 12-18 hours in a session quite a few times. The APs on the forum are gonna fall outta their chairs when they read that. But it is true. No food, just cards and scotch and a lot of water. But when I do, when I have, I run thru quite a few dealers, the shift dealer, the break dealer , the new dealer, and another new dealer, and multiple pit suits, they take breaks too.
Did you mean to say that you worked 12-18 hour shifts in Surveillance? Or were you just doing math and saying that during every 12-18 hours of play the surveillance crew would get a call once or twice in 12-18 hours of play, or did you mean to say that you have worked 12-18 hours of play and got a call 'roughly once or twice'? I hope you understand the question, I hope I understand the answer.( yup, I've been drinking again). 2F
Quote: TwoFeathersATLI have played at a table 12-18 hours in a session quite a few times. The APs on the forum are gonna fall outta their chairs when they read that. But it is true. No food, just cards and scotch and a lot of water. But when I do, when I have, I run thru quite a few dealers, the shift dealer, the break dealer , the new dealer, and another new dealer, and multiple pit suits, they take breaks too.
Did you mean to say that you worked 12-18 hour shifts in Surveillance? Or were you just doing math and saying that during every 12-18 hours of play the surveillance crew would get a call once or twice in 12-18 hours of play, or did you mean to say that you have worked 12-18 hours of play and got a call 'roughly once or twice'? I hope you understand the question, I hope I understand the answer.( yup, I've been drinking again). 2F
Longest shift I've been scheduled for is 12 hours. I've worked 15-24 hours before in one stretch, but that was my own prerogative and not due to illegal scheduling. I was just doing an approximation with math. You were right in your statement of about 12-18 hours worth of play resulting in 1-2 discrepancies regarding false claims. We get calls constantly for other reasons. It's not uncommon for our department to go through several dozen calls in a 8-12 hour shift.
Quote: RSWhich is why I think anyone in surveillance today, even if today is their very first day on the job, would know what Griffin is/was.
I've worked in surveillance in Vegas for a few years. I read about Griffin once when I took some casino gaming classes. Can't say I've ever heard them mentioned at work though.
You should go look for the book. Every casino that ever dealt with griffin had copies. It's not some small book. its a series of them fair in size catalog. casinos still use the books, it's not something you toss out. Then you can hopefully report back to us once you locate it, check next to anything written, manuals, protocol books etc.Quote: MissEyeI've worked in surveillance in Vegas for a few years. I read about Griffin once when I took some casino gaming classes. Can't say I've ever heard them mentioned at work though.
Perhaps we can come up with a list of downtown casinos that have it. They recently 86ed someone because they were in this book.
Most certainly the strip casino you're transferring to will have it.
Quote: AxelWolfYou should go look for the book. Every casino that ever dealt with griffin had copies. It's not some small book. its a series of them fair in size catalog. casinos still use the books, it's not something you toss out. Then you can hopefully report back to us once you locate it, check next to anything written, manuals, protocol books etc.
Perhaps we can come up with a list of downtown casinos that have it. They recently 86ed someone because they were in this book.
Most certainly the strip casino you're transferring to will have it.
The only thing we have is a GCB most wanted and excluded list. It's an interesting read.
Of course, something anybody can go online see and read.Quote: MissEyeThe only thing we have is a GCB most wanted and excluded list. It's an interesting read.
in surv who never heard of a book that was
at the center of serv just a few years ago.
I reminds me of the surv guy who wrote The
Black Dome a couple years ago. He said people in
surv don't get paid enough to care about
anything. They are completely unproactive,
they don't go in the least bit out of their way
to improve their job. They wait till something
is right in front of them and then act on it.
http://www.richardmunchkin.com/2012/08/interview-with-t-dane-author-of-behind.html
Quote: EvenBobWhat impresses me is, we have two people
in surv who never heard of a book that was
at the center of serv just a few years ago.
I reminds me of the surv guy who wrote The
Black Dome a couple years ago. He said people in
surv don't get paid enough to care about
anything. They are completely unproactive,
they don't go in the least bit out of their way
to improve their job. They wait till something
is right in front of them and then act on it.
http://www.richardmunchkin.com/2012/08/interview-with-t-dane-author-of-behind.html
I said I had heard about it. Just not at work. No matter what people are paid there will always people who care enough to excell at work and those who just get by.
Quote: EvenBobWhat impresses me is, we have two people
in surv who never heard of a book that was
at the center of serv just a few years ago.
