Thomas
Thomas
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August 29th, 2014 at 11:45:54 PM permalink
Does anyone think PLO is a game where skill is paramount?
The game is the most maddening of all gambling card games in my opinion!
I call it the great equalizer! Who said, "Never give a sucker an even break!"
Whoever it was, certainly didn't play Omaha for a living!!! Of that I'm sure.
One can play the game like a Strativarius, but if the cards
are not smiling on you that day, you'll end up wanting to quit the game forever!
Losing both ends of every proposition , ( made hands and monster draw hands )
will try the patience of most, then having people beat your premium
hands with garbage hands will melt your brain, regardless of how strong you
are emotionally. I find I cannot contend in thiat atmosphere, I believe I have
the necessary skills, but after several thrashings in a game where I haven't
made a mistake, I tend to lose my composure a tad. Once this occurs, I'm a goner,
my play rapidly deteriorates and I begin to play personal poker against the administrators
of my beatings. I'm well aware this is not a winning tactic and will generally get up
once this happens. I said generally, except on those rare occasions where everything
happens perfectly, in the exact order needed to entice me to continue to play even though
I know full well in most cases, it's a lost cause. The next day is when I'm really pissed at myself,
shoulda quit, shouldn't have paid that guy off, all the shoulda, woulda, & coulda's you relive after
a monster dump the night before! Anyone ever been in this zip code?
I need a little cheese to go with my whine!
Sorry, but if you play Omaha, especially for a living, I know this has happened to YOU
Misery loves company
Buzzard
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August 29th, 2014 at 11:56:09 PM permalink
" , I believe I have
the necessary skills "


Evidently your belief is not fact based !
Shed not for her the bitter tear Nor give the heart to vain regret Tis but the casket that lies here, The gem that filled it Sparkles yet
Thomas
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August 30th, 2014 at 12:13:30 AM permalink
My new friend, the hapless critic, along with his usual pick it apart observations. Glad you dropped in,
since your absence from response to your seed catalogue question, I wasn't sure you were available
for further nit pickings.
Believe as in belief, not as fact is fact, old sport!
Buzzard
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August 30th, 2014 at 12:17:31 AM permalink
" The next day is when I'm really pissed at myself,
shoulda quit, shouldn't have paid that guy off, all the shoulda, woulda, & coulda's you relive after
a monster dump the night before! "

Nah, you beat me to it.
Shed not for her the bitter tear Nor give the heart to vain regret Tis but the casket that lies here, The gem that filled it Sparkles yet
AxiomOfChoice
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August 30th, 2014 at 12:22:32 AM permalink
I don't play poker at that level, but I do know pros (real pros, not 1-2 or 2-5) and they all claim that the edge of a good player over a bad player is higher in PLO than in hold'em. The problem is that the fish don't want to play it because they know that they have a better chance in hold'em (or, at least, they know that they win more often)
24Bingo
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August 30th, 2014 at 12:27:09 AM permalink
I don't play a whole lot of Omaha, and virtually no PLO, but practically everyone I've ever heard compare PLO to NL has agreed that PLO is the more skill-based game (and likewise for real Omaha and Hold 'Em).
The trick to poker is learning not to beat yourself up for your mistakes too much, and certainly not too little, but just the right amount.
Thomas
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August 30th, 2014 at 12:29:09 AM permalink
Tis true, I'm my harshest critic, I beat myself up after I err on the big side.
It's part of my DNA, my history, my basic make-up, it's a FACT, I will dump a big figure
at least once every 5 years. Hope I live long enough to do it again!
Buzzard
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August 30th, 2014 at 12:29:41 AM permalink
Thomas, you are not alone !

http://www.bluff.com/magazine/warning-plo-variance-may-cause-insanity-13963/
Shed not for her the bitter tear Nor give the heart to vain regret Tis but the casket that lies here, The gem that filled it Sparkles yet
Thomas
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August 30th, 2014 at 1:24:25 AM permalink
Nice article I enjoyed it.
Actually I employ the record keeping portion of the advice and have similarities with the review process it recommends.
I was familiar with Einstein's quote on insanity and yes, I suffer from it occasionally playing Omaha.
Thank you, that was nice of you.
GWAE
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August 30th, 2014 at 4:53:59 AM permalink
PLO is to poker as TDB is to VP
Expect the worst and you will never be disappointed. I AM NOT PART OF GWAE RADIO SHOW
GWAE
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August 30th, 2014 at 4:57:23 AM permalink
Quote: 24Bingo

I don't play a whole lot of Omaha, and virtually no PLO, but practically everyone I've ever heard compare PLO to NL has agreed that PLO is the more skill-based game (and likewise for real Omaha and Hold 'Em).



