What portion of NV markers are never paid back?
I personally have over a million in credit spread throughout las vegas (lines from 20 - 150K). I DON'T have that much money. If I were to go and lose my line of credit at every place I have it in vegas, I'd be broke. I also have lines of credit at individual properties that exceed the balance of the bank account that I gave them when applying for the credit. The increases were through a host, and the decisions were made based off my play, and they did no additional due diligence to make sure that I had the money to pay it (if they did they would've rejected it since the account I gave them doesn't have much money in it). I have also had additional credit given when I lost my line of credit, and it was given immediately (like, in 10 - 15 minutes. They rush to quickly do the paperwork so they can get me back playing). Obviously no due diligence is done during this.
With this "let the player lose first, worry about collecting later" practice, how much of markers drawn never get paid back?
As far as 'how many' bad markers, I was told at one of the chains, the percentage less than 10%. But I cannot say if that is the entire chain or a property and no idea of the amounts. I was told that there are far greater markers of a smaller amount than a larger amount. But what $$$ figure, I don't know.
Quote: sc15I know they can prosecute people for writing a bad check in nevada, but you can't motivate someone to pay money they don't have with criminal charges. And it's very easy to gamble away more money than you have in vegas.
I am guessing that they would prosecute you and then put you on a payment plan to repay the debt. If you missed your payments enough times I think they would actually make you spend some time in jail. I am pretty sure that is how other financial crimes are handled. You may be able to get one by them by providing a business account for the payment and then filing a bankruptcy on that business. Obviously the entity should be such that you are indemnified from having to personally guarantee it and not be responsible for it.
If there is a warrant in Nevada, is it enforceable in other states?
Quote: GWAE
If there is a warrant in Nevada, is it enforceable in other states?
I believe it is because it is not actually credit. When you sign the marker you are signing a "check" to be drawn on the account you provided. As far as I know it is against the law to write bad checks in all 50 states. If the check is over a certain amount it is usually considered a felony and not a misdemeanor.
Quote: GWAEI would be curious to how many people get the marker, lose it, then go to the next store and get double the marker and try to win it back or try to cash out without them clearing their marker.
If there is a warrant in Nevada, is it enforceable in other states?
A lot of people have multiple lines of credit in vegas. It's very easy to go in over your head if you go around town dumping all your credit lines.
I doubt that the bankruptcy court would treat a casino marker any differently than a regular bad check, and bad checks can typically be discharged in bankruptcy.
Quote: MrVPeople should have no problem discharging the marker debt and avoid criminal prosecution if they successfully file and complete a chapter 7 bankruptcy action.
I doubt that the bankruptcy court would treat a casino marker any differently than a regular bad check, and bad checks can typically be discharged in bankruptcy.
you can't discharge criminal fraud charges in bankruptcy.
Quote: sc15you can't discharge criminal fraud charges in bankruptcy.
Good point. But when does inability to pay a marker become fraud? What if you lose your job or become ill?
Quote: AlanMendelsonGood point. But when does inability to pay a marker become fraud? What if you lose your job or become ill?
When you sign the marker without funds to pay it.
This isn't a loan agreement where you pay the casino back out of your paycheck a little bit at a time. A marker is a negotiable instrument, you're supposed to have the money ALREADY in your bank account so that if they were to deposit it immediately it would clear. Realistically you're supposed to have the cash somewhere available to pay for it. Signing a marker knowing you don't have the money to cover it is fraud.
Yeah, you're screwed once the DA gets it, but a debtor should be able to discharge the debt if they file Chapter 7 before they are charged with a crime.
Quote: Baccaratfrom79Solve all problems. Play with cash or front money. Period.
Both are inconvenient compared to credit. I never know where I'm going to play when I'm in vegas, so I have credit accounts everywhere and those are available whenever I need it on a whim. Cash is a hassle and dangerous to carry a large amount around.
Quote: MrVFile bankruptcy BEFORE the marker is turned over to the DA for criminal prosecution.
