I Spy With My Mechanical Eye
Quote: HunterhillDodsferd, What does your casino do if an AP betting big refuses to show id? If the player says he will leave do you backroom them,call the police or just let them leave? Also do you try to get their license plate if they refuse to give id?
Call the police? Why? I know if someone doesn't want to show ID here we don't care unless they look underage. Then we may just ask them to leave.
Quote: EvenBobRead and heard many stories that say
just the opposite. Lots of grins and
high fives and fist bumps all round
when you 86 an AP. Feather in your
cap as far as management is concerned.
Just the casino world.
Your casino view sure isn't my world. We spot Aps all the time and all we do is tell them they can't play the tables. We don't even ask them to leave the casino. The only time we 86 some one is if they cause problems, become violent, that sort of thing.
And yes we are happy when we catch thieves. Nothing I hate more than the ones who steal from little old ladies on vacation. Who wouldn't be happy about that.
Call the police why? Haven't you heard about some of the cases involving casino's calling police to have AP's identified ? Google Justin Mills Maryland live if you want to see an example of what I'm talking about.Quote: MissEyeCall the police? Why? I know if someone doesn't want to show ID here we don't care unless they look underage. Then we may just ask them to leave.
Quote: HunterhillCall the police why? Haven't you heard about some of the cases involving casino's calling police to have AP's identified ? Google Justin Mills Maryland live if you want to see an example of what I'm talking about.
I haven't seen that here. We don't really care about identifying them. We get a picture and send them on their way. If we can identify them, great, if not, no big deal. But I guess there are some weird gung ho casinos.
Quote: MissEyeYour casino view sure isn't my world. We spot Aps all the time and all we do is tell them they can't play the tables.
Sure it's your world. Telling an AP he can't
play his game in your casino is the same
thing as kicking him out. "Hey, come on in.
Just don't be smarter than we are because
we don't like that.'
Quote: mcallister3200Now we know that MissEye most definitely doesn't work for a CET casino (don't 86 AP)
No I don't :)
Quote: EvenBobSure it's your world. Telling an AP he can't
play his game in your casino is the same
thing as kicking him out. "Hey, come on in.
Just don't be smarter than we are because
we don't like that.'
Has nothing to do with intelligence. It's everything to do with the business model. It's a financial decision being made from the upper management. You don't have to like it.
You're not under any obligation to play.
Quote: MissEyeYour casino view sure isn't my world. We spot Aps all the time and all we do is tell them they can't play the tables. We don't even ask them to leave the casino. The only time we 86 some one is if they cause problems, become violent, that sort of thing.
And yes we are happy when we catch thieves. Nothing I hate more than the ones who steal from little old ladies on vacation. Who wouldn't be happy about that.
See this is what I find odd. I though you said you worked at a strip location? I cant think of any strip location that hasn't 86'ed a slot/VP AP. Even very small non strip casinos 86 AP's . Every place from Eureka to 7-11's have 86'ed AP's (no cheating, just legitimate AP).
What dose someone at your level make per year?
You can spot machine pros but you don't care about them. Why? Why care about card counters but not other AP? Isn't money lost, money lost?
How do you spot an AP who isn't playing table games?
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Question to both our security experts.. I know Griffin services isn't widely used anymore, however they were used widely and the the go too company for casinos, until their problems. They helped casinos set a significant amount of standard protocol that's still used and referred to today. Can you elaborate on that? What old Griffin policies, tools,rules and resources have or do you refer to in order to help aid you. If you said your surveillance room didn't have an old copy of a griffin book and protocol I would be shocked.
Quote: AxelWolfSee this is what I find odd. I though you said you worked at a strip location? I cant think of any strip location that hasn't 86'ed a slot/VP AP. Even very small non strip casinos 86 AP's . Every place from Eureka to 7-11's have 86'ed AP's (no cheating, just legitimate AP).
What dose someone at your level make per year?
You can spot machine pros but you don't care about them. Why? Why care about card counters but not other AP? Isn't money lost, money lost?
How do you spot an AP who isn't playing table games?
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Question to both our security experts.. I know Griffin services isn't widely used anymore, however they were used widely and the the go too company for casinos, until their problems. They helped casinos set a significant amount of standard protocol that's still used and referred to today. Can you elaborate on that? What old Griffin policies, tools,rules and resources have or do you refer to in order to help aid you. If you said your surveillance room didn't have an old copy of a griffin book and protocol I would be shocked.