I would half agree with this. If you are at a table with 9 people who know how to play the game then yes it takes more skill. The problem with this game is generally you have half the table who have no idea how to play. You will get sucked out on more since these people will hold garbage. Generally this is a good thing in poker but when more than half the people do it, it makes it very tough.

I have played a lot of poker in my time and I have always said that I would prefer to play with 8 good players over 4 good and 4 bad or even 8 bad. Sometimes it is just to tough to beat luck, but my skills are good enough where I could beat good players regularly.
Expect the worst and you will never be disappointed. I AM NOT PART OF GWAE RADIO SHOW
Buzzard
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August 30th, 2014 at 8:20:32 AM permalink
" Thank you, that was nice of you. " I will ignore this insult and hope the moderators do the same.
Shed not for her the bitter tear Nor give the heart to vain regret Tis but the casket that lies here, The gem that filled it Sparkles yet
beachbumbabs
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August 30th, 2014 at 8:47:46 AM permalink
Thomas,

It's best not to take Buzz seriously. Ever. He's the Don Rickles of WoV.

I have been playing PLO hi/lo for real money online the last month or so. Fascinating, as Spock would say. Just a murderous game. I tend to do very well for a long time, then all of a sudden get a ridiculous run of 2nd best that wipes me out in a couple hands. The last game I played, I had back-to-back aces paired, making a FH Aces over both hands, flopping the set each time. The first lost to 4OAK of my pair. The very next lost to a pup SF when the 5D rivered and I was already all-in - they had stuck with the 2-3 diamonds and 2 middle cards, even through an Ace + pair flop. I went from first by a long way to out on just those two hands. In both cases, the other party pushing looked like a hi/lo chop. Silly me. You get hands like that, you start to hate the game.
If the House lost every hand, they wouldn't deal the game.
vendman1
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August 30th, 2014 at 9:00:45 AM permalink
Quote: beachbumbabs

Thomas,

It's best not to take Buzz seriously. Ever. He's the Don Rickles of WoV.

I have been playing PLO hi/lo for real money online the last month or so. Fascinating, as Spock would say. Just a murderous game. I tend to do very well for a long time, then all of a sudden get a ridiculous run of 2nd best that wipes me out in a couple hands. The last game I played, I had back-to-back aces paired, making a FH Aces over both hands, flopping the set each time. The first lost to 4OAK of my pair. The very next lost to a pup SF when the 5D rivered and I was already all-in - they had stuck with the 2-3 diamonds and 2 middle cards, even through an Ace + pair flop. I went from first by a long way to out on just those two hands. In both cases, the other party pushing looked like a hi/lo chop. Silly me. You get hands like that, you start to hate the game.



This is my experience with PLO as well. It's OK for a "fun" home game but has ridiculous wild swings...um I guess that would be lady variance rearing her ugly head again...that can make the game hard to take.

I have a somewhat related question. It's been a fundamental belief of mine ever since i started taking poker semi-seriously; that any limit game favors a more skilled player over a no-limit game. The reason being, that the longer a more skilled player plays against a less skilled player the greater the odds of his skill coming to play in the game. Example: I could play one hand of No Limit with Phil Ivey (or whomever) and I'd have a 50% chance of winning that particular hand. But over time and hundreds of hands, his superior skill and experience would grind me down most likely. Therefore since pot limit games tend to last longer, than no limit games(where even the least skilled player can catch a monster)...it's better for skilled players to play limit as opposed to no limit. I've always just assumed the above to be true but have never attempted any serious examination of the issue...am I correct?... Discuss.
GWAE
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August 30th, 2014 at 9:11:29 AM permalink
The problem with your thinking is that in low limit games the rake is unbeatable.
Expect the worst and you will never be disappointed. I AM NOT PART OF GWAE RADIO SHOW
vendman1
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August 30th, 2014 at 9:20:47 AM permalink
OK fair enough....I was thinking more of a home game or tourney situation..though almost all tourneys are no-limit so I suppose it's a moot point.
Rigondeaux
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August 30th, 2014 at 10:00:40 AM permalink
Thomas, one thing that leapt at me was that you said you made no mistakes for a session. The best players in the world make mistakes every session. There's always many mistakes to be found in your play.