Yeah, you're screwed once the DA gets it, but a debtor should be able to discharge the debt if they file Chapter 7 before they are charged with a crime.
Again, filing bankruptcy doesn't absolve you of fraudulently writing a bad check.
Fraud is a criminal matter, bankruptcy is civil
Quote: sc15Again, filing bankruptcy doesn't absolve you of fraudulently writing a bad check.
Fraud is a criminal matter, bankruptcy is civil
I'm not going to argue with you.
see: LVRJ article
Quote: MrVI'm not going to argue with you.
see: LVRJ article
Makes sense.
So the only reason it might save you is because the casino won't bother pressing charges, though they still have the right to.
Quote: sc15Both are inconvenient compared to credit. I never know where I'm going to play when I'm in vegas, so I have credit accounts everywhere and those are available whenever I need it on a whim. Cash is a hassle and dangerous to carry a large amount around.
I have never had any problems. I sleep good and it is mine. I lose, there is nothing to pay back. I win, it is mine, thanks no markers please, give me my cash. Strapped and please sign it. Take to another casino and deposit. Takes less time than repaying markers and signing and re-signing, etc. Whatever your comfortable with, but its like auto loans also. I don't do it. I pay for what I have. I don't have to pay anything at the end of the month except for utilities and insurances, less worry and no pressure. I don't play unless I pay. I don't ride unless I own it. It's cleaner and better for me anyways. Some don't see it that way and a lot don't live like that.
Quote: Baccaratfrom79I have never had any problems. I sleep good and it is mine. I lose, there is nothing to pay back. I win, it is mine, thanks no markers please, give me my cash. Strapped and please sign it. Take to another casino and deposit. Takes less time than repaying markers and signing and re-signing, etc. Whatever your comfortable with, but its like auto loans also. I don't do it. I pay for what I have. I don't have to pay anything at the end of the month except for utilities and insurances, less worry and no pressure. I don't play unless I pay. I don't ride unless I own it. It's cleaner and better for me anyways. Some don't see it that way and a lot don't live like that.
Well I treat casino credit like how you're supposed to. As a convenience (which it is, very much so). Any time I sign a marker I have the cash in a box somewhere to cover it. I almost always win so I just give the chips back when I'm done playing and pick up the slip of paper.
Markers are only a problem for people if they're dumb enough to sign one they can't afford to pay.
Quote: sc15
Markers are only a problem for people if they're dumb enough to sign one they can't afford to pay.
It takes two to tango. Casino's give credit to high risk patrons all the time. It is also my understanding that said markers aren't checks...they are promissory notes at best and as such, can't be used to charge someone with issuing a bad check. The consideration isn't immediate and often as many of you know, the casino agrees to hold the marker for a week or month, making it again an account, not a bad check. Government authorities aren't in the business of collecting the bad debts of casino's.
Quote: sc15and they did no additional due diligence to make sure that I had the money to pay it (if they did they would've rejected it since the account I gave them doesn't have much money in it).
I was once, fifteen or so years ago, with a friend at the Trump Castle in AC. He asked for a marker as had "credit" with said casino. They asked him to see the credit department where they advised him he had an outstanding marker unpaid in the Bahamas. The casino in the Bahamas was in no way related to the Trump outfit. So your idea there is no due diligence may be in error. This was over a decade ago. I'm sure it's more up to date and in fact, exercised with more diligence these days with the invention of the internet etc.. I doubt you could go around Las Vegas and run up debts are various casino's without them knowing about it, especially but not limited to you doing it and cashing out the chips vs. losing. These aren't complete idiots running said establishments.
Quote: NokTangIt takes two to tango. Casino's give credit to high risk patrons all the time. It is also my understanding that said markers aren't checks...they are promissory notes at best and as such, can't be used to charge someone with issuing a bad check. The consideration isn't immediate and often as many of you know, the casino agrees to hold the marker for a week or month, making it again an account, not a bad check. Government authorities aren't in the business of collecting the bad debts of casino's.
In 49 states, this is true.
In nevada, a marker is the equivalent of a check, and the government authorities are in big business collecting bad debts of casinos.
