Gambling Trivia

Quote: Greasyjohn

Did you get your ticket?

Yes; I did very well at school, had a great career, was certified in 5 towers, 1 non-radar approach, 2 radar approaches, did some headquarters time, some great temporary assignments, trained many other folks, many accomplishments, worked as a high-paid independent contractor for several years after retirement. Lots of great stories to tell. But this is a gambling forum; I mostly save those for my aviation/controller forums (as much as anything cuz you're probably the only one interested here. lol...).

A checkride ought to be like a skirt. Short enough to be interesting, but still be long enough to cover everything.

Quote: Greasyjohn

A checkride ought to be like a skirt. Short enough to be interesting, but still be long enough to cover everything.

Hehehe...yeah, I only ever failed one. Portland, OR, (PDX) ground control. It snowed the night before, about 8 inches accumulation. (It NEVER snows in Portland, at least not accumulating at sea level). SEATAC closed and dozens of their air carriers diverted to us. The snow conga line had no idea what to do, where they were on the field, or how to talk on the radio. Half the taxiways were closed. All the gates were full and about a dozen air carriers parked on the crosswind runway trying to wait it out. Most of the signs and all the pavement markings buried.

And me, Ms. Clueless, plugs in with Mr. SarcasmSupervisor in the override for a checkride. I still have nightmares; he finally unplugged me (the ultimate insult) and threw me out of the tower. It was a complete disaster. But I went downstairs, got my act together, and came up and worked it the rest of the day, got signed off the next day.

Quote: beachbumbabs

I dealt blackjack for a year 1983-4, SD pitch game face down. We did not have readers. Procedure was to lay the edge of your left hand (holding the deck) on the felt along the left side of the hand, rotate dealer's hand about 30 degrees clockwise, place last 2 fingers of right hand on top of far edge of hand near the corner, lean down, and pull up close left corner with thumb, not bending the card enough to crimp it. Cards were Bee's Club Specials (I still have my practice deck).

Thanks for the report on non-reader procedure.

Back to trivia... were they using a large index face back in the day? (Possibly helpful chart on page 2 - I expect that Tech Art and No Peek markings were not available at the time - but Standard index, "Enhanced Image", and "Jumbo Index" may have been available.)

Did they have you use no cut card (Joker?), a single cut card, or two cut cards?

Dieter, I've been reading about Scanjack, No Peek and MaxTime readers, different markings on aces and 10s and such. It is very interesting and something I didn't pay too much attention to in the past. I'm curious as to how you happen to know so much on the subject. Are you in the business?

Quote: beachbumbabs

Yes; I did very well at school, had a great career, was certified in 5 towers, 1 non-radar approach, 2 radar approaches, did some headquarters time, some great temporary assignments, trained many other folks, many accomplishments, worked as a high-paid independent contractor for several years after retirement. Lots of great stories to tell. But this is a gambling forum; I mostly save those for my aviation/controller forums (as much as anything cuz you're probably the only one interested here. lol...).

No he isn't. I would love to hear some of your stories. If you have them posted somewhere please direct me to them.

I was a BJ dealer downtown Las Vegas for about a month in 1990. I quit because on a Thursday I saw that they were doing ATC tests on Saturday and they wouldn't give me the day off. I took the test, scored a 92 I believe. They told me that was pretty good but most likely not good enough. Never heard back.

Quote: DRich

No he isn't. I would love to hear some of your stories. If you have them posted somewhere please direct me to them.

I was a BJ dealer downtown Las Vegas for about a month in 1990. I quit because on a Thursday I saw that they were doing ATC tests on Saturday and they wouldn't give me the day off. I took the test, scored a 92 I believe. They told me that was pretty good but most likely not good enough. Never heard back.