Limit vs. Big Bet is a debate as old as time, or at least hold em. You have a wider range of options in NL, but face a greater quantity of decisions in limit. From what I understand, computers can play limit at an elite level but not yet no limit. Also, learning a basic, winning strategy at the mid to low stakes is probably easier in limit. I also think there's more psychological depth in NL.

Ultimately, though, if you can beat me at NL just as well as I can beat you at limit, I don't see how you can say anything other than, "you are more skilled at NL and I am more skilled at limit."
100xOdds
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August 30th, 2014 at 11:20:43 AM permalink
lol.. plo is easy

pot draws (monster or not).
pot scare cards flop, turn, and river.

agression, aggression, aggression...

have deep pockets to reload
Craps is paradise (Pair of dice). Lets hear it for the SpeedCount Mathletes :)
Thomas
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August 30th, 2014 at 11:30:02 AM permalink
Rigondeaux,
What I meant was I entered pots pre-flop correctly ( premium starters ) , played the hands post flop correctly, bet the correct amounts each time or called correctly
with the proper pot odds, and layed the hands down correctly when they were beat. Bluffing never was a possibility with the crew I was playing against, they were
mostly calling stations so it would have been futile. I don't play a lot of hands, I deal with a huge rake in the games I play and fading the rake is hard enough, let alone
playing hands that will trap me, instead of the other way around. I enter with two and three way hands that tend to either flop the nuts with a free roll or a monster big draw,
At the nuts of course. Then I try to shape the pot accordingly. Sometimes that's not possible, especially when there are several loose cannons full of testosterone
firing it up every pot. Volatility is huge because they make you gamble and you better make the lead stand up through the river or hit your draw! Or else you're stuck an
amount not easily recovered. That's basically what I meant by playing mistake free and getting my butt handed to me. All I really meant I guess was to gripe and whine
a little and express what narrow shoulders I have when it comes to defeat in the wonderful game of PLO
Thomas
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August 30th, 2014 at 11:47:23 AM permalink
Well said GWAE, I believe you have hit the nail on the proverbial head with your comments.
I used to play the 10/20 limit Holden at the Commerce several years back, almost unbeatable!!
Not because of my play, but because of the players. A minimum of 6 see the flop and if any flop
any pair, or a possible pair sometimes, they are immovable to the river! Only way to beat a game
like that is show down winners! It's a showdown game with to many players going to the river.
You are right, Very tough to beat!
Ibeatyouraces
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August 30th, 2014 at 11:49:20 AM permalink
deleted
DUHHIIIIIIIII HEARD THAT!
AxiomOfChoice
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August 30th, 2014 at 12:10:19 PM permalink
Quote: Thomas

Well said GWAE, I believe you have hit the nail on the proverbial head with your comments.
I used to play the 10/20 limit Holden at the Commerce several years back, almost unbeatable!!
Not because of my play, but because of the players. A minimum of 6 see the flop and if any flop
any pair, or a possible pair sometimes, they are immovable to the river! Only way to beat a game
like that is show down winners! It's a showdown game with to many players going to the river.
You are right, Very tough to beat!



Please don't take this the wrong way, but, if you can't beat a game like this, you are not a very good player. Except for games where everyone folds way, way too much (which is very rare in limit) these are the most beatable games out there. You are probably too focused on how many pots you win and not how much money you win. Playing big, multi-player pots well is an important skill in limit hold'em, and, if you do it properly, you can make a lot of money in a game like that.
mickeycrimm
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August 30th, 2014 at 12:58:55 PM permalink
My buddy, Al, is a highly knowledgeable PLO player who spends the winter months playing quite a bit of 5-5 and 5-10 PLO. He says the fact that the suckers can suck out is what keeps them coming back to the game.
"Quit trying your luck and start trying your skill." Mickey Crimm
mickeycrimm
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August 30th, 2014 at 1:12:04 PM permalink
Quote: AxiomOfChoice

Please don't take this the wrong way, but, if you can't beat a game like this, you are not a very good player. Except for games where everyone folds way, way too much (which is very rare in limit) these are the most beatable games out there. You are probably too focused on how many pots you win and not how much money you win. Playing big, multi-player pots well is an important skill in limit hold'em, and, if you do it properly, you can make a lot of money in a game like that.



