I noticed in general BJ players that are Asian.....
Not hitting 16 VS 10 isn't that bad Most people don't do it. AAMAF A pitboss may watch for that move and categorize you as a skilled player.Quote: Funguy21Ok, before everyone says that this is racist, let me explain that I observed years of Blackjack sessions in which in general Asian players do not hit 16 vs dealer 10. I am asking if this is a cultural thing? Another reason I am asking is, if a certain culture loves to gamble, why won't they take the time and learn optimal strategy to maximize the probability of coming out a possible winner every once in a while. I welcome any feedback that you have!
What I will say as a hypothesis, is that Asians do prefer safety, and are more of an honor culture. Also, there is the idea that you should be humble and not arrogant. So in the 16v10 situation, hitting seems wreckless as the most likely outcome is a bust. Standing sort of forces the dealer to be you, instead of defeating yourself. There is a sense, even if it is a small sense, of shame and embarassment in your cards and bet being taken as the other players play out the hand. Just my thoughts. Asians like to gamble but that doesn't necessarily mean they are more willing to take risk. Take pai gow, where lots of hands end in pushes. Anyway, an interesting area of thought- culture and gambling.
Sorry if 16 isn't that bad and tons of if you keep changing lowe it to fit your perception eventually you'll have a case. Why didn't you just say 14 -16 in the first place?Quote: Funguy21Ahh I see, I also noticed the same players stand on a hard 14 vs a 10, and I promise you they were not counting.
Quote: surrender88sHaha, I am an Asian and I favor not hitting 16v10 since it's the lower variance play. Even the numbers will tell you that it is a very close call. A positive count tells you to stand on 16v10, so even if a player who wasn't counting played this "wrong" every time, the increase in house edge would be tiny.
What I will say as a hypothesis, is that Asians do prefer safety, and are more of an honor culture. Also, there is the idea that you should be humble and not arrogant. So in the 16v10 situation, hitting seems wreckless as the most likely outcome is a bust. Standing sort of forces the dealer to be you, instead of defeating yourself. There is a sense, even if it is a small sense, of shame and embarassment in your cards and bet being taken as the other players play out the hand. Just my thoughts. Asians like to gamble but that doesn't necessarily mean they are more willing to take risk. Take pai gow, where lots of hands end in pushes. Anyway, an interesting area of thought- culture and gambling.
you are pushing it. it got nothing to do with culture or whatever
Asians are generally "not scientific". They figured if they hit 16 vs 10 they had a good chance of busting. Therefore they stay. That's it. What they don't realize is that the dealer's chance of making it is even better. Simply put, they don't know the math.
In the west most people have heard of BS, even if they don't know the details. In Asia most people have no idea what BS is. Their idea of counting card is some genius could "count" and know what card is coming out next.
*edit* can't believe you just accused Asians of being non scientific and not knowing math. just wow.
Quote: andysifyou are pushing it. it got nothing to do with culture or whatever
Asians are generally "not scientific". They figured if they hit 16 vs 10 they had a good chance of busting. Therefore they stay. That's it. What they don't realize is that the dealer's chance of making it is even better. Simply put, they don't know the math.
In the west most people have heard of BS, even if they don't know the details. In Asia most people have no idea what BS is. Their idea of counting card is some genius could "count" and know what card is coming out next.
I don't agree, Asian people in general have a gift for math and music, because(in general) they value education more, and are able to study.(Goes back to family honor) and actually wanting to have their parents be proud of them, and there is a good amount of healthy pressure from family to do very well in education.
Quote: Funguy21I don't agree, Asian people in general have a gift for math and music, because(in general) they value education more, and are able to study.(Goes back to family honor) and actually wanting to have their parents be proud of them, and there is a good amount of healthy pressure from family to do very well in education.
Quote: surrender88sNow here's a guy that understands honor culture.
*edit* can't believe you just accused Asians of being non scientific and not knowing math. just wow.
no disrespect, as I am, myself, Asian.
Let me rephrase it. Asians are bipolar. Some are indeed very good at math. BUT the masses that frequent the casino are generally not.
Quote: andysifno disrespect, as I am, myself, Asian.
Let me rephrase it. Asians are bipolar. Some are indeed very good at math. BUT the masses that frequent the casino are generally not.
I think it would surprise you that for a 3 card composition 16 BS says to stand.
Anyway BJ is not their game. Baccarat and Roulette is.
Quote: Funguy21Ok, before everyone says that this is racist, let me explain that I observed years of Blackjack sessions in which in general Asian players do not hit 16 vs dealer 10.
Why would this "sound racist?"
Quote: AZDuffmanWhy would this "sound racist?"