The DA's office gets 10% of bad debts collected as a fee to "offset the costs" of the DA's office.
Quote: NokTangI was once, fifteen or so years ago, with a friend at the Trump Castle in AC. He asked for a marker as had "credit" with said casino. They asked him to see the credit department where they advised him he had an outstanding marker unpaid in the Bahamas. The casino in the Bahamas was in no way related to the Trump outfit. So your idea there is no due diligence may be in error. This was over a decade ago. I'm sure it's more up to date and in fact, exercised with more diligence these days with the invention of the internet etc.. I doubt you could go around Las Vegas and run up debts are various casino's without them knowing about it, especially but not limited to you doing it and cashing out the chips vs. losing. These aren't complete idiots running said establishments.
Yes, if you stiff a casino they report to central credit and every other casino will know about it. Despite that, I've heard of stories of people being granted credit even though they've defaulted on a marker to another casino. The fact that most of the time marker money never leaves the building, makes lousy high risk loans worthwhile.
What I'm saying is, after the initial check, there's very little, if any due diligence. I've personally received (and still have) credit lines in excess of my bank account balance tied to the credit line. I have the cash to pay those lines, but the casino has no way of knowing that. Every time I lose my credit line at a place, the casino without fail gives me more when I ask for it.
Quote: sc15In 49 states, this is true.
In nevada, a marker is the equivalent of a check, and the government authorities are in big business collecting bad debts of casinos.
The DA's office gets 10% of bad debts collected as a fee to "offset the costs" of the DA's office.
I won't argue with you. It's a matter for the courts and home field has its advantages. For the government to issue threats of criminal prosecution if you don't pay your casino debts seems a bit out of place and I will maintain that if the party, said casino, agreed to hold the check for any period of time it would become a debt as consideration no longer immediate(if it ever was due to chips not being cash or goods or services). Laws change so I guess I'm out of the loop.
Quote: rudeboyoiFine example of corporatism at work here. Corporations (the casinos in this instance) and government working hand in hand. If you realize that's how this country operates it's not a far stretch to see this country is fascist. Throw in a heavy military presence and some propaganda promoting national pride you have fascism.
Not to get off topic, but would you consider the police "heavy" government presence? Seeing them shoot that homeless man in L.A. the other day got me thinking twice about moving back. Five officers can't control one homeless man so shoot him to death.
Quote: NokTangIt takes two to tango. Casino's give credit to high risk patrons all the time. It is also my understanding that said markers aren't checks...they are promissory notes at best and as such, can't be used to charge someone with issuing a bad check. The consideration isn't immediate and often as many of you know, the casino agrees to hold the marker for a week or month, making it again an account, not a bad check. Government authorities aren't in the business of collecting the bad debts of casino's.
Think again. Google the District Attorney's office in LV and read. If you don't do markers skip it, if you and don't pay, read. Simple. It is a crime and they do prosecute and extradite. They started that a few years ago. Period.
Quote: NokTangNot to get off topic, but would you consider the police "heavy" government presence? Seeing them shoot that homeless man in L.A. the other day got me thinking twice about moving back. Five officers can't control one homeless man so shoot him to death.
Absolutely. Especially now that they have military grade weaponry at their disposal. The NYPD is the 7th largest army in the world. Then there's also the TSA, DHS, NSA, FBI, CIA, etc. Those federal agencies would be akin to the SS of Nazi germany. Originally the SS were the police of their government but then were brought into performing military operations.
Quote: sc15Yes, if you stiff a casino they report to central credit and every other casino will know about it. Despite that, I've heard of stories of people being granted credit even though they've defaulted on a marker to another casino. The fact that most of the time marker money never leaves the building, makes lousy high risk loans worthwhile.
What I'm saying is, after the initial check, there's very little, if any due diligence. I've personally received (and still have) credit lines in excess of my bank account balance tied to the credit line. I have the cash to pay those lines, but the casino has no way of knowing that. Every time I lose my credit line at a place, the casino without fail gives me more when I ask for it.