I realize this post wasn't directed towards me, though I'd like to answer if I may;
In the places I've worked, the slot drop is usually much larger than the tables. We earn our profits much more from slots than tables, yet the focus is almost purely on table retention. It seems to me, that the management is more interested in AP in regards to tables, as they lose half their revenue from slots to Gaming. On the tables, they share the profits with the ridiculous "charity" groups that come through the building.
I've never investigated players for AP on our VLTs or slots. It's never been a concern.
Quote: AxelWolfSee this is what I find odd. I though you said you worked at a strip location? I cant think of any strip location that hasn't 86'ed a slot/VP AP. Even very small non strip casinos 86 AP's . Every place from Eureka to 7-11's have 86'ed AP's (no cheating, just legitimate AP).
What dose someone at your level make per year?
You can spot machine pros but you don't care about them. Why? Why care about card counters but not other AP? Isn't money lost, money lost?
How do you spot an AP who isn't playing table games?
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Question to both our security experts.. I know Griffin services isn't widely used anymore, however they were used widely and the the go too company for casinos, until their problems. They helped casinos set a significant amount of standard protocol that's still used and referred to today. Can you elaborate on that? What old Griffin policies, tools,rules and resources have or do you refer to in order to help aid you. If you said your surveillance room didn't have an old copy of a griffin book and protocol I would be shocked.
I focus on what casino management requests. You would have to ask a general manager why we don't focus on slots. It's probably what Dodsferd explained. I currently work Downtown but will be transfering to the strip in a few weeks. I have no reason to make up the policies I've encountered. We just don't 86 people unless they become problems. Some do become irrate when asked to stop playing and they get 86ed. I've also seen some of the smaller casinos according to reports 86 some card counters when they return daily. Anyway, that has been my experience so far.
There's a wide range of pay depending on experience. Anywhere from $15-$30 and hour and more for management.
Quote: Dodsferd
You're not under any obligation to play.
Sure I am. Last time I looked, my local
Walmart wasn't offering my game.
And my question concerning Griffin?
Again, I realize you don't currently use their services but most likely have in the past.
Quote: AxelWolf"Transfer" That's a very telling word.
And my question concerning Griffin?
Again, I realize you don't currently use their services but most likely have in the past.
Never heard of them, I can't comment on any of what you requested regarding that... Company is it?
Well I'm very surprised.Quote: DodsferdNever heard of them, I can't comment on any of what you requested regarding that... Company is it?
They started it all when it comes to information sharing about counters and AP's and cheats.
Anyone in the gaming industry should know who they are, ESPECIALLY surveillance and security people. Its like being in the fashion industry and not knowing who Ralph Lauren is.
You heard of the Black book? Its also sometimes referred to as the griffin book, but I think people get them confused.
Griffin investigations was a company popular in the 90's into the 2000's( I think 2005 was the last I remember having a second thought about them)
They offered their services to casinos. They focused on advantage players, counters and cheaters. They had the Griffin book that was a very very detailed. It included pictures and full details of each incident. It would be like reading a complete police report of people suspected of being a threat to casinos. It featured advantage players including slots, VP, card counters, and cheats. (some very interesting stories and stuff you couldn't imagine).
They had a detailed guide to help casino surveillance as well.
They used a up to date computer service as well. Casinos could call in and they would run pictures and names of people.
One guy had a very lucrative casino scam. They said he would've probably never been caught had he not pissed off his GF. She got mad and she told the casino what he was doing and where he would be next.
It didn't matter if the information was accurate. They lumped legitimate Advantage players in with cheats. If you were in the Griffin book then you were considered a cheater. I think they lost a defamation lawsuit and went bankrupted. I don't know the details about that, I heard they are still in business on a small scale.
Search the internet for Andy Anderson and griffin investigation. This guy makes Dan and his attitude about AP's look mild compared to his.
Quote: AxelWolf- snip -
I looked them up, and from what I can see, they impacted most of the US, along with LV itself with their techniques and information. The company(/ies) I work(ed) for, operate outside the US. We've had training material present in the room that no doubt had been influenced by Griffin, though their actual publications haven't been something I've ever opened. If I had, I don't remember it.
I'll do some research on their lawsuits at some point, as I would enjoy reading it.