Yeah, back then, it was region by region what your score would bring for job offers, but they didn't tell the applicants that. I applied to the Northwest Mountain Region (WA, OR, MT, ID, CO, WY, UT) (mine was a 97.2) and it took over a year to get hired. The Southern Region in 1990 (GA, FL, SC, NC, MS, AL) would have picked you up with that score, as would the Alaskan (they were both accepting down to low 80's); Western Pacific, (CA,HI,NV,AZ,NM, Pacific Islands) you were probably just below their cutoff if that's where you put in for. Sorry it didn't work out; they were pretty bad at telling anybody anything about their hiring back then.

In fact, it was printed right on my paperwork that if you called Seattle and bothered them (NWM) with hiring questions, your application would go to the bottom of the pile. So I worked and waited, did follow-ups when asked (physical, security, mental health, backgrounding, etc). Got offered a permanent position with Citibank and a marriage proposal the same week in December 1985, so said, "what the hell" and called. They said, "we've been trying to find you for a week: your class starts in 10 days! (Dec. 27th)". Riggghhtt. 3 of us in the house and an answering machine and nobody's heard from them. Whatever.

Quote: Greasyjohn

Are you in the business?

I am not in the business*. I am an enthusiast.

That said, I enthusiastically absorbed as much information as I could about playing cards. The first time I sat down at a blackjack table (one of the free "come, learn to play table games from an experienced dealer!" deals hosted daily by a neighborhood place), they went through all of the "stuff" that happens - how to buy in, how to color up when leaving, how to signal for a hit, how to stand, splits, doubles, and ... insurance.

The nice dealer ("AJ", her nametag said) explained how they'd check for a dealer blackjack when there was an Ace (or ten) up. I saw the light go on on the device, and asked how it worked. She said it read the markings on the corners of the cards, and then pointed out the markings on the cards in question (black bars, Bee 92, enhanced image no peek face design). She explained to me how the ten value cards had the bars in one pair of corners, and the aces in the opposite pair of corners, and how the marks would be in the same corners if the cards were back to back and the hand was a natural, and then that the light would show red if the device detected a mark, and would show green if the device did not detect a mark.

Later, I learned that the light type devices sometimes malfunction, showing a false positive (red light when it should be green). (This is often advantageous to the player when it happens.)

Later yet, I went to a different casino, and saw they used a different card scheme - the aces had 4 index marks, instead of just two.

Being fascinated by playing cards, I started looking into the face designs on offer by USPCC (and later GPI), and found out about some of the various styles, and started reading things that my curiosity led me to.

Also, watching the Vegas Aces dealer training videos was quite informative. I'm not personally a fan of Heather's narration, but I found value in the substance and wasn't worried about the style of the presentation. (The suggestion of practicing shuffling on an ironing board was quite good.)

I have found it useful to know everything I can about the manner and environment in which the game is conducted.


*Some might consider me "in the business", but it's from the curved side of the table, not the flat side of the table.

Quote: beachbumbabs

Yeah, back then, it was region by region what your score would bring for job offers, but they didn't tell the applicants that. I applied to the Northwest Mountain Region (WA, OR, MT, ID, CO, WY, UT) (mine was a 97.2) and it took over a year to get hired. The Southern Region in 1990 (GA, FL, SC, NC, MS, AL) would have picked you up with that score, as would the Alaskan (they were both accepting down to low 80's); Western Pacific, (CA,HI,NV,AZ,NM, Pacific Islands) you were probably just below their cutoff if that's where you put in for. Sorry it didn't work out; they were pretty bad at telling anybody anything about their hiring back then.

In fact, it was printed right on my paperwork that if you called Seattle and bothered them (NWM) with hiring questions, your application would go to the bottom of the pile. So I worked and waited, did follow-ups when asked (physical, security, mental health, backgrounding, etc). Got offered a permanent position with Citibank and a marriage proposal the same week in December 1985, so said, "what the hell" and called. They said, "we've been trying to find you for a week: your class starts in 10 days! (Dec. 27th)". Riggghhtt. 3 of us in the house and an answering machine and nobody's heard from them. Whatever.