Good points. The part about the money never leaving i.e. lost vs passing the chips to a friend or somehow cashing them yourself at the cage seems key. I wonder if such antics are noted on the central credit report/file.
I specifically recall Harvey's in Lake Tahoe sending me a letter again, many years ago, revoking my credit line as I had closed the account it was tied to. I had not informed them but they must have done a routine check/update. I had no trip planned etc. to trigger said update.
Your credit report is also available in real time so in the case you outline, they know you are credit worthy when increasing your credit line. I would assume they do a quick update and govern their decision based upon on what they see. All of this takes seconds, not even 60 seconds, these days.
Quote: sc15
Markers are only a problem for people if they're dumb enough to sign one they can't afford to pay.
People get into problems all the time. I used to have a large repossession agency in NJ/NYC/LI, 15 guys with 9 trucks. The days of instant finance 89 to 94ish. Finance and can't pay or insure. We did thousands of vehicles a month. They don't do that much any longer the same as what the housing markets were doing in South Florida and Southern Cali/NV, etc., prior to 2008. The no doc loans. You might not get into trouble but a lot do.
Myself, if I cant pay I rather not play, casino, cars, housing, etc. I can always jerk around the utilities in a pinch. Cash is king.
Quote: Baccaratfrom79Think again. Google the District Attorney's office in LV and read. If you don't do markers skip it, if you and don't pay, read. Simple. It is a crime and they do prosecute and extradite. They started that a few years ago. Period.
They extradite you from another state?
In any event, if the person simply doesn't have the money, said exercise would seem fruitless and other than teaching him/her a lesson and hoping the word gets out. I guess it has as you are repeating it here. I personally have no intention of defrauding any casinos but when a person gets drunk etc. it seems he/she might be the victim, not the criminal. The victim of casino credit being granted when he/she isn't of capacity to make rational decisions in addition to said casino knowing the person isn't credit worthy.
Quote: NokTangThey extradite you from another state?
In any event, if the person simply doesn't have the money, said exercise would seem fruitless and other than teaching him/her a lesson and hoping the word gets out. I guess it has as you are repeating it here. I personally have no intention of defrauding any casinos but when a person gets drunk etc. it seems he/she might be the victim, not the criminal. The victim of casino credit being granted when he/she isn't of capacity to make rational decisions in addition to said casino knowing the person isn't credit worthy.
Your round of thinking also applies to bars serving drinks. It has been challenged and won and lost in criminal and civil courts of law on behalf of a defendant. Myself (meaning me-myself and I) rather not have handcuffs on sitting in jail waiting to tell a judge I didn't mean to do it. Whether casino credit, drunk driving, bank robbery or rape. So you know what, I don't take casino credit, I don't get drunk and drive, I don't rob banks and I don't rape women. I also don't let the dog I don't own any longer poop on someone's lawn or walk down the street without a leash cause it is against town code.
Quote: Baccaratfrom79Whether casino credit, drunk driving, bank robbery or rape..
Where we seem to differ is I don't equate casino credit to the other criminal acts you so gracefully outline.
Cheers. Headed to Starbucks for a coffee and to start the day's activities which don't include anything outlined above but do unfortunately involve one criminal action, that of getting a massage. Sorry, I should say two since I'm also taking a drug which requires a prescription and I don't have same....
Quote: NokTangWhere we seem to differ is I don't equate casino credit to the other criminal acts you so gracefully outline.
Cheers. Headed to Starbucks for a coffee and to start the day's activities which don't include anything outlined above but do unfortunately involve one criminal action, that of getting a massage. Sorry, I should say two since I'm also taking a drug which requires a prescription and I don't have same....
Making a point, unrelated but then again very possible to get arrested for DUI in Las Vegas and when they run your license the warrants pop up for the bad checks from the high limit rooms you and your team ran for a number of years. Then you sit in jail waiting to explain the judge how the casino twisted your arm to make you sign the credit markers so you can play and lose. The girl in the car got paranoid and yelled raped but then you tried to explain the judge how she was actually the massage therapist but didn't have a happy ending license and those funny little pills the cops found just happened to be illegal also. Hope your little poodle in the back seat has tags cause if not that is another violation as well.