Are you for real, Dodsferd?
Quote: OnceDearEven I've heard of Griffin and I'm a Brit.
Are you for real, Dodsferd?
I'm just gonna say...
No, I am not gonna say...
Quote: OnceDearEven I've heard of Griffin and I'm a Brit.
Are you for real, Dodsferd?
Everybody in surv in the US and outside the US
has heard of Griffin, they were a force in the
business. It is odd he's never heard of it. Very
odd.
Quote: OnceDearEven I've heard of Griffin and I'm a Brit.
Are you for real, Dodsferd?
Doesn't interest me, never has. Silly question really.
Quote: TwoFeathersATLI'm just gonna say...
No, I am not gonna say...
Good, keep your mouth shut.
Are we going back to flaming me now?
Quote: DodsferdDoesn't interest me, never has. Silly question really.
How could it interest you if you never heard
of it till yesterday?
Quote: Mission146At least TwoFeathers is only insinuating, but let's try not to have any more insinuations or demands for anyone to keep their mouths shut, please. Thank you in advance.
Will do.
It's getting frustrating to attempt a response here when the tide goes from positive to negative in such quick succession. I'm getting quite sick of seeing the constant unwarranted attacks.
Edit:
Spelling & word usage
I mean, I assume people are just trained to do their jobs, not necessarily given a History of Surveillance class. Maybe they're mentioned in orientation videos, but the next one of those I pay attention to would be the first.
Quote: Mission146I don't know if you've ever mentioned how long you've been in the business, but I do know Griffin Investigations filed for bankruptcy in 2005 and has not been as prominent since then. If you've been in the business less than a decade, and certainly if fewer than five years, then I would say it's reasonable that you may not have heard of them.
I mean, I assume people are just trained to do their jobs, not necessarily given a History of Surveillance class. Maybe they're mentioned in orientation videos, but the next one of those I pay attention to would be the first.
I thought I've mentioned it, but I've been employed in Surveillance since '09-'10. My initial training was unorthodox, with the essentials being in the equipment usage and the in-house rules. Some of the publications I can recall, were from Bill Zender and Steve Forte. Most of what was taught to any of our staff, was just verbally passed on from personal experiences.
Quote: DodsferdWill do.
It's getting frustrating to attempt a response here when the tide goes from positive to negative in such quick succession. I'm getting quite sick of seeing the constant unwarranted attacks.
Edit:
Spelling & word usage
Imagine how everyone else feels! Here you are, saying you work in surveillance.....yet you've never heard of GRIFFIN????? Sheeesh! Give me a break... What is everyone to do, say, "Oh of course he hasn't heard of Griffin....it was never popular....especially not in surveillance rooms of casinos..."
I knew what Griffin was before I was old enough to gamble.....get you've never heard of Griffin..... Hmmm.....
So for example, there would be a way to verify Dodsferd employment in the Surveillance industry and when he posts it would be something like:
Dodsford
Verified Surveillance Operator
member since: June 10, 2015
Threads: 1
Posts: 68
This site has a lot of people from the casino business. Management, inventors, mathematicians, regulatory, dealers, etc, etc. I don't think many sites can boast the talent that regularly posts here. I think it would be good, especially for new members to see what a wide range of contributors visit here.
ZCore13
Quote: RSImagine how everyone else feels! Here you are, saying you work in surveillance.....yet you've never heard of GRIFFIN????? Sheeesh! Give me a break... What is everyone to do, say, "Oh of course he hasn't heard of Griffin....it was never popular....especially not in surveillance rooms of casinos..."
I knew what Griffin was before I was old enough to gamble.....get you've never heard of Griffin..... Hmmm.....
Sure, I can understand that. What do you suggest I do? Lie?
Quote: Zcore13I believe Dodsferd is who he says he is, but I've thought for a while that it would be nice if the site had system in place to verify members and then show that information under their name when they post.
So for example, there would be a way to verify Dodsferd employment in the Surveillance industry and when he posts it would be something like:
Dodsford
Verified Surveillance Operator
member since: June 10, 2015
Threads: 1
Posts: 68
This site has a lot of people from the casino business. Management, inventors, mathematicians, regulatory, dealers, etc, etc. I don't think many sites can boast the talent that regularly posts here. I think it would be good, especially for new members to see what a wide range of contributors visit here.