My favorite low limit poker game was at the Rainbow in Wendover. It was a 2-5 holdem game, 1-2 blinds, with a $50 Kill to 5-10. And on most days the game was as loose as a goose. No need to get creative in a game like that. Don't try to bluff the calling stations. You have to show down the best hand to win the pot.

The thing I loved about the game was once it went into the kill it might stay in the kill for 25 or thirty hands in a row. I was only paying $3 a lap to look at cards in what was essentially a 5-10 game.
"Quit trying your luck and start trying your skill." Mickey Crimm
24Bingo
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August 30th, 2014 at 1:30:35 PM permalink
Quote: AxiomOfChoice

Please don't take this the wrong way, but, if you can't beat a game like this, you are not a very good player. Except for games where everyone folds way, way too much (which is very rare in limit) these are the most beatable games out there. You are probably too focused on how many pots you win and not how much money you win. Playing big, multi-player pots well is an important skill in limit hold'em, and, if you do it properly, you can make a lot of money in a game like that.



Especially at the Commerce - why would I even want to take down a $40 or $60 pot on the flop when the house still take their full 5 and 1? Hell, as I recall, even a steal will cost you 1 and 1 there - that is not a place I want to play with nits, however dumb, certainly not at 10/20.
The trick to poker is learning not to beat yourself up for your mistakes too much, and certainly not too little, but just the right amount.
tringlomane
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August 30th, 2014 at 1:54:31 PM permalink
Quote: AxiomOfChoice

Please don't take this the wrong way, but, if you can't beat a game like this, you are not a very good player. Except for games where everyone folds way, way too much (which is very rare in limit) these are the most beatable games out there. You are probably too focused on how many pots you win and not how much money you win. Playing big, multi-player pots well is an important skill in limit hold'em, and, if you do it properly, you can make a lot of money in a game like that.



Yeah, everything I hear about Commerce is..."softest place on earth". St. Louis on the other hand...grrrrrrrrrrrrrrrrrrrrrrrrrrrrrrrr And yeah, I don't like playing limit omaha8 games unless 60%+ or more are seeing the flop.
Buzzard
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August 30th, 2014 at 3:09:11 PM permalink
" It's best not to take Buzz seriously. Ever. " Well you can take this to the bank. I just wonder about guys who say I can never win at low level limit poker, because the players are so bad ! ROFLMAO
Shed not for her the bitter tear Nor give the heart to vain regret Tis but the casket that lies here, The gem that filled it Sparkles yet
AxiomOfChoice
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August 30th, 2014 at 4:50:24 PM permalink
BTW, I feel that Small Stakes Holdem by Ed Miller is an excellent book for beating these sorts of games (loose limit games). If you understand the concepts in that book you should crush these games.
Buzzard
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August 30th, 2014 at 4:56:10 PM permalink
Did same in Blackhawk. Great Book. Give credit where it is due.


Ed Miller,
Mason Malmuth,
David Sklansky
Shed not for her the bitter tear Nor give the heart to vain regret Tis but the casket that lies here, The gem that filled it Sparkles yet
djatc
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August 30th, 2014 at 5:07:01 PM permalink
Call me a sucker but I never understood the meaning of "kill pots" wtf does it mean?
"Man Babes" #AxelFabulous
AxiomOfChoice
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August 30th, 2014 at 5:09:48 PM permalink
Quote: djatc

Call me a sucker but I never understood the meaning of "kill pots" wtf does it mean?



When someone wins a pot of over a certain size, the next pot is "killed". That means that:

1. The stakes increase, and
2. The winner has to post a blind equal to the new (larger) big blind.

Edit: The stakes increase only once. If the next pot is killed as well, the stakes stay at the same (higher than normal) level. If the pot is not large enough, the stakes drop back down to the initial level.

You might have a 4-8 limit game where the kill pots are 6-12, for example.
24Bingo
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August 30th, 2014 at 6:23:30 PM permalink
In my experience, the kill pots are usually BB-BB rather than BB-2BB. But in the game that brought this into the discussion it was the latter.