Speculation in the two threads that this is a reflection of the surveillance people (in a negative light) when fact is, maybe the fact that two newer surveillance people not being familiar with Griffin is more a reflection of just how 'irrelevant' Griffin has become. Couldn't happen to a nicer lady (Bev) and group of people (what's left of Griffin) :)
Deleted.Quote: kewljSpeculation in the two threads that this is a reflection of the surveillance people (in a negative light) when fact is, maybe the fact that two newer surveillance people not being familiar with Griffin is more a reflection of just how 'irrelevant' Griffin has become. Couldn't happen to a nicer lady (Bev) and group of people (what's left of Griffin) :)
Quote: ajemeisterthe steakhouse?
It's a casino on Boulder highway in Vegas.
Quote: MaxPenWho owns the Longhorn?
Close your eyes and point to a random bum on boulder highway. Him and his 3 closest bum friends own it.
Quote: MaxPenWho owns the Longhorn?
This has what to do with surveillance?
Quote: DeMangoThis has what to do with surveillance?
With all the talk about Griffin Agency in thus thread, I thought it might be a relevant question.
Griffin was huge in Vegas and beyond at one time yes, they were pretty thorough and (according to my connections) vetted each story and even were on hand at casinos for major arrests and busts. At some point their strongest/most experienced minds split apart and weaker people were hired on. As their subscription base grew so too did the pressure to provide more up to date information. Accuracy suffered, the verification process failed. Certain well known advantage players were mislabeled and associations were made based on simply being in the same breathing space.
A few false arrests and Griffin became toxic. Everything Griffin had provided became suspect and discounted. Today if the only source of information is Griffin, a completely new evaluation is done. OSN has gone much to the same place, the source of the information and talent of the department supplying that information is suspect, in multiple rooms it is not even used.
Slots is not watched because it has not been published. Casino Management has not had their eyes opened, one massive nuke dropping like Don Johnson in Atlantic City and that all will change.
Finally for any type of play... the win and SD reveals them all at some point....
Moment of sobriety over, back to self imposed lurker status to avoid embarrassing drunken posts :P
Quote: RonCAs we've discussed many times around here, casinos don't want players who know what they are doing...
That is not true. For your statement to be true, you need to define what the player is doing. If a player knows how to get drunk and bet stupid bets, your statement is patently false.
Quote: LVJackalWhat happened to Griffin:
Griffin was huge in Vegas and beyond at one time yes, they were pretty thorough and (according to my connections) vetted each story and even were on hand at casinos for major arrests and busts. At some point their strongest/most experienced minds split apart and weaker people were hired on. As their subscription base grew so too did the pressure to provide more up to date information. Accuracy suffered, the verification process failed. Certain well known advantage players were mislabeled and associations were made based on simply being in the same breathing space.
A few false arrests and Griffin became toxic. Everything Griffin had provided became suspect and discounted. Today if the only source of information is Griffin, a completely new evaluation is done. OSN has gone much to the same place, the source of the information and talent of the department supplying that information is suspect, in multiple rooms it is not even used.
Slots is not watched because it has not been published. Casino Management has not had their eyes opened, one massive nuke dropping like Don Johnson in Atlantic City and that all will change.
Finally for any type of play... the win and SD reveals them all at some point....
Moment of sobriety over, back to self imposed lurker status to avoid embarrassing drunken posts :P
Hi Jackal. Have you heard of LV JackEl?
Quote: waasnodayJust spoke with our Surveillance department about the Griffin book and was told we did have at some time in the past but no longer use it and had to send the book back to Griffin. From what I was able to gather was that this was done quite a few years ago, probably about the time Griffin was getting hit with the lawsuits. Presently we do use OSN but as mentioned earlier, the data from that site has to be looked at with the understanding that what is entered on that site may be just one casino staff members opinion and it may not properly reflect the situation. The OSN information will be looked at but whatever decision is made will be determined by the customer's gameplay while on our floor. There are other Surveillance information sharing networks out there but they seem to be more regionally based (i.e. based within the state or amongst the tribes within a state.) I will say from what I have seen the information sharing can be pretty minimal on the local networks.
If like to see if any well known celebrities or poker players like Ivey are in any of them. That would be interesting.
Quote: Ibeatyouracessaid he wouldn't even let Ivey play a slot machine!
If you're a well known AP, some casinos won't
let you play any game. I've heard well known
card sharp and magician Ricky Jay say he's not
allowed into a lot of casinos at all. If you've
ever seen him perform close up magic, you
can understand why.
Quote: RonCAs we've discussed many times around here, casinos don't want players who know what they are doing...