It seems to be all random now, as far as I know. You can pick a preference in locations but it's all up in the air about where you will really go. Some of my college classmates got SEA ARTCC because they networked and all that, or at Boeing field. They don't really accommodate your location but a few got lucky. The level 10-12's from what I heard last was that only vets with preference and military ATC experience get to start there, something about ZNY washing out a ton of newbies.

I took the ATSAT and felt I did decent, although I couldn't for the life of my figure out the analogies portion, so I just winged it lol. Unfortunately as soon as I graduated with a CTI they were talking about bringing back PUBNATs so I got discouraged in pursuing it as a career.

It seems to be an incredibly tough job. My friend was a go getter, and was pretty much a shoe-in for the job but got washed out at the academy for barely failing a check out. It also seems to be a type of job where you "have it" or don't, and cannot coast through until retirement.

Like they say about the military, it's the toughest job you'll ever love. Once you learned how (which takes 6mo-1yr for a tower, 2-5 yrs for a radar position), it's hard to beat the adrenalin rush of a busy scope in the middle of the storm, knowing everything you do and say matters.

I should mention, they are taking applications again. You must be hired prior to your 31st birthday. Which I think includes you? Certainly there are quite a few guys on here who can meet that age requirement, and seem to have the smarts to do the job. If people (you) are interested, I encourage you to apply. The sky's the limit on what you can accomplish, where you can go, and who you'll meet along the way.

Quote: beachbumbabs

If people (you) are interested, I encourage you to apply. The sky's the limit on what you can accomplish, where you can go, and who you'll meet along the way.

Babs, it is so refreshing to hear a "government employee" be so positive and enthusiastic about their job. Thank you.

A question I have wondered about but don't know the answer to:

When the Last Frontier was built on what would become known as The Strip in 1942, they obtained the 40-foot mahogany bar that graced the Arizona Club in downtown's Block 16. What ever happened to it when the New Frontier was closed in 2007? For that matter, the Last Frontier became the New Frontier, then the Frontier, then the New Frontier. Was the mahogany bar kept through all these renovations and reincarnations?

What finally peeked my interest to ask this question is seeing the current post on Main Street Station. I vaguely thought the bar had ended up there, but no one there that I talked to knew anything about it.

By the way, the Flamingo is the oldest surviving hotel/casino on the strip with the demise of the New Frontier. The El Rancho Vegas, built in 1941, burnt down in 1960. (The El Rancho, on the site of the Silverbird, formerly the Thunderbird, is not to be confused with the El Rancho Vegas.)

Another bit of Vegas history. Pretty sure about this one.

Minsky's Follies opened 1/10/57 at the Dunes. But it wasn't the first show in Vegas featuring topless showgirls as is often mentioned. That distinction would come a year later with the Lido De Paris show at the Stardust. In Minsky's Follies the showgirls wore pasties. Fluff Lecoque mentioned this historical minutia in a program I saw on TV a while back. (She's 91 now and retired in 2012.)

Not gambling trivia, but gambling related:

Boulder Dam wasn't built in Boulder Canyon but in Black Canyon. During the planning phase it was discovered that Boulder Canyon wasn't suitable because the rock wasn't stable. The name, studies, engineering reports and such had referred to Boulder Canyon for so long that officials overlooked the discrepancy when the present site, Black Canyon was chosen. Boulder City was founded as a city to house dam workers.

Boulder Dam was renamed Hoover Dam in 1947, over a decade after the dam's completion. This was in honor of President Hoover who was president during the early phase of the dam's construction. His administration was linked with The Great Depression and so his name was too controversial at the time the dam's completion for consideration. So why wasn't Boulder City renamed Hoover City when the dam was renamed? Or even Black City? (Doesn't have much of a ring to it.)

Boulder City is the only city in Nevada that doesn't permit gambling. (I guess the Hacienda is outside city limits.)

Quote: Greasyjohn

Boulder City is the only city in Nevada that doesn't permit gambling.