Unfortunately, that's what we've become. A better question would be why feel the need to preface the question the way he did? If that's what he observed, or thought he observed, why can't he just say it? Someone will be there to call him on it either way in this no win situation. If I said I observed a certain demographic eating rice, would that be racist? Sadly, it could be to some but, interestingly, probably not to the ones I said it about.
Why is a 13 year old boy allowed to use the girl's bathroom in a public school? Now I'm the insensitive one. This just goes on and on and the one thing usually lacking in these cases is good old common sense. I hope no one is offended that I don't agree with little Johnny using the girl's room.
I've played blackjack all over the world and have not seen anything specific to a certain race or ethnicity but I never looked for it. Superstition and misinformation do not discriminate.
Quote: Funguy21...do not hit 16 vs dealer 10. I am asking if this is a cultural thing?...I welcome any feedback that you have!
Another play to watch for is standing on 16 vs dealer 7. I think it would be fun to do a rigorous demographic study for both of these plays.
Quote: 1BBIf I said I observed a certain demographic eating rice, would that be racist?
That depends on the demographic, and which words you use to describe them.
I think its partly a selective memory thing. You probably noticed A certain race playing this way. You pondered why then came up with a conclusion and started watching Asians more.Quote: Funguy21Ahh I see, I also noticed the same players stand on a hard 14 vs a 10, and I promise you they were not counting.
Take out any player that has a understanding of BS. Take all the ploppies and I bet they all play the same.
After a bit more thinking, I forgot to mention that Asians are more superstitious and less about strategy. If you take that into account perhaps you're on to something.Quote: Funguy21Axel, that is a great point, but it is hard not to focus on a certain race, when that race loves to gamble, so by sheer numbers you see more Asian people gambling than any other race, that is a fact. I just like to study people in general, and I find it remarkable that you have often generations of Asians gambling together! I think its great, sort of like a past time, like in the USA, you have families go to see a sporting event.
Honestly I usually don't play games that Asians love the most. I don't notice a ton of them playing BJ. If we can just get the Asians to demand better odds in the casinos we might save everything from going to crap. We can call it AFBO (Asians for better odds)
Also, as we say "Asians", I tend to see a lot of chinese and vietnamese. I see less koreans and japanese. There is a lot of difference between different Asian cultures.
I played baccarat before but found it to be annoying since people take forever revealing cards and the 5% commission is something I hate paying for. Although winning 2 for 1 with a matchplay is pretty damn awesome. Sometimes if I will be in a casino for a while or have free time I make DP bets on matchplays on craps just for suspense.
Get out of here with that "it's usually the nerdy white guy with glasses with a pocket protector" playing video poker. Ill bet you ,next time we are in a casino, you cannot find 3 people playing VP that fit that description, with a few passes though the casino.Quote: djatcMy observation is that Asians love baccarat, Europeans/Middle Eastern people love roulette, and Americans love blackjack. Not to say the paths don't cross from game to game but it's pretty much the majority at any one of these table games. As for video poker it's usually the nerdy white guy with glasses with a pocket protector, and for slots old ladies. Black people usually love craps.
I played baccarat before but found it to be annoying since people take forever revealing cards and the 5% commission is something I hate paying for. Although winning 2 for 1 with a matchplay is pretty damn awesome. Sometimes if I will be in a casino for a while or have free time I make DP bets on matchplays on craps just for suspense.
Quote: AxelWolfGet out of here with that "it's usually the nerdy white guy with glasses with a pocket protector" playing video poker. Ill bet you ,next time we are in a casino, you cannot find 3 people playing VP that fit that description, with a few passes though the casino.
duh I was making an extremely stereotypical comment about "smart" video poker players.
Quote: djatcduh I was making an extremely stereotypical comment about "smart" video poker players.
In my limited experience, they look like grandmothers.
btw, anyone can tell me how to make a new post, thx.
Quote: djatcAs for video poker it's usually the nerdy white guy with glasses with a pocket protector...
That is so true! Not to forget they have replaced the propeller cap with the tinfoil hat. Just ask Axel.
White people ruined BJ. If it wasn't for them we wouldn't be having this 6:5 CSM Hit on soft 17 crap non sense that is polluting the Strip. We would still be at one deck 2:1 non CSM back in the good old days when they would whack you in the knees in the back alley. If you all like to know the MGM establishments have been following the herd. This is what white people like to do. Once they find something they like to become all self-righteous and spread it like some Christian gospel to the masses. In the end they always ruin it for everyone. And they call this progress. They should be more like Indian people like me. I mean you don't see someone like Sanjay Patel trying outwardly spreading the worldly secrets to the world. We just make things happen quietly keeping to ourselves respecting everyone and enjoy the fruits of our labor. Mother Nature never revealed her secrets so why so I? You white folks can learn a thing or two from that philosophy.