Quote: AhighThat is not true. For your statement to be true, you need to define what the player is doing. If a player knows how to get drunk and bet stupid bets, your statement is patently false.
Um, okay. Your statement totally ignores the context of the discussion. I hope you were "joking" in some form because I'd hate to have to link all the threads explaining that they don't want smart players; they want dumb players and they'll settle for average players (you know, the kind that lose more than win and play with no advantage...like dice controllers...).
Quote: Ibeatyouraceshttps://youtu.be/Z1w7NEqLbAM
Thank you very much!
Quote: waasnodayJust spoke with our Surveillance department about the Griffin book and was told we did have at some time in the past but no longer use it and had to send the book back to Griffin. From what I was able to gather was that this was done quite a few years ago, probably about the time Griffin was getting hit with the lawsuits. Presently we do use OSN but as mentioned earlier, the data from that site has to be looked at with the understanding that what is entered on that site may be just one casino staff members opinion and it may not properly reflect the situation. The OSN information will be looked at but whatever decision is made will be determined by the customer's gameplay while on our floor. There are other Surveillance information sharing networks out there but they seem to be more regionally based (i.e. based within the state or amongst the tribes within a state.) I will say from what I have seen the information sharing can be pretty minimal on the local networks.
Our own province-wide network usually carries photographs, names, date of birth, as well as a synopsis of why they're in the network. Anything further can be acquired at a later time by the casino itself should the person enter. It's more used as an early warning system for outstanding discrepancies, cheat at play, etc.
Quote: Dodsferd
I've never investigated players for AP on our VLTs or slots. It's never been a concern.
When you say AP here are you talking about 'hacking' and cheating or is AP here more like player card abuse and ticket pulling?
Quote: mrcleanWhen you say AP here are you talking about 'hacking' and cheating or is AP here more like player card abuse and ticket pulling?
I'd consider AP to be machine sniping for video poker. There really isn't much you can do short of actually cheating the machine. In regards to the card abuse, it's not my concern. Ticket theft certainly is, and we investigate instances of fishing for tickets on a regular basis.
Machine manipulation in terms of "hacking" or physical alteration are things I haven't experienced before. I've seen a number of machines damaged via physical abuse or attempts at devices, but nothing ever successful. Our regulations also have us investigate large jackpots, to ensure legitimacy. The machine voids any anomalies anyways, so it's fairly self sufficient in that regard.
Quote: EvenBobI reminds me of the surv guy who wrote The
Black Dome a couple years ago. He said people in
surv don't get paid enough to care about
anything. They are completely unproactive,
they don't go in the least bit out of their way
to improve their job. They wait till something
is right in front of them and then act on it.
http://www.richardmunchkin.com/2012/08/interview-with-t-dane-author-of-behind.html
Which reminds me of the article that Wizard wrote in response to this thread:
Advantage Players Care More (Why They Know More Than the Employees...in Some Ways)
Quote: Dodsferd
For Blackjack, it’s really not difficult to identify someone who may be counting, as any AP knows the signs themselves. We have the added advantage of having all of the play recorded, so we are able to rewind back, and count down a shoe along with the suspected players. If we determine through review that a player is in fact counting, we send word down to the pit and inform them of our findings, and anyone who’s been backed off, can tell you what happens next.
I would like to back up to this segment of your initial post, if I could, Dodsferd. At your location, does the pit initiate this action or is it initiated in surveillance? What amount of information do you need to make a positive determination? I am assuming a couple times through the bet spread, minimum to be sure money is being moved with count/advantage and not just coincidental parlaying or raising bets chasing losses.
So what length of time is that generally, 15minutes? 30 minutes? And what happens when the player exits before the evaluation is complete? What about a player that exits immediately after showing his spread a single time. Isn't that going to make it nearly impossible to definitively confirm anything?
thanx in advance for your answers and for your participation.
Quote: kewljI would like to back up to this segment of your initial post, if I could, Dodsferd. At your location, does the pit initiate this action or is it initiated in surveillance? What amount of information do you need to make a positive determination? I am assuming a couple times through the bet spread, minimum to be sure money is being moved with count/advantage and not just coincidental parlaying or raising bets chasing losses.
So what length of time is that generally, 15minutes? 30 minutes? And what happens when the player exits before the evaluation is complete? What about a player that exits immediately after showing his spread a single time. Isn't that going to make it nearly impossible to definitively confirm anything?
thanx in advance for your answers and for your participation.
