rxwine
rxwine
Joined: Feb 28, 2010
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December 12th, 2014 at 3:54:08 PM permalink
Quote: Gandler

But my point is most people are totally OK with the execution of SS without trial, yet when known terrorists who have done worst things than the majority of the average SS Officer have done, and are held and treated a little bit harshly people act like America is going crazy.



I'm sure the soldiers who pulled Saddam out of his spider hole could have shot him on the spot. People would expect a story about how Saddam flinched, had a gun in his hand. Bin Laden's case was probably iffy, but they were in a short fire fight before that moment, so there was certainly doubt about the danger.

But, if you actually can capture the worst people in the world, you give them a trial. Civilized world anyway.
Quasimodo? Does that name ring a bell?
terapined
terapined
Joined: Dec 1, 2012
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December 12th, 2014 at 4:11:49 PM permalink
Quote: EvenBob

Oops, sorry, another dies during questioning.
What do you think, Lee is going to admit to
such a thing?



True, but don't you think its not a good idea to accuse a major celebrity of executing human beings just because he would never admit to it.
That's pretty serious, executing humans.
Before we go there on this board, I think its important to have a source regarding this.

I think its important to have a trial so surviving victims can testify so there is a permanent record of the atrocities.
Giving surviving victims the right to confront is more important then a quick death in the countryside.

Israel tried this execution thing. The executed Moroccan waiter in Norway July 1973. The guy was simply returning home from a movie with his pregnant wife.
"Everybody's bragging and drinking that wine, I can tell the Queen of Diamonds by the way she shines, Come to Daddy on an inside straight, I got no chance of losing this time" -Grateful Dead- "Loser"
Gandler
Gandler
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December 12th, 2014 at 4:23:48 PM permalink
Quote: terapined

True, but don't you think its not a good idea to accuse a major celebrity of executing human beings just because he would never admit to it.
That's pretty serious, executing humans.
Before we go there on this board, I think its important to have a source regarding this.

I think its important to have a trial so surviving victims can testify so there is a permanent record of the atrocities.
Giving surviving victims the right to confront is more important then a quick death in the countryside.

Israel tried this execution thing. The executed Moroccan waiter in Norway July 1973. The guy was simply returning home from a movie with his pregnant wife.



Sorry I should have worded my post better I am not accusing him of personally being the executer, but without a doubt he worked with the squads.

In one interview when he asked about what he did in that department his reply was "Can you keep a secret?" The guy said said yes and he said "So can I".
Its hard to find a lot of videos of him talking of the War, he never talks in depth about it (perhaps there is a reason).

(I'm still looking for a youtube version of the video, don't worry I did not forget). Its hard to find clips from random documentaries that most people don't watch.

But even if he was the direct executioner (which again, I never alleged), that is not a point of disdain but of respect in my view. You have to be pretty hardcore to hunt down guerilla Nazis in the forests and mountains with just a few men and covertly take care of the issue.

As for Israel, I have no clue about this Morocco business.
But they did execute Nazis without a trial, they are one of the few countries to admit to sending their Special Ops. groups to South America to execute, this is well documented and they are crtizied. Eichman was one of the top targets they took down in South America in the mid 60s I believe, and in my view he certainly deserved it. If the local government refuses to cooperate, what else are you going to do? Hit squad seems like the only option.
"Whatever is my right as a man is also the right of another; and it becomes my duty to guarantee as well as to possess. -Thomas Paine
EvenBob
EvenBob
Joined: Jul 18, 2010
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December 12th, 2014 at 4:36:57 PM permalink
I was a kid in the 50's, people who
weren't there have no idea how much
hated the Nazi's were. The death
camps were unknown to the public
until 1945 and it traumatized the
civilized world. The size and scope of
them were unreal, they could have
drawn and quartered Nazi's in the
courtyard and we were fine with it.
"It's not enough to succeed, your friends must fail." Gore Vidal
Gandler
Gandler
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December 12th, 2014 at 4:45:45 PM permalink
Quote: terapined

True, but don't you think its not a good idea to accuse a major celebrity of executing human beings just because he would never admit to it.
That's pretty serious, executing humans.
Before we go there on this board, I think its important to have a source regarding this.

I think its important to have a trial so surviving victims can testify so there is a permanent record of the atrocities.
Giving surviving victims the right to confront is more important then a quick death in the countryside.

Israel tried this execution thing. The executed Moroccan waiter in Norway July 1973. The guy was simply returning home from a movie with his pregnant wife.



Christopher Lee Biography
(Caution Link contains some profane language)
- I found this link from google, it is far from an academic site, and it certainly exaggerates for effect. But based on what I know of his biography the hard facts are legit, if you don't mind colorful language, its actually a pretty entertaining read.

"I've seen many men die right in front of me - so many in fact that I've become almost hardened to it. Having seen the worst that human beings can do to each other, the results of torture, mutilation and seeing someone blown to pieces by a bomb, you develop a kind of shell. But you had to. You had to. Otherwise we would never have won." -Christopher Lee

"After working with the LRDP, Lee was assigned to the Special Operations Executive better known as Winston Churchill's Ministry of Ungentlemanly Warfare a group that did *** like lead a twelve-man assault that destroyed the German top secret nuclear weapons development facility in Norway and assist brave Eastern European partisans and rebels sabotage Nazi supply lines to prevent them from bringing reinforcements up to fight the Soviets" -Quote from Article.