Yet they know how to make good meatloaf and invented the sweat whisking technology making my workouts much more comfortable so all is forgiven.
Quote: P99most East/S.E. player, even very experienced stand 15 & 16 verus dlr any up card.
btw, anyone can tell me how to make a new post, thx.
Welcome to the forum, P99. Glad to have you aboard!
I have not noticed what you have regarding staying on those hands. I don't really pay attention to it all that much though. I know that I usually couldn't tell you how many hands in a row I lost, how many pushes or how many times the dealer got blackjack. If someone did play that way, I don't think I'd call them experienced.
Your asking how to start a new thread? Click on forums above, scroll down to the different headings on the left and click onto new thread when you find your topic.
I'd like to take a moment to tell all new members to familiarize themselves with the forum rules to prevent being innocently caught in a loophole or technicality that could result in a suspension or worse. Good luck.
Quote: DMSCRThat is so true! Not to forget they have replaced the propeller cap with the tinfoil hat. Just ask Axel.
White people ruined BJ. If it wasn't for them we wouldn't be having this 6:5 CSM Hit on soft 17 crap non sense that is polluting the Strip. We would still be at one deck 2:1 non CSM back in the good old days when they would whack you in the knees in the back alley. If you all like to know the MGM establishments have been following the herd. This is what white people like to do. Once they find something they like to become all self-righteous and spread it like some Christian gospel to the masses. In the end they always ruin it for everyone. And they call this progress. They should be more like Indian people like me. I mean you don't see someone like Sanjay Patel trying outwardly spreading the worldly secrets to the world. We just make things happen quietly keeping to ourselves respecting everyone and enjoy the fruits of our labor. Mother Nature never revealed her secrets so why so I? You white folks can learn a thing or two from that philosophy.
Yet they know how to make good meatloaf and invented the sweat whisking technology making my workouts much more comfortable so all is forgiven.
Very few things in human history have not been created or discovered by the amazingly innovative Caucasians.
Only God created more, but he had a head start.
I'll take bad Blackjack rules over living like a cave man any day.
Quote: TankoVery few things in human history have not been created or discovered by the amazingly innovative Caucasians.
Only God created more, but he had a head start.
I'll take bad Blackjack rules over living like a cave man any day.
Yes the meatloaf and the sweat whisking technology I am so fond of. I guess you missed that sentence and cherry picked my post with a Nietzsche approach.
The prime time Pleasure Pits have gotten to you too! NOOOOOOOO!!!!!!!!! I see you really enjoy that 6:5 payout as long there is cleavage. Don't know why you BJ/21 folks just sit there and take it and let these casinos slowly rip your souls one implementation at a time. You folks should be raising major hell like the baccarat clientele over at the Encore in 2011. If you have to make rent and put food on the table your lively hood is at stake. You BJ and poker warriors need to both take a stand. I don't want you guys to lose hope then come and pollute my baccarat tables as your last resort where at the moment you like to make fun of.
You are going to take the God comment back. http://www.amazon.com/God-Wants-Dead-Sean-Hastings/dp/0979601118
Haven't you watched Supernatural? God has left us and everyone else in the universe to fend for ourselves.
Quote: TankoI'll take bad Blackjack rules over living like a cave man any day.
What?
If I bet a mastodon, and I get a blackjack, I want to get paid one and a half mastodons, not 1.2 mastodons.
Quote: DieterWhat?
If I bet a mastodon, and I get a blackjack, I want to get paid one and a half mastodons, not 1.2 mastodons.
Maybe he prefers to be paid 6:5 over 3:2? Or if it is 2:1 he would actually reject the payout and return the money back to casino? To Tanko only being paid 6:5 is real money all else is not. For that I thank his parents for raising him so properly.
Back in the days pre-Thorp it was mostly/all single deck with a 2:1 payout. Then it became 3:2 with Thorp in the scene. Now it is 6:5. So in retrospect being paid 3:2 you are still being ripped off.
So much for the Wizard of Vegas being a math board. Maybe Hooked on Phonics. LOL. Or bring back the Ebonics with a Quantum Mechanics bent. Ha ha.
Quote: DMSCR
Back in the days pre-Thorp it was mostly/all single deck with a 2:1 payout. Then it became 3:2 with Thorp in the scene. Now it is 6:5. So in retrospect being paid 3:2 you are still being ripped off.
Wait....is this true? 2:1 was the normal payout at one time? Way before my time, but I never heard that. I had always heard 3:2. I thought 2:1 was reserved for some promotions and coupon deals.
Can some of you guys born before cable TV and men on the moon, verify this?