ZCore13
And yet, I've offered from the start to provide whatever proof anyone wants. Nobody seems interested in taking me up on that, yet there really isn't much improvement.
Quote: RSImagine how everyone else feels! Here you are, saying you work in surveillance.....yet you've never heard of GRIFFIN????? Sheeesh! Give me a break... What is everyone to do, say, "Oh of course he hasn't heard of Griffin....it was never popular....especially not in surveillance rooms of casinos..."
I knew what Griffin was before I was old enough to gamble.....get you've never heard of Griffin..... Hmmm.....
Griffin has no relevance in Surveillance these days. If you were not in the business when they did, there is know reason to know about them now. Why would his Supervisors/Trainer talk about something that makes no difference in his job?
That's like criticizing someone who plays for the Dallas Cowboys today not knowing who owned the team before Jerry Jones. No relevance to their life or career.
ZCore13
Quote: Zcore13Griffin has no relevance in Surveillance these days.
Even so, the old Griffin books are still used
worldwide. If you're in the book and gambling
in the Caribbean, they'll kick you out. Of
course they used them in Canada, they
used them everywhere. AP's and cheats are
well known to have traveled all over the
world. There's a story in Gambling Wizards
where a counter got caught in the Bahamas
for being in the book. To them it meant he
was a criminal and he almost went to prison.
Quote: EvenBobEven so, the old Griffin books are still used
worldwide. If you're in the book and gambling
in the Caribbean, they'll kick you out. Of
course they used them in Canada, they
used them everywhere. AP's and cheats are
well known to have traveled all over the
world. There's a story in Gambling Wizards
where a counter got caught in the Bahamas
for being in the book. To them it meant he
was a criminal and he almost went to prison.
I'll ask on Monday if my Surveillance Department has a Griffin book. I'd be surprised if they do. I'd also say chances are good the person I ask will say "What is a Griffin Book?"
ZCore13
Question: Do you have cameras on "the counting room" (or its equivalent) in your casino, and if so, who other than you and the other regular surveillance staff monitors them?
What is in place in your casino to prevent The Skim?
Quote: Zcore13I'll ask on Monday if my Surveillance Department has a Griffin book.
And they're still in business.
http://www.griffininvestigations.com/products.html
As MrV says, hang in there. A lot of us are interested in hearing what you have to say. Thanks!
+1Quote: beachbumbabsDodsferd,
As MrV says, hang in there. A lot of us are interested in hearing what you have to say. Thanks!
Quote: MrVDodsferd, hang in there.
Question: Do you have cameras on "the counting room" (or its equivalent) in your casino, and if so, who other than you and the other regular surveillance staff monitors them?
What is in place in your casino to prevent The Skim?
We have two vaults, one used for Slots, and the other for Tables. They're both filled with static and PTZ cameras, and watched very carefully.
The counter tops are what appear to be plexiglass, transparent. There are dedicated staff whose only job description is to be in that room and handle the cash that enters from the drops. They work in teams, and our house rules don't allow anyone to be in that room alone.
Gaming regulations specifically prohibit anyone with access to the vaults to have access to Surveillance, and vice versa. It's about the only place in the building I've never been inside.
We do regular audits of both the numbers, and the staff who count those numbers. Each deposit made is verified by the staff in the count rooms, as well as the surveillance staff on shift. Those numbers are all recorded and the footage saved.
Quote: kewljZcore13, are you based in Vegas? If not are you able to say what area (very general terms...like Midwest) you are in? If you are not comfortable doing so, I completely understand.
Nothing to hide. I've said many times I'm in Arizona.
ZCore13
When Griffin went through bankruptcy, OSN, which just happened to be growing and expanding at just the right time, swooped in and basically took over Vegas. When the bankruptcy was settled and Griffin re-emerged, a skeleton of the company they were (basically Bev and a couple techies). They managed to get some clients (casinos) in some of the newer smaller markets that were emerging, in the Midwest. Basically I am told they were peddling a 10-15 year old database. Bev seems to think this database, much of which is outdated, is still relevant and has value.
In the last year or two, they tried to get back into the Vegas market. They were offering various casinos several months of free service. At first there were almost no takers, but it is my understanding they do have a small number of clients (casinos) in the Vegas market now. Smaller independents, none of the 'big boys'. It isn't clear if they are paying customers or just using the free service.