Somehow I think this is illegal.Quote: sc15I'm asking this because of how loose casino credit is, and how easy it is to get into debt you can't actually afford to pay off (so it's not just an instance of someone refusing to pay because they don't want to).
I personally have over a million in credit spread throughout las vegas (lines from 20 - 150K). I DON'T have that much money. If I were to go and lose my line of credit at every place I have it in vegas, I'd be broke. I also have lines of credit at individual properties that exceed the balance of the bank account that I gave them when applying for the credit. The increases were through a host, and the decisions were made based off my play, and they did no additional due diligence to make sure that I had the money to pay it (if they did they would've rejected it since the account I gave them doesn't have much money in it). I have also had additional credit given when I lost my line of credit, and it was given immediately (like, in 10 - 15 minutes. They rush to quickly do the paperwork so they can get me back playing). Obviously no due diligence is done during this.
With this "let the player lose first, worry about collecting later" practice, how much of markers drawn never get paid back?
Personally I don't care and i'm not judging.
They went after guys for this type of stuff before.
Quote: AxelWolfSomehow I think this is illegal.
Personally I don't care and i'm not judging.
They went after guys for this type of stuff before.
What's illegal? Getting credit lines exceeding my bank account balance? Or even more money than I have?
It's certainly not illegal. It's only becomes illegal if I start signing markers I don't intend on paying back. I didn't get the credit lines to stiff casinos on markers, I got em because I play at a lot of different places and it's nice to have it everywhere.
Technically by the letter of the law, you're writing a bad check if you sign a marker and don't have funds available in your bank account for it to be cashed immediately, but they have to give you a chance to pay it back before any DA is going to look at it.
sory perhaps I confused lines of credit with markers. I thought you had a million in markers spread around.Quote: sc15What's illegal? Getting credit lines exceeding my bank account balance? Or even more money than I have?
It's certainly not illegal. It's only becomes illegal if I start signing markers I don't intend on paying back. I didn't get the credit lines to stiff casinos on markers, I got em because I play at a lot of different places and it's nice to have it everywhere.
Technically by the letter of the law, you're writing a bad check if you sign a marker and don't have funds available in your bank account for it to be cashed immediately, but they have to give you a chance to pay it back before any DA is going to look at it.
Quote: AxelWolfsory perhaps I confused lines of credit with markers. I thought you had a million in markers spread around.
lol, wouldn't be much of an APer if I'm being prosecuted for being unable to pay gambling debts.
Quote: sc15I'm asking this because of how loose casino credit is, and how easy it is to get into debt you can't actually afford to pay off (so it's not just an instance of someone refusing to pay because they don't want to).
There used to be a casino in Reno wherein there was no credit department at all. The rule was bring what you can afford to lose then go home. The owner felt it saved him money since he had no collections charges, but other casinos only had minor losses on credit.
The "gold standard" at the time was the Sears Card, the hardest one to obtain and the one with the best collection record. All casinos in Vegas had better collection records than Sears did. Its not just that non payment of a marker is a crime and the DA acts as their collection agency. It had alot to do with "recognition"... something akin to Benny Binion greeting you by name. A marker meant "you've arrived, your marker is good in this town. It was something a man would protect at all costs.
Quote: FleaStiffThere used to be a casino in Reno wherein there was no credit department at all. The rule was bring what you can afford to lose then go home. The owner felt it saved him money since he had no collections charges, but other casinos only had minor losses on credit.
The "gold standard" at the time was the Sears Card, the hardest one to obtain and the one with the best collection record. All casinos in Vegas had better collection records than Sears did. Its not just that non payment of a marker is a crime and the DA acts as their collection agency. It had alot to do with "recognition"... something akin to Benny Binion greeting you by name. A marker meant "you've arrived, your marker is good in this town. It was something a man would protect at all costs.