I need to know when to set my hot tub time machine for. I always though I would have loved Vegas and blackjack in the 80's and 90's which was the early part of my life, but pre-blackjack for me. Maybe I need to go back to the 50's and 60's instead. wait...was there electricity, air conditioning (I don't like to sweat) and indoor plumbing then. Lol.
Without the white man you probably wouldn't have BJ in the first place it certainly wouldn't be as popular.Quote: DMSCRThat is so true! Not to forget they have replaced the propeller cap with the tinfoil hat. Just ask Axel.
White people ruined BJ. If it wasn't for them we wouldn't be having this 6:5 CSM Hit on soft 17 crap non sense that is polluting the Strip. We would still be at one deck 2:1 non CSM back in the good old days when they would whack you in the knees in the back alley. If you all like to know the MGM establishments have been following the herd. This is what white people like to do. Once they find something they like to become all self-righteous and spread it like some Christian gospel to the masses. In the end they always ruin it for everyone. And they call this progress. They should be more like Indian people like me. I mean you don't see someone like Sanjay Patel trying outwardly spreading the worldly secrets to the world. We just make things happen quietly keeping to ourselves respecting everyone and enjoy the fruits of our labor. Mother Nature never revealed her secrets so why so I? You white folks can learn a thing or two from that philosophy.
Yet they know how to make good meatloaf and invented the sweat whisking technology making my workouts much more comfortable so all is forgiven.
Just stick to baccarat and the ugly dealers.
No wonder GreasyJohn won all the time, that fat bastard was getting 2: 1Quote: kewljWait....is this true? 2:1 was the normal payout at one time? Way before my time, but I never heard that. I had always heard 3:2. I thought 2:1 was reserved for some promotions and coupon deals.
Can some of you guys born before cable TV and men on the moon, verify this?
I need to know when to set my hot tub time machine for. I always though I would have loved Vegas and blackjack in the 80's and 90's which was the early part of my life, but pre-blackjack for me. Maybe I need to go back to the 50's and 60's instead. wait...was there electricity, air conditioning (I don't like to sweat) and indoor plumbing then. Lol.
Quote: AxelWolfNo wonder GreasyJohn won all the time, that fat bastard was getting 2: 1
Really! Hey with 2:1....speed count MIGHT even be a "winner". :)
Quote: DMSCRYes the meatloaf and the sweat whisking technology I am so fond of. I guess you missed that sentence and cherry picked my post with a Nietzsche approach.
This one.
Quote: DMSCRYet they know how to make good meatloaf and invented the sweat whisking technology making my workouts much more comfortable so all is forgiven.
No sweat.
Quote: kewljWait....is this true? 2:1 was the normal payout at one time? Way before my time, but I never heard that. I had always heard 3:2. I thought 2:1 was reserved for some promotions and coupon deals.
Can some of you guys born before cable TV and men on the moon, verify this?
I need to know when to set my hot tub time machine for. I always though I would have loved Vegas and blackjack in the 80's and 90's which was the early part of my life, but pre-blackjack for me. Maybe I need to go back to the 50's and 60's instead. wait...was there electricity, air conditioning (I don't like to sweat) and indoor plumbing then. Lol.
Blackjack NEVER PAID 2:1 unless it was some sort of promotion as you say.
Blackjack was originally known as Twenty-One. Then in 1912 players in the horse rooms in Evansville began being paid 3:2 if the first two cards totaled 21. And if your first two cards were made up of the Ace of Spades and either the Jack of Clubs or Spades then the holder received a 10:1 bonus. Then before long players began to distinguish between a 2-card 21 from a 3-or-more-card 21 by referring to it as a "Black Jack." Around 1917 the game of Twenty-One started to become popularly known as Black Jack.
In John Scarne's 1961 Complete Guide To Gambling this can all be found starting on page 315. And in this book they refer to the game as Black Jack. I've always wondered when, why and how the game became known as one word, Blackjack.
John Scarne is pronounced Scarney, by the way.
And I was born before men even went into space, let alone walked on the Moon. Before cable TV? How about before color TV.
Quote: DieterWhat?
If I bet a mastodon, and I get a blackjack, I want to get paid one and a half mastodons, not 1.2 mastodons.
Touche.
Quote: Avincowthere's no way blackjack was paying 2:1, even the worst players would be +EV. Unless of course there were other differences in the early game such as dealer wins ties or something crazy like that.
The rule variation where blackjack pays 2:1 has a + 2.32% expectation. With perfect basic strategy in a 6-deck shoe game the player would have an approximately 1.8% advantage, (generally speaking). So even pretty bad players, along with the "worst players" would play a losing game.
I'm not trying to nitpick because I like the theme of your post. But in a game like Blackjack where tenths of a percent in advantage make a big difference I wanted to point this out.