Either it's over a certain value, or it's two in a row.
The trick to poker is learning not to beat yourself up for your mistakes too much, and certainly not too little, but just the right amount.
AxiomOfChoice
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August 30th, 2014 at 6:29:27 PM permalink
Quote: 24Bingo

In my experience, the kill pots are usually BB-BB rather than BB-2BB. But in the game that brought this into the discussion it was the latter.

Either it's over a certain value, or it's two in a row.



Oh, right, 2 in a row. I forgot about that. I have not played a kill game in a long time.

The kill games I have played were always two in a row. If you win one pot over a certain size, you get the kill button. If you win the next pot and it is also over a certain size, it's a kill. The games I played were with a "half-kill" (I think it was 6-12 to 9-18, but it has been so long that I really don't remember). I think a "full kill" would double the stakes.

I think, in this case, once it's killed, it stays killed until either the pot isn't big enough, or the person who caused the kill loses a pot.
98Clubs
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August 30th, 2014 at 9:56:34 PM permalink
Thomas: Have you tried PLO-H/L yet? Got quartered yet?
Some people need to reimagine their thinking.
AxelWolf
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August 30th, 2014 at 10:20:01 PM permalink
Quote: Thomas

Does anyone think PLO is a game where skill is paramount?
The game is the most maddening of all gambling card games in my opinion!
I call it the great equalizer! Who said, "Never give a sucker an even break!"
Whoever it was, certainly didn't play Omaha for a living!!! Of that I'm sure.
One can play the game like a Strativarius, but if the cards
are not smiling on you that day, you'll end up wanting to quit the game forever!
Losing both ends of every proposition , ( made hands and monster draw hands )
will try the patience of most, then having people beat your premium
hands with garbage hands will melt your brain, regardless of how strong you
are emotionally. I find I cannot contend in thiat atmosphere, I believe I have
the necessary skills, but after several thrashings in a game where I haven't
made a mistake, I tend to lose my composure a tad. Once this occurs, I'm a goner,
my play rapidly deteriorates and I begin to play personal poker against the administrators
of my beatings. I'm well aware this is not a winning tactic and will generally get up
once this happens. I said generally, except on those rare occasions where everything
happens perfectly, in the exact order needed to entice me to continue to play even though
I know full well in most cases, it's a lost cause. The next day is when I'm really pissed at myself,
shoulda quit, shouldn't have paid that guy off, all the shoulda, woulda, & coulda's you relive after
a monster dump the night before! Anyone ever been in this zip code?
I need a little cheese to go with my whine!
Sorry, but if you play Omaha, especially for a living, I know this has happened to YOU
Misery loves company

Ask Neutrino about this. You will have to track down what name he is using now. No need to look very far.
♪♪Now you swear and kick and beg us That you're not a gamblin' man Then you find you're back in Vegas With a handle in your hand♪♪ Your black cards can make you money So you hide them when you're able In the land of casinos and money You must put them on the table♪♪ You go back Jack do it again roulette wheels turinin' 'round and 'round♪♪ You go back Jack do it again♪♪
Buzzard
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August 30th, 2014 at 11:21:24 PM permalink
WSOP Pot Limit Omaha. 386 entries . A lot more than in 1998 when Phil Helmuth finished 5th. And when he finished 4th in 2000.

His best POT LIMIT OMAHA finish. The other finishes. 7, 8, 10,15,15,16,16.

TUFF F***ING GAME !!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!
Shed not for her the bitter tear Nor give the heart to vain regret Tis but the casket that lies here, The gem that filled it Sparkles yet
djatc
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August 30th, 2014 at 11:44:04 PM permalink
I haven't tried Omaha at all, but as anything with an advantage and variance, you need double what you think you need to be underrolled.
"Man Babes" #AxelFabulous
tringlomane
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August 31st, 2014 at 12:58:02 AM permalink
Quote: AxiomOfChoice

Oh, right, 2 in a row. I forgot about that. I have not played a kill game in a long time.

The kill games I have played were always two in a row. If you win one pot over a certain size, you get the kill button. If you win the next pot and it is also over a certain size, it's a kill. The games I played were with a "half-kill" (I think it was 6-12 to 9-18, but it has been so long that I really don't remember). I think a "full kill" would double the stakes.

I think, in this case, once it's killed, it stays killed until either the pot isn't big enough, or the person who caused the kill loses a pot.



In hi/lo split games (Omaha8, Stud8, etc), a kill is activated when someone "scoops" a pot over a certain size. I think the kill works much better in those type of games.
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