My friend who is in the pit of one of the 'big boys' on the strip described the database that he saw when they offered a trial free service as the 10-15 year old Griffin database, with a few minor updates to a handful of players and new players, that appeared to have been lifted directly from the competing service OSN. The wordings were almost identical. That was his description and accusation, not mine. I never saw the database.
Quote: Zcore13Nothing to hide. I've said many times I'm in Arizona.
ZCore13
Ok, thank you. Yes you have mentioned that before. I don't know Griffin's status in Arizona. Probably not, because most of the casinos have an Indian connection right? So OSN is likely the big player there.
Quote: kewljOk, thank you. Yes you have mentioned that before. I don't know Griffin's status in Arizona. Probably not, because most of the casinos have an Indian connection right? So OSN is likely the big player there.
Yes, I believe OSN would be the source of choice. I've talked to a few in the know at a couple of bigger Strip casinos and they use OSN as well.
ZCore13
Quote: DodsferdDoesn't interest me, never has. Silly question really.
Good, keep your mouth shut.
Are we going back to flaming me now?
Actually Dodsferd, I was about to gently chide OnceDear, and perhaps a couple others by implication, but then just decided to stay out of that part of the conversation. Sorry I was mis-understood, not just by you but others as well. I had been drinking a bit, and though that is not necessarily a good excuse, it is one I can regularly use legitimately ;-)
I got no problem with Dodsferd.
I never heard of Griffin either, but I've never worked in the casino industry either.
Happy Sunday to all, I have been to church and asked for forgiveness for my sins, again. 2F
Quote: TwoFeathersATL
Happy Sunday to all, I have been to church and asked for forgiveness for my sins, again. 2F
I forgive you 2F. I know it isn't my forgiveness you were after, but I just wanted you to know you have received it anyway. :) That's the kind of guy I am, forgive, live and let live.
Just curious, do you believe you need to go to church to be forgiven?
In my view church is a scam. Self serving profit making enterprises. That is not restricted to any single denomination either. I don't think you need to go to church to have a relationship with god. I talk to god multiple times each day in no specific setting. He is out and about and not 'holed up' in some church. :)
When I was a young boy, we went to church weekly on Sunday morning. The church had a confined parking area that really was the blacktopped recess recreational area for the church's catholic school. The area was fenced in, with a single gate for entering and exiting. Probably held 70-80 cars. Well, I don't have to tell you the exit was a nightmare. People honking and cursing each other. And this was their very first act after leaving church. Lol. So wat was the point in going to church? :/
Quote: kewljI forgive you 2F. I know it isn't my forgiveness you were after, but I just wanted you to know you have received it anyway. :) That's the kind of guy I am, forgive, live and let live.
Just curious, do you believe you need to go to church to be forgiven?
In my view church is a scam. Self serving profit making enterprises. That is not restricted to any single denomination either. I don't think you need to go to church to have a relationship with god. I talk to god multiple times each day in no specific setting. He is out and about and not 'holed up' in some church. :)
When I was a young boy, we went to church weekly on Sunday morning. The church had a confined parking area that really was the blacktopped recess recreational area for the church's catholic school. The area was fenced in, with a single gate for entering and exiting. Probably held 70-80 cars. Well, I don't have to tell you the exit was a nightmare. People honking and cursing each other. And this was their very first act after leaving church. Lol. So wat was the point in going to church? :/
My wife likes to go to church. I try to keep the wife happy, usually. I'm pretty much a heathen myself, at least in the eyes of organized religion ;-)
Quote: kewlj...In my view church is a scam. Self serving profit making enterprises...
Religion in general is the largest scam ever conceived by man. It's absolutely sad and amazing that even the smartest people on earth fall for this garbage. But that's another topic and for another day :-X
Way back when I first read anything from Zcore I had no doubt he was legitimate.
I do find it odd that Dodsfred didn't know about Griffin but if he is from Canada(Sorry) and didn't start until 09, I could believe that to be possible.
He could've researched it (good luck just googling Griffin without investigating or Andy Anderson) and used that to make up some BS
out of the most recent members, if i were to have to choose one, I would probably choose Dodsferd.
Anybody claiming to work in Vegas in surveillance(That's extremely valuable) I can probably ask a few questions that would confirm it to be true. It may not disprove but it would absolutely confirm.
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If anyone has any real serious interest in Griffin PM me. Known members only.