Well, that may be true, because of the use of the word "city", but Boulder City is not the only Nevada community that doesn't permit gambling.

Panaca, NV prohibits both gambling and the sale of alcohol. It is my understanding that this town was founded by Mormons and is still predominantly a Mormon community.

Quote: Doc

Well, that may be true, because of the use of the word "city", but Boulder City is not the only Nevada community that doesn't permit gambling.

Panaca, NV prohibits both gambling and the sale of alcohol. It is my understanding that this town was founded by Mormons and is still predominantly a Mormon community.

I didn't know that, Doc. But I do have an article about the pronunciation of communities in Nevada somewhere. Looking through my collection of What's On, Las Vegas Magazine, Showbiz. Oh, here it is, Nevada Magazine, December 2003, pg 42. Panaca is pronounced pa-NACK-ah. Genoa is pronounced Juh-NO-ah (not like Columbus' birthplace). And Nevada is like Nuh-VAA-dah, not Nuh-VAH-dah (think of dad).

Quote: Greasyjohn

Not gambling trivia, but gambling related:

Boulder City is the only city in Nevada that doesn't permit gambling. (I guess the Hacienda is outside city limits.)

If we're allowed to go on tangents, here's something not exactly gambling related, but Boulder City related (and in a way it's "gaming"):

Boulder City was the winner of the first season of the competition series Almost Anything Goes (the USA version of Britain's It's a Knockout; I think the title was changed because it doesn't make much sense here, as "knockout tournament" is the British term for "single elimination"), and also won the one-off event against the second (and final) season's winner and a team of Hollywood celebrities. Note that the USA version was limited to cities of 20,000 people or smaller. One of these years, I might just take the HDX to Boulder City and see if anybody knows where the trophy is.

Quote: Greasyjohn

Not gambling trivia, but gambling related:

Boulder Dam wasn't built in Boulder Canyon but in Black Canyon. During the planning phase it was discovered that Boulder Canyon wasn't suitable because the rock wasn't stable. The name, studies, engineering reports and such had referred to Boulder Canyon for so long that officials overlooked the discrepancy when the present site, Black Canyon was chosen. Boulder City was founded as a city to house dam workers.

The name Boulder Dam was renamed Hoover Dam in 1947, over a decade after the dam's completion. This was in honor of President Hoover who was president during the early phase of the dam's construction. His administration was linked with The Great Depression and so his name was too controversial at the time the dam's completion for consideration. So why wasn't Boulder City renamed Hoover City when the dam was renamed? Or even Black City? (Doesn't have much of a ring to it.)

Boulder City is the only city in Nevada that doesn't permit gambling. (I guess the Hacienda is outside city limits.)

Yeah, the only thing they named in honor of Hoover at the time were the homeless camps which became known as Hoovervilles.

Quote: mickeycrimm

Yeah, the only thing they named in honor of Hoover at the time were the homeless camps which became known as Hoovervilles.

That name came to mind when I thought about the possible name change for Boulder City (not that I would have suggested it, of course). Hoover was the second oldest-lived president behind John Adams. That was until Adams was eclipsed by Reagan and then by Ford. Jimmy Carter could take the honor, still.

Quote: Greasyjohn

That name came to mind when I thought about the possible name change for Boulder City (not that I would have suggested it, of course). Hoover was the second oldest-lived president behind John Adams. That was until Adams was eclipsed by Reagan and then by Ford. Jimmy Carter could take the honor, still.

When the market crashed in 29 stocks had only lost 20% of their value. It would be four long years before the market bottomed out. All the while Hoover did nothing. He didn't believe a POTUS should interfere with the economy.

Quote: Greasyjohn

That name came to mind when I thought about the possible name change for Boulder City (not that I would have suggested it, of course). Hoover was the second oldest-lived president behind John Adams. That was until Adams was eclipsed by Reagan and then by Ford. Jimmy Carter could take the honor, still.