I'll answer from my end... since different casinos can do it different ways.
Some times pit initiates it, some times we see it first. Generally we will run through a few decks, wait for them to show both negative and positive counts. We also keep track of if the player changes bets just with wins or losses. If they leave before we can determine for sure, we do nothing. We may keep info on file to check in the future.
Quote: kewljAt your location, does the pit initiate this action or is it initiated in surveillance?
About 60/40 for the pit to our department. We have only a select few high limit BJ tables, so if we have action that warrants our direct attention, we can spot spreads pretty easily. People are creatures of habit. After watching a few hands, you can start to understand how well someone knows basic strategy, or what their betting habits are.
Quote: kewljWhat amount of information do you need to make a positive determination?
We operate on what evidence we can see, along with what knowledge we have in regards to gaming and the known advantage play. We can't operate under speculation or any doubts. If an operator is confident enough where they believe beyond a shadow of a doubt and can prove their findings, that's when we act. It depends on whose investigating. Myself, I will count down a minimum of two to three shoes, keeping a running and true count, and charting the play verses BS and spread. If at the end, I am confident, I will indicate that to the best of my training, I would classify that particular player as either an advantage player, or as someone whose not a danger to the game.
Quote: kewljI am assuming a couple times through the bet spread, minimum to be sure money is being moved with count/advantage and not just coincidental parlaying or raising bets chasing losses.
Correct.
Quote: kewljSo what length of time is that generally, 15minutes? 30 minutes? And what happens when the player exits before the evaluation is complete? What about a player that exits immediately after showing his spread a single time. Isn't that going to make it nearly impossible to definitively confirm anything?
If I'm able, I'll spend between 30-180 minutes watching a player. If the player leaves, then that's where my analysis stops. I can keep the information and footage on hand for future reference, and continue upon the next entry (If there is one), and go from there.
Sure, if you only play half a dozen hands and spread very quickly, it may make it difficult to make an accurate call, but the house has nothing but time. In one single session, the information is worthless. In a hundred or so sessions, you'll eventually see patterns in betting habits, times, etc.
Other things considered in that particular circumstance, would be days / times / buy ins - cash outs / denominations of bills / staff on shift.
I hope this answers your questions.
Quick follow-up. Both of you indicated you would keep a partial evaluation for future reference. I assume if a player playing rated returned, again playing rated, that would immediately trigger resumption of evaluation. But what happens when the player is playing unrated? Possible you can identify him/her by facial recognition, but we keep hearing that is pretty unreliable.
In the event that you have an unidentified player, playing unrated, not matching any entries in databases, do you assign a temporary name or id to him, sort of a 'working id'?
Quote: kewljThank you both for the responses.
Quick follow-up. Both of you indicated you would keep a partial evaluation for future reference. I assume if a player playing rated returned, again playing rated, that would immediately trigger resumption of evaluation. But what happens when the player is playing unrated? Possible you can identify him/her by facial recognition, but we keep hearing that is pretty unreliable.
In the event that you have an unidentified player, playing unrated, not matching any entries in databases, do you assign a temporary name or id to him, sort of a 'working id'?
Your last paragraph made me smile. Pit personnel "name" unknown players all the time. My all time favorite was a guy that would puff out his cheeks when he was playing. He was known as blowfish for years.
And by the way, it takes me about a shoe, at the very most and rarely two to be sure someone is or isn't an Advantage Blackjack player. I've never been wrong after reviewing tape. I think it's much easier in the trenches than via cameras. Many more things to use to determine it.
ZCore13
Quote: kewljThat is my understanding Zcore, and why I asked. One of my pits friends told me code names can be anything from a personal or facial feature, maybe a distinctive tattoo, which can carry over to later visits, or something very temporary, like a Met's ball cap, or a descriptive t-shirt, which would have almost no value as far as later visits.
We'll use "Mets hat" for low limit players just to track total buy ins. Anyone that can cause some damage gets an easier to distinguish name like "blowfish" or "sasquatch" or something easily identifiable about them sO we know them every tI'm they come in.
ZCore13
Quote: Zcore13We'll use "Mets hat" for low limit players just to track total buy ins. Anyone that can cause some damage gets an easier to distinguish name like "blowfish" or "sasquatch" or something easily identifiable about them sO we know them every tI'm they come in.
ZCore13
And what happens when you think someone looks like someone famous, like say mark him down as "Andy Rooney" or "Uncle Fester" and the next pit person doesn't see it and is looking around not seeing "Andy Rooney" or "Uncle Fester". LOL.