Well, it's not just that, MOST people treat markers as they're supposed to, as a way to gamble w/o having to wire money up front, or bring tons of cash. It's the people who get in over their head and can't afford to pay that don't pay. Can't pay what you don't have.
Isn't it beautiful how the casinos , most recently CZR, can file backruptcy after they have borrowed tens and hundreds of millions and not have to pay their debts back. But if you have an unpaid marker with them, it is almost impossible to have it absolved.
Quote: sc15Well, it's not just that, MOST people treat markers as they're supposed to, as a way to gamble w/o having to wire money up front, or bring tons of cash. It's the people who get in over their head and can't afford to pay that don't pay. Can't pay what you don't have.
It is not just casino markers (check cashing these days) it is that way in many things, housing, boats, cars, credit lines. Many many lead to disaster, tough times and stress, broken marriages and relationships, family problems.
Quote: FleaStiffThere used to be------------------------------------------------------------ It had alot to do with "recognition"...
But wasn't/isn't that true of a lot of things looking back? Morals, values, upbringing, non-internet and electronic instant days, etc.??
Quote: thezoneDo not take a marker out if you cannot pay it back....PERIOD! Nevada has zero tolerance for unpaid markers. Yes, they will give you several attempts to pay it back, however, if you do not pay it back within a reasonable time frame, they will put a warrant out for your arrest and you will be put in jail until it is paid in full.
Well that's just NOT true. If someone can't pay they are not going to spend the rest of their life in prison. They will be put on a payment plan and if they're a bust out on SSI or minimum wage they will pay nothing.
Perhaps, but when Vegas Baby was still just "Las Vegas" it was still "Sin City" and people who went there to gamble had money and character. If you were busted, you carried your own bags down rather than stiff the bell hop. Your "marker" meant something. When "She's in Reno" meant six weeks of residency for a divorce the casinos severely curtailed the use of markers.Quote: Baccaratfrom79But wasn't/isn't that true of a lot of things looking back? Morals, values, upbringing, non-internet and electronic instant days, etc.??
Sure, you can say honor and personal integrity have deteriorated. And a "clean hit" has become "spray and pray" and gambling is everywhere and Benny Binion is at the great Chilli Bowl in the Sky. But in a way markers are still something most gamblers are proud to have. And the collection rates are still high, though for somewhat different reasons.
Now...I made payment arrangements w the casino but they can do it for 18 months. I couldn't cover the 1800 a month so I forgot about it till the cops ran my name at a traffic stop. If u don't want to pay the money u can do the time. They offered me 60 days n theyD close the case I said fk no.
I could have went to trial and I think beaten the case. I wasnt guilty of fraud. I always paid my markers for years. But I also thought the jury will comprised of locals and maybe id lose. But I know I owed the money and paid it off little by little.
How many people actually end up paying them i don't know but when they throw u in jail it's a wake up call. They don't fk around in vegas. I saw a NFL player in jail for not paying 100k marker. The judge wouldn't let him out till he paid it all.
Quote: DonkeySlayer88The marker is a check. If you don't pay it back you're GUILTY of check fraud. You aren't accused of it, you're guilty of it and the DA puts out a warrant for your arrest. They dragged me in from San Diego, so they will haul u In from anywhere. The bail will be 10 times the amount of the marker. Mine was only 25k but that's a 250000 bail plus the 10% for the DA so bail was 276k.
Now...I made payment arrangements w the casino but they can do it for 18 months. I couldn't cover the 1800 a month so I forgot about it till the cops ran my name at a traffic stop. If u don't want to pay the money u can do the time. They offered me 60 days n theyD close the case I said fuck no.
I could have went to trial and I think beaten the case. I wasnt guilty of fraud. I always paid my markers for years. But I also thought the jury will comprised of locals and maybe id lose. But I know I owed the money and paid it off little by little.
How many people actually end up paying them i don't know but when they throw u in jail it's a wake up call. They don't fk around in vegas. I saw a NFL player in jail for not paying 100k marker. The judge wouldn't let him out till he paid it all.
I'm confused, did you pay the marker back or not?
