speedycrap
speedycrap
Joined: Oct 13, 2013
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December 10th, 2014 at 7:20:46 AM permalink
Quote: Zcore13

Pretty much.
.

ZCore13


I really do not want to get involved in this kind of conversation. But reading the news today, I will put into my 2 cents.
We human beings have progressed into a civilized society. We are far from the rule of jungle. We set up laws to protect everyone. I mean everyone , not the selected one.
"We torture them, they will torture us."
"I am against torture because I dont want to see our captured American soldiers tortured. "
I am not American. So I see this from a distance. You can wrap the act of torture in many ways but torture is torture.
There are other ways of extracting information.
If we fall back into the ancient way of doing things, this will be a really sad day
Twirdman
Twirdman
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December 10th, 2014 at 7:35:40 AM permalink
Quote: Boz

Shouldn't any post that links "Think Progress" immediately be discredited?



Its a good thing they not only put the source of their article the Senate report on torture but even put the page number of every claim they made sop that you could check everything they said. Here is the senate report itself http://www.intelligence.senate.gov/study2014/sscistudy1.pdf . So while yes Thinkprogress is a biased source and that bias can and does show through you cannot dismiss reality itself.
petroglyph
petroglyph
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December 10th, 2014 at 7:38:17 AM permalink
Quote: Boz

I can't help but wonder if you opinion is shaded by the ways it was abused in your country in the past. It was used on regular citizens and others that were not bad people. But when people fly planes into buildings, all bets are off in my opinion.



Do you really just not "get it", or do you refuse to?

When you refer to the people that fly planes into buildings does it not seem at least a little strange that fifteen of the eighteen hijackers were Saudi nationals as was OSB himself? We extreme rendition'd Afghans on tips from payed informants, some still imprisoned and went to war with Iraq and still no investigation as to the upper echelons of the Saudi family's part in this, really?

These "not bad people" that you refer to in Zuga's country are somehow more innocent then the million Iraqi's or 200k Syrians, or tens of thousands of Libyan's or a million Iranians [under the Shaw]? None of which had anything to do with the bldgs, none. All blowed to hell, dead, killed and maimed from "intelligence gathered". The wedding party's in Afghanistan are droned and the opium protected but you are waving some patriotic flag?

Think about it, we are responsible for killing over a million people that had nothing to do with the buildings, where is the rationality in that? Bush flew 140 of OSB's family out of this country when our airspace was shut down, without questioning any of them. It's ludicrous.

We are not going to be able to bomb people into loving us, or torture enough to make the world fear us. What I "can't help but wonder is how people still can't understand why we are creating all these "frenemies".
petroglyph
petroglyph
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December 10th, 2014 at 7:42:02 AM permalink
Quote: Twirdman

you cannot dismiss reality itself.

I beg to differ with you
Gandler
Gandler
Joined: Jan 27, 2014
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December 10th, 2014 at 2:19:26 PM permalink
Quote: petroglyph


These "not bad people" that you refer to in Zuga's country are somehow more innocent then the million Iraqi's or 200k Syrians, or tens of thousands of Libyan's or a million Iranians [under the Shaw]? None of which had anything to do with the bldgs, none. All blowed to hell, dead, killed and maimed from "intelligence gathered". The wedding party's in Afghanistan are droned and the opium protected but you are waving some patriotic flag?


Opium is protected to help the local economy. It is their main cash crop. If we destroyed it the farmers would be even poorer.

Quote:

Think about it, we are responsible for killing over a million people that had nothing to do with the buildings, where is the rationality in that? Bush flew 140 of OSB's family out of this country when our airspace was shut down, without questioning any of them. It's ludicrous.


Well it depends, there was a lot more to the operations in the Middle East than 9/11 even if that was the catalyst. For example Bill Clinton was pressured to take out Saddam by the Senate during his term as was Bush, but Bush did not want to do it until 9/11 and then he felt obligated to.

And the reason OSB family is well received is because they are rich and influential. They have no connections with their son . They have not been in touch with him for many years. But they own well off companies in the middle east, so yes they are good contacts, just because one of their sons went crazy does not mean we should condemn the whole family...

Quote:

We are not going to be able to bomb people into loving us, or torture enough to make the world fear us. What I "can't help but wonder is how people still can't understand why we are creating all these "frenemies".



I don't think that there is anyone disputing this. However both of those are sometimes needed in certain circumstances. And we don't torture to make anyone fear us, again its an information gathering technique that has been used a handful of times in extreme circumstances under Presidential approval (and not just Bush...).

If you want to see sadistic torture look at Saddams torture chambers... Or any of ISIS camps...
"Whatever is my right as a man is also the right of another; and it becomes my duty to guarantee as well as to possess. -Thomas Paine
beachbumbabs
Administrator
beachbumbabs
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December 10th, 2014 at 2:36:49 PM permalink
There are shades of grey in almost all politics. This is not one of them. Torture is torture.

Incarceration is an accepted practice separate from that. Providing nutrition to prisoners is part of that. Feeding tubes administered involuntarily are probably necessarily anal insertions, but if the objective is to not allow the prisoner to starve themselves to death while incarcerated, then it's not torture. I'm assuming there is evidence that the prisoner was not voluntarily eating enough to survive. If it was arbitrarily administered without such documentation, it probably also crosses the line into torture.

There's a reason the Geneva Conventions were drawn up, which was to delineate between responsible care of enemy combatants and unacceptable practices. Our patriotism, our wounds, and our motives in contravening them, none of them supercede what we agreed to in signing them. I would not be surprised if we get pulled into The Hague on violations charges.
If the House lost every hand, they wouldn't deal the game.
EvenBob
EvenBob
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December 10th, 2014 at 3:46:42 PM permalink
Quote: beachbumbabs

none of them supercede what we agreed to in signing them..



This guy disagrees with you.

"It's not enough to succeed, your friends must fail." Gore Vidal
Zcore13
Zcore13
Joined: Nov 30, 2009
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December 10th, 2014 at 3:49:55 PM permalink
One question could be are terrorists who murder thousands of innocent people during peace time enemy combatants? I say no. They are foreign murdering terrorists that should receive very little to know rights.

ZCore13
I am an employee of a Casino. All the personal opinions I post are my own and do not represent the opinions of the Casino or Tribe that I work for.
terapined
terapined
Joined: Dec 1, 2012
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December 10th, 2014 at 3:52:03 PM permalink
Quote: EvenBob

This guy disagrees with you.



Yea, lets set policy by taking lessons from a total fantasy on TV.
"Everybody's bragging and drinking that wine, I can tell the Queen of Diamonds by the way she shines, Come to Daddy on an inside straight, I got no chance of losing this time" -Grateful Dead- "Loser"
terapined
terapined
Joined: Dec 1, 2012
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December 10th, 2014 at 3:59:54 PM permalink
Quote: Zcore13

One question could be are terrorists who murder thousands of innocent people during peace time enemy combatants. I say no. They are foreign murdering terrorists that should receive very little to know rights.

ZCore13



How do you know that those the military tortured are terrorists.
That's why I want to see a trial. I want to see the evidence.
Maybe the evidence is weak or does not exist.
I trust nobody, especially our incompetent military.
Who killed Tillman? The American military killed Tillman.
Lied to the family when they knew it was American soldiers that killed this hero.
The military is full of people that rape American service females.
The incompetent military cant even find these people that have committed crimes against our soldiers.
Lets see the evidence. That's the American way.
"Everybody's bragging and drinking that wine, I can tell the Queen of Diamonds by the way she shines, Come to Daddy on an inside straight, I got no chance of losing this time" -Grateful Dead- "Loser"

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