"His service records are sealed and Lee doesn't talk much about his service but we do know that by the time he retired as a Flight Lieutenant in 1945 he'd been personally decorated for battlefield bravery by the Czech, Yugoslavian, English, and Polish governments and was good friends with Josip Broz Tito, so draw your own conclusions. " -Quotes from above article

"Lee also belongs to three stuntman unions, does all of his own stunts, once busted his face smashing head-first through an actual plate glass window for a scene, injured himself falling into an open grave while portraying Dracula, and once had his hand slashed open during a drunken sword fight with Errol Flynn." -Above Article

Now of course this does not prove anything about his personal actions. But we know he is physically fit, agile, experienced with weapons especially blades, was a member of various Intelligence and Special Operations groups and his WWII records are still sealed to this date.

Like I said I never would say he personally pulled the trigger on anyone as there is no way anyone except for him can prove that (until his records are made public, which I assume won't be until long after his death if ever), but he was certainly involved a lot with people who did, not just formal armies, look at the various rebel groups he fought with against he Nazis, do you think they followed the Geneva Conventions?
"Whatever is my right as a man is also the right of another; and it becomes my duty to guarantee as well as to possess. -Thomas Paine
terapined
terapined
Joined: Dec 1, 2012
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December 12th, 2014 at 5:11:13 PM permalink
Going off topic here but what long thread doesn't from time to time.

Christopher Lee is a total badass, in a good way.
Most actors are all about pretend.
Christopher Lee is the real deal. He walked the walk.
Thanks, love him in the Rings and other movies.
Never knew this about him.
Wow, I am impressed.
Thanks Gandler.
"Everybody's bragging and drinking that wine, I can tell the Queen of Diamonds by the way she shines, Come to Daddy on an inside straight, I got no chance of losing this time" -Grateful Dead- "Loser"
SOOPOO
SOOPOO
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December 12th, 2014 at 5:22:24 PM permalink
Having read every post in this thread.... My take is simple..... Torture is wrong..... I see NO exceptions.... The only difficulty I would have is defining torture....
I do not want my country to condone or use torture....
In my opinion it is irrelevant whether or not torture 'works' in obtaining valuable information.....
petroglyph
petroglyph
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December 12th, 2014 at 5:35:57 PM permalink
Paul Craig Roberts on Torture:http://www.paulcraigroberts.org/2014/12/11/cia-torture-report/

"the torture program shows that no one in the US and European governments who knew of the program and participated in torture has an ounce of humanity, integrity, compassion, and morality. They are evil people, and the ones who inflicted the torture enjoyed the pain and suffering that they inflicted on others."

"President Reagan appointed Dr. Roberts Assistant Secretary of the Treasury for Economic Policy and he was confirmed in office by the U.S. Senate. From 1975 to 1978, Dr. Roberts served on the congressional staff where he drafted the Kemp-Roth bill"
Gandler
Gandler
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December 12th, 2014 at 5:37:16 PM permalink
Quote: terapined

Going off topic here but what long thread doesn't from time to time.

Christopher Lee is a total badass, in a good way.
Most actors are all about pretend.
Christopher Lee is the real deal. He walked the walk.
Thanks, love him in the Rings and other movies.
Never knew this about him.
Wow, I am impressed.
Thanks Gandler.



(Since we are doing a Christopher Lee detour)
He spends his 90s doing Metal music He started realsing Heavy Metal versions of classic Christmas songs in 2012 and has every Christmas since.

Christopher Lee 2014 Christmas Metal

Christopher Lee WWII clip
Its hard to find good speeches from him on WWII since he mostly only mentions small snindpets here and there in random obscure documentaries that only a few nerds like me have probably ever seen. But this is the best clip I could find here on youtube. I have had a mancrush on him since I was a young kid lol.

Ian Fleming (the writer/creator of James Bond, also a WWII vet) was his cousin, so in some Ian Fleming documentaries and Bond documentries he mentions some intelligence and WWII type stuff. But its impossible to find any single place where he talks a lot about it, just random thoughts here and there in various old documentaries.
"Whatever is my right as a man is also the right of another; and it becomes my duty to guarantee as well as to possess. -Thomas Paine
Calder
Calder
Joined: Mar 26, 2010
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December 12th, 2014 at 10:23:57 PM permalink
Maybe I missed it, but I am a little surprised that no one has mentioned the written response to the Senate report from three former CIA directors and three former deputy directors, printed in the Wall Street Journal on Dec. 10.

I'd link, but WSJ is a paid site; the app won't even allow a cut-and-paste. They disagree with the majority's report, and it's an illuminating read.

Perhaps most telling:

"How did the committee report get these things so wrong? Astonishingly, the staff avoided interviewing any of us who had been involved in establishing or running the program, the first time a supposedly comprehensive Senate Select Committee on Intelligence study has been carried out in this way."

Edit: I'll try the link to the main site, dunno if a paid subscription is required to view --

http://www.wsj.com/articles/cia-interrogations-saved-lives-1418142644

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