So I'm guessing you are thinking Bush 41 is going to kick the bucket soon? Carter is definitely in better health though...

Quote: tringlomane

So I'm guessing you are thinking Bush 41 is going to kick the bucket soon? Carter is definitely in better health though...

You're right, I just overlooked H. W., even though he's about 3 1/2 months older than Carter. Since Carter was president so long ago--I fixated on him. But yes, Bush's health may be more frail.

Quote: Greasyjohn

You're right, I just overlooked H. W., even though he's about 3 1/2 months older than Carter. Since Carter was president so long ago--I fixated on him. But yes, Bush's health may be more frail.

Pretty sure Carter eclipsed whoever (Hoover?) last year as the longest lived past the end of his Presidency. (Almost 34 years since he left office; wow.) But I think you're right about GHW Bush being the oldest alive ever.

Quote: mickeycrimm

When the market crashed in 29 stocks had only lost 20% of their value. It would be four long years before the market bottomed out. All the while Hoover did nothing. He didn't believe a POTUS should interfere with the economy.

This is not true; Hoover was a Keynesian. He forced businesses to keep wages artificially high (nominally to increase demand and stimulate the economy), "I have instituted … that wages and therefore earning power shall not be reduced and that a special effort shall be made to expand construction … a very large degree of individual suffering and unemployment has been prevented."

He did a lot more, too! See below. Sorry to be hard on you Mickey but I really hate it when people rewrite history to claim that the failures of government were the failures of the free market.

http://www.gilderlehrman.org/history-by-era/new-deal/resources/herbert-hoover-great-depression-and-new-deal-1931%E2%80%931933

"He founded government agencies, encouraged labor harmony, supported local aid for public works, fostered cooperation between government and business in order to stabilize prices, and struggled to balance the budget."

Quote: beachbumbabs

Pretty sure Carter eclipsed whoever (Hoover?) last year as the longest lived past the end of his Presidency. (Almost 34 years since he left office; wow.) But I think you're right about GHW Bush being the oldest alive ever.

BBB, I said Ford was the oldest ever. Both he and Reagan lived to be 93. GHWB and Carter are both 90. And I always liked the trivia question: Who was the youngest president? Because it's not Kennedy. Kennedy was the youngest elected president.

The Scare of '64

Because of the publication of Beat The Dealer in 1962, casinos in Las Vegas, in an effort to thwart card counting, changed the rules of the game of 21 in April,1964. The specific rule changes forbade the splitting of aces and restricted doubling down to 11 only. These two rule changes reduced the player's advantage by about 1 percent. The gambling public disliked the new rules and play at the blackjack tables fell off. In fact there was a ripple affect and play fell off at all table games. Casino employees who depended on tips complained about the slowdown. Then casinos, one by one quietly scuttled the new rules and within two or three weeks the old rules had been reinstated everywhere. Casinos felt it would be better to have their business back and contend with the system players. You can read all about this on page 128 of the 1966 edition of Beat The Dealer.

What is interesting is that the rule changes made in 1964 were very dramatic--not being able to split aces, and restricting doubling down to 11. They reduced the EV by about 1%. Contrast that with today. Blackjack paying 6:5 has a -1.39% EV when compared to paying 3:2. This 6:5 rule is more insidious for the player than the 1964 changes but it's negativity is more disguised.

Talking about the history of blackjack, I wonder who came up with the 6:5 rule change idea? This was brilliant. You're paying more than even-money for a blackjack (just less than before). What was the first casino to enact this rule change and when?

Quote: Greasyjohn

BBB, I said Ford was the oldest ever. Both he and Reagan lived to be 93. GHWB and Carter are both 90. And I always liked the trivia question: Who was the youngest president? Because it's not Kennedy. Kennedy was the youngest elected president.

Sorry, misread what you wrote before. It's all pretty interesting, esp how so many of them live beyond normal lifespans for their age group. If they don't get killed in office, anyway. Wonder if they just get really good health care or there's something more to it.

Quote: beachbumbabs

Quote: Greasyjohn

BBB, I said Ford was the oldest ever. Both he and Reagan lived to be 93. GHWB and Carter are both 90. And I always liked the trivia question: Who was the youngest president? Because it's not Kennedy. Kennedy was the youngest elected president.

Sorry, misread what you wrote before. It's all pretty interesting, esp how so many of them live beyond normal lifespans for their age group. If they don't get killed in office, anyway. Wonder if they just get really good health care or there's something more to it.

Almost one in ten have been assassinated, and several more have had attempts on their life. But the Secret Service provides massively more protection now. When Lincoln went to the Ford Theater to watch Our American Cousin, I'm pretty sure that there was only one soldier-bodyguard accompanying Lincoln and his wife on their horse drawn coach. And there was only one guard on duty outside the President's box (he was on the second story floor somewhere but not by the door to the box itself. That gave easy access to Booth). Incredible by modern standards.

And yes, they get the most unbelievable health care in the best facilities.

In the game if blackjack when would it occur that a player's ace must be counted as one and not have the option of being counted as eleven, (and even if it were counted as eleven the total of the players hand would be less than 22)?

Quote: Greasyjohn

In the game if blackjack when would it occur that a player's ace must be counted as one and not have the option of being counted as eleven, (and even if it were counted as eleven the total of the players hand would be less than 22)?

D9-11 only.

Quote: Ibeatyouraces

D9-11 only.

Yes! And it happened to Kewlj once.

There's a post, I think I read it over at GF, where a player brought a case against a casino where he had 8, ace and doubled on his 9, caught a 2, and the house said he had 11 and not 21-- and gaming ruled in the casino's favor.

Here's a link to the post where Kewlj mentioned his episode:

https://wizardofvegas.com/forum/gambling/blackjack/17703-i-cant-remember-how-this-went/#post346847

Quote: Greasyjohn

Yes! And it happened to Kewlj once.

There's a post, I think I read it over at GF, where a player brought a case against a casino where he had 8, ace and doubled on his 9, caught a 2, and the house said he had 11 and not 21-- and gaming ruled in the casino's favor.

There was/is a thread about it here. I side with the casino. Although they should've given the player a break.

Quote: Ibeatyouraces

There was/is a thread about it here. I side with the casino. Although they should've given the player a break.

I don't understand how they justify calling that 11 only. Could you explain, please, since you agree with it? Thanks in advance.

Quote: Ibeatyouraces

There was/is a thread about it here. I side with the casino. Although they should've given the player a break.

Yes, I just posted the link in my OP.

I was thinking about this weird scenario the other day. Although you could only double on hard 9 (in this case--or 10 & 11 too) the casino stated that the ace could not also have its dual role of being counted as an 11. I understand their thinking, but just because it must be treated as a one in order to double I don't see why it couldn't be treated as an eleven when adding the player's total. But, the casino prevailed.

Quote: beachbumbabs

I don't understand how they justify calling that 11 only. Could you explain, please, since you agree with it? Thanks in advance.

He doubled 9 (A, 8). By doubling on this and with the playing rules (D9), the hand cannot be "or 19." Therefore by receiving a 2 on a doubled 9, the hand is only 11.

Quote: Ibeatyouraces

He doubled 9 (A, 8). By doubling on this and with the playing rules (D9), the hand cannot be "or 19." Therefore by receiving a 2 on a doubled 9, the hand is only 11.

Ah, ok. Kind of weird, but I see the logic of the either/or now. Thanks.

IMO, it should be ruled as an 11.....err, rather, I think TECHNICALLY it should be a 21, since an ace can be 1 or 11.....but I have no qualms about the casino and apparently gaming ruling it as an 11. If I double A8 in a D9-11 game, I'd expect the A to not be able to count as 11. Trying to call it a 21, IMO, is taking a shot.

Here is the ruling by Nevada Gaming on this